I was wondering if any of you guys varmint shoot at night?

Maybe even late evening and just after dark. Recoil is no issue so the bullet proof durability of a Leupold is not a firm requirement, the rifle in question is for simple entertainment, not serious big game hunting. It's a 25/06.

I'm wanting the brightest scope I can find with more then 10X. I'm finding that spotting a coyote at dark mixed into the sage brush at 250 yards is a chore. If they are moving it's no problem but when they hang up and howl back it's a bugger to pick out the coyote from the bush. Never have this problem with big game, but coyotes beyond 200-250 yards right at dark are a tough situation. Objective size is not limited. It's a specialty tool I'll put in Ruger Rings and swap out with another hunting scope when needed.

Anyone else with a low light varmint setup for longish ranges?

Try a Nightforce NSX or a Schmidt und Bender with the lighted reticle. The S&B is better optically and you can adjust the brightness of the lighted reticle with a knob while hunting. The Nightforce scopes are big bright and cost about 1/2 what the S&B's do but aren't quite as sharp optically and the reticle brightness isn't really feild adjustable - you have to take the knob off and adjust a small potentiometer with a eyeglass screwdriver.
Both are better optically than Leupolds and tougher to boot but more expensive....................................DJ

JJ: I do not know as much about these things as DJ, but I can tell you that at one time I had a Zeiss Conquest 3-9,a SWARO pro hunter 2.5-10 with 30mm tube, and a bunch of Leups in 3-9,2.5-8 etc.and spent a bunch of time looking through them at dawn/ dusk and after dark at the range and at my house. Did this for an entire winter...

The swaro pro hunter was far and away the best when it came to viewing things in bad light. Matter of fact, you could see to shoot way past legal shooting hours with it.I often wondered what a larger Swaro would do. There was a large timbered hill side that allowed me to look over 300 yards from my driveway, then further back into the woods. The swaro let me see back into the woods as well, with enough clarity to shoot,say, a deer.

For a low light scope, it would be my first pick;JMHO.

As you know, here in Europe we do hunt at night and I've compared performance on a few night scopes belonging to friends -- I'm in the market myself, Jim!.

I compared a Schmidt & Bender 8 x 56 to a Swarovski 8 x 56. Both are real "full on" night hunting scopes for sure! While I fully believe the Schmidt & Bender to be a tougher scope, the Swarovski was able to resolve more detail in real darkness and had a little more eye relief (not that important to you, I understand).
Swarovski

Scmidt & Bender

I've also given a big Zeiss an after dark test, but it was an older steel-tube model that might have been 20 years old so I don't think that relevant here. For what it is worth, it was good but not as sharp as the Schmidt & Bender or Swarovski (both of which were recently made).

All of the "big 3" European scope makes offer lighted reticles, but I don't think they are needed (and those battery housings look like a wart!). For me, an unlit German 4a reticle was usable even when I could just barely make out a target on a cloudy night. Maybe somebody with better eyes could see a target in even less light though...

Overall, I'd likely get a Swarovski 8 x 50 unless you are sure you can find rings to mount that 8 x 56 monster!

Do resist the temptation to get a zoom though. In daylight I can see no differences, but in real dark you can see the extra light loss caused by the additional lenses in a zoom scope.

John

A third generation night vision scope is the answer.
Or, attach a flashlight to the rifle to light up the Coyote. I have two flashlights that will light up the world, they are that bright.
On a moonless night, I don't think any scope made today will do what you want. But, if the moon is out, with snow on the ground, a scope like the S&B will get the job done, however, you are limited to only hunting at night when the moon is bright enough to see.

Don

Thanks for the feedback. I rather doubt I would opt for an electric powered reticle. The big obj scopes with power up to 12 or so seem to be a good option. I don't care if it's one of the big dogs in the business. As I said it will be mounted in an extra set of rings which can be swapped back and forth on this rifle as needed. Thankfully Ruger Rings re-zero pretty good, and a couple shots to check zero are usually all that is required.

S&B Short Dot and Flash Dot scopes are at the top of the food chain for lit reticle development.I've been running a Flash Dot now for almost 5 years on hogs without changing the battery.The technoglogy has been 100% reliable in my limited experience.
You may not like the way they look or how much they weigh but IMHO bigger is better for this type of application.
NV is a whole other ballgame.Whole different kind of ugly to.
I have not felt the need to go NV, as of yet......
dave

I have 4X gen 3 binos and they are magic in the dark. For a rifle......yeah, 3k for a gen3 NV is a bit silly, unless it's gonna earn that expense back to me over time. I managed the NV binos in a good arrangement so they were not a huge expense for me.

