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I would like to eventually get a second shotgun, probably a semi-auto. I have heard the Beretta 391 and the Benelli are great. I have owned a bunch of Italian black powder revolvers and the quality was so poor I sold off everything, and their cars are known for being junky. How many Fiats and Alfa Romeos do you see around? I am down to one black powder Italian pistol, a single shot Lyman plains gun which does work, with a single shot it is more forgiving over the numerous moving parts of other Italian guns.

With the fall of Italy's economy I have read of alot of stupidity there, where it is "easier to get a divorce from your wife than it is to fire a bad worker".

Why is it that the Italian semi-auto shotguns don't seem to have the bad rap, or is it that they do but it is not talked about? Are they made in the US plant or Italy?
There are 6 or 8 Beretta 391's in my core group of family/friends that hunt. We all love them. After fighting a Remington 1100 dad went back to a pump for 30 years before buying a Beretta after seeing the luck we'd had. He said he waited 30 years too long to try an Italian auto.

Benelli is just as good, most of the hardcore waterfowl hunters carry Benelli and put them through tough conditions.

What autos are the hardcore clays shooters using? Beretta and Benelli.

Most are made in Italy. I believe (would have to double check), that the newest entry-level Beretta is made in the USA.

Beretta, Benelli and Franchi are all great guns, and they are made in Italy. Like many other commodities, there are high, middle and low ends. The Italians are no different. The best shotguns in the world today are Italian (Fabbri, Bosis, Bertuzzi, FAMARS, F.lli Rizzini, etc.), with superb guns from high to lower middle end (Beretta, Perazzi, B. Rizzini, Cesar Guirrini, Franchi, Fausti). There is also lots of junk made to compete at the lowest price points.

As to the automotive industry, hare also to say the Italians aren't in the game...Ferrari etc., though it's true they don't export middle class cars of quality.
Show me a semi-auto shotgun made anywhere that can remotely hang with a Benelli or a Beretta.

If gas operated is what you want then the Beretta is your gun.

If inertia operated is what you want then Benelli is your gun.
Originally Posted by MontanaCreekHunter
Show me a semi-auto shotgun made anywhere that can remotely hang with a Benelli or a Beretta.
If gas operated is what you want then the Beretta is your gun.
If inertia operated is what you want then Benelli is your gun.

Well said. I believe that very thing.
Benelli, and beretta rule the semi auto clay and bird worlds for a multitude of reasons. I have a few of each an have never regretted the cost for a second. If money was tight I would shoot a Franchi gas gun. Have seen buddies totally abuse them in the duck marshes and goose fields to the point the guns should just flat fail or blow up yet they just keep ticking. All good guns
Originally Posted by MontanaCreekHunter
Show me a semi-auto shotgun made anywhere that can remotely hang with a Benelli or a Beretta.

If gas operated is what you want then the Beretta is your gun.

If inertia operated is what you want then Benelli is your gun.


Not to quibble as I agree with you on the quality of the Benalli and Burrito but my Winchester Super X2 has more than just a few rounds thought it. I'd put it on par with the 391 in the stable.

Originally Posted by MontanaCreekHunter
Show me a semi-auto shotgun made anywhere that can remotely hang with a Benelli or a Beretta.

If gas operated is what you want then the Beretta is your gun.

If inertia operated is what you want then Benelli is your gun.


3+

One of those two will fit you better, find out and buy that one.

I have a 12 GA BUL that I LUV, best handling semi-auto ever and I've shot them all. I bot that gun to take Out West (SoDak) each fall but find myself using it more and more in the grouse woods, over much more expensive doubles.

NB
Originally Posted by teal
Originally Posted by MontanaCreekHunter
Show me a semi-auto shotgun made anywhere that can remotely hang with a Benelli or a Beretta.

If gas operated is what you want then the Beretta is your gun.

If inertia operated is what you want then Benelli is your gun.


Not to quibble as I agree with you on the quality of the Benalli and Burrito but my Winchester Super X2 has more than just a few rounds thought it. I'd put it on par with the 391 in the stable.



