Help me out guys..
My lupy has 1/4 clicks. I have it zero'd at 200 yds. How many clicks in elavation up to get a 300 yd zero?

The bullet will drop 9 inches from 200 to 300.

At 200 yards 1 click is a 1/2 inch correct?
How many clicks to move 1 inch at 300 yards?
How many clicks to move 9 inches at 300 yards?
Thanks, Ken

At 300 yards 1 click is 3/4", so 2 clicks is 1 1/2". To move 9" at 300 yards would require 12 clicks

Things are easier-for me anyway-if you use 100yards as your baseline. How high do you have to be at 100yd to be on at 300yd and then make your clicks from there.

It doesn't matter if he is zero'ed at 200 yards, the fact that he is 9" low at 300 determines the number of clicks or "come-ups" needed for 300 yards

Ok, I'm not sure if I know what you mean.
I want to keep the 200 yd zero and I believe that puts the bullet about 2" high at 100 yds. Whats next?

Your answer is here






What else are you looking for?

JWP,your first answer was good and helpful, 12 clicks was the answer I had in mind also. I do want to keep a 200 yard zero so my original question was answered.Thanks.
If some else has a differnt way of doing things or a different way of explaining it, I'm all ears, thats how we learn, Ken

Be sure and test those figues at the range and they can vary from scope to scope.

Be sure and test those figues at the range and they can vary from scope to scope.

You can say that again...grin.

DJ

Only if the scope doesn't track properly

I know what you mean, but it is easier for me to think in relation to 100yds as dead on, +2in (8clicks) in this case for 200yd, then perhaps +5in at 100yards for a 300yard zero. With the 100yard baseline all clicks are in 1/4in instead of using 3/4s to go from 200 to 300yards.

IOW I use a 100yard zero and move up from there instead of a 200yard zero base.

If I guy is gonna get into clickin' and dickin' <grin> then what *I* find to be most intuitive and generally most user friendly is something along the lines of what battue is saying. To wit:

Zero at 100 yards. Zero your turret.

You want to run a 200-yard zero in the field? Easy. Click up to it. You want to run a 300 yard zero? Same-same. You want to run a 500 yard zero? Click up to it.

That last is a bit tongue in cheek since nobody runs a 500-yd zero. But the nugget o' truth is right there. Once you start clicking, you are, in essence, re-zeroing your scope.

BUT, I like the 100-yd zero baseline for a couple reasons. First, most of the time, I actually prefer to have my rifle zeroed at 100 yards due to the fact that I hunt in thick stuff close up much of the time. Second, finding a spot to check a 100-yd zero, or to re-zero after changing scopes or whatever, is really easy. 300 yards, not so much.

In essesence it doesn't matter how one does it. Figure it out, write your ups on a card and have it handy. I just like to work with the 1/4click format.

I have never heard of anything so utterly complicated.........after listening to this stuff I wonder how I ever managed to kill anything the past 30+ years.......whew......

Only on the internet do we have game animals standing around long enough at 300 yards so you can click up to a 300 yards zero.......or guys so good off -hand in the brush that they can actually detect a 1/2 to 1" rise in bullet trajectory at 50-100.....especially when dealing with an animal with a 12" vital zone.....honestly this stuff is funny, no wonder the poor OP..

JWP is right about adjustments.........for years the objectives was to get and maintain a proper zero in a hunting rifle.Once attained you NEVER touched it............I wouldn't trust 2/3's of the scopes out there to reliably and consistently click to the right place every time....and it's especially unnecessary to 350-400 yards if you choose the right cartridge and know how to use it.Maybe this stuff is good for hitting golf balls at 400 yards.....but for big game this is a waste of time.....at least to the distances mentioned.

Bob,

I agree and disagree. Much of this isn't needed on BG animals and out to 300 top of the back hold will get the job done with most cartridges.

Where I disagree is that no one mentioned anything about detecting or caring about a 1/2 to 1in rise in trajectory at 50 and 100yards or shooting offhand, nor is it complicated. The third thing is that I'm not shooting at 300yards-we both know it would be rare for 300 to be the exact distance-unless the animal is standing around long enough for me to get into a solid field position. Spinning a turret would not change the amount of time it took to do so.