What I've learned about this is that, you only need enough of an exit pupil to see the image under the light conditions present. On bright, full moon nights in open country, this can be a 4mm exit pupil. But, on really dark nights, in black timber, this can be as much as a 7mm exit pupil.
The other thing you need is magnification at that useful exit pupil level. That means a big objective so that you'll have enough exit pupil size to use the extra magnification. What it does is put you closer to the target. That, far and away, is more important than any differences in one company's fully multicoated lenses, etc. vs. another.
Fixed magnification scopes do have their advantages. They are brighter and much more reliable. Whereas variables with big objectives, 50mm plus, are well known for being much more troublesome. Still, you will need to be able to change magnification as the nightime lighting conditions change, so I suspect that's where to look. To indicate the differences, a variable with a 40mm objective will give you a number of 15 when used at a 7mm exit pupil ( 5.7X ). But a 50mm will give you a number of 18.8 ( 7.1X). With a 4mm exit pupil, the 40mm (10X) will give you a 20, while a 50mm will give you a 25 (12.5X). A 56mm will give you 21 w/ a 7mm exit pupil (8X) and a 28 with a 4mm exit pupil (14X).
Good luck. E

fwiw & imho,
Having a bit of personal experience trying to hit smallish targets at medium to long range in low light to night I'd recommend a properly designed illuminated reticle. Some will recommend thick reticles, however, when you put the distance requirement I've had very little luck with heavy reticles...

The problem, as I've found it, is being able to precisely place your point of aim. A heavy reticle on a small target at medium to long range at night does not offer that option. Nightforce makes a hell of a scope, however, I find their reticle illumination to be poor on two fronts. Firstly the entire reticle lights up and it tends to distract my eye. I've never had the need to mil anything in the dark. Secondly the rheostat flat out sucks... The only scopes that I've personally found IDEAL in those circumstances are Schmidt Bender PMII LPs. They have a small illuminated cross hair in the center of the reticle that draws your eye to your target and allows precise placement. The rheostat is also poetry in motion. That said the scopes are $2600 plus and I doubt Ruger makes a 34mm ring...

The Flash Dot technology is the heat for closer range low light engagements. I've used Short Dots to shoot Fox at night and that technology almost seems made for that activity. When ranges extend then there is a point I prefer the more precise point of aim of the illuminated PMIIs.

Too much talk of exit pupil diameter with little regard to reticle and illumination design shows a lack of experience in placing steel on target at night and at range...

fwiw & imho.

Regards, Matt Garrett.

Btw, off topic Knight's Armament offers the FIST system that is similar to the PVS 26, however, it is a fused image of a thermal sight and night vision. It is far past 10K and probabely unavailable to the public, however, it is unfair for anything on the other side of the operator. Sits in front of your day scope with less than .2 Mil-Rad deviation in POA POI from my Day Scope Zero(on my rifle). I did not want to give it back...

Jim
Check out the Trijicon Accupoints i have 2 of them and for the application you are describing they really work well. The have a 2.5-10x with a 30mm tube and a 56mm objective that should be perfect for you.
regrds
chris miral

The Real tough part of the application is the Coyote Camo. Coyotes standing still in fading light with a backdrop of dry sagebrush, Kosha, and long blonde and brown grass are almost impossible to see. I can pick them out easy enough when moving, or even with my 10X42 Leica filedglasses. So far every scope I have tried is quite tough to define the contrast between a coyote and a sage brush at 200-300 yards at the last moments of light. For the record far and away the most coyote sightings are at this moment when they will give me a howl back to locate them.

The Crosshairs seem workable although not great. It's the contrast issue between coyote and brush that needs some help. With my spotting scope using a 60mm obj at 15x I can see them clearly, but it's hard to scan the area to find them with that limited FOV.

Somewhere I need about 12-16x and 50mm OBJ or maybe bigger? What is the biggest Obj Ruger rings will accept? 56mm? I have heard of a 8X56 that sounds nice. Probably enough power to 300 yards on coyotes. If I can find them in the scope they will see Elvis. I cannot even count how many coyotes I have looked at with my Leicas, then got behind the scope only to assume it was gone. Then I look through the field glasses and the coyote is still there. Back to the scope and it's simply not possible to find it.

This is kinda bugging me that all these coyotes are staying so safe with my current set-up.