How many is more then a few. As Beretta's and Benlli's will easly do 20K plus a year no problem. I would not put the X2 in the same stable not even the same farm. But thats just me.
It's got somewhere around 30k or better through it and it's not been babied. Not a single breakage of any sort. Sporting clays, trap, skeet, ducks and geese - including shooting 6 3.5 inch mags as quick as I can pull my finger with an extended mag for snows....

And yes - there are 391s in the safe too with high mileage so I've compared side by side. Father has a K80 with well over 400k through it, an Ultra Sporter with over 100k through it, our shotguns get shot.

Didn't say it was better - did say it's been just as good. Your average shotgunner isn't going to put 30k rounds down the tube of a shotgun. If a guy's looking for a field gun - yes the pasta shooters are EXCELLENT - no doubt but others can and do hang with them.

Eta - Little brother put 3500 rounds through an 11-87 in 4 weeks. Would hardly run - I'd not shoot one unless it was a gift from someone I cared about. I've no love for it. I have seen 391s not run, I've seen Benellis not run - they all break anyone who says different either has an agenda or doesn't shoot much. BUT - ON AVERAGE the Italian semi-auto is very very good - top of the heap most likely. Just that I know my SX2 will run with it. I expect it to break eventually - just hasn't yet and at over 30k rounds through it, I consider that a fair run to the average pheasant, goose, duck hunter.
I would say for most high volumn clays shooters 30K would only be a year on a gun. I know for a fact I have put 150 flats thru one of my Benelli's in just over a year and thats only counting clays shooting. Not a single hick-up.

I have heard of stories about some Benelli's not shooting but I can honestly say I have never seen or known a single person that has had issues.

Did I mention I only need to clean the Benelli to keep the rust at bay?
As far as double guns go you get what you pay for in the Italian market. From my experience the lower priced guns are nothing to write home about.
Originally Posted by MontanaCreekHunter
I would say for most high volumn clays shooters 30K would only be a year on a gun. I know for a fact I have put 150 flats thru one of my Benelli's in just over a year and thats only counting clays shooting. Not a single hick-up.

I have heard of stories about some Benelli's not shooting but I can honestly say I have never seen or known a single person that has had issues.

Did I mention I only need to clean the Benelli to keep the rust at bay?


Agreed - on A gun but when you have 17 12 gauges alone, not counting 20, 28, and 410 and their sub gauge class shoots - A gun doesn't get worked that hard in 1 year. Buying 700x 48 lbs at a time, primers 20k at a time, wads 40k at a time, shot 500lbs at a time and that wasn't near enough for a summer.

The Benelli I saw go down was in a Missouri snow goose field. Fire once and it would FTF after. Our guide wasn't impressed but I can't speak for how he maintained it. If.

Again - my point was the the SX2 IN MY EXPERIENCE which isn't inconsequential, is and has been just as good as the 391 and when you look at their use - it's vastly more than the average 5 boxes of shells a year duck or goose hunter.
Teal I sorta agree with you. The problem is when you talk reliablity and quality you have to look at the longivity of the gun. To do so you really have to look at high volumes of loads going thru the gun. Not weather or not the average weekend warrior will put that many thru it or not. Also a sample size of one SX2 isn't enough in my opinion to base a conclusion on.

I am sure the SX2 can and will do what most ask it to do. Then again my 1984 Yugo will get me too and from work! smile

I have heard all kinds of BS problems with Benelli's. Then when I have ask more info they all have a story of how they played gunsmith on the gun a time or two. Just because you stayed at a holiday inn express last night doesn't make someone a gunsmith.

I have 5 M1's and I try to buy all I run into for the right price. I have a box of parts I have aquired over the years too. I have yet to need to dig out a part. Knock on wood.
I have both Beretta and Benelli's in my stable and have had several of both in the past. The Beretta's are top of the food chain in my book. They are built like tanks, they just keep on shooting.
But you have to clean Beretta's! I have both too but I perfer not to have to clean mine gun. Call me lazy.
I have over 120 thousand rounds through my Beretta 391 sporting and it's still going strong.
And I would be willing to bet it will go another 120K.
Originally Posted by MontanaCreekHunter
But you have to clean Beretta's! I have both too but I perfer not to have to clean mine gun. Call me lazy.


