Looking at either a 2.5-10x56, Or 3-12x50 Both Illuminated And both a l3 reticle (Basically Illuminated #4) Going to be using it more for deer and yote hunting than anything Probably going on a standard hunting rifle (no heavy barrel) And nothing heavier than a 300win mag Thoughts an opinions I do not have either to put my hands on So looking for advice or opinions on Schmidt owners or if there is something better in your opinion for $1500 and under Let me know Always open on ideas

Got two of each. Love them. 3x12x50 gets the nod from me though. Smaller, lighter, gathers the same amount of light through MY eyes.

2 3x12x50 Klassiks here, one on a 300WM, the other on a 30 06. I could not ask for more. Totally happy with them. I have not looked through a 2.5x10x56, but I have heard from someone who knows scopes it was the better of the two in low light by a very small margin. My 8x56 Klassik is better in low light than either of the 3x12x50's but the variables are more useful.

Buy one of each and then evaluate them yourself.

That’s an idea........ having an 8x56 Illuminated klassik delivered Wednesday Probably will decide from there I’m leaning towards 3-12x50

You can read all the online reviews and ask people that own xxxxx optic but until you buy it and use it ........

Agreed sir..... I bought a zeiss v4 3-12x56 Illuminated A buddy of mine ran it in the ground bad mouthing it I asked have you ever looked through one??? He said no..... I invited him over one evening He brought over a night force and a Steiner To compare 3 days later he bought the exact scope I purchased Human eyes My biggest problem is where I am located There is seldom a Schmidt and bender in the display cases to try out

But with all that being said I value the opinions of a lot of the people here

For a very long time I ran a 1.5-6x42 with the 4A reticle.
Pretty much all over NA and Canada.
It served me well.
It's pushing 40 years old and still works just fine.
It kinda depends on what your hunting and how you hunt.
Ive had and still have a bunch of S&Bs.
Lately... The last two seasons I've run a 8x56 from a elevated stand.
For the money ,800.00 something from Optics Trade it's excellent in low crappy light.
My take on lighted reticles are this.
On a S&B. I'll take the Zenith Flash Dot as it gives day and night ability. The heavy reticles in the klassic s without a light will work well after shootable light is long gone.
How dark do you need. You can loose the heavest of non lit reticles in a klassic .if its dark enough. You never loose you aim point with a lit one.. again depends on use....
I would say from ambush pick the S&B with the biggest objective you can get.
For bumpen and runnen stick with the 1.5-6x42.
For a all arounder.
3-12x42 klassic with the lit P3 mil dot .
dave

Have the S&B German made Klassik 2.5-10 x 56 with L3 reticle on my M70 Supergrade 30-06. Had a Zeiss Victory 2.5-10 x 50 on it previously - SFP with a Zeiss Christmas tree reticle. My friend had bought the S&B 2.5-10 x 56 on "special" and was sighting in Mauser M12 in .308 and invited me to shoot it. I looked through the scope and WOW, the image quality just blew me away. To my eye anyway the image was so crisp & clear and seriously it was like nearly half the price of my Zeiss!!!

Luckily the shop had a few left and I bought one immediately. Its also FFP & I love FFP scopes for big game hunting and love that red dot for the low light afternoon situations (the dot is not bright enough in daylight unlike the Flashdot S&B). I believe the Germans got it right with FFP for hunting you don't have to go looking for that reticle it's there! A pity that with the 6x & 8x zoom ratios now the European makers have for the most part gone SFP and I understand the reasons for that.

Took that combination to Africa in 2022 as my light rifle and it was wonderful. Only Con its big and its long but that also has its advantages as you have a lot of mounting flexibility with the long tube. Some scopes these days have tubes so short it can make getting optimum eye relief difficult.

Get it while you can!

