Maybe new hunters should restrict themselves to fixed 4X power scopes for deer and other large game. If they feel they need more magnification, then they know they really need to get closer to the game.

Umpteen years ago iron sights accomplished this.

A 4 power scope is not restrictive for general hunting, it's pretty much perfect. Where I do find it restrictive is at the range were you are trying to do some load development or shooting small targets at longer ranges.

I use 1.5x5s, 2x7s, and 2.5x8s. I use the low end for hunting and the higher end for range work. That's good for a new hunter or old.

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A 4X is a good place to start....and a good place to finish.

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So two fixed power scopes cover load development and general game use.

Use a 20X fixed power on detachable rings for load development, or maybe a 16X.

Use a 4X fixed power on detachable rings for hunting.


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What BobinNH said.. +1

If the glass is good - and even inexpensive Weaver glass is good enough- load development/range work can easily be accomplished by simply using aiming points one can see well at the chosen magnification and distance. I have had no trouble shooting 1 MOA or less with 4X and 6X power scopes at 100 and 200 yards if the rifle and load were capable and I used aiming points I could see well. Trying to use a little 1/2" dot which works with a 12X scope to aim a 4X scope is a bit of an exercise in futility however.

I started out deer hunting with a 2.5-4X B&L. By the time I actually got one, my rifle was equipped with a 2.5-8X B&L. It wasn't until I bought a new Ruger in 7X57 in 1972 that I went to a simple 4X. For my other rifles, I used all sorts of variables, including a big 6.5-20X40. Little by little, I discovered the 4X worked far better than I ever thought. When I finally started using Leupolds 6X42 a few years ago, I realized that a fixed magnification scope really does, or can, have some very priactical advantages over any variable.
The only thing they really lack is much low light performance. A decent 6X takes care of anything almost anyone needs for that. E

Agree 100% with everything just stated.

Damned tough to beat a top-shelf 6x42 for 99.9% of hunting usage. For those other pursuits, (i.e. LONG range varminting; CLOSE range dangerous stuff), it's a specialized pursuit and rig anyway.

I learned to shoot deer with a 308 Win and a steel tube 4x Weaver with a plain crosshair. Like it was said a couple of posts ago 4x is a good point to start and end. Just about all of my rifles have 3-9x variables, but I almost never use them set at anything but 4x. After learning to shoot with this setup, it is almost as good as a rangefinder. If it looks too small in 4x it is very probably too far away to shoot at. Even with the newest Whiz Bang Magnum and Optical Wonderscope. Most guys I see with this stuff, despite the marvelous equipment wind up shooting too far for their skill level. Rangefinders are a different deal, they are very useful, provided you don't addict yourself to the things. I'm not anti magnum, I use both 300 Win and 7mm Rem. My go to deer rifle is a Ruger 6.5x55.

I've shot hundred of coyotes with a 250 Savage with a variable 3-9 Weaver that my dad put on it years ago. I usually just turn it all the way to 9 and leave it there. It seems to me that over half of these coyotes are on the move. If you call them in, or just come across them somewhere, there are almost always more than one. I can't claim to hit them all, but I can get more of them running at 500 or 600 yrds than anybody I know. I think a fixed power scope has a big advantage in that the animal in the field of view appears a certain size consistantly, and this is your range finder. If the scope I have ever fails, I will replace it with a fixed power scope.

E and Jacque: +2 to all that. I hate to admit this, but although I own and use some variables (split about 50-50 between fixed an variable these days), I have never shot a big game animal with a scope set above 4X, including those taken at or over 400 yards. I know this will brand me as a Neanderthal throwback, but generally, i just aim and shoot and the last thing to enter my mind is whether i have enough scope power for big game.

Jaque is right; sticking with a single power setting builds a subconscious awareness of distance that you acquire through experience.You know when stuff is, or is not, in range.

that being said.....is it a 6X or a 4X ??? I am planning on having a 6X customised by Leupold and Kenton Industries, but not the 42mm, rather the FXII-36mm.

If you can't shoot a deer or elk with a 4x or 6x scope, you can't shoot. When you throw in Antelope or Coyote you may need more magnification, or crawl closer.

3x9 has become the standard but it is hard to snap shoot at 9x despite what some youngsters are able to do...

How 'bout a poll, how many have left the scope magnification cranked up from sight in and forgot to check it when hunting? I have a few times...

Some will disagree, but my pick as a general purpose big game scope would be a 4X. There could be times when 6X would be more useful, but I have gotten along nicely for years with a 4X.Not that I dislike variables because I've come to trust certain ones; it's just that I never seem to use the variable feature except at the range.