I can tell you that if I don't clean my Benelli's, they don't run every time. I have had others tell me that they don't clean their guns and they run fine. I can tell you this, my Benelli's will not shoot like my Beretta's do clean or dirty, rain, or shine, snow or dusty.
The Beretta 391 will be no longer produced in a couple years and will be replaced by the XCell 400. This comes from a high volume Beretta dealer.

Will the XCell out perform the 391? So far from around March of this year I've put approximately 4000 rounds thru mine. It has hiccuped twice. Last run was around 2000 rounds without cleaning, other than wiping it down. No malfunctions. I cleaned it the other day, just because I was starting to feel guilty. The trigger mechanism was remarkably clean. When I used to shoot a SuperX Model 1, the trigger would look like a dirty grease pit after that many rounds. The chamber area had no visible pitting. The new gas piston cleaned up quickly. Essentially doused it in Clenzoil, let it sit for 5minutes and wiped the carbon build up off. Did have to spend some time getting the carbon buildup off the inside of the barrel extension that holds the piston.

Have had 391s that wouldn't hang with this sample of one XCell for malfunctions and staying clean. Although talking with other shooters who are using them, it seems to be typical.

I think Beretta has hit a home run with the new version.

Addition: A guy I was shooting with the other day had some of the Winchester "Feather" shotshells, which are light kickers that only go 980fps. I tried them in the XCell. They functioned. The cycling was definitely slow, but function they did. However, I'm sure they wouldn't function reliably over the long haul.
Originally Posted by pullit
Originally Posted by MontanaCreekHunter
But you have to clean Beretta's! I have both too but I perfer not to have to clean mine gun. Call me lazy.


I can tell you that if I don't clean my Benelli's, they don't run every time. I have had others tell me that they don't clean their guns and they run fine. I can tell you this, my Benelli's will not shoot like my Beretta's do clean or dirty, rain, or shine, snow or dusty.



That right there is bullchit. Anyone even remorely having an understanding of the two guns operating system knows that. I will gladly meet you half way and do a head to head comparision. I'll even give you a head up and bring my gun as is which as of right now hasn't been clean since 2010 and has somewhere in the ballpark of 10K shells thru it. Loser hands over his gun to the winner.

Whats even more funny about this is that there are cleaning kits just for the Beretta 390-391. I am going to go out on a limb here and say that if there wasn't a need for special cleaning tools, then there wouldn't be a kit.

I have (303,390,391,3901) and like Beretta's and they are great shooting guns, but to say that a beretta is going to outrun a Benelli is just plain crazy. There are benefits to the Beretta's gas system but not cleaning surely isn't one of them.
Your results are close to mine, I get around 1400-1500 rounds thru my 391's before I have a hull hang in the ejection port. A quick wipe of the gas system and I am good to go for a few hundred more rounds.
A good cleaning of the barrel piston and extension and I am set for about 1500 more rounds.

I like you feel guilty letting one run that many rounds before cleaning it.
Originally Posted by battue
The Beretta 391 will be no longer produced in a couple years and will be replaced by the XCell 400. This comes from a high volume Beretta dealer.

Will the XCell out perform the 391? So far from around March of this year I've put approximately 4000 rounds thru mine. It has hiccuped twice. Last run was around 2000 rounds without cleaning, other than wiping it down. No malfunctions. I cleaned it the other day, just because I was starting to feel guilty. The trigger mechanism was remarkably clean. When I used to shoot a SuperX Model 1, the trigger would look like a dirty grease pit after that many rounds. The chamber area had no visible pitting. The new gas piston cleaned up quickly. Essentially doused it in Clenzoil, let it sit for 5minutes and wiped the carbon build up off. Did have to spend some time getting the carbon buildup off the inside of the barrel extension that holds the piston.

