How smooth is a bore on a Remington express or say a mossberg compared to a Benelli, Beretta or maybe an older wingmaster ? The reason I’m asking is I’m thinking about finding a fieldmaster youth model.

Beretta and Benelli generally have chrome lined bores. Not gonna get smoother than that.

Easy to polish.

Underlying metal prep determines surface smoothness. Superimposed plating doesn't fill imperfections. Same as with bluing. But curious as to why bore smoothness is a criterion at all?

I have polished several bores to mirror finish. It takes about an hour or so depending on what you are starting with and is easy to do.
The couple of Remington Fieldmasters I have looked at, looked very nice. I would not be afraid of buying one.

I have polished all my "turkey" barrels... it makes a difference in patterns . Very easy... this is how I did it...


https://oldgobbler.com/Forum/index.php?topic=182.0

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Amazing that some win World shotgun Championships at targets from 15 yards out to 60 yards. Shoot thousands of rounds a year and never polish a barrel. Of course they spend time learning how to shoot vs worrying about polishing.

How often does a barrel need polished again before patterns go to hell? Or do they go to hell? How many shots does it take? Can you blame misses on a dirty barrel?

Hilarious!!!!

A pattern never missed a Turkey....Or how big a hole in a pattern would be necessary to not put enough well aimed shot on something the size of a Turkey.

at the end of the trap season i run a Outers full length bore cleaner rod thru my Berretta and Perazzi trap guns probably shoot 5,000 rounds thru these 2 shotguns with no cleaning of the inside of the barrel. never heard of anyone who polished a shotgun barrel ? Remington use to make better shotgun barrels 30 years ago i know my Remington trap TC shotguns have very good barrels on them . remember you get what you pay for. Pete53

"Something the size of a turkey" is not what you should be aiming for; the question should be how big a hole in the pattern would be necessary to not put enough well-aimed shot on something the size of a turkey's head? A patterning session will answer this question for you, as well as any difference between a polished barrel vs. un-polished, different chokes, different shells, etc. At some point downrange, a pattern does miss a turkey; patterning can tell you where that point is.

T-Y-Go, is spot on.

Apples and oranges, probably. Turkey through tight chokes, using latest-greatest non-tox, and I might not be surprised.

After all, when you polish the bore you are increasing relative constriction. See this with refinished guns that have bores lapped to get rid of pits, when the shop fails to address the choke section. A "mod" stamped gun can become a factual full-choke gun. Anyone besides me old enough to have heard of Stan Baker?

Patterns, gaussian (Rayleigh) by definition, can be tighter or more open. The word "better" is subjective and applies only if tighter or more open is what you happen to desire.

So you two are telling me, at some point down range every pattern is the same, and at that range every Turkey’s head would be centered. And the not so great pattern would all have the same lack of head hits. Or that the neck and breast hits don’t count for anything. Believe what you want, but don’t expect the rest of us too.

Or that perfect distance is where all Turkeys will be shot.
Or the Turkey will never move his head at the wrong time!
Or a pattern plate is only a two dimensional image of a three dimensional event? The pattern plate looks like they all arrived at the same time....they didn't.

Addition: And if you want to aim at a Turkeys head, then I won't tell you different. Jelly heads look great for the choke adds. However, the best odds are to aim where his neck joins the body and let a shotgun shell do what it does best. Cover the biggest area of the vitals.

Baker went beyond a polish and into overboring. You have to do more than polish to overbore.

For those looking for perfection in your Turkey gun. Send it to Eyster with your shell of choice. He will send you back a barrel with three chokes. Close-medium-far.

When you are ready to shoot the Turkey, put the right choke in and pull the trigger with complete confidence.

Which is also hilarious..

Your often-noted infatuation with shot strings is amusing. If there was ever a time when it is irrelevant, it is when shooting at a turkey.

You have a point...However, I will tell you this for certain. People who shoot a lot and most of them don't waste time posting of forums, don't worry all that much about what a pattern looks like on paper. They set up the shotgun to fit them and then work on their skills to hit what they are shooting at. I was talking with one of them two days ago. He has won a couple World Championships. And we were talking about clay shooters vs hunters and the often quoted line...He can hit clays, but he sucks at game. He said it just doesn't work that way. Shooters can shoot no matter what the game.

We were shooting targets from close to out to 60 yards....Not once did he ask what choke I had in. Or what it looked like on paper. He did say your initial move was wrong, your insertion was wrong, you didn't look correctly. When those errors were correct the target broke. I suspect it would be even easier with a Turkey standing there. How hard can it be to send a load of shot where enough shot will hit vitals.

