What are the Pros & Cons of using a SB. What other scopes are just as good or better? Your opinions are appreciated.

Excellent optical quality and reportedly high reliability. The 30 mm tube scope I tested was heavy and bulky in comparison to other scopes.

jim

I own one S & B 1.5-6x42 and 3 Zeiss 1.5-6x42. I have used and compared the near identical Swaro. I do not see any appreciable difference other than price.

Excellent glass just to heavy.

My taste in optics dates back to the Civil War,but on the advise of some good folks on here who know their stuff, I got a S&B Summit 2.5-10X40.

This is not a small scope,but trimmer than many 30mm Euro's,and not at all burdensome.I can't claim vast experience with it yet,but so far...................I love that Summit!!

I have a S&B Zenith and a Zeiss Victory Diavari. To my eyes, the S&B just edges out the Zeiss.

However, it comes at a price. In this case, several hundred $$ and 6+ ounces heavier.

+1.....IMO they are the best of the best...been using them exclusively since 2001....heavy = strength. Worth the extra $ to me...

I also just bought a S&B Summit 2.5-10x40 from Doug for my .257 Roberts (Happy birthday to me ) . It's a few ounces heavier than the 2.5-8x36 Leupold that was on it before, taking the rifle to a very tolerable all up weight to 8 lbs 9 ounces.

I have to say the scope clarity and eye relief is incredible. Is it worth about 2x the cost of the Leupy? I'm not sure yet. But it is very very nice and I'll deliver my final opinion after some time in the field (Axis hunt in Texas in April)

I don't care for the aesthetics of the logo on the side of the bell and the other bright silver lettering and I'm going to go with the tactical application of a sharpie or a little lacquer thinner on a Q-Tip and see what I can do about that.

Coin slot or finger adjustable small turrets under caps?

Finger adjustable but there's also a small phillips head that allows you to also spin a turret-like adjustment like a turret so your setting is at zero.

I'll bring it up when I pick up the wild boar hams.

Other scopes as good or better? S&B is at the top of the Pinnicale all by themselves

The cons are that they are heavy and very expensive.Its also very expensive in that you'll never be happy owning just one.Once you get one,rest assured you end up buying another.(Hear that BOB)

I've been using them exclusively for big game since 1986.I got side tracked this year and I wont be making that mistake again.

The pros are some of the best build quality you will ever run across in a rifle optic.I've had several 1.5-6x42s and there bomb proof.I have a 1.5-6x42 Flash Dot thats never let me down.I've got several other models and there just as good.
The euro models have a FFP reticle and a 30mm tube.The new Summit has a SFP reticle and a 1 inch tube.All mine are FFP reticles,and to me these days, a SFP reticle looks screwed up.But thats just me.
S&B sweats the details on there glass like no other company.

"The quality of the coatings utilized on rifle scope lenses (and the skill of the company applying them) are one of the most critical factors in determining the light transmission properties and low light performance of a scope. Good modern coatings are known as "broad band" coatings because they transmit a broad range of the visible light spectrum (i.e., 350 to 780 nm) with a high degree of efficiency. The weighting and mixture of different values of visible light are calculated as "day value" and "twilight value."

Lens coatings are carefully guarded secrets, formulated by skilled physicists. We calculate the makeup of our coatings in direct relation to the physical composition of the glass to which it is applied, since glass can react in differing ways to the same coating. Our coatings are weighted in favor of certain nanometer (color) values, giving preference to certain wave lengths which are most beneficial to the hunter under actual field conditions"

No one else puts this much effort into there glass.No one.If you buy one and spend some time with it.You'll find that out.

dave

how repeatable are the adjustments compared to leupold, nightforce, and the other high enders?

Nightforce and S&B adjustmeents are as precise and repeatable as it gets, S&B is the best lowlight sope that I have ever used and that includes Zeiss, Nightforce and Us Optics

thanks that is what i was wondering. i have a zeiss conquest in 3-9x and if the s&b is better than that in low-light that is saying something!-keith

Dave: I'm trying to ignore how nice it is......

