I figure since this is where we buy our guns this forum is as good as any to ask this question:

I think I'm buying a rifle from a fellow forum member, I went and got the money order then went to my FFL to get a copy. They told me they don't give them out anylonger (for fear of someone using it at a gunshow), and that they will mail (or email) it to the FFL that is going to ship me the rifle. I asked what if an individual was mailing me the rifle and the PO wanted to see a copy, he said an individual DOES NOT need a copy and all they need to do is to ship it to an FFL with a photocopy of their driver's licsence.

Is this true???? I don't want to break any laws and I don't want the person shipping me the rifle to break any laws.

As always ... thanx a million <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

George sent you an email. They are making there own policy and can do that. The seller does need to send to a FFL, how he assures that is where the copy comes from. Our only large local dealer operates the same way - FFL to FFL. The drivers license is to properly ID the seller on the paperwork. Some folks don't like to give a copy of there DL for the same basic reasons the shop doesn't want to give out there FFL.
Works both ways except they have all the cards.
Dave

It varies in some states but most states you just have to ship to an FFL so the buyer does paperwork. You don't have to be
an FFL to ship.

I think that's true, but most who sell guns want a copy to insure that where they're sending the gun is indeed an FFL holder. This is mostly true with other FFL holders/businesses. I had a guy ship an AR15 to the FFL holder I use without physical proof of the FFL. he just called my guy and asked for his FFL number. One FFL is all that is needed in the transfer of ownership of a gun. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

george,
one thing i do is write file copy across my ffl and what it is being used for at bottom
fog

If this is done, the copy cannot be used for anything else correct ... might be the leverage I need. I usually deal with the owner but he wasn't there this afternoon. I'll give him a call and see what happens.

on all of my gun purchases an ffl signed in ink had to be sent before the firearm was transfered. I am sending a rifle to fellow campfire member who asked that I send a copy of my FFl or DL, never had to do this before, but if that is what it takes to get the rifle in his hands then I don't mind...............blake

George

Your dealer is correct.......there is no legal requirement for a non-licensed individual to have a copy of the license of the dealer he is shipping to. If you doubt that, try to get a copy of Remington's license when you need to send a rifle back for warranty work....good luck!

You are also NOT required to show a copy of the license to the Post Office.......if they try to force the issue, have them look up the regulations and they will find nothing that requires it.

If the seller is uneasy about shipping to your dealer without a copy of the license, have him look up the dealer on the FFL EZ Check website........all he needs is the dealer's license number and he can confirm that the license is legit......

George,

About 6 months ago, I sold a rifle to a guy and asked him t o get his FFL paperwork to me. His FFL guy stipulated that they did not need to send out their paperwork (seem something about people modifying it or sumthing), but he said he could give me the first 3 or 4 characters and the last 3 or 4 characters of his guy's FFL, and I pull this up from the EZCheck and get the FFL address. I also asked this buyer to give me his FFL address just in case he not screwing me. But it worked that way and I never got his FFL's paperwork, but I printed off the EZCheck and took to the PO with me in case they yanking my chain in the PO.

If that is what the ATF wants, its probably on their website.

valad.

Well Gents I thank you for all your input!! Just got of the phone with the shop's owner and its taken care of. She told me to come on in and she'll give me one, since I spend quite a bit of time there and even some of my moola <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Their reasons are good. I'll talk to the seller soon and see where they stand, if they want the FFL I will get it, if not then that's all good too!

Thanx again!!

As some already said, it's not required, but some sellers are uncomfortable shipping without it. You can always check at gunbroker for an ffl close to you who will accept firearms shipments and give a couple a call to see that they'll give you a copy to send. You can also tell what they charge from GB to se that they don't take advantage of you to receive it. Shouldn't run more than around $20 to $25 usually...

I always get a copy of the FFL when I sell a rifle, even when I do a FTF. That way I can keep good records and show where the rifle went if it ever shows up in a criminal investigation.

I do not want the trail ending at me, with only my word that I sold it. Being able to provide some evidence of where it went gives me a little comfort.