BTW what is your current setup?

What you mention shows where you really start to need the best of scopes optically. It's not enough just to be bright enough you have to have enough contrast and definition to pick out your target. Think S&B.

As an aside, has anyone tried or looked at the new digital night vision "Gen-4" stuff thats out?

http://www.xenonics.com/SuperVision/

The price is in the affordable range if it's nearly as good as they claim. I've read an article or two about it but they are from sources I don't trust as much as I would a recommendation from some of the folks here...........................DJ

I owned a Nightforce 5.5x22x56.

It was "otherworldly" in its ability to transmit light and to show fine resolution in dim light.

Nothing I have ever owned, or looked through, (as a scope) has come close - except for my 7x56 Zeiss binoculars.

I sold it because I was sick and tired of packing a scope that weighed almost half as much as some of my rifles (almost 36 ounces) to a northern B.C.'r, who liked hunting wolves after dark - out on frozen rivers.

Take one home - set it up against it's competitors on a railing at dusk - and then try to read newsprint headlines a 100 yards away. That's what I did, and that's why I bought a Nightforce scope.

They're a bit lighter now - but they are still too heavy for my applications. But, if it's optical excellence in the dark that you want - I think the Nightforce is the scope you want to own.

I spent years with the heavest of Euro reticles.A well engineered lit reticle trumps a heavy reticle every time.
Takes a bit of getting used to and looks dorkie as heck but these thing help alot.
http://www.dvorakinstruments.com/
After you get through the simple stuff it becomes all about money.How much you got? How much you willing to spend.
I just have not been able to get my head around NV.Sooner or later ill break down and buy one.But like you say.Its a Speciality appication.I'd have to do alot more pig hunting than I am to make it worth while.actually not a bad idea.
dave

dj,
"As an aside, has anyone tried or looked at the new digital night vision "Gen-4" stuff thats out?"

Thats one of the reasons I have not pulled the trigger on NV as of yet. The stuff gets better and cheeper all the time.
dave

What scopes have you tried so far? The situations you're describing is where higher quality glass and coatings really separate themselves from regular stuff. Looking good in broad daylight, especially at low power, is no difficult trick. I don't know how much you're looking to spend, but unfortunately the best glass doesn't come cheaply. A 50-56mm objective with second rate glass/coatings won't hang with a 42-50mm objective scope of better quality.

Seeing the reticle is a separate issue. It can be just as or even more important depending upon your conditions. You know your particular conditions the best and how big a problem it is. It sounds like it's not as big a problem for you as glass quality is. If that's the case and money is limited, don't take a hit in glass quality for a lit reticle. I guess I'd need a price range before throwing out suggestions.

For sake of arguement lets say 1000 bucks plus or minus I used a S&B scope last night, just looked through it. It was a great scope that might work better, it had a 50mm obj. It was probably a bit better, but not 2500 bucks better!

This is kinda like a race car. They are all easy to get to go fast, but the last 10 MPH cost more develop the the first 150 mph do!

Well, that pricerange takes out all the really fun recommendations.... No, you should be able to get some very nice glass for that.

I believe I've seen a few here who have the 3-12X56 Conquest and might be able to offer good opinions on it. That's dead nuts on for price and from what I've seen of the Conquests it's hard to get better glass for the money. From what I understand, it's a bit upscale from the standard Conquests with 30mm tube and much higher price.

Have you considered used at all? Sample List dot com has a bunch of Kahles 3-12X56's for that price range. That's a lot of scope for the money. They also have some Swaro PH 3-12X56 for just a little more.

If you want to go really simple and much cheaper, the Meopta 7X56 fixed might be right up your alley. It may not be in the class of some of the above, but I've been really impressed with Meopta glass and the price is right. Of course for a little more they also offer a 3-12X56.

Those are some suggestions to get the ball rolling anyway. I don't know if you have anywhere you can get your hands on these and look through them or not and of course that's the best way to determine which will work the best for your eye.

