Thinking about hitting the switch on this 6 X 42 for $250. Will the reticule track worth a darn?
SWFA SS 6x42 Rifle Scope DEMO-B


MSRP: $800.00
Finish: Matte
Reticle: Mil-Dot
Tube diameter: 30mm tube
1/4 moa target knobs
Fast focus eye piece
Rear parallax adjustment

I know one guy who had one on his 308 wanna be a sniper rifle. He liked it pretty well.

Tasco, I believe. They are very good scopes for the money IMO.

I thought Bushnell had purchased Tasco a couple years back?????

Tasco made them way back when. I believe Tasco went out of business some years back.

Now the brand is owned by SWFA. They are made in Japan somewhere. Probably Hakko, but that's pure speculation.

I like my 16X, bought it used, and have been using it myself for a few years now, on different rifles. No problems with tracking.

Hakko has not existed for a number of years. When it existed, Hakko never made Super Sniper scopes. SWFA does not talk about who makes it for some reason, so I won't either. However, I know the factory and they make quality stuff.

SWFA is a 100% owner of Super Sniper brand now. Since SWFA took over, glass was also upgraded a fair bit, so make sure you are getting a recently made one (last four years or so).

I have four different Super Sniper scopes including the on you have there and I could not be happier with them. Great scopes for the money.

ILya

They are an imported scope. Made to spec by one of the big boys over seas.

Tasco started the line. But Tasco never made the scope. But then Tasco never "made" any scope. Tasco was strictly an importer and a "trade name". They bought something someone else made then put their name on it.

The optics world is shrinking in manufacturers, and growing in trade names. "Super Sniper" is one more of those scopes. Imported by SWFA, and sold by SWFA, but not mfrd. by SWFA.

Personally I stay away from trade name scopes. I want to deal with the rel mfg. The trade name scopes just put one more person in the distribution chain, thus contributing more profit to seller, with less value to the buyer.

And basically any warranty offered by trade name companies are not worth the paper the warrany is written on. I have seen many "lifetime warranty" companies come and go over the years in optics. Most have been trade name firms. Tom.

The Super Sniper line is a known quantity as is SWFA customer service. Some folks don't like them, but that's more subjective, than objective.

For $299, the rear-focus models are a lot of bang for the buck. Rugged, good eye relief, mildot, parallax control, plenty of erector travel for LR play. They're are a good serviceable unit.

FWIW, I'll take the recommendations of Shane and Ilya any day, and run with it.

I guess you'll have to throw Leupold into your equation then HOGGHEAD, since their green ring series are imported from Asia.

I have the 10X42 model with rear focus and have been using it on my .22 silhouette rifle.

We shoot from 40 yards to 200 so it gets a full 23 minutes of elevation up and down with checkpoints at 50, 75, 100 and 150. It tracks just great, in fact I wish all my Leupolds tracked this well.

Optics are plenty good as well.

Knowing that a .22 isn't stressing it like a .408 CheyTac and spotting .22 rimfire splashes at 200 yards doesn't take Nikon SE quality, but I am very satisfied with the price/performance.

You are absolutely right. And I will not buy the imported Leupold products. You assume correctly.

I guess my opinion is not popular about SS scopes, or other trade name scopes. But yet no one addresses exactly what I said about the problems with a trade name product. I guess you find it easier to attack the messenger. Instead of the message. So please tell me where I am wrong in the context that I wrote-rather than to attack the messenger?? Please do. Tom.

If you know the factory then you should share that information. Making a blanket statement as you did does not convey any facts-just mere opinion. Back that up. Or is it just some super secret kept between the men-and the boys should never know??

The OP asked "who builds the scopes". You say you know. But you won't tell him who makes them?? I do not understand. Is there a big secret?? Or better yet a conspiracy?? Or do they have diferent mfrs. that build to different specs?? Maybe us boys just shouldn't be privvy to that information??

The factory that you speak of builds to spec.?? Correct?? So you should say that factory has the ability to produce some very fine product. But do they not also make scopes to lesser specs. for cheaper trade name companies??