I think that it is in your own best interest to keep a copy of all the documents related to the transaction:

1. The receiving dealer's signed or faxed FFL,
2. A copy of your bill of sale.
3. A copy of the money order and letter that you received from the buyer.
4. The receipt from the shipper.

If you have that documentation on file, I think that any reasonable person will see that you've done your due diligence.

Jeff

We all want to be good citizens, but a lot of this nonsense about FFL's just have us falling into what the anti-gunners want....just more obstacles for the law abiding citizens to have to go through. I talked to a friend of mine, whom just happens to be the local US Postmaster, and he told me that I can send any long gun to any individual right to his door. No FFl holders involved. This man has worked for the USPS for thirty five years... he knows what he is talking about. He also happens to be a firearms enthusiast. In short he would not steer me wrong. So far I have involved FFL holders in my firearms transactions, but only because the people I sold were apprehensive about breaking laws, which they would not have. I think people should educate themselves on this matter. I know there are those anti-gun areas that we all know are off limits to guns or have such strict rules that make it unbearable to all...but that is a whole other story.

I think you might wanna read this. It is only true that you don't need to ship to an FFL if it's within your own state. If it crosses state lines, it has to go to an FFL.

Here's a reference on what gunbroker has to say about Federal laws regarding shipping firearms. If you're still not convinced you can chase down the laws referenced but you cannot ship across state lines without it going to an FFL. Here's the URL to the laws quoted. Might wanna take a look at the section called Shipment by Unlicensed PersonsGunBroker Shipping Info

Thanks for the information. I am going to the post office tomorrow and read the USPS guidelines myself.

Postal Guidelines don't override federal law.......if your postmaster says it's legal to transfer ownership of a firearm across state lines without a receiving FFL, he is just plain wrong.........

From the BATF FAQ:

http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#b1

B. UNLICENSED PERSONS


(B1) To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms
under the GCA? [Back]


A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his
or her state, if the buyer is not prohibited by law from
receiving or possessing a firearm, or to a licensee in any
state. A firearm other than a curio or relic may not be
transferred interstate to a licensed collector. [18 U. S. C
922( a)( 3) and (5), 922( b)( 3), 27 CFR 178.29]

(B3) May an unlicensed person obtain a firearm from an
out-of-state source if the person arranges to obtain the
firearm through a licensed dealer in the
purchaser's own state? [Back]


A person not licensed under the GCA and not prohibited from
acquiring firearms may purchase a firearm from an
out-of-state source and obtain the firearm if an arrangement
is made with a licensed dealer in the purchaser's state of
residence for the purchaser to obtain the firearm from the
dealer. [18 U. S. C 922( a)( 3) and (5), 922( b)( 3), 27 CFR
178.29]


(B8) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm through the U. S.
Postal Service? [Back]


A nonlicensee may mail a shotgun or rifle to a resident of
his or her own state or to a licensee in any state. Handguns
are not mailable. A common or contract carrier must be used
to ship a handgun. A nonlicensee may not transfer any
firearm to a nonlicensed resident of another state. The
Postal Service recommends that longguns be sent by
registered mail and that no marking of any kind which would
indicate the nature of the contents be placed on the outside
of any parcel containing firearms.

(B9) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by carrier? [Back]


A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by carrier to a resident of
his or her own state or to a licensee in any state. A common
or contract carrier must be
used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires
that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a
firearm and prohibits common or contract
carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on
any package indicating that it contains a firearm. [18 U. S.
C. 922( a)( 2)( A) and 922( e), 27 CFR 178.31]

the only thing I cannot mail are handguns ' I ship and or receive at least a rifle a week all legal.I have a C&R liscense and use it to up grade my collection. hand guns ARE mailable through a FFL dealer. long guns can be mailed by anyone to anyone .BUT if the receiver is illegally aquiring the firearm it is the BATF that has the duty to make it right not the USPS. they have no rule on shipping long guns. if you think so show me... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Well your Postmaster is wrong. You cannot just send any long gun to any individual you want to. You can only do that within your own state if there is no specific state law against it. In order to do an out of state transfer, it must be shipped to a valid FFL holder. That is Federal Law. The Feds control interstate transfer of firearms. Your Postmaster should also look it up in the regulations where it states that he is not permitted to give legal information as to whom can or to whom one may ship a firearm too.