From your posts I think we practice much the same. A little bench and more messing around from field positions at various distances. I can tell you that for me my hitting percentage has increased and group size decreased at 400 out to 500 by spinning turrets and holding dead on.

Addition: If I ever do decide to shoot at those ranges and probably that will never occur, my confidence to do so is greater now. Like most learning curves it usually evolves small steps that eventually add up to a long stride.

In a previous PM I told you my furthest shot on game has been at 335yd and as someone else has posted the less space between me and an animal the more I like it. I made it with a fxIII 4x with a 3min dot. So yes turrets are not necessary at the ranges you mentioned. However, they do add another advantage to shooting longer range once one becomes familiar with them. Holding dead on is never a disadvantage and at the ranges I'm writing about the clicks have been more than consistent enough to take advantage of the ability to do so.

I've had lots and lots of Leupolds over the last almost 40 years, and I've learned that seldom do they consistently track w/ the legend. The best I've had have been older M8 4x28s (won a silhouette match w/ one on a 30-06 decades ago, "dialed in" each set of targets). Bottom line here - the click factor is a crap shoot; you are likely in for a lot of correction/over correction until it slowly moves where you want it. Once there, my experience is that they stay. Really frustrating getting there, though.

I still believe they are the best scopes out there for reliability, but they are not perfect.

Battue I was not refering to you at all on this;t'was Jeff's post on the 50-100 yard stuff....Jeff O and I have this little conversation going about zeroing POA at 100 yards.....I say it's silly and he loves it.

A rifle zeroed for 275 yards is only about 3/4" high at 50.....no one can hold that finely under brush hunting conditions to matter,and handicapping themselves with a short range zero for brush shooting just makes no sense to me at all.

But now that you mention it.....

I understand turrets instill confidence at the range, but game shooting is different....targets stand stationary at known distance;animals don't.That buck that you lazed at 500,and clicked up to but missed,hits a draw and winds up at 350 yards below you....now what? You just changed the whole ballgame by messing with your zero!

Now, you are totally screwed.....good luck figuring that one out in the 5 seconds he gives ya!

I can't see a valid reason for touching a rifle's zero for shots to 400.Too much additional complication for me.To me, the theory of clicking evaporates in the realities of a lot of BG shooting.There is enough to worry about...I am not going to change my rifle's zero while I am hunting....at least for the distances I shoot.....

Things frequently break too fast in BG hunting to be messing with changing zero's OMHO.

And I never took any offense, your not the kind of man to throw it out there unless it is called for.

I just started messing around with turrets and I definitely see your point. Just trying to lean something new. But damn you have some fast Deer in your neck of the woods if they can cover 150yards in 5 seconds.

Ken, This may help you.
100 yrds one over four IE at 100 yards you have the one over the four which is 1/4 inch/click
200 = the two over the four 2/4 =1/2 inch/click
300 =3/4 = 3/4 inch/click
400 =4/4 =one inch/click
Clear as mud for you probably but it works for me. Dean

I'm with ya.. I'm just sitting here in the weeds eating my popcorn, enjoying the show.

Who said anything about hunting at 400 yards?

I do appreciate all the help and thoughts though.. Ken

Hi Bob,

I didn't word it well it appears.

What I was saying to the OP, or trying to (it's surprisingly hard for me to communicate this) is that he can easily run say a 300 yard zero, or 250, or whatever- just like you do while ALSO having the benefits of a 100-yd baseline zero on the rifle.

For instance, the turret on the '06 next to me here is nominally zeroed out at 100 yards. I would indeed run it that way for my blacktails but that another topic. Let's say I'm in more open country and would like instead to be running a 250-yd zero. I click it 10 clicks, and now I am walikng around with a rifle set up basically just like yours, with all the advantages of an MPBR-esque zero.

Of course our savvy turret operator can still be clickin' and dickin' at a specific target- say a deer at 440 yards- but that's not really what I was talking about.

It's actually quite an elegant approach. It just requires a scope you trust to track correctly.

It's also a leap of faith, to be sure.

battue;Not trying to discourage you from having fun This is why we do this stuff..........

A big buck in New Brunswick that came over the crest of a power line,angling toward me,turned 430 yards into 375 in the time it took me to drop into a sit.I lazed those distances next morning reviewing the fiasco that followed .....I may have exagerated a bit on covering 150 yards in 5 seconds(although I bet they can do it),but my point is that they can move fast enough, far enough,in a hunting situation that the zero you carefully attained by clicking can be worthless in seconds.