I’ve been looking very hard at the 3-12x42 Klassic with the L3, basically a German #4 with an illuminated dot. It would be replacing a Steiner GS3 2-10x42, as my dark timber, evening/early morning stand rifle scope. Since our hunting regulations changed to half hour before and after sun rise/ sun set, I want something that penetrates into the dark cedar swamps. The Steiner is good, but I think the Klassic will be a big step up in low light performance. I really want to stay away from the huge 50 and 56 mm objectives if possible.

Agree. You’ll enjoy a serious upgrade.

Lots of good first hand information in this thread that the OP can use to his advantage. Good luck and keep us informed on what decision you make and how it works for you.

PM sent!

Dark is dark, scopes can only transmit available light and do not “gather” light, I repeat scopes do not “gather” light.

I had the exact question, glad to have found this thread!

ME TOO!

Is the difference between a Klassik and Zenith noticeable to the average shooter? I am buying one or the other. I did pick up a 8x56 illuminated, should arrive in the next week at my son’s house this week.

That's not true.

Your eyeball might open to 7mm if you're young and gather 7mm worth of light.

A scope with a 56mm objective will gather 56mm worth of light and concentrate it down to a smaller exit pupil based on the magnification.

One can see much better in very low light conditions through a high quality scope than with the naked eye because the optic is gathering more light and concentrating it to a brighter smaller exit pupil.

Actually, a scope can only transmit light equal to the scope tube... Not the objective lens.

If you have a 56mm objective and a 30, tube, you get 30mm's worth of light. Brightness has to do with the lens' used in the scope.

While some scopes are clearer than others, they don't have the mystical ability to mysteriously "gather light".

🤔

I have had the 3-12x50(L3) and the 2.5-10x56(A9) and it is a tossup . The 56mm will be a longer scope if that bothers you.

Great info. Now I worry about my nf

Well I avoided responding to this thread until I got a tracking number on my new S&B so you guys would not get the few they had before they got my order shipped. I know, very selfish of me.

Sometime last year I put my email into EuroOptics to have them notify me when they had in stock a S&B I have been wanting for some time. Well I got an email yesterday that it was back in stock and placed the order for a Klassic 3-12x42mm LM P3L. It has a Mildot reticle with a lit center section in the first focal plane and exposed turrets to dial.

I have had for some time a S&B Precision Hunter 3-12x42mm with a non-lighted Mildot reticle and it has been a fine scope but it only has a little over 3 mils of vertical adjustment (going on memory here) in what S&B calls a BDC dial and the one I ordered has almost twice that adjustment vertically in the dial.

If you don't need a 50mm plus objective, and I am not sure you do in most hunting situations especially with an Schmidt and Bender, I would highly recommend you give it a look.

TFF.
Thanks for the heads up.

Illuminated dot on Klassik 8x56?is just a little larger than I like (But I’m going to use it to see how it works ) glass is awesome just a side note I have a zeiss v4 3-12x56 Illuminated as well And will give the Schmidt a run for its money on clarity and I actually prefer its illumination The off settings between the power ranges is very convenient

I feel the same way about that illuminated dot. Yes the Zeiss #60 reticle is a far better reticle.

I went my son a text early today to order the S&B 3-12x50 L3 from Eurooptics that’s on sale.

The only comparison I have for the S&B illumination is the Swaro Z6. IMO, there is no comparison, The S&B is superior, especially in the ability to dial it down super low. For me, this puts S&B at the top of the list for illumination. Also, for me, the dot size is perfect, especially when you crank the brightness down the way your are supposed to in low light. Everyone's eyes are different and everyone has different preferences. Before investing in an alpha scope, one really needs to look through them and make up their minds what is best for them. For example, in the 1.5 x 6 x 42 old school category of non-illuminated scope, my Swaro is noticeably better to my eyes than the S&B.

Have you looked thru a Diavari or other high end Zeiss scope with a #60 reticle?

I have an older Diavari that is exceptional but to my eyes not as good as the S&B in low light. In the bright daylight I really can't tell much difference between the two or even the Swaro Z6. They are all super clear and bright.