I did recently buy a Leup 6x36 with the "long range" reticle. Looks cool but have had no chance to try it.

i just started doing the switch from 3x9s to lower power scopes so much so that 4 of my heavy guns wear leupold 4x s,most animals i shot , except for 1 deer were set at the lower power ranges depends i beleive the situation and where you hunt,the areas i hunt here in ontario are pretty thick and once in a while you get a long shot,i used to use my scopes at 3 most the time so i settled in the fixed 4 x dont worry about trying to decide what power i left the scope on when a deer screams by me,did i accidently leave the scope on 9x oops gone deer.

My 4.5-14 hasn't left 4.5X in almost 10 years. I'm gonna try the 2-7 next. I imagine it will stay at 2X most of the time.

Then why spend the extra money?

I'm a fan of the current simple, light and durable LEU fixed 2.5X, 4X, and 6X scopes. New, old, experienced or not could all do very well w/ nothing more than the 4X.

If LEU ever comes out w/ the new 3X, I'd be content w/ nothing more than that and the 6X.

GVA

Variable power scopes are pretty much a security blanket for those who feel they simply must have the perfect power for any conceivable circumstance. But I think that a new shooter should not have to worry his head over subtle nuances like that, and should just concentrate on rifle shooting basics, and mastering field positions. High power in scopes is nice over sandbags, or "locked-in" positions with bi-pods, etc., but are a hindrance to a kid (or anyone else) looking to be a good off-hand shot,or from the sit, etc., etc. High power also slows you down as you struggle to steady bouncing crosshairs from less than rock solid positions.Maybe it's just the way I see things through scopes, but a 4X has always given me adequate definition at any reasonable range, and anything within 400 yards has never been safe.

I've found I like a bit more power in a rifle for use on Canadian whitetails, because the animals are sometimes hunted along huge fields, where a rangefinder and more scope power has been theoretically useful, but my last two whitetail bucks taken up there were both killed at about 75 yards, on fields that I could glass and laze to about 800 yards. They both appeared so suddenly, and on the move, that a 2.5 power would have done the job.Once again, the "theory" of big game shooting that sells so many high-end variables, failed to mesh with the reality.

I use a Leupold 36x Benchrest scope for load development, then switch to a fixed 4x or 6x for hunting. I have rifles equipped with each of these fixed power scopes. They work.

Don: Yes, they do. I really think it has more to do with what you're confident with. Some people(me) can do without the distraction of worrying about power settings. Others get a lot of cold comfort from having the ability to change power. But for new shooters, I think they're better off keeping things as simple as possible.

Amen Brother! Very well stated too.

Don

Don't really know what the "practical" limit of 4x is. Partly this is because I have taken game out to 350 with iron sights (Lyman 48 and bead front) so anybody arguning that a 4x is somehow limited to, say, 350 on big game would get an argument out of me.

Do know that I took two rifles with x Leupolds to Africa in May, both using loads that started around 2650-2700 fps. Killed game out to 375 yards with them, the longest shots when culling springbok, animals that are somewhere between a coyote and a pronghorn in size.

JB

I am returning to fixed 4x scopes, Zeiss Conquests and spare Leupies on my main rifles as I have found that they do everything I need. I never used a variable from 1964 to 1985 and seldoom have shot game with more than 4x, works for me.

While Jeff Cooper had more than one complaint about variable power scopes...

Cooper's main complaint was that the hunter spent too much time fiddling with the scope magnification rather than getting about the business of closing the hunt with the successful first shot. The game animal is on its own clock and might flee at any second. The hunter, and especially if there is a PH involved, needs to be quick about the business of readying for the shot and taking it.

To Cooper, shot placement was everything. On Babamkulu Trek, Cooper encouraged us to take a 257 Roberts, 270 Winchester, or the like. All of us took 308 Winchester class rifles (my brother took a 7 x 57). We took 48 animals including zebra, kudu, wildebeest, etc without any troubles using 308 class rifles and fixed power / low magnification scopes. Median range was 110 yards with the longest shot being 400 yards.

The rifle scope is not the binoculars for scanning and trophy evaluation.

Have heard African PHs complain about Americans who take forever fiddling with their scopes when they should be shooting.

Cooper commented that in all the years of Gunsite and the Saturday morning shoot-offs, he never saw a correlation between scope magnification and who won or placed highly on Saturday morning.



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I had the same problem when I was guiding pronghorn and deer hunters 20 years ago. A nervous pronghorn buck would be getting ready to follow his does over the hill, 200 yards away, and then hunter would be lying there dinking with his 4-12x, because he thought 4x wasn't enough!

Interesting that nobody had trouble taking plains game to 400 with a .308 or something like it. That has also been my experience in Africa, but a lot of other people insist some sort of magnum is the only way to go....