I never have really seen anything that substantially improves on a 2-3" high zero at 100(depending on velocity and bullet and keeping mid-range under control)for the wide variety of random opportunities that can happen,or accrue in seconds,when a guy is hunting,and within 400 yards.Depending on multiples zero's to hit within those distances is folly IMHO.

You can certainly use both methods in the same rifle,and for long deliberate shots (say past 400 yards)the ability to click up can be useful for sure......my point is don't depend on it.Know how to hit out to 400 without it.

Jeff: You said it just fine and I understand...your quote above sums up my feelings on the issue....I don't trust the scopes,or let me say that there are only certain ones I would trust for the tactic...and I know many do,and that they work....but the method is just not for me,because I have found over the years that the less messing around a guy does in the presence of game the better off he is....

What is interesting to me is the amount of ink that gets spilled here and elsewhere,preparing for LR(past 400 yards) shots that never materialize

What amazes me is for a seemingly smart dude just how [bleep] obtuse you are when it comes to this.

Thinking that being on zero at 100 yards is silly, shows you don't understand every hunting situation. Not understanding that plunking rocks at 473 yards makes those 213 yard shots a chip shot. Thinking that looking at a critter in the very lower part of your bino's is better than having it planted in the center.


It's great that it isn't for you Bob, I'm pretty damn certain damn near everything in your life isn't for me, thank Christ, but please carry on in Oldman fashion

Complicated it ain't either, though I admit some folks like to make it so.

Critter is 312 yards, I spin the dial on my 250AI to the 3.5 mark and dead on, I don't count [bleep]. Thought I'm pretty certain that spinning it to a number is pretty complicated for the more obtuse, so again continue on as the humor in your ignorance is humorous Bob. Much akin to JO doing his typical 223 sucks ass for deer, though he's never used one. I really enjoy the folks that don't have the first [bleep] clue but continue to hammer on.

Scott,don't get your panties in a wad..... I'm not telling you what method to use......I'm simply playing "devils advocate".

You'll have to forgive me for not spending a ton of time plinking rocks;but that said I have killed game(and a fair amount of it)from 20 feet or so to about 500 yards,and on more than a few occaisions.And with the same sight setting that I customarily use.....and with a pretty good track record I think.

I'd zero a 458 at 100 yards.......but that's about "it".My point here is that killing a BG animal to 400 yards requires a lot less in the way of contemporary gizmo's than many think.......

I just wonder what you've learned about shooting BG animals between New Jersey and Alaska that I mighta missed in 40+ years of covering pretty much the same turf...

I've been accused of being a lot of things....but "obtuse" isn't one of them.......dats a "first"

Glad to see the coals still have some life.

Bob, I definitely can see where your coming from as I've done it that way long enough to be hesitant to change. However, I'm starting to see the advantage of being allowed to hold dead on even at moderate LR. There is less guessing when you can do so. I admit a deer can outpace my ability to click, but in more than a few hunts, memory says that none would have done so.

Again if I'm shooting at 300plus, I'm trying eliminate as much guessing as possible. Do you now use a range finder or do you just guess at range when it's past your comfort zone? I now do because I've discovered since having one I'm not that good at guessing when things are getting stretched and certain terrain can fool me.

Here in Pa. a 100yard zero is a good place to be. It covers most situations, but situations do present them-self when 100yards and under would be the exception and turrets start to have value. Again, if I'm shooting longer the animal is in most cases unaware of my presence and there is time to do some dicking. If it is out a way and running I'm not shooting anyway, so nothing lost.

So far the M1 I have is proving its repeatability enough that the confidence is building. It doesn't have to be exact anymore than your intuitive high is exact. You have 12in to play with-don't you wish -and the M1 does also.

Just because we are older dogs, doesn't mean we can't learn some new tricks. Learning to post pics on the fire was harder than getting the basics of turrets down.

.

I"m no expert in this, but I"ll say that I haven't zero'd any gun at 100 in many years. Except one lever gun 32-20 thats a 50 yard gun period and is zero'd as such......

All my guns have either a 200 or 300 yard base zero and the knowledge of how much MOA it takes to get to other distances.