I meant as far as using that #60 in lowlight. It is pretty impressive . So your experience is that the S&B illumination is better than the Z6I? I have not looked thru the Z6I .

I meant as far as using that #60 in lowlight. It is pretty impressive . So your experience is that the S&B illumination is better than the Z6I? I have not looked thru the Z6I .

No, never looked through a Zeiss #60 in lowlight or any other lighting. My older Diavari is not illuminated and has a duplex style reticle.
For me, The Swaro Z6 illumination did not provide any benefits I felt were having the extra weight in the scope. I bought another just like it without illumination and am much happier with it. I don't have a lot of different scope experience, but for my eyes the S&B illumination is perfect.

I’ll say this I wouldn’t sell my zeiss v4 or my Schmidt Glass is great in both But the more I test this zeiss The more impressed I am with it I have a diavari 3-12x56 that is also great But I swear this v4 is right there with it There again as a previous poster stated I drug out a kahles 1.5-6x42 helia c with a #4 And I forgot just how impressive it is in low light conditions for a non illuminated scope

Thanks for the clarification. I have to deal with 30 minutes after sunset where I hunt unless I go to SC where it is an hour. I have turned on the illumination very few times.

I am very interested in hearing more about that new scope, especially new dial !

I've not gotten hands on the newer version yet, but I use a 3-12x42 P3L with the 3.2 mil BDC. As I understand it, the newer version is the same but has 4.8 mil on the dial.

With any decent BC bullet/round, the 3.2 is fine for my hunting. The 4.8 would allow me to play a bit further though, so I'm hoping they will retrofit/upgrade at some point.

I am suppose to get the scope delivered tomorrow but it may be a few weeks before I have time to mount it on my 7mm rem mag and shoot it. I will get a report out when I do. I think I am going to like the center lit reticle because I have a Nightforce NRX that has a center lit reticle and it works really well. I also like the Mildot reticle for its simplicity. I don't plan to shoot at real long range, only maybe 400 yards or so but I do like to do it with some level proficiency.

I just received a 3-12x50 klassik with l3 reticle. Honestly I've not had a scope with better illumination. It doesn't bleed at all. The light stays confined to it's dot. When you flip the scope around and look in the objective lens, I see NO red light. Whether it should or not, this always made me think " can my quarry see the illumination in my scope?" I could see it in every other illuminated scope I've owned. Really looking forward to hunting with it.

Got mine today; can confirm 4.8 mil on the new dial.

Sweet. Is the function/design of the dial the same as the previous or were there any changes there?

Good question. My existing Precision Hunter has a dial that starts at 1 and goes to 13 with 4 clicks/hash marks between each number, for a total of 48 clicks. I hate that arrangement. It should have had 0 as the start of the dial for your rifle zero and then you dial up from there.

I'm pretty sure mine starts with 0 at the beginning hash and a numbered hash at every 5/10/15/etc. Not looking at it right now but if it started at 1 I think I'd remember it.

black baby names

This is what mine looks like, note the picture is rotated 90deg

That appears to be MOA where mine is MIL...but either way, it still seems odd to start at 1.

A quick look at:

https://www.schmidtundbender.de/en/products/turrets/hunting.html

..shows the following which is what I think mine looks like. I'll verify tonight.

Is that perhaps an older MOA dial version?? I have a Klassik (confirmed by Jerry @ S&B) with 0-12, and 1/4 MOA dashes in between the numbers... just a thought.


edit - typing delay / late reply, JCMCUBIC already suggested MOA

Well Schmidt and Bender told me that it was 1/2 centimeter clicks at 100 meters, or approximately .20" at 100 meters, or .18" at 100 yards which is a very poor way to do a dial. This makes the 4 clicks between the numbers even more useless. Now I am not sure those Germans do the same way twice on anything they build because I have heard of so many different variations of the Precision Hunter including yours.