JB

I see that there is a new Zeiss Conquest fixed 4x now rather than just zooms.

I'm going to have to consider one of these with a #4 reticle for my .375 H&H for non-dangerous game... a little over 4 inches of eye relief too.

John

This is probably the BEST single big game scope for BC hunting that I have ever had in over 40 years, a tremendous product for the price. I am putting these on all my .338s and will on my one 9.3x62 with a low enough bolt handle.

I have a Type B Obie in 9.3x62 that wears a Leupie 4x in EAW swing mounts as the bolt will not clear the objective housing of the Zeiss and I will not modify it. But, this Zeiss Conquest 4x is a BOMB for BC hunting.

damn, kutenay...

Thanks to your post, I can't decide between the 3-9x Conquest and the 4x Conquest.

Cheers from a fellow Canuck,

John

.375 H&H = 4x, IMO.

in this case the 4X Leup FX-II at $269.00 does not look bad for the application. Do they make a matte with a regular duplex, the 6X seems reasonable but a 6X might be a little much for me on a 15 yard deer!

jimmy,
Check Rick's pages for the answer to the Matte finish question, I don't know.
I have bought several Leupy 4x scopes from Rick, all gloss. And, I had several before I came to the Campfire. Most of my rifles now have the 4x scopes on them, along with three that have Leupy 6x42's. Quite honestly, 4x is more than enough for hunting up here in the swamps.

Don

kute-
Would you be kind enough to measure the tube length of the 4x Conquest for me? I don't beleive that is a measurement that Zeiss puts on the their website, but I need it to see if it will fit my action.

thanks much

the plain 6x proved a little tight for me in the woods.
the plain 4x was - and will be - sufficient.

Fish: I sorta feel the same about 6X; I know JB will disagree a bit here since he feels 6X is useable in the woods, which it is; but I lean towrds 4X. My 223 wears a 6X and I love it.

Jimmy: if you want the 4X matte with a regular duplex, you gotta send it to the custom shop. I checked.Don't know why they did it that way....(?)

So, JB, when I go over to Africa, I will be fixed up OK with a 270, and a 4X for plains game, right?

If anything, I find that a 2.5X is just about perfect where I hunt. I have low power variables on some of my lever guns, and most of the time, the setting is 2.5X, or less.

Bob,

Unless you have some eyesight problem that demands more X's, why not?

JB

While the 4x is being discussed.....several have mentioned it for a .375 in various threads.

Thoughts on a fixed 4x, say the Leupold FXII, for a rifle which will be used for Cape Buff or perhaps AK bears? I'm sure the 2.5 is popular, but what about a fixed 4....

JCM

Where does the Weaver Grand Slam in fixed 4.75X power fit into this discussion ?


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JB: Nope, I can see fine! When do I leave?.........

JCM: Easier to talk on a PM. Not a thing wrong with a 4X on a 375. My lightweight custom M70 in 375 has a 4X leup. on it, and I would not want anything else. It's simple, rugged, has held zero for about 6 years now, and the animals you hunt with a 375 are so damn big, you do not need more power. Plus, I suspect it will take more recoil than a variable.I hunt deer out west every year with a 4X. I am not gonna worry about whether a 4X is enough on an elk, moose, brown bear, etc.

Up close MABY you could use less power, but I've shot black bear at 20 ft with a 4X, so.....

My second 375 wears a 2.5 Leup

In the middle, i.e. PERFECTLY!

I just bought a Ruger Hawkeye 7mm-08 for my 12 yr. old son and scoped it with a 4X Nikon I took off my muzzleloader. It's just what he needs on that rifle I think. And now I'm considering replacing the variables on some of my other rifles and simplifing things with a fixed 4x or 6x scope instead. I'm seeing the light, no pun intended.

Fish
Not all 6x scopes are created equal... I like the discontinued 6x Compact Leupie for mouontain rifle use, but would hate it for tight cover use. The compromises made to make it small and maintain eye relief do not make for a bright, fast scope.

The 6x36 Leupie is ok, but the 6x42 IME is great in close...
art

Bob,

I was just in Namibia and used a 375 just because I wanted to for PG which I hoped included a big eland bull (it didn't) and had a 1.75-6X Leupy on it and it never got past 3X.

I should add I hunted mostly in close thorn bush but had two shots over 225 yds. A lower power helps you find your target quicker and if my experience is any measure you have to be on the sticks and ready to fire quickly . You don't want to be on a real high "X" and you can't figure on fiddling with it once you get on the sticks. 9 out of 10 times the game is watching you already as you mount the sticls and you probably have just seconds.

George

just wasn't for me, sitka. i tried mucho to like the nikon for all things. perhaps if the eye relief had been a bit longer, it coulda fooled me ...
great, great item, though, for food plots, rights-of-way, firelanes ...