I've used practically everything on the market for low-light/night hunting. Schmidt und Bender Zenith with Flash Dot is as good as it gets.... unless you upgrade to night vision.

Zeiss Victory Diavari is not far behind the S&B in my experience. The Flash Dot IMHO is what makes the Zenith stand out and trump the Zeiss.

Scenar: Accustomed as I am to things like 4X and 2.5-8X scopes, I'm fussy when it comes to too much weight in a scope....but I have to admit that the Summit,while about as "bulky" as a 3.5-10 Leup,really did not feel that "heavy" to me on the M70.....it sort of nicely balanced the whole rig off and made it very shootable......the very long eye relief(even at 10X)makes it very user friendly. No need to be concerned getting whacked with this thing....this scope could go on a 375H&H...no sweat

Bob,

Just to muddy the water a bit... If you really like the Summit, then you would love the Zeiss Victory Diavari 2.5-10x42mm. Weighs a bit less, and balances better. Not much bigger than a VX-III 3.5-10x40mm


**Picture "snagged" from BxRoads**

Stick a fork in you Bob.You're all done.You just dont know it yet.
Just ask jwp475.

dave

S&B Scopes are superb optical instruments in all cases. They are all relatively expensive. Some models are somewhat heavy.

Optically they are comparable with the High end Zeiss and Swarovski scopes some of which are lighter than the comparable S&B. I've used all of the above and there really isn't that much of a difference between the top scopes of the three brands. All are superb, different sets of eyes might find they prefer one brand or the other.

If one fits your needs and you can afford it, a S&B scope will be an investment you'll be glad you made.........................DJ

We have been running a 4-16x50 PMII since 2001 out to 650 on a 300 WM.Same load and bullet.For 8 years the the come ups were the same.That rifle got restocked this summer and two clicks came off pretty much all the way out.
My carry rifle is a 270 with a 1.5-6x42 Flash Dot.

Havent had to monkey with it in years.
dave

Dang dj.
I thought they were all heavy.Havent handled a Summit yet.
dave

Only experience is with the S&B 1.5-6 classic.
In low light side by side comparison against 1.5-6 Swaro, the Swaro was noticably brighter.
Mine had very short eye relief, bit over 2.5 inch. S&B warranty didn't want to hear about it.
Have recently bought three Kahles CL scopes, top end performance at less than half the price of S&B.

My experience is that the adjustments are as precise and repeatable as you can get. Moving in cms instead od 1/4 inches can catch you once in a while though.

Well at 16.9oz the 2.5-10x42 Summit isn't a lightweight some Ziess and Swaro 50mm obj, 30mm tube scopes weigh less but at least it's not 20+ oz like some of the others.

Sometimes weight can be a good thing if it was used to make the scope bulletproof tough!........................DJ

That piece of wisdom escapes some although it should be fairly obvious to most.

Hello All,

I haven't been around for some time but Dave does keep me up on things here at the campfire.

The 300 win mag that Dave spoke of is mine. We have identical 4 to 16 X 50 PM II S&B scopes. I have used the 300 win mag on 8 hog hunts in Texas without the use of any artificial light. We go out an hour or two before sunset and hunt till around 2am, typically. I had a McMillan Hunter Class stock fitted to my 300 win mag this past summer. I shot it at 100, 200, 300, 350, 400, 450, 500, 550, 600 and 650 yards. My worst 3 shot group was at 350 yards for some reason (3") and past that my best 3 shot group was at 550 yards (1 1/2") with nothing over 3" to 650 yards.

As to the repeatability of the elevation settings. I crank the top knob up and down all the time for deer hunting and it always repeats, without fail. This past season I took a deer at 437 yards, measured with a Leica range finder on opening day - Dave7mm saw the shot. Four days later I took another doe at a mere 40 yards - didn't have to concern myself with elevation adjustment with that one

Three years ago I took a deer at 467 yards, again measured with a Leica range finder.