.....Well said.

dave

Second rate coatings ? The very best, the Zeiss and Leupolds, test at 95%. The average for all other makers usually runs about 92% for their fully multicoated optics. That 3% difference means nothing when compared to what a larger 50-56mm scope will do for you with more magnification. Try 20% closer to your target.
There was a time when this was much more significant than it is today. Back when Leupold's VariXII/III, for instance, were single coated, it would make some difference. You are looking at 84-86% vs. vs. 93-94% back then. Not hard to see that difference. E

Numbers always look nice but lupie is noted for second tier glass and coating.If you had actually spent any real trigger time behind a euro.You'd know that.Theres no big rush of euro hunters lining up to buy lupies.Theres a reason.All you have to do is look.
dave

I understand Leupold's only problem these days is to make enough scopes to meet the demand for them. They out sell all the euros combined by a wide margin according to those who sell them.
I'm sure you guys do see a difference. The trouble is you don't understand what you are seeing. It ain't glass or coatings differences. BTW, I have looked. E

No, the deal is there is a much smaller market share for Euro's and this is because the higher end niche they play in. Not unlike more middle class people than upper class. But the glass/coatings whatever are better on many of the Euro's compared to Leupold, ain't rocket science to figure that out and you're to stubborn to realize it.

Chevy sells a lot more cars than Mercedes but just about any fool who drives both can tell you which one is nicer. Just about any fool can tell which scopes are better by looking through them but apparantly there are exceptions .................DJ


BTW I drive a Chevy..

Oh brother. So much for this thread.

Understanding what we are seeing is precisely the problem. It's the point of the whole thread. When you can't with "Scope A" but you can with "Scope B" under the same poor conditions, no post from you is going to change that. Even VX-III's (don't know about VX-7's, but they're out of the price range) with the latest and greatest coatings will be "Scope A" when compared against many others--even the same power with the same sized objective. I've seen it with my own eyes, it is what it is. Your posts won't change that.

I have done a fair amount of night coyote hunting in sage brush and found an 8x56 Kahles Helia and a 3x12x56 Zeiss Diavari set on 8x to be very satifactory. The 56 mm objective is a difference maker, both had 4A reticles that I like a lot. The two were hard to tell apart, but I'd be inclined to go with a fixed 8x56 of good manufacture and although I really don't like lighted reticles, I would lean that way if buying new, especially the tiny dot style in the center of the 'hairs.

ED

I too have done a fair bit of night coyote hunting.
I used a set of Minox BD 8x58 BR bino's that worked fantastic with any kind of moon. The problem came when trying to shoot, the best I used was a Nikon Gold 2.5-10x56 with Ger#4. Even it struggled resolving a coyote in a tree line or brush.
I think most that have hunted without light at night would agree, a lighted reticle don't mean dick, It's the resolution, and you can't get it from a reticle.
Were I to gear up again, it would be as someone mentioned above, high quality (not conquest), Euro glass, fixed 8x56.
They are oddball glass in this country, and can be bought reasonable on e-bay. Don't skimp, it is the one piece of gear that can't be too good on night coyote.

I would have never thought you would have actually typed that out...



sawbuck,
I honestly don't give a rat's posterior what the other guy uses OR believes is the ticket in hitting his target. That said, if you are truely interested(and that is a big if), you really should look at the latest generation of illuminated reticles. I've found some that actually hinder the affair, however, a properly designed illuminated reticle with a proper rheostat can make for a deadly combination...ymmv & imho.

fwiw,
As to the thread I can't think of much to recommend that fits Hack's Budget or will fit his platform. OTOH Lightforce, a part of Nightforce, makes the best spotlights in the industry and sets them up for calling. If you can't see him through the scope put a little light on the subject...

Regards, Matt.

It's obvious that Sawbuck has never hunted with a GOOD lighted reticle. Like Dave7mm said you have to be able to turn the reticle brightness down far enough that it doesn't bloom out your vision. This is one spot where the S&B is superior to NF the NF is harder to adjust and can't really be done on the hunt.

Though Sawbuck is ignorant of how useful a lighted reticle can be he is correct that resolution is extremely important, You can't hit what you can see. But you can't aim with a reticle you can't see either......................................DJ

There it is....

Yep, I'm sure you're right.... most folks are just too stupid to understand what they actually see with their own eyes.

But, you have looked through THEIR scopes, and through THEIR eyes, and you understand it all perfectly.

Wow......

If I wanted a scope for this purpose, I'd be looking at the BEST Euro I could afford. Those folks practice and understand night hunting,and I see no sense in re-inventing the wheel...

I'm a confirmed Leup user when it comes to big game hunting and have found them to be just fine for any rational application. But having used some Euro's over the years and spent my time and money looking through them, my eyes DO see a difference in the quality glass on Swaros, Zeiss, etc(especially the 30mm scopes). And for off-beat situations like night-time predators, I'd invest on the big Euro side.

