Hey guys, got a question to bounce off you. I am interested in a JP sauer/suhl side by side 12 gauge made in the early 30s. Right now the only thing I don't like about it is the fact that it has 2.5" chambers. I heard shooting the cheap target loads from wal mart isn't a good idea even though this is a strong action with a greener crossbolt. So could I get away with shooting this cheap "promo" ammo or should I get the 2.5" stuff or should I bite the bullet and lengthen the chambers. thanks for the info

cody

I'd just buy the 2.5" ammo. RST is a good place to buy from.

I agree, just buy the 2.5 ammo or have it bored out to take 2 3/4. Some folks will say shoot the 2 3/4 ammo anyway, but it isn't a great thing if the forcing cone is too close to the chamber. Will raise pressures.

I've got a 16 I have to buy 2.5 ammo for. If I planned on shooting it a WHOLE lot, I'd reload 2.5.

BTW, there's a good read on doublegunshop about lengthing chambers. I wouldn't do it as it reduces the walls perhaps too much.

here's a link to RST, good stuff.

http://www.rstshells.com/

erich

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Have shot the short RST shells in 16 gauge.

Worked well. Happy with them.

If I was going to shoot the gun a lot, would have the chambers lengthened to 2� inch.


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I concur with pretty much everyone here... have a GOOD DOUBLE UN SMITH... not your yokal local work on it... have them check it out... some of the German guns can get pretty thin... I have a Hubertus in 16 with barrel wall in the main bore that are about .025.... not super relevant to the chamber and cone region but shows they can get skinny. A good smith should be able to "map" out the cones and see if there will be an issue.

Along these lines... I have talked to one of the best known double gun smiths out there on a regular basis and he says that it is next to never than he has seen guns that could not be opened up safely.

Likewise, original guns hold their value better and buying 2.5" shells from RST is about as cheap as you are going to find 16 gauge shells anyways...

Lots of trade offs... you should post some pics, I would love to see your Sauer...

1) The cheap promo stuff doesn't produce lower pressures.

2) There have been lots of pressure tests run of shooting 2-3/4" shells in 2-1/2" chambers. None have ever found an increase of more than 1000 psi--and many tests have found no increase at all.

3) The extra pressure (if any) depends on the ACTUAL length of the chambers. Many so-called 2-1/2" chambers actually measure 2.6 or even 2.7".

4) The big problem with shooting "modern" shells in a 2-1/2" chamber isn't the length of the chamber but the pressure of modern cartridges.

4) German guns can usually take more pressure than British guns, because they usually have a 3rd fastener.

5) I have known a lot of top-notch shotgun smiths (including some that trained in Germany and England) and not one has seen any problem with shooting modern American shotshells in a good (if old) double, especially a German double. None ever found any problem in lengthening the chambers, either.

If all that isn't enough to confuse the issue, then some other stuff could be dredged up.

There's a current debate over on www.doublegunshop.com about this subject. There are arguments on both sides of the issue.

The main factor, if there is one, largely depends on the forcing cone. If it is tight, it can run up pressures. And 1000 psi is a 15% pressure increase in most guns, which are rated for 7000 psi.

LOts of people on that site shoot long shells in short chambers, however, and report no problems. I won't, mainly, as someone noted, the 2.5 16s are about as cheap as 2 3/4" shells, and my 16 is 100 years old, and don't want to take a chance. Also, Michael McIntosh speaks againt it. I have, in my foolish youth, shot a 3" shell in a 2 3/4 12 ga, and could tell the difference in heavy recoil. Heavier than when shot in a 3" gun, when the shot charge met the forcing cone and compacted too quickly. Also, the shot in modern shells is somewhat compacted because of the plastic shot cup. But I suppose it would still have been excessive even with felt wads and no shot cup.

A modern enbloc shotgun will take a lot of pressure and probably won't blow up with a shotshell a bit too long, but then, it probably doesn't do it any good, either.

Here's a link, if anyone wants to read it.
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=87561#Post87561

Go esoteric. Cut Federal papers and roll crimp them. Roll them with slow powder.

GeneL,

The big problem with plastic wads is the hard "core" of the wad, at the rear. How much pressure it develops in the forcing cone (and how far down the forcing cone it goes before encountering resistance) depends on the diameter. Wads designed for tapered-wall shells have a smaller core diameter, while wads designed for Riefenhauser (straight-wall) shells are larger in diameter.

I so shoot 2-3/4" shells in some of my shorter-chambered shotguns, partly because their chambers aren't actually 2-1/2", but something between 2.6" and 2.7" long. Most European shotguns with shorter chambers will actually be in this range, but even many British guns actually have 2.6" chambers.

I don't think any fluid-steel guns that are actually designed for 7000 psi. Around 8000 is more like it, and they will easily handle a little more. I do tend to use lower-pressure handloads in older guns, even if I don't shorten the cases.

If I were the owner of said shotgun and wanted to shoot 2-3/4" shells, I would not hesitate for one second to send it to Michael Orlen and have him lenghten the chambers and while he had it lenghten the forcing cones as well. I would assume that there is plenty of steel in those barrels to play with. Mule Deer is spot on.

Pressure concerns in the barrel are all good and well and IMHO easily avoided and much overstated. What is not often enough recalled is how many grand old game guns have been rattled apart by a protracted diet of shells with pressures they were never designed to handle. Most German guns I have seen can handle this better than fine British game guns but it is a consideration never the less.

I load for all gauges of damascus barrels with 2.5" chambers, as well as a few with drawn syteel barrels.
Low pressure loads are available through the 16 gauge society, but I prefer to shoot black powder and brass cases in my hammer doubles - load in this way I have a lot of fun, kill stuff well, and keeo the bugs down at the same time!:>)
cat