Dave and I were at the range today preparing for another hog hunt in Texas. Since I am using a different bullet for hog hunting I wanted to sight in at 100 yards. I shot the best 3 shot group of my life today using the 300 win mag with the 4 to 16 X 50 PMII - the 3 shot group measured .094"

As far as, how "tough" is the S&B scope I would say this: I have a 1.5 to 6 S&B on my 375 H&H Ackley Improved (shot it today as well) and never had a problem. I shot a zebra and a bushbuck with it in Africa using my own bullets - 272gr.

Some people concern themselves with weight. I never liked a rifle/scope combo that weighed less then 9 pounds - but that's just me. I have a 7mm mag with a Swarovski 2.5 to 10 X 42 that I have used on 2 hogs hunts in Texas and it is my carry gun when big game hunting in PA. I used it to take 5 different plains game animals in Africa using my 127gr bullet. When I used that rifle/scope combo in Texas, hunting at night, there was a full moon and clear skies.

It's not fair to compare the 2.5 to 10 X 42 Swarovski with the S&B 4 to 16 X 50 PMII in low light or no light conditions. The S&B is superior.

I don't consider the S&B or Swarovski scopes to be bulky but maybe I am just used to the larger scopes.

My next S&B will be the 5 to 25 X 56 so I can extend my range and take animals at longer distances.

I should say I only own S&B and Swarovski scopes.

Don

Sweet Jesus, it lives.

Old dogs are hard to kill Steelhead

Donknows rifle scopes.
dave

S&B rifle scopes manfactured before the mid 90s,say 1994,had 3.15 inches of eye relief.I would call these scopes pre classic S&Bs.After that S&B upped the eye relief to 3.75 the best of the euro scopes.The rear eye piece also increased in size by about .080 in diameter.
For the life of me I could never understand why anyone would have a problem with a S&B.For decades S&B has had the "Seeing is believing program."
You pay for it.You have 3 days to look it over.As long as you dont mount it or mark it in any way.You can return it for a full refund.No questions asked.
It dont get any better than that.
So if it only had 2.5 inches of eye relief and the Swaro was noticably brighter.Why didnt you send it back?
dave

Yea it does. Elites give ya a full year and you can mount it, shoot it and if you don't like it for any reason, "seeing is believing" or otherwise, you get your money back. Of course, the S&B might be a better scope.....................................

S&B wouldn't acknowledge that shorter than advertised eye relief was a fault with the scope, might add that I wasn't the only one with the same complaint.
In the end the factory agreed to fit the Zenith ocular at cost, I sold the scope soon afterwards, couldn't live with the average low light performance

I have an older S&B Classic as well. No doubt there's a HUGE difference between it and the Zenith....

FOsteology: I have heard nothing but good about the Zeiss as well;but have never seen one.Might one day,but I was attracted to the Summit,likely because it was one inch....

In any event,the eye relief and field of view of the Summit is very much like the Zeiss Conquest 3-9;which is to say VERY forgiving in both departments.Those using hard kicking rifles would like the Summit.I would like to see the Summit in a 1.5-6X for a 375 -type rifle.

Another scope that I found to be very good for eye relief is the Swaro Z6 1.7-10 owned by a friend; I have shot his 300 Weatherby with that scope a few times...veddy nice as well...

Mounted a new S&B Classic 6x42 right out of the box on a SS Mountain Guide .308 prior to the 08/09 season and hunted the entire period killing a few more than 10 deer. The down & dirty?

Pro's:

Excellent clarity
Unbelievable low light capability

Con's:

Big, Long scope body
Asthetics (personal thing)
Heavier
Reduced Eye Relief (a problem on anything over a .308 IMO)
Cost

Sold prior to this past season and replaced it with a FXIII 6x42 Heavy Duplex.

Final Analysis:

Can't say it was perceptibly better at low light hunting than the Leupy FXIII 6x42 that replaced it. I'm sure the glass was superior, but it is darn difficult to tell when hunting/shooting in very low light. The Leupy does everything I believe the S&B did for me in a lighter, more compact, more eye-pleasing way and was less than half the price.