Have had 391s that wouldn't hang with this sample of one XCell for malfunctions and staying clean. Although talking with other shooters who are using them, it seems to be typical.

I think Beretta has hit a home run with the new version.

Addition: A guy I was shooting with the other day had some of the Winchester "Feather" shotshells, which are light kickers that only go 980fps. I tried them in the XCell. They functioned. The cycling was definitely slow, but function they did. However, I'm sure they wouldn't function reliably over the long haul.


Battue I know a few guys other then you shooting the XCell and all love it so far. I might have to pick one up soon.
Downsides so far, the trigger is not all that crisp and the hammer has a long way to go to connect with the firing pin. Guessing the trigger can be improved slightly by someone who knows how, but I'm used to it. You also get used to the longer lock time rather quickly.
Well hopefully we can find a sporting clays shoot this season we both have time to make. Then I can give yours a whirl.
Pa state shoot is July 12-15th at the Rock. I already have room reservations. Would be a good one. Probably close to equal distance for both of us.
I might be able to make that one. Always a fun place to shoot. Wait that was the last place we shoot together! LOL
Originally Posted by MontanaCreekHunter
I know for a fact I have put 150 flats thru one of my Benelli's in just over a year and thats only counting clays shooting. Not a single hick-up.
Geez, I hope you take time out every few days for a sandwich.. laugh laugh

That's a lot of shootin'....
Redneck I eat as much as I shoot. Just ask Battue!
Originally Posted by orion03
As far as double guns go you get what you pay for in the Italian market. From my experience the lower priced guns are nothing to write home about.


Depends where you draw your line as to lower end. I have used the Beretta 68_ series for over 20 years and find them outstanding; have four at this moment in various dress. Nothing close on the market for my use.
Originally Posted by MontanaCreekHunter
Redneck I eat as much as I shoot. Just ask Battue!


Since January, I've gone through around 40. Just ordered 20 flats today. It takes a concentrated effort to keep up. grin

Agree on the 68- series Beretta. One fellow I knew awhile back had 100,000plus out of his before he had it overhauled, and he was not all that gentle when he locked it up.
Originally Posted by MontanaCreekHunter
I might be able to make that one. Always a fun place to shoot. Wait that was the last place we shoot together! LOL


You sure the last place wasn't Hill n Dale?
I believe we shot Hill n Dale then Rock Mountian but I could be wrong. Damn now you know I have to go look it up on the NSCA website.
Just checked it out. Hill n Dale was 06-05-2011 and Rock Mountain was 07-31-2011. I have the PA state shoot on my calander, will do my best to make it. Are you squaded yet?
I put it in on Winscore 3 weeks ago, but as of today they don't have me listed. I called Rock Mountain but got the answering machine. Just myself for now and maybe one other guy, but I doubt if he will be able to get loose from the chain.

PM me your NSCA number and I will put you on with a deposit. You can always cancel if you can't make it.
Is the other guy DAN? I hope so he is a riot.
No, Dan is running a club in Ohio and can't get away as often.
The boy can shoot. Shot with him last month and it was a blast.
Is that the club down south of Columbus? Yeah he is a fun guy and can shoot for sure.
Cardinal Shooting Center. Not sure where it is actually located.
Yeah I think that is the one down south of Columbus. Thats a sweet job for him.
They have already discontinued the Beretta 3901 RL which was the only gun that fit my wife. She uses it to trap shoot and loves it. Almost no recoil. You can find these but beware they don't have Beretta barrels now (they are putting Stoeger barrel on the ones they are unloading). The forend fit is terrible so I bought her a Beretta barrel. There are does and don't on lubrication of the gas operated Beretta.

This is a video by Rick Gump the service manager of BerettaUSA regarding the Beretta 391 maintenance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6U4FAs51tM
Originally Posted by battue
Originally Posted by MontanaCreekHunter
Redneck I eat as much as I shoot. Just ask Battue!