Addition: Unless one wants to be cute and brag on Jelly Heads. Which may have its own issues.

Having said all that, I'm not one to obsess over minutiae like polishing barrels, either. But I'm not putting down anyone who does.

Why would any want to shoot a Turkey at 40 yards is getting to the real point. Most of mine have been killed flying after being put up by a Dog. So they were inside 40. And they died to 8's and 7.5 one ounce or less loads. Who would have thunk. The few I've called in were closer to 20-25 which means I don't have to be cute with going for head shots. A few crashed to IC and Mod which was more than adequate. Seems as if the new rage is how far one can brag they killed a Turkey. "Hey I polished the bore, found the best pattern, have a scope on my shotgun and whatever else. Now any Turkey smart enough to stay 40 yards distant is about to find out how dumb they really are. I paced it off....47 yards" Hell why even carry a call? Most times I could sneak up to 40 plus. And I wonder how many spring Birds are called in with that mentality.

And if they happen to be real close, I'll vote for a pattern that hits the Bird from top to bottom. Vitals, broken wings and legs. A jelly head is not any more impressive or dead.

Also a Turkey can take a hit and keep going. How many 40 yard Turkeys took a hit, still had their legs and ran away faster than the best could keep up? I'm not impressed.

However, back to polishing the bore. It is a waste of time in the realm of being a decent shotgun shooter. Or successful Turkey hunter. It's their time, waste it as they please. However, don't expect others who know better not to point it out. Pretty patterns never killed a single Bird.

"I'll vote for a pattern that hits the Bird from top to bottom. Vitals, broken wings and legs. A jelly head is not any more impressive or dead."

Anybody that would say anything that stupid about turkey hunting should post less and read more.

Tell me why…. If it works when they are flying. And had it do the same when they were walking.
I must be lucky. 😂

Did you ever kill a Turkey that didn’t have it’s feet on the ground?

And I’m sure it was an inadvertent omission that you left the first part of the quote out…..the real close qualifier. You wouldn’t have done that on purpose would you?I think you did. 🤣 Or perhaps you never got one in close???? You ever see what a center punch shotgun hit does to a Turkey at around 20 yards?

Yea, I’ll take stupid and consider the source.

I read this thread with interest. A couple thoughts…I’ve shot many thousands of ducks, geese, cranes, doves and quail in the last 50 plus years. I’ve also shot about 40 turkeys in the last 15 years that I started hunting them. One thing I’ve learned is that even though the tool you use is very similar for wing shooting and turkey shooting. The way you use them is very different. Anyone who asks “How could you possibly miss something the size of a turkey?” Probably hasn’t hunted turkeys. That 5 inch circle that represent his head, is a small target at 30 yards and beyond. The tighter the pattern the better! But don’t miss! I learned early that you point a shotgun and aim a rifle. With a turkey gun, you are aiming. I can appreciate anything that will help improve that aim.

Turkey hunters across the nation are in awe of your prowess. You really should write a book and make some videos so that your techniques can be shared with the rest of us amateurs (which I am definitely one of).

You are the only guy I've ever heard of that touts a full choke and #6 shot for doves and IC or Mod with 7.5s or 8s for turkeys, which I'm sure you will rationalize for us shortly. I guess you just "know better."

"Center punch shotgun hit a turkey at 20 yards..."

Please, stop.

Yes, center right under the neck. Feathers will be floating down around the body. If you ever get close to one you should try.

Anyway, you post a lot on shotguns, it shouldn’t be a surprise. Then again maybe not.

Addition: If you decide to quote, it would be appreciated if you don’t cherry pick. 🤣

Thinking on it, shot one close center back as she was running away. Same result. 8’s and she flopped a bit, but gave up.

Reason being, I shoot most of them in the fall, while hunting Grouse. So they are targets of chance. If I was going out specifically for Turkeys, then it would most likybe 5 or 6’s. Using 8’s or 7.5’s is why I don’t shoot unless they are close. And really, I’m no great Turkey hunter, but have found if I decide to hunt them specifically, then it mostly becomes an issue if spending enough time looking. And come evening they most often give away where you should look the next day. Or a woods walk will most often show were they are hanging around.

Around here they are not that hard to find. Although their numbers for some reason have taken a hit.

She! That explains a lot! Another thing I learned a long time ago was that when you shoot the hens, they stop laying eggs. We all have our opinions!

Im my neck of the woods, fall turkeys and spring gobblers are two different propositions altogether. It's hard not to notice. I've killed more birds in the fall, many while hunting something else, than I have in the spring while specifically hunting gobblers.