Just my .02 cents.

So if it only had 2.5 inches of eye relief and you couldn't live with the average low light performance.Obviously this S&B was defective.
Why didnt you send it back upon delevery for a full refund or another scope?
I have never heard of a shorter than advertised eye relief problem from S&B.Ever.Only from you.
DonKnows 1.5-6x42 No4 reticle is a mid 90s vintage scope that came to us as a pre classic 3.15 eye relief scope.Packed it up sent it back with a note requesting the extended eye relief model.And a week later it showed up.Not one question was asked.

....I 've spent alot of time over the years comparing my 1.5-6x42 pre classic 3.15 eye relief S&B to just about every rifle optic I come across.Running my S&B against a 1.5-6x42 Swarovski PH.I usually find that the Swarovski suffers from Leupold disease or TCS.Short for THIN CROSSHAIR SYNDROME.I have pretty much always found that the S&B with its optical coating weighted in favor of twilight performance coupled with heavy reticles.Typically gives the S&B the edge in the dark.It always has to my eyes.But as dj says up above everyone eyes are different.YMMV

dave

Not as much difference optically as you might think FO.But the dot will outdo the heavest of reticles in the dark.Everytime.
dave

Please explain this to me Dave, in light of glass quality and coatings.

How does the dot outdo the heavy reticle every time?

Are the S&B #4 posts not as robust say as the Zeiss? Is the crosshair too fine?

I have a S&B 4x36 fixed power scope, with a 1" tube. It is one of the two best scopes I've ever looked thru. It's size is just right for a fixed 4x.

tomk
Cant speak about the Zeiss.But the old S&B 4a I had covered .68 on the thin part of the reticle at 100 yards.That always seemed to be just about double what I saw on the Swar PHs I looked at.
.68 looks ever so good on a deers chest at 400 yards.
TCS will kill your ability to make low light/twilight shots because you cant make out your aim point.It'll get dark enough that you just cant see it.
The advantage of the Flash Dot is, it doesn't matter how dark it gets.You always have an aim point.The Flash Dot is also great for running shots in broad daylight.

dave

Thanks for the reply, I was afraid that you were inferring something to the low light potential of the glass itself, rather than just better reticle clarity.

Dave, I assure you that I have been in the darkest of situations--with the right scope and the right electric-free reticle I can make the shot as long as I can still see thru the glass....

My concern over forking over the dough for a Summit, is that its a second plane and the #7 reticle looks like it has fairly narrow heavy posts like the Swaro.

This is my light carry mountain rifle...built by GA Precision. Topped with a 10X42 S&B PMII. It weighs right at 7 pounds right now. I have a pair of Talley LW rings in 30mm on the way. That will lighten it up another 4 to 5 ounces.

That scope is bomb proof and gives me the option of shooting long if I need to.

Bear I shot last spring with the above rifle at 575 meters...

tom: My Summit has the Duplex,and it is thin at center....but I have had it at our range a few times at last light;and I can't seem to lose the reticle against dark woods,last light.

That said maybe it may be too thin for you....I dunno.

To me, there is not a better scope on the planet than a S&B!!

I have tried Zeiss, US Optics, Leupold, Kahles and Swarovski scopes - they have all been sold and I will only us S&B scopes from here on out. I have 6 S&B scopes to date and never had a mechanical failure with any of them. They are as good as it gets!!

Here's a couple on my rifles:

The SFP is the Summit killer for me,I dought Ill ever own one.To many good FFP hunting scopes around.
.....My Flash Dot has been excellant.
dave

For those of you who are not yet true believers there is an article in the September 2009 American Hunter about the S & B Classic 2.5-10x56 scope. The author calls it the "Scope of Scopes", and explains the reasons why.