I have also received live ammo by US mail and that isnt legal I was old by my Postmaster. I dont think it is against BAFT regs but it is by USPS.

What a nightmare. And you guys laugh at us here in California for being sooooo ridiculous. And the funny thing is that only the honest citizens follow the rules. The criminals here laugh even harder at the laws "we" make since they dont obey the rules. A concept too difficult to understand.
Sorry, my time to vent. Thank God Im going duck hunting this weekend.
maestro

Well, I did'nt get a chance to go to the Post Office today. I am waiting on funds from a fellow who is buying a rifle from me. He wants me to send to an FFL, and I will do so. I do not believe my Post Master is wrong. In fact, he said he would be glad to talk with anyone about it for clarification. All lot of laws come and go, some are passed and supercede older ones, while people still adhere to old laws. I am not trying to be a smart... When I go to the Post Office I will ask him again about all of this. I could have possibly heard him wrong. I don't want to break the law either. Thanks.

I am going to jump on 4570govt band wagon. I have purchased several firearms and was asked to send a FFL to the seller which I always have. I recently sold a gun and I will be doing the shipping this time so I asked the buyer to send me a signed FFL. Wanting to be ready for the transaction before the MO and FFL arrived I went to the post office to see what I needed to do with the FFL, such as bring it in as proof as to where I would be shipping or what. The Post Master that I am familiar with and have known for several years explained to me that I did not need a FFL and I could ship it to the buyers door if I wanted to. He stated that there is no need to bring in the FFL.
Scott

Gonhuntin is correct - BATFE regulates interstate transfer of firearms. USPS is only concerned with their own shipping regulations. Ask the postmaster general if he enforces BATFE regulations, then ask BATFE if they enforce postal regulations...see what I'm getting at?

There are three separate things at work here ... BATFE, USPS, and seller/buyer ...

BATFE requires rifles be shipped TO an FLL from anyone, when crossing state lines, and the receiving FFL is to then register the gun to the buyer

USPS has their own rules, of which I'm no authority, so I'll pass on expounding here ...

seller/buyer can set up whatever rules they wish, within the guidelines of "the law" ...

Combine all three to figure out what is necessary to successfully complete your sale ... you have the liberty to 'adjust' the rules between the buyer and seller, but really have no ability to change the rules/laws in place with the other two ...

You can confirm what your friend has told you, just call the BATF and ask them. Since the BATF is the Federal agency responsible, their answer would be the standard that you would be required to meet.

Jeff

WGM
Not to be too picky, but to make an important point. We do not have a legal gun registry in this country. Obviously it is a de facto registry... but we cannot allow ourselves to stumble down that road willingly!

It will be transfered to the buyer, not registered!
art

When it comes to getting advise on a subject that could potentially cost me thousands of dollars and time in jail, the last place I would ask for advice is on a interent forum. There is a lot of misinformation in this thread that could cause someone to become a felon. If you want to know the correct answer, call or email the BATF office and ask, keep the email or get the persons name you talk to. A clue as to what is the wrong answer, the post office does not have any jurisdiction over the interstate transfer of firearms. BATF does.


From the BATF website FAQ.



Ask your Postmaster friend if he is wrong is he willing to pay lawyer costs, fines, and do the time for you if you get caught?

From Postal Regulations:





Links to the above information:
web page
web page

To put all of this in perspective. The post master will not be the one to be fined or sent to jail if in violation of Federal Law. You will!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! .Call ATF and ask. These posts have some very good and very bad advice.

Having to transfer a firearm via a FFL is hardly the same as a gun registry. None of the transfer data is sent to the BATF, unless specifically requested, until the FFL holder is required to send his/her bound book records to the BATF when the FFL is allowed to lapse. Even then, I doubt that those records are entered into any sort of data base.

Jeff

it was my understanding for a period of time putting those records in a database was exactly what was going on and may still be.NRA took them to task but I do not know what became it(all during Clinton)