Those that are afraid to turn their dials should just mount the scope, shoot it without ever touching it, and just learn to hold off if you are scared about adjustments. Noting thats exactly what the knobs are made for.....

Even a 300 yard zero doesn't kill me on close shots... I know my zero's and simply hold bottom of the chest...

I've made more than 1-2 head shots at various ranges with guns so zero'd.... and once you know your load its no biggie at all.

So back to the question... how do you get from 200 -300 with a 9 inch drop... at 300 yards you'd shoot as is, the bullets would supposedly hit 9 inches low, how much do you correct AT 300 if they are 9 inches low? MOA is almost an inch per 100 yards... that means MOA at 300 is 3 inches... divide the 9... 3MOA.... tells you all you need to know if you know your scope and it tracks... whether its MOA, 1/2, 1/4, 1/8 moa, you just multiply by the back figure... if it was 1/8 moa clicks... 3x8=24.... for the 1/4... 3x4=12..... hmm JWP hit that EARLY on this thread.....

Rost,
Thanks, I know the MOA approximations, but was stuck on doing things from 100yd. Thanks for another puzzle piece.

Addition:
One of the advantages of a 100yard zero here in Pa. is that we do often shoot at running deer that are 100 and under. Hard enough to time the ups and downs of running deer and hold low with a 300yard zero at the same time. However, I agree if all ones shots are at relatively calm animals one can do that.

OK, my two cents.
I basically use both systems when appropriate. Said another way, it depends on how much time I think I have vs. how much precision I think I must have.
First of all, I assume I'll have very little time to get into a steady enough shooting position and get the shot off well enough to hit the animal properly. This can be the case when it may not be apparent at the first.
That means I pick a scope and set it up for that. I prefer the Leupold nine inch spacing of their duplex as it means I can both range and hold off/holdover over very quickly.
I use whatever zero doesn't cause any mid ranges misses on smaller targets like coytoes even if the shot is a little high. In my expereince, that means between 2.25 and 2.75 inches up at 100 yds. To make sure, I test at both 200 yds and even 150 yds. when I can.
Being able to dial in a precise range does have it practical aspects for ranges under 400 yds.
One would be shooting through a hole in cover. If the opening is only 6-8 inches in diameter, I don't want the shot going 2-3 inches high. So i dial down the zero.
If I've got a longer shot, and I must hold into the wind, I don't want to have to hold high as well. The fewer things I need to do when making the shot, the better.
Some scopes can't be trusted to dial up and down, and some can. Only extensive testing and shooting will tell you if you have one. I, for one, feel it can be valuable under certain conditions, so I will go to the trouble of testing my scopes for this quality. E

E, what is this 9 in. spacing of the duplex you mention?How do you use this spacing to your benefit? Interesting..

I've been fortunate enough to peruse Bob's hunting photo albums. I'd say the KISS applique has worked quite nicely for him.

E is correct and the standard Leupold duplex has a definite amount of subtension which can be measured either from the center of crosshairs to the bottom post,or from post to post;for example a 4X Duplex subtends about 8" at 100 yards from the intersection of crosshair to tip of the bottom post( IIRC it is actually about 7.5 but I always used the 8" figure.....a mature bull elk will measure 30-32" hairline to hairline through the chest.

If his chest fits this "bracket", I could tell at a glance he was about 400 yards away,and a 400 yard hold with a 300 magnum or 7 magnum (drop of about 10" at 400 yards with my loads)will drop easily into the chest cavity.

I have used the method to kill a couple of big 6 points at around 450-475 yards.

(For those interested, the bottom post of a 4X Leupold is the "aiming point" at 600 yards for a 300 magnum or 7 magnum zeroed POA at 300 yards. Yes I've shot both combo's at actual distance to verify).

With a 2.5-8, or a fixed 6, you can mess with the powers to obtain a similar relationship on smaller big game like MD, antelope,whitetails etc.

Of course none of this is as precise as a LRF and turrets once distance gets past 500 yards or so, but it is surprisingly accurate,can be verified by shooting actual distances at animal targets of accurate size,and may work for you when a LRF will not due to circumstances.

Folks seem to assume that hold over is "guessing", but they forget that you have an additional frame of reference, which is the animal itself.This is far from guessing...the frames of reference are: The velocity/trajectory of your load verified by actual shooting(not reading ballistic charts on your computer); your "zero";the subtension of your reticle,and the animal.Yes it is true animals do not come in standard sizes,but most mature mule deer bucks will be about 18" through the chest.