In the fall, the birds are flocked up and I've had them foraging right up to my deer stand while I'm wearing blaze orange. I've shuffled my feet to see what would happen and watched them (a little less than hastily) wander off, only to come right back a half hour later to the same spot. Completely indifferent to the fact that there was a hunter in blaze orange right among them. My first bird of the 2022-2023 season I took with buckshot and it was close enough that the buckshot entered and exited as a single hole. No shot spread at all. That's how close they will get. I don't know why that is except maybe they just don't associate the fall with being as dangerous when they are all flocked up. I dunno.

Spring birds aren't like that at all, at least that I've seen. By the time the season here in eastern Virginia starts, the hens have been mated and are off on their own. The toms are alone and tired of fighting. I spent this spring season trying to get a tom to come into my call and they just weren't keen on it. It took me to the third-to-last day of the season to get a two year old bird to come in to see what was making sounds, and even he got no closer than about 30-35 yards or so and then started to wander off before I shot him.

There's a reason people shoot birds at 40 yards. Because getting a tom to come that close in the spring is hard. It's not as hard in the fall. They are completely two different types of hunting.

That was a big part of my point above! Well stated!

Not to mention hens are quite a bit smaller and easier to kill than a big gobbler. I wouldn't want to body shoot one with 7.5 or 8 shot at close range regardless. I don't want my meat saturated with shot.

There are no absolutes. Two years ago a Bud and I worked the same spring Bird from opposite ends of a field. He killed it inside 30 yards.

I had a Coyote come in.

Here a lot of hunters go out and practice calling Birds before the season comes in . They wise up more than a few Birds.

I’m not shooting at 40. Even with the new TSS shot.
Little fun in it.

Well, thanks for the clarification about it being Fall hunting, and sometimes hens. I wonder if those two things have anything to do with their numbers taking a hit?

Don’t think so. We had a piece of ground that only a few of us hunted. There were at least 3 huge flocks..30 minimum.

If 10 Birds were killed there it was about the max.
It’s now down to small flocks of 10-15 Birds.

Battue, I don't think you are stupid. I think you are saying some stupid things. Probably based on inexperience in the turkey hunting world and your insistence that you know more than everyone else in this forum. I can tell you know about clays games and some about wingshooting. But you are not a turkey hunter. Occasionally a turkey killer, but that is a different thing entirely. If you're a turkey hunter you enjoy the hunt. You enjoy scouting, locating, calling and using woodsmanship to bring a bird close enough that you center the head and neck for clean quick kills. After that comes enjoying your harvest on the table. What you're talking about is akin to ground sluicing a covey of quail as a target of opportunity and then blowing the hell out of the meat. What's the point of that?

And btw, yes I have killed a few turkeys flying. When I was young and dumb a few times. Once when I wounded a gobbler. And I always took a hard target focus on their head and lead them so as to place my shot charge on the head and neck. Not the breast and body of the bird. I wanted to kill them instantly so I could recover the bird and not see it glide out of sight where it would hide in the thickest brush around. Also cracking a tooth on a piece of tungsten is to be avoided at all cost.

I I’m not a dedicated Turkey hunter. However, most of my Birds have been killed quickly or instantly. I can only think of one Bird that got away.

As far as the eating???? None have been destroyed to the point of throwing a breast away and have to crack a tooth.

Nor am I about to start aiming for heads, when I have a whole body of vitals to hit. I have a bigger target up close with a standing Deer and a scope. I don’t shoot heads there either.

Addition: And the Jelly Head phenomenon and LR killing of Turkeys is around a decade or little more recent way it’s done. That wasn’t always the case.

I can’t prove it, but when you start shooting Turkeys at 40 yards plus with a shotgun, my bet is there are as many crippled gobblers taken out of the flock as there are by us who shoot hens. Maybe that is why the numbers are down.
How many took an outlander pellet in the guts and walked away as a supposed miss. To die later. If you don’t think it happens, then you haven’t given your 40 yard patterns a critical look.

And there are more than a few who can’t see a Turkeys head at 40 yards vs aiming at it with a shotgun. Many couldn’t hit it consistently with a scoped rifle.

Forgive the typos, texting while bouncing along in a car.

I've been shooting turkeys in the head for over 40 years. Just killed a big gobbler two weeks ago. All pellets in the head and neck, not a single one in the meat. Just the way I like it.

At 40?