Since January, I've gone through around 40. Just ordered 20 flats today. It takes a concentrated effort to keep up. grin



These just arrived yesterday and since I was down to two boxes, it's a good thing. One flat is gone already.

[Linked Image]

Battue I was buying Kent's by the Pallet. I stopped because my local Dicks Sporting goods was selling Federal Targets for $49- a flat. I talked to the manager and told him if he stopped opening the flats and putting the boxes on the selves he would sell more. He said that if I wanted to buy them by the flat in high volume then he would sell me them for $39- a flat. Guess what I am shooting now?
Holy crap!! Makes me jealous of the time you obviously have to enjoy the sport.. frown
MCH,

$39 per flat is late 1990s pricing. Buy all you can. We paid $49. for these RIOs and it was a group buy that was huge.

Redneck,

I could put myself through Harvard on the money I've thrown out the end of a shotgun barrel. Hint: I'm not that bright and it would take longer than normal. frown
No more room in the garage for anymore right now. I am sure I could have bought a small house with the money I have spent shooting.
The Winchester "Super X" model 1 keeps running for me. I have Beretta 303's, and 390's and Rem 1100's but the Super X is my gun of choice for it's workmanship.

Doc
We need to have a campfire sporting clays shoot.
I would have agreed, until I got the Beretta XCell. Not the same workmanship or all steel parts, but for function it has the SuperX Model 1 beat. Combined with the fact when something does break replacement parts will be easier to obtain and they are easier to clean.

I have three Model 1's and used one exclusively for a few years. A great semi that unfortunately became too expensive to make and be competitive in pricing. Much like the old Model 70.
Originally Posted by Tip926
We need to have a campfire sporting clays shoot.


The invite is open to all campfire members. If you are going to be in the Pittsburgh area, PM me. We have many courses within 1 and 1 1/2 hour drive.
Wife and I are talking about a vac. and PA has come up. If we head that way this fall, will let you know.
Don't know if the wife shoots, but if not there are a couple places that will have something for her to do.

One of them:

http://www.7springs.com/page/category.detail/nav/5215/Sporting-Clays.htm


Another club within an hours drive that is mainly shooting related:

http://shootlcsa.com/
Battue what do you have against this one?

http://www.nemacolin.com/activities/sporting-clays-pa

well besides the fact that they are Orvis endorsed?
Absolutely nothing, a great place to shoot and they have two courses set up. One fairly tough and one easier. Another great place for a non-shooting wife. Also a great vacation destination for a couple in and of itself, especially in the fall.

Only reason I didn't mention it was that it is 1hour and 40 minutes from Pittsburgh which makes for a 3hour plus drive back and forth. Combined with shooting it makes for a long day for someone on a schedule.

If Pullit and his wife want to stay there, I know the people who run the shooting facility well. I make the drive on a regular basis and would be more than willing to hook up with them there.

Addition: I also may be able to get them a deal on room rates. Nemacolin is a special place.
Battue I always like shooting Nemacolin specailly the Hardy Classic nice payout for that shoot.
They probably lose $10,000 on that shoot. Don't know how long that will continue, but the Sporting Clay facility is one of the few venues there that consistently turns a profit.

Nemacolin was a respected Indian Chief of the time.

The French and Indian war started there and it was a killing field. Braddock lost his life right down the road and Washington came close to losing his twice during that war.

Beautiful countryside and Ohiopyle State park which is close by is a visual jewel.

http://www.dcnr.state.pa.us/stateparks/findapark/ohiopyle/index.htm

http://www.fay-west.com/ohiopyle/


You would enjoy it for the Whitewater:

http://www.dcnr.state.pa.us/stateparks/findapark/ohiopyle/ohiopyle-whitewater/index.htm
I have kayaked the Youghiogheny several times. A couple years ago 8ft above flood. It was very fun big pushy water. A lot different from the steep creeks I mostly paddle.

One year I stayed at that little historic Stonehouse Inn. That was a pretty neat place.

Isn't 7 Springs close by there too?
I'm guessing less than an hour drive.

Have stopped at the Stone house a time or two to have a beer. Neat old place.
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