Now I have not shot this scope for 10 or more years and I have forgotten what it actually is and how I dealt with it but I plan to shoot it as soon as the wind dies down here to confirm the dial. I have never hunted it only shot it a few times at paper. My plan for it is to let a friend use the scope on a elk hunting trip in the fall so he and I will ring it out on his rifle.

0-45 on the dial.

pic upload

Excellent. Thanks!

Yes, I like that 4.8 a lot!

Stealthgoat,

It could be MOA and that would explain the 4 graduations between the numbers but again when I purchased the scope their web site indicated 1/2 cm or 1/5" (.20") at 100 meters. When I got the scope I also called to confirm the graduations and was told that the information I had was correct.

Now I have had this on a 7 Rem Mag and many years ago when zeroing the rifle I ran out of adjustments to have the scope zeroed and still have dial room in the vertical so I installed Burris signature rings with offset inserts and the next range session I was able to zero the scope and move the dial its full range. I did not verify the click values, although I should have, and I only shot the rifle at distance by using the Mildot reticle and have never dialed it. In fact I don't think I have shot that rifle in 10 years or a little more and it was never hunted with that scope. I did not like the dial and just did not use the scope.

As I said earlier I plan to shoot the rifle and confirm the click values on the scope as soon as the wind stops blowing my hat off.

I am very much looking forward to getting the new version of this Klassic with the 4.8 Mils on the dial. It should be here today.

Got my S&B 2.5-12x42 P3L and it is just as AKwolverine describes. I think I will be happy with this, 4.8 mils on the dial and a Mildot reticle what's not to like. Oh, and the lit center section of the reticle appears to have more than enough range of intensity to fit any ambient light situation.

AKwolverine,

My heart has sunk a little after reviewing my new scope. Please look at your owners card and see if yours says what mine appears to be saying in that the elevation turret is 1/2 cm but the windage is 1 cm. Now the scope was advertised by Euro Optics as a 1 cm scope. If it is a 1/2 cm elevation I am no better off than I am with my old scope.

1 cm; clockwise turret; ASV = BDC

You’re happy.

Thanks, I saw that 1/2 cm and that scared me.

Of the half dozen 3-12x42 Klassik's that I've worked with, ALL have had a maximum elevation "travel" of 2.4 MILs. I suspect this is the true for your scope as well, which would mean the elevation turret pictured is 0.05 MIL/click. It would be awesome IF the turret travel was indeed 4.8 MILs, but I don't think it is. A range, or a lab test will tell you for sure. In my experience, a phone call or an email to S&B can be very frustrating.

That said, I was able to get S&B to make me a few custom dials, they call them BDC but they really aren't, marked in MILs from 0 to 2 with hash marks at every 0.05 MILs. It took a while, but it did happen.

Like I said, it would be awesome IF your turrets had a 4.8 MIL travel, but I recommend you check them to be certain. Please let us know what you find out. Best.

Depending on application. I would consider 6x42, 1.5-6x42 and 3-12x42.

If sitting on a high seat, after deer or wild boar at dusk, then some sort of 8x50-56 would be good.

I like the old 4x36 too. We are hunting, not spotting craters on the moon, in my opinion.

I verified the BDC's added to mine (6x42 and 3-12x42) both start at 0 and end with 2 hashes past 30.

This turret is 0.25 MOA/click. 0.25x32 = 8 MOA which is very close to 2.4 MILs (8.256 MOA).

Not according to S&B or according to the dialing I've done with mine. When I had them added through S&B's US office I had to specify if I wanted them in MOA or MIL. I chose MIL.

The following is from https://www.schmidtundbender.de/en/products/turrets/hunting.html

All good. I'm just relaying my experience to the 24HCF because one poster is excited about 4.8 MILs of elev travel on his Klassik which may turn out to be only 2.4 MILs.

Ok guys, I have been in contact with Euro Optics this morning and "Sam" with them spoke to S&B and confirmed that the vertical increments on the 2.5-12x42 LM P3L is in fact 1/2 cm, not 1 cm as advertised and we were lead to believe.