More like 25 this time but I've killed a pile of them at 40 and farther in the past. Me thinks you need to study some 40 and even 50 yard patterns with modern chokes and turkey loads if you think 40 isn't certain death with a well directed charge.

where i hunt turkeys they don't sit tight like a pheasant. So I'm still struggling to imagine jump shooting turkeys. Maybe there are places that the cover is just that thick that they'll hold tight? Where I hunt they like to run rather than hide and hold.

It's not that hard. I hit a bird in January at 41-42 yards in January with a load of TSS #7 and had only a single pellet below the neck, and that went across the top of the back right where it meets the neck. Otherwise, all the pellets that hit entered the neck and head.


Many? No one could "consistently" hit a turkey's head with a rifle at any distance. Heads are small and almost always in motion - always bobbing and weaving up and down and side to side. That's why you use a shotgun. You don't use a rifle to grouse hunt, do you? If you hunt turkeys with a rifle, a body shot, broadside, mid body, high on the wind will drop one with very little meat damage. A body shot on a turkey with a shotgun will damage lots of edible meat and will leave pellets in the body, unless you're using shot big and heavy enough to pass through, or at least stop at a bone. And shot also bloodshots the meat. Even little pellets will leave a bloodshot trail as it passes through.

The only time I've seen them "hold" is a hen on a nest. And once they think you are too close, they'll flush off the nest. I've traversed clear cut areas that are covered in briars and brambles, not hunting, and not knowing a hen was near, only to have her launch herself into the air and fly away when I was 10 or 20 feet away.

TSS changed the rules… but anytime you want to school me on 40 plus yard pellet pattern and retained energy and penetration… go on, it should be interesting.

Don’t hold back.

As far as flushing Turkeys in the fall...Well spring is not the only time one can call Turkeys. I'm sure some of you are familiar with the KeeKee comeback call of a busted flock.

That being said, any who have roamed the woods a lot in the fall, in a wood where there are a lot of Turkeys, it should not be rare to run into a flock. They leave a lot of scratching sign for one and two a feeding flock makes a lot of noise. Sometimes they are over the edge and you hear them. You may want to just run into them and send them every which way. And sometimes one will fly your way and close. Or you sit and start with the KeeKee.

Or you may want to try and figure out which way they are going and get in front. Sit down be still and wait for one to walk by.

Or the Dog may bust a flock and the same repeats. I've also had them run and try and hide in something thick from the Dog. Which is mistake because he/she is going to take me right to them. And often an easy flush is the result..

Seems as if there are those who prefer the spring and those who prefer the fall. Maybe us stupid ones like the fall better, since it is so much easier and not a real Turkey hunt.

What's to school you on? It's a long settled issue. If you are suggesting what those of us here have seen first hand many times is just an illusion and you have some special insight that the rest of us don't have that suggests what we all know is wrong, then lay it out.

I'm not much of a pattern guy, but give me a look at some of your 40 and plus patterns...Tell me what the retained energy is...or better yet show me some pics of skinned turkeys hit at 40 plus..I guarantee you all the pellets will not be in the head and neck.

Your mistaken if you think I don't know you can kill a turkey at 40...I'n sure you can...I'm not sure you can do it consistently or without wounding and losing a few Birds. Or show me your 40 plus yard jelly heads.

Fall Bird that I could have shot....If it wasn't Sunday. Maybe 15 yards away.




One I did....15-20...I know just a little one. 7.5 or 8's Shot him in the back running up hill. He ate well. Shot a Grouse about 30 minutes prior.



Friend managed to call this one across an open field and kill it at 20-25....absolutely amazing. Of course we cheated a little and had a decoy out.

It's interesting that you are arguing about retained energy and lost and wounded birds by taking head shots, and then advocate body shots to "cover the biggest area of the vitals."

Have you ever cleaned a wild turkey or parted one out for cooking? "Vitals" are surrounded by thick muscle and robust bone. A wild turkey's wing drum is bigger than the biggest chick leg and the bone is several time bigger. Likewise, the wing flat is very robustly built. The breast on an decent sized bird is as big as a rotisere chicken. Then you have very strong tendons and ligaments, and a virtual armor of feathers. All of this protects the vitals. The heart, liver and lungs are deep and well protected. Clean enough dead birds and you will quickly learn that these structures can keep a pellet from getting into all that. When I do find pellets in the body, they are generally up against the bone that stopped them. And even if you happen to poke a hole or two in a vital, it will be a long time before that bird is incapacitated, and likely very far from where it got shot.

The head and neck aren't nearly as well protected. Skulls aren't very thick and the spinal cord is relatively exposed. There's not much muscle around vertebrae. The head and neck contain the central nervous system which, when struck, produce incapacitation.