Whats kind of ironic is that most new hunters go for the big variable power scopes. It takes experience and patience to realize a good fixed 4X will just plain "get er done" and thats what i've come around to. Although my first scope was a Burris fullfield 2-1/2X fixed and it still works pretty good.

I bought that Weaver GS 4.75X and its a great deal for the 150 bucks i paid for it.

Goodnews:Sounds like Africa was fun for you. I think that VX III is a good scope; I use a 2.5-8 more than any other variable, but that 1.75-6 somehow seems better suited to a 375 IMO. I keep going through these mental gymnastics on scopes for 375, and get these flashes of brilliance brought on by high pressure systems and excessive doses of Vitamin B, where I want some high end variable for it; then I take it to the range, shoot it at 100,300,and 400 yards with a 4X, hit everything I want, and forget about different scopes....

In the real world a 3X is as good as you can get for a 375. 4X also works very well, I think; with the right loads, a 375 is a great 400 yard cartridge, but most stuff shot with it is taken much closer, I suspect. You don't have to go scope crazy with a 375, and in mixed cover, I understand the need to get into action quickly.I hope Leup brings back the 3X; I already let them know that.....

Hmmmm. All this 4x love might explain why it's taking me some time to run across another rough finish shotgun M8 4x Leupie.

43 2N: Contact "270Guy", a friend who posts here. He is in the business. If you PM him, I'm sure he can get you one.

Jimmy, I run a fixed 6 and variables on my rigs and I've seen no difference on close shots with the 6 versus the variable set at 3 or 4 power. Both eyes open takes care of the target acquisition aspect of close range shooting

I can see a difference in the timber with a 6X if I have to swing or track something moving; there is just too much magnification for me and I do shoot both eyes open. Too many years with lower power scopes I guess. But no doubt others can do it.I do not have the problem with 4X and under.

+1 on the 2.5x. Even mo better than the straight 4x. Field Of View.... Instant target acquisition...

Total bummer that I can't get one shipped to AL. For that money, I'd like to give it a whirl.

The Nikon 6X42 is in a different world from the Leupold 6X42. That's because the actual eye relief is on the order of 3.3 inches for the Nikon and 4.5 inches for the Leupold. That means the eye box is far larger on the Leupold. You can tell the minute you cheek the rifle. If the scopes are properly positioned, there is no hunting, or adjusting your head's position, for the image. It's always there regardless of the shooting position or what clothing/pack you are wearing. That's why the Leupold 6X42 works so well regardless of cover or ranges. E

I'm not an optic wizard like some who post here, but I use a 4X on my 30-06 to hunt larger game with. I think it's just right all around. If I had a rifle just for the plains and one just for the woods, I think I'd go with a 6X out in the open and a 4X in the woods. I like the 9X setting on my 250 because I am not really that much of a snap shooter either. i.e. when I shoot at the first coyote, it is more or less usually standing still and I have all the time in the world to find it. I like the 9X because coyotes aren't that big especially the second, third, or fourth one, way out there and running, and the extra magnification helps me see them better. It also is nice to watch them coming in through. I don't believe in shooting large game at these ranges, I like a clean kill then, but for coyotes that's different, if I can throw enough lead that way, I can usually kill them, or at least cripple them and catch up to them. For large game a lesser magnification is probably better. I'll stick with my 6X for the open and 4X for the brush advice or 4X all around.

Natchez currently has these for $139.99. Does anyone know of other retailers that are offering these @ a similar deep discount? Since I'm in AL I can't take advantage of the Natchez price. Any help is appreciated.

natchez ain't that far away, blmb. drive over there? does natchez do over-counter sales?

Dunno. Do they have a brick and mortar walk-in store? 'Nooga is approx 2 1/2 hr drive if memory serves, was there last summer.

e:
6x is too much for me at 30 feet, no matter what the eyebox or eye relief.

That's a royal pain in the rear isn't it...... Ticks me off everytime I see a posting about Natchez. I really don't know why they do that. Midsouth is in TN as well and I can order from them while I live in AL. Irritating.....

I'm about 45 minutes from Chattanooga and I don't think they have a store. Never seen it or heard about it.

JCM

The last buck I shot near 30 feet, I shot from the hip. E

I never practiced that.

An old buddy who still hunts and gets his deer at age 83 was always rather deliberate. He had one of the early B&L variables and a buck came into view in a 3" requirement area. He turned the power up to view it better and the deer walked over the hill.

His wife helped him drag last years buck back to his house. I think that he just wants her to keep busy.

i'd never try that, e.

i run my mouth - and hit the keyboard - plenty from the hip, but i don't shoot centerfire rifles that way.