I am not attacking the quality of Super Sniper Scopes. Nor am I attacking the credibility of SWFA. I have bought two high end optics from SWFA and have been very satisfied with the results of my dealings with SWFA. But the truth is the truth. Please tell me where I am wrong about my assumptionms of trade name products??

I actually have one of the older Tasco Super Sniper scopes. And it is a decent scope. It was well worth what I paid for it. However I would not pay premium prices for it. And that is what SWFA charges for "some" of the SS scopes. And believe me when I tell you that the main reason why SWFA handles SS scopes is because they have an incredible profit margin on that line of scopes because it is proprietary, and a trade name. Tom.

Ilya, For your info, Hakko is alive and well, in Australia at least.

http://accurateshooters.australianwebsitedevelopment.com.au/hakko-precision-optics.html

I've got one of the Superb 2.5-10x scopes and it's a nice bit of gear for the price.



Vortex!!! no factory, but very solid product support. That's just one, I'm sure there's more..

Tom, do you lie awake at night wondering which Asian country makes the lenses for your Leupolds? and do you wonder why Leupold won't say who makes their lenses??

To the OP,

I had been waiting (and waiting, and waiting, and...) for the new Vortex PST to be available for my 6.5-284. Finally, with 'lope season right around the corner I canceled my order and got the SS 10x42 rear focus instead. I did a LOT of research on the things before I pulled the trigger thinking that maybe the price point vs. stated performance was 'too good to be true'. Much of the knowledge gleaned was from the opticstalk forum where Ilya has shared much of his knowledge/experience. The VAST majority (if not all) of the reviews I read were all complimentary with most emphasizing the Super Snipers durability and ACCURATE and REPEATABLE tracking. That is what convinced me to take the plunge (and SWFA's C.S.). I have only used mine since August but I have twisted the turrets plenty in that time and they have always tracked and returned perfectly. I have been quite satisfied with mine.

P.S. The Super Snipers also seem to hold their value very well. The used ones I saw were selling for only about $20-$30 under new so I just bought new.So, if for some reason you get one and don't like it, I'm sure you could sell it pretty easily at little loss.

HoggHead, I could care less what people use/like/don't like and for whatever reasons they have. That's their business. Just because someone is an importer as you say, doesn't mean they don't have quality customer service. Charles @ Zen Ray has gone above and beyond in the CS department and many have raved about him and Zen Ray. You can't lump them all together and be accurate, that's all. I've personally sold or given away all my glass except for Swaro and Leupold and a Leica Rangefinder. Not attacking anyone BTW.

I'm guessing the SS scopes are made by LOW in Japan, but that's just a guess.

First off I agree with you about the Leupold's. IMO it is pretty sad what Leupold has lowered themselves to.

The second point would be the Vortex you speak of. So my question to you is how long has Vortex been in business?? Do you expect them to be around in 30 or 40 years?? Personally I don't. Most trade name companies come and go in much shorter terms than 30 or 40 years. Yet we have had Leupold's fixed for free that were 30 or 40 years old. That is tough to beat. If Vortex is here in 30 years then I will reconsider my stance to Vortex. But they have a long way to go.

Don't think in the short term. Think in the long term like 30 or 40 years and tell me how many are stil around?? Not very many trade name companies still around. But there are a few mfrs. who market their own product. Just an opinion. But to me a lifetime warranty means a a persons lifetime. And that is 30 or 40 or more years hoepfuly. Tom.

Hey, don't you think your sarcasm and hostility was a bit out of line there? I don't see where Ilya or anyone else said anything to provoke your (over)reaction.

He explained in his post why he isn't saying-- because he knows the SWFA folks very well, knows the origin of the SS, and they asked him not to say, so he's honoring their wishes. Anyone who knows Ilya knows full well that: 1. He's well connected in the optics world, and 2. He doesn't say anything unless he's pretty damn certain of what he's telling someone. In this case, he merely intended to reassure people that the company who manufactures the SS isn't a "fly by night" operation, and they know how to make good scopes.

On the "trade name" companies thing, I would venture to say your definition applies to MOST optics and most optics companies, certainly all optics made in Japan. If you truly are planning to avoid buying any optics not actually manufactured by the company whose name is emblazoned on the product, your list of options are very small.