You're concerned about "wounding and loosing a few birds." Take body shots and that's what will happen. Probably more than a few. There's a reason serious turkey hunters don't do what you suggest - it's a literal recipe for wounded and lost birds. There's probably not a turkey hunter on this forum who hasn't had an unfortunate hit on the body of bird, rolled him, then watched him get up and run off. That is far less likely to happen with head/neck hits. The experience of hundreds of thousands of turkey hunters has proven it.

Sorry battue, you are way, way, way off base here.

If you're not a "pattern guy" you really have no business hunting turkeys. Nonetheless, here's some 40 yard patterns, and this is just what I happen to have on my Imgur account at the moment. All turkey hunters spend (or should spend) time on the rnage making sure his gun patterns appropriately.

OK, thanks for taking the effort to post up some targets. I also said TSS shot would be the exception. However, some of the lead targets are impressive.. Not all but some yes. In addition, with the obvious low pellet strikes, there are some body hits involved. Which was one of my arguments. There is more going on than ripping a head off.

As far as your anatomy lesson, I've seen enough naked Turkeys to know that at the ranges I shoot them, their body structure will have little to do with success or failure. A shotgun is a more than formidable weapon at those ranges and it would be rare for one to escape, when hit up front. As mentioned I shot the one in the back going away. Which would be about a worse case situation. It didn't kill him instantly, but he wasn't going anywhere. Wing and leg busted and most likely took a few at the base of the neck. Others have been shot breast on. The flying ones were actually closer, and have been Birds mostly coming at me or quartering away within 15-20 yards. And penetration is not always what kills...If it was then none would have died from getting hit with a steering wheel before air bags. The cumulative force of pellets, will dislodge and destroy vital organs from functioning. Something that many don't apply to the blunt force of a shotgun hit.

Some excellent patterns for lead at that range, I'll admit it. However, to say if one doesn't pattern their shotgun that shouldn't hunt Turkeys is BS. I pattern my guns thousands of times a year. It just happens to be on something other than paper. And when a Turkey is the target, it almost looks like shooting at a garbage can lid.

If you're taking body shots on turkeys pattterning is less important than if you are trying to get adequate numbers of pellets on a target smaller than a squirel for immediate incapacitation.

Yes, we agree!!!! In addition as mentioned we hunt Turkeys with a different mental outlook. I have no desire to kill a Turkey who for whatever reason stays much over 25 yards or so from me. Sometimes you will wonder what does it take? Or obviously, my calling must suck.

However for myself, shooting a Turkey at 40 yards does little for the reason I go. Same as sneaking up on one with a Turkey decoy on a stick. I could get excited about the stick thing, if you could grab him by the leg. Which would be pretty cool. You may get some scratches, but it would be worth it.

It's good you limit the range to under 25 yards if you insist on body shooting your drum sticks. Body shooting at 40 yards with lead 7.5's isn't likely to result in a turkey you can recover unless your garbage can lid target happens to catch a stray pellet or two in the noggin. And yet a properly set up turkey gun will put 180 - 200+ pellets in a 10" circle at 40 yards and shred a gobbler's head and neck. That set up kills from up close to 40+ yards consistently with no drama. And it has been this way for hundreds of thousands of tuned in turkey hunters across the nation for a long long time.

I just finished up an afternoon of patterning a shotgun.

Anywaay….the top pic looks like the type of cover I normally will cross paths with a Turkey. It would be rare to have a 40 yard opportunity. And the mentioned 20 or so is usually the best you will get.

In the fall 7.5’s are chosen because Grouse are why we are there. If I do go out in the spring it most likely will be 5 or 6’s. But if 7.5’s were all I had, it wouldn’t concern me much

The difference between me and the real Turkey hunters is I don’t think killing one us all that special. But will admit a close gobble will make one pay attention.

Or one could sit up 40 or so from where they fly down in the morning….and hope they choose that spot again….give a quiet yelp to get the head to come up…. Line it up and hit the trigger.

I am pretty much finished with turkey hunting except for the fall, when I think they are better eating. Most of my early turkeys were killed with a rifle, and it is still my favorite, but I began hunting Pa. after I retired and in the spring they required a shotgun. I was shocked at how far a load of shot killed turkeys dead. I used it there in the fall also, it was pure murder. I was grouse hunting one morning and my golden, Joy busted a flock of turkeys one crossed the old road I was on and I shot quickly. A trap load of 7 1/2 from and IC choke killed it stone dead. Just my experience!!