All I can say, is buy what you can afford for the clearest view, if you think that the Euros are the way to go and can afford them get 'em. No reason to knock leupy's they are a damn good scope that works just fine in low light situations. Only thing that makes a good night shot easier is a NOD, thats it in a nutshell. Spend the money, especially if you are selling the pelts. Les

Actually Matt brings up a good point. All of the better night hunting, predator hunters I know use a light for their hunting. The trick is to shine the light over them and pick up just the eye shine. Then drop it on them when the shooter is ready to shoot. BTDT. Don't need much in the way of fancy scopes for that. Any 6X is just fine.
What JJ is concerned here about is seeing with his scope what his binoculars or spotting scope already shows him. More magnification with a larger objective is the way to go.
Again, I know what I'm talking about concerning the euro vs. Leupy glass coatings from two sources. One, they lab test so close as to be no real difference. Two, I can see alot more than they can with their Lepys. And here is the clincher. When I refocus their scopes for them, so can they. E

Well there are the ignorant, as in lacking knowledge, unaware of, or not having experience.
Then there is the totally delusional that thinks he's some sort of Leupold Focusing God, it's almost sad...........................................DJ

I have the whole lightforce scope mounted lighting system already. It's just awkward to pack around, great near the truck, or from a dedicated blind though!

I'm liking the idea of the 8X56. I doubt I will be shooting much beyond 200-250 yards in the near dark. 8 Power at that range with a bright (brighter) view is certainly the right way to go. If I could find an affordable 3-12 X56 that is a good sounding option as well.

If this were for my big game hunting, money making business, the cost would be less relevent. However in this situation its just stinking coyotes. I'm not exactly anxious to spend a bunch of cash on this entertainment for my evenings.

Les: Everything in the safe right now reads "Leupold".....

JJ wrote " The Crosshairs seem workable although not great. It's the contrast issue between coyote and brush that needs some help."


This is the exact problem with night coyote hunting I have encountered many times. Lights are not legal here.
If there is enough light to spot a yote with binos, rest assured, you can still make out reticles commonly installed in 56mm scopes.
It's seeing the coyote through a riflescope that gets iffy.
If understanding the actual roadblocks through experience, makes me ignorant through your eyes, feel free to elaborate on how an illuminated reticle will solve JJ's problem.

Here ya go JJ,

http://cgi.ebay.com/Schmidt-Bender-...VQQtrksidZp1638.m118.l1247QQcmdZViewItem

Sawbuck, Have you actually used a High-End 30mm scope such as a S&B with a lighted reticle in low light conditions? I think not, which is why I defined Ignorance as not having experience with - it just sounds like you haven't used one because if you did you would see that a good lighted reticle can make a difference.
You are dead on correct that higher resolution is also critical, fortunately both issues Resolution and seeing the reticle are solved with a good S&B/Zeiss/Swaro scope with a lighted reticle.
For years the Euro scopes led the trend with low light scopes with 8x56's with fat reticles, this is of course because they are allowed to hunt at night. I think if you will start checking into the trends that European scopes are following you will see that more and more of them are using lighted reticles. An 8x56 with a 4a or 7a reticle was the old state of the art. The new state of the art scope would be about the same scope (or maybe a variable) but with a lighted reticle. Maybe Roe Deer would be kind enough to comment here. He could tell more about European scopes trends than about anyone else here......................................DJ

It ain't rocket science DJ. But, for those that insist you can't focus anything but the reticle with the eye piece, it will be until they get beyond that belief.
If the euros have some kind of magic ability to increase resolution, why doesn't it show up in lab tests ?
The big advantage of a 56mm, 8X56 would be it's fewer lenses which would allow more of the image to be transmited than would a variable with the same combination of objective size and magnification. Not some mythical property that makes for more image clarity. A variable 56mm would also better than what he's using if it allowed more magnification as well. Puts one closer to the target. Anyone can test this. Simply move closer to the target during low light conditions and observe how much better you can see it. E

Taking a leupold on a night time hunting trip is like taking a knife to a gunfight.
dave

.............................DJ

Actually I think that the newer VXIII Leupy's aren't that bad. I think they are a definate step up from the older models. I've heard that their illuminated reticles have had a few reliability problems so they might not be the way to go but with the increase price separation some of the VXIII's are becoming a lot more tempting to me. No they aren't as good Optically as the high end S&B/Zeiss/Swaro's but for sometimes 1/4! the price they are good enough for a lot of applications....................DJ