A friend's son (who I've known since he was chittin yellow) is graduating college next year and I'd like to get him a nice shotgun for his graduation.
I'd rather get him an old one but a used gun for a present is kinda tacky so I'm hoping the brain trust at Remington hasn't done to the Wing Master what they did to the 700's.

Another dumb question. I've only owned one WM in my life (a 12ga) so take it easy.
I want to get him a 20 but I'm curious to know if the 20 has the same action as a 12 or are they smaller?

The 20 is a small frame gun. Not a darn thing wrong with the new ones either, I prefer the older guns, but the new Wingmasters have really nice fit and finish.

They do get a TON of money for them and if you look hard, not sure how soon you need one, you might find an older one NIB that is a nicer gun IMO.

A NIB 1969 Wingmaster with chrome lifter would be the mother of all cool gifts.

I should add they did make a standard frame 20 at one time, IIRC the S/N ended in X.

I haven't seen a new Wingmaster, so am going off topic here....

Was at a corporate event a few months ago held at a local range. U.S. Locals all brought shotguns for the non locals to shoot skeet and trap with. Somebody brought an 870 Express of new manufacture. I know the express has never been high end, but wow. Comparing this new one to the one I bought in the late 90s, I had a Cadillac back then. Lots of plastic, lots of burrs, left a terrible taste in my mouth for Remington.

For another option, Ithaca (name at least) is still in business (new owners, new location). Have read good things about their current offerings. I know I like my 16 and 20 from the 1950s.

Also, if somebody got me a used quality gun as a gift, I'd be speechless. In a good way.

That's what I was afraid of. Never owned an Express but i did handle one when they first came out. I'd like to say I can't imagine how they could get any cheaper but obviously they have. That doesn't bode well for the Wing Master.

I have plenty of time so I'll take a look at the Ithaka's too.
Thanks

I'd love to find a NOS 20 I could afford.
That's something I wouldn't blink at gifting and although he's young, he knows enough about shotguns to appreciate it..

Wish I could actually lay hands on a new one but everything on the shelves around here is plastic.

The pre-69 Remington chrome lifter 870's do have a cult like following for having been almost hand built shotguns. Not sure if this is true or not but will say the chrome lifter 870's are slicker than snot.

An advantage of having a 20 gauge 870 built on the 12 gauge frame is all the 12 gauge parts will fit except the bolts and barrels.

The extra weight of the 12 gauge frame 20 gauge 870's is an advantage for clay shooting having a smoother swing...IMO.

The only downside is the the barrels lack choke tubes but Mike Orlen in Amhurst, Mass can correct that in short order.

I bought my son a 870 20 gauge on the 12 gauge frame which he and all his Boy Scout buddies learned to shoot Skeet with it. The boys broke that little gun in and it is now just slicker than snot and it is a "Chrome lifter gun.

Doc

Keep an eye on http://www.trapshooters.com/

I see more really nice 870 for sale on this sight than any other.

If your friend's son likes to shoot trap this is a deal.

http://www.trapshooters.com/threads/870tb.252987/

The old 870's (Chrome Lifters) are worth every dollar. The new ones are mostly pigs with lipstick.

Steel shot has made a beautiful trim shot gun into a 2x4 club of a gun.

Thanks,,,, I'll keep an eye on it.

look for a early-mid 70's 870LW in 20 gauge. small, 20g alloy receiver, mahogany wood, real nice. you can find them for $5-ish in real nice shape. no shame in giving a young man a used gun for a gift. i've done it quite a lot.

I have both the 12 and 20 ga Left Hand 870's and I wouldn't trade them for two each of the 870's made today. You can find the older 870's in new condition if you look around. My 20 ga in the squirrel woods.

The new Wingmasters are NOT Expresses. While the Expresses are functional tools, the new Wingmasters are nicely finished, quite smooth, with nice wood and, thank goodness, no white line spacers and they have real checkering. I'm looking at a friend's 2007 model 20 gauge Wingmaster as I speak. It's a trim, fast handling shotgun with a 26" barrel. Neither feather light nor excessively heavy...feels like about 6.5-7 lbs to me.

That said, the older, chrome lifter Wingmasters, though saddled with white line spacers and impressed checkering, are indeed smoother. Whether the new ones will smooth up with 40 years use is a good question, but they aren't rattletraps, they just aren't QUITE as smooth as the old ones seem to be. And though the 20 gauges on 12 frames are good guns, the newer ones built on true 20 gauge frames are proportionately a lot nicer, I think.

This is a early 90's Wingmaster with B grade trap wood, buttery smooth, its a good one. Killed more birds than cancer....

Passport,

The cleanest loading bench or gun cleaning station I have ever seen.