Here is a direct quote from Chris @ SWFA in response to the "who makes 'em" question:

"This comes up all the time and I don't understand why.

I think that people think that companies like Bushnell, Night Force, Simmons, Millett, etc. all have their own factories and that they build scopes for smaller companies in their factories. This is not the case. The only companies that have their own manufacturing facilities reside in Germany and Austria with a few other exceptions. Everything else comes from factories scattered all over the orient that are not owned by any name brand. The days of a company actually producing their own products in house is long gone.

Another common misconception is relating one name brand to another. For instance the guy asking was probably looking to get an answer like, Bushnell. Then he would assume that our scope is the same as a particular Bushnell scope. Most of these factories are capable of producing extremely high end scope all the way down to Barfska type scopes. You supply them with the specs and they build it. You supply them with a budget and they'll hit it.

Even if we told you the name of the factory you would not know any more than you do right now because it is not relevant and has no bearing for comparison sake. For instance if I told you that our scopes are made in The Ping Pang Chow factory in Japan, what would you have learned about our products?

With a large pile of money you could travel the orient and come to market with The Ranger007 scope line and it could be whatever you want it to be from NightForce quality to BSA quality and there are many factories that could do it. They have "house" scopes already designed that they can just glue your logo on if you like. That is why you see so many scopes that look alike with different names on them because these smaller companies did not design anything, they just wanted a scope line with their name on it. These off the shelf scopes are typically mass produced low budget scopes.

We have taken a completely different approach with our products. They are not off the shelf, they are all custom, proprietary designs built to our specifications and our specifications are strict and tight with no compromises in regards to final product integrity. We keep the bean counter out of all design meetings (sorry Mom). If we can save 50 cents by making something out of plastic instead of an alloy we typically opt to spend an extra 50 cents and make it out of hardened steel. Same with our glass and coatings recipes.

This business model would not work if our products had to go through the normal channels of distribution because the mark up and overhead would have them prices way out of the market."

Be advised that Leica has had to financially restructure a time or two already, so nothings a gimme. Who knows who will be around in another 10-20-30 years. I do think the higher quality Chinese glass we see today are a real threat to the livelihood of all optics companies and their future, especially the Europeans. They have made great strides already, and will only get better over time, and will most assuredly be substantially cheaper than even the Euros and even the Japanese. No end in sight to higher quality, cheaper priced Chinese glass.

Although the brand Vortex hasn't been around for very long, the company that owns the brand (Sheltered Wings, in Middleton, Wisconsin) has already been in business for 25 years, so they aren't new to the optics industry.

I tend to agree JG, however so long as there are guys out there with more money than brains, the "Big Three" will chug right along.

A few comments:
-The world of completely vertically integrated companies making sporting optics no longer exists. Very few do it and they are very expensive. Even Zeiss does not make every piece of every scope they make. They do everything on the high end scopes, but for the Conquests, for example, the glass is outsourced to another european company in order to keep the price reasonable.

-In the modern business world, no company is guaranteed to be here ten years from now, much less thirty years from now. Worrying about that is pointless. The fact that particular company has been around for a long time, does not mean that it will still be here. I used to work in telecom world. Care to look up what happened to some of the giants there Nortel, Lucent, etc?

-As I said above, if a company does not want to disclose where exactly they manufacture their products, I think it is common courtesy on my part to honor their wishes. I am sorry it makes people all poochy-faced, but I put a lot of stock into a simple notion that you should treat people the same way you want them to treat you. A little common courtesy goes a long way.

-Lastly, if you are trying to decide whether to buy a product manufactured by a particular company, look at how the product performs. Try to find out if the company is well run. Beyond those two things, there is little you can do.

ILya

Why would it be pointless if a company is here in 10 years or not if that company is offering a lifetime warramnty?? Please explain that.

I apologize if I have offended anyone here. That was not my intent. My intent was to have a discussion. I just have an opposing point of view.

I think it is very relative for a company that offers a lifetime warranty if such said company has been around for 30 years. And I definitely want to make sure they are going to be around to honor that warranty in 30 years?? So how could not being around in 10 years be irrelevant??

I mostly buy