I have this very scope and it is indeed superb.

scenarshooter 300MAG
Very nice.

dave

mrmarklin,
Been toying with the idea of a 2.5-10x56 Flash Dot.Or a fixed 8x56 with the PH knob and a lit reticle.
I cant make up my mind.
dave

If you dont mind.What are the specs of the rest of the rifle?
dave

Yeah Bob, I like the #4 Euro style.

If the light gets low enough you eventually lose the crosshairs, but by then you aren't shooting much for distance anyway...:) If the three heavy posts are thick enough they give you plenty of guidance...provided their ends terminate close enough to one another. To me, in very low light, the two horizontal posts flow together into one and you use the vertical post for centering the shot.

No doubt good electronics would help clarify but that is just another gadget too far for me.

Too bad that #1 isn't isn't available in the Summit. I emailed S&B and asked for the subtensions--the #9 posts looks heavier on their webpage than the #7 & 8--kinda of a weird reticle--but heavier posts.

Yeah, it is getting right in the price range of the Zeiss and heavier by an ounce to boot.

Damn choices.

Dave, this is getting off the track of the original post.
Just cause you've never heard of a similar incident doesn't mean it didn't happen.
Why didn't I send it back, as in my previous post cause S&B wouldn't accept it as defective, I still have the receipts for the upgrade to the Zenith ocular from the factory.
As to the older S&B having the edge over the PH Swaro, not in my experience.
Back to the original post, for around a third of the money, I'd give serious consideration to the Kahles.

Dave,

Out of interest, have a look at the Swaro Z6 range with the illuminated reticule. It is by far the best illuminated reticule I have ever seen..Its only a shame those scopes are all SFP :-( otherwise I would own one in a heartbeat..

Regards,

Peter

Pete E
Will do.
dave

I remember that deer (picture taken in my back yard)

Dave, did you gut that one or did I gut that one?

Don

The cons of S&B are price and weight, otherwise they are superb.

A few friends have 2.5x10x56 S&B's, I think the youngest of them is about 10 years old. I have a swarovski PV 2.5x10x56 rail mount that is about a year old, my swarovski is brighter to my eyes than any of the S&B's, but I haven't looked through a new S&B so it may just be the age issue.

I really don't think you'll go wrong with a S&B, swarovski, or high end Zeiss. I think the new one's from any of these three makers would all be about equal in optics and toughness. The schmidt will be a bit heavier.

The hardest thing to accept about a S&B(+the other Ultra premiums) is that there is a visible difference in resolution.

Is it twice as good as a scope half the price? No. Is it immediately discernible under all conditions? No, but, once you become used to it, most every other scope just doesn't look "right". Therein lies the "big problem".

The second "problem" in regard to the variable power big game scopes is once you get used to the FFP reticle situation you very well may distain second focal plane scopes altogether.

In a nutshell, the size of the "problem" is directly inverse to the thickness of your wallet.

My circa 1999 1.5-6x42, magnum eyepiece/ cammed elevation turret, and #4 reticle.

apparently add custom rifle builder Mark Bansner to the S&B fan club:
from his website
http://www.bansnersrifle.com/custom_rifles.html
BANSNER'S "SAFARI HUNTER" Big-Game Rifle
Chambered for the powerful .375 H&H Mag, .416 Rem Mag and .458 Lott......... Your scope will be professionally mounted and range tested for accuracy. Due to the recoil generated by some of these cartridges extreme caution must be advised as to scope brand. We have had the best success with Schmidt & Bender holding up to the heavier recoiling calibers.

Hmmm, Looks familiar.

Thanks for opening that can of worms 5...4....3...2...1

What does our military use other then S&B and Nightforce ?..I think that says it all right there

I have one S&B, a 4x Classic, and even that scope is right at 16 oz. They get heavier from there. The optics are very fine and perhaps with present knowledge there is no way to make them lighter while keeping the same toughness and quality but I don't know that for a cold & hard fact.

I do know that for my hunting rifles I generally want a lot lighter optic and also realize I may be sacrificing something in durability and optical quality by my other choices but that's often subjective too. And, that's not to mention there quite high price, sometimes 2x to 3x the competition.