Another aspect to this is after you have spent enough time actually shooting BG animals with certain fixed power scopes, you ability to determine distance at a very quick glance, and with enough precision for one shot kills at distance,gets sort of etched into your head.

I figured this stuff out just like others who use the method,(like E and John B,who has also written about it);through shooting thousands of rounds at the range and actually killing BG animals using the method.I have also used the method a few times to walk away from shot opportunities that I thought were too doubtful.These were in the 550-600 yard range.


All this occured in the days before I became "obtuse".....

Bob,

Excellent post. As previously mentioned, in the past I pretty much did it the way you described. I had a couple rifles and things were good. Then.... I started messing with more rifles and WTH if your going to get a new rifle you may as well try a new scope. Now I have more rifles than I need and more scopes sitting around than rifles. Fixed-with dots and duplex, variables-with dots and duplex, variable with B&C, fixed with a turret, you get the picture.

The only one whom I positive that is obtuse here is me. I can't keep it all straight. Perhaps I should just go back to the old way, but I've always chosen the winding path.

The angle from which one is looking often changes their perception.

Exactly..........

Ah, grasshoppas... <grin>....

I'm still gonna contend that with a trusted, verified scope, the most versatile method of all is (gag) Steelheads, which I am also using.

Run a turret, zero the rifle and turret at 100 yards, and if you want to instead run a Max Point Blank Range zero, or any OTHER zero, simply click to it in the field and be done with it.

If I want to be hitting 2" high at 100 yards, it's as simple as clicking 8 clicks up from my 100-yard zero. I do NOT mean doing this when you see a game animal. I mean, if say I took my 30-06 to Eastern Oregon mule deer hunting, which I plan to be doing here real soon, I just click the damn thing up to MPBR or 2" high at 100 or whatever, and I'm walking around with a rifle set up just like Bob's. BUT, I retain the advantages of a 100-yd zero on tap, and they are tangible advantages in the thick stuff, and I retain the ability to click up to a very precise 477 yard shot if time, capabilities, and circumstances allow.

So that's the angle I'm coming at it from. The angle of Truth. The angle of Justice. The angle of Power. The angle of All That is Proper.

<big grin>

Enjoying the dialog guys.

I am with Bob on the thick stuff. All my scopes previously have been set up at 2in high at 100 and finding a spot is not a problem at least for my thick stuff. The more I think about it my turret scope will be the same. I'm comfortable with it, and the turrets can be used for the longer stuff if needed.

I know nobody gives a RA, and that is probably the way it should be.

That's a bunch of angles. Are any of them an obtuse angle?

I am LMAO on this thread....lotsa fun...Battue,I may set up a rifle with turrets and play around me self......

I will hunt with it in 2040 LOL!

Question for those who zero at 100 yards and like it because they hunt in brush.....how far "under" the line of sight do the bullets impact at 10-75 yards or so with a scope sighted rifle? Or do they?

Oops. I meant ANGELS. The ANGEL of Truth. The angel of Justice. The angel Big Boobs. They are all on my side.

Be careful, sounds like a dance on the dark side for you.

No time for clicken and dicken.
Not hard to tell those that talk from those that do.


dave

Not trying to offend anyone, but 98% of the hunters out there should not even attempt shots over 200yds. They don't have the rifles, ammo, optics, or skill to use them.

laffin'


Took a buddy out on the weekend with some rifles...600ml water bottles at 500+ yards were not a problem....His first round hit of a water bottle the size of a ground squirrel had him hooked. And that was from resting over a pack laying on the ground.

AND that was with a sporter-weight 223AI using ballistically inefficient 40gr vmax's, that were zero'd at 100 yards......Let him shoot a tidy little cluster at 100, then told him to look at the card and spin the turret accordingly and bust stuff at will.

Pulling out a 7mag with 162 amax's when the wind came up to about a 10-20km/hr cross-wind was childs play to hit a 10" steel gong.

Last thing he said as we drove away, was "who'd of thought it was just that easy."

This might be a little easier.

You want to keep your 200 yard zero. Your bullet drops 9 inches at 300 yards.

What do you suppose would happen if you held at the top of the animals back (at 300 yards), and pulled the trigger?