The Rem 870 was nice too.

Doc

Thanks Doc, I though it was pretty messy..

Old, new, or in between, I like Wingmasters.

Do your gun shops even inventory Wingmasters? I have not seen one on the gun racks anyplace in a LONG time

I agree, the 870 Wingmaster gun shop rack space is now lined with 870 Express shotguns or Mossbergs.

Doc

870s are great. Check out Ithaca, if the new company is building them right, they are the best field pump. Very light, smooth and stylish, not a gun for shooting trap, but fantastic for birds. Built with a steel frame they will hold up to a lot of shooting, but they are light enough that I do not like to shoot them too much.

Do yourself a favor and buy a BPS 20

I think one of the English stocked BPS upland specials in 16 Guage would ooze uber, one the same in a 20

Cant feel the love for any bottom feeder..

Yep times 2....


Doc

I'd take the cheapest Turkish clunker over anything coming out of Remington currently

Well their is that option.

Why no love for arguably one of the finest pump shotguns ever made? Or is it the new stuff that you dont like?

I love older 870s and have a very well worn wingman term that belonged to my dad. Current products from Remington are trash

Gorgeous 870!
Bob

I've been looking for a really good older 20 gauge Wingmaster for awhile with no luck so far.

I read Cheesy's suggestion about the Ithaca's and checked out gunbroker. There are some older 20s there that IMO look pretty good.

Here is a REALLY REALLY good 20 bore 870.... Its all the dough but probly worth it..

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=508381682

Field, you started this while I was away.. I have 6 Wingmasters.. I have had several model 37's.. I like them, but prefer the Wingmaster.. My newest one is probably at least 15 years old.. It is a 28 ga. the checkering seems to be fine, it functions perfectly.. I have two 20's that are a bit older.. I bought them when my first wife was still alive and we hunted together.. They have never given me a moments problem.. Also an old 870 from the mid 70's.. My main shotgun..

I like all of these models.. I would say the old Wingmaster from ten+ years ago would serve your purpose very well.. As you know I like pumps.. I have a 97, a model 12, and a Rem. model 31.. I like them all but the 870's get far more use than any of the others.. I haven't used an Express or owned one.. But those I have handled were pretty rough..

I worked the gun counter at the local Academy during the wettest spring and summer in memory back in 2012. The Remington 870s with matte finish were rusting in the racks. I oiled them at least once a week during that period. The bean counters have pushed the engineers out and are making decisions that reduce the quality of the products in the name of profit. A friend has a matte 12 gauge turkey gun and it has to be wiped down every time he takes it out or it will rust.

My late uncle had an early 1970s Wingmaster that I would love to have, so I am not a Remington hater. It is just the finish on the Express shotguns and 700s that I dislike.

Also, I am left handed, so the Ithaca and Browning pumps do appeal to me. A left hand safety and I have a left hand gun and the empties do not fly across my face.

The rough finish that Remington makes today is not properly washed off after bluing IMO. Im told that if you take those new guns and give them a bath, soapy water, you can wash off the salt and stop the rust issues.

There is still salt left on them and that's why they rust so easily. They either need to figure out a better way to clean them after bluing or not make the finish so dam rough.

Reason # 1000000 to find a Wingmaster..

Thanks WCH,,,,, Like you, I'm unfamiliar with the new 870's whether Wingmaster or Express but I do know that the Wingmaster was once a great shotgun and I was hoping they were still at least acceptable. I probably knew the answer before I asked though.

I'm not sure what I'll do at this point. Maybe I'll get lucky and stumble on a NIB older WM I can afford but I ain't holding my breath.
Fortunately I have some time to sort it out.

A good used one, even if not new-in-box, would make a great gift. They're hard to wear out....

Another thought....870s just balance better than almost any pump shotgun to me. I realize this is a personal thing, but Wingmasters carry nicely...I hold them where the magazine tube meets the receiver, and they balance well, usually two fingers on the magazine tube and two fingers under the receiver. Borrowed a friends 1300 XTR one day just to try it. It carried like a long 2 x 4. The balance point was ahead of the receiver, and to keep the muzzle from dropping I had to carry it by the foreend. It was a nice shooter, but you couldn't pay me to carry that gun another couple miles.

I bought a new 28 ga. WM a few years ago. One of the choke tubes got stuck in it because the barrel had a kink in it. Remington replaced it with a new barrel.
The action bars were not straight. Eventually the thing lost the bolt and the barrel during a trap session just recently.....
I love the way the gun handles. Best close cover grouse and Mtn. Quail gun I've ever used. But it's QC sucks. E

Did you send the gun back? What did Remington do?

We see all kinds of pump guns come and go in the duck blinds up here. The only NEW pump I would own is a Benelli