You guys that have purchased that scope since its reintroduction should most likely contact Sam at EO and discuss this. I am sending mine back.

Well … damn.

I want to apologize to the OP for highjacking his thread. Any future comments will be in a separate post.

With the details on their website for that specific turret on the 3-12x42 being listed as 48 cm they have really screwed the pooch somewhere along the way.

Yeah, I agree J. It’s going to be a while before I can get a chance to get this thing mounted and sorted out but it’s listed everywhere as 48. And I really don’t think this is too much of a thread drift to stay here as; 1), this IS the optics forum, and 2), it was one of the recommended scopes.

Someone needs to throw it on a rifle and verify the adjustments at the range. Making it .05 mrad is absolutely insane.

I was going to buy one from EuroOptic and they said the same thing, 0.05mrad clicks for a total of 2.4 mils.

Man this sucks. Less travel that the last available option which I sent off for a turret.

What cartridge? While I understand the aggravation, why not run a 20 MOA base or ring setup?

With a flat base 2.4 mils gets you 400-450yards or so with a 308 and 168s. Adding the 20moa will get you past 600.

With a 280AI velocities 2.4 will get you past 500. 20 MOA base pushes beyond.

What are you trying to achieve with a hunting scope and rifle?

The 2.4 mils are what is available on the dial, 48 clicks at .5 cm, not the total travel of the scope adjustment. A 20 MOA base still only gives you 2.4 mils on the dial. The dial is the limiting factor.

Understood. Stupid design but my question stands. How many mils does one need in a dedicated hunting scope?

Today I received a 3-12 back from S&B that I'd sent in for an upgrade to the new 4.8 dial. Mine was .1 mil adjustments before sent in and was the same when returned for 4.8 mils adjustment with the dial. Verified by dialing and comparing reticle change as well as sighting in and target test.

There's a downside with 3-12....it has limited elevation travel and bottomed out with the 25 MOA rings...at 200 yards it's still ~3 mil high. I have a 20 MOA base I can switch it out to, but that may still be high at 200 yards. The never produced, 15 MOA base would be perfect.

Thanks for that update J.

No idea why they would be sending out new scopes with that dial that are 0.05 mill adjustments then. Somewhere, somehow, something’s getting lost in translation.

This is very good news. Presumably, the turret is the same as before; that is with 48 detents/clicks and less than one revolution travel, which means the internals changed somehow. Correct? I have several 3-12x42 Klassiks that could use the some upgrade. I'd love to know, and I imagine a few other members as well, exactly how you were able to make this happen. Who did you talk to and how much did it cost? Stuff like that. I imagine the scope had to go back to Germany so the turn around time was likely several months.

I'm not sure about internals changing, just the parts for the dial and how it seats...I believe the internals are the same as previous. It works exactly like the 3.2. S&B US Service Center takes care of it in house. They have to receive the dial from Germany and as I understand it, the one the installed for me was the only one they'd received. Turn around is very quick.

Yesterday I swapped the 25 MOA hybrids for a 20 MOA rail and Seekins low rings (.82). Obviously this gave me 5 more MOA on the bottom end but it also seems the rings w/rail lowered the scope a touch based on how close the bolt handle is to the cover on the eyepiece. I ended up with .5 mil left in the elevation bank after a hasty 200 yard zero. If I can work it in today I'll verify and check drops.

How did it go? Anything to report the campfire?

Nothing other than it adjusts as it should. Really like the scope and extra 1.6 mil of the new turret.

Just realize that if you're purchasing one of these a 20 MOA rail will be about the limit of the lower elevation travel. The 25 MOA rings need more adjustment than the elevation travel of the scope contains to zero.

My Klassik 3-12x50 arrived today from Eurooptics. Mounting on a Xbolt 300 WSM for a moose hunt. Three other S&B’s are 4x36, 6x42 and 8x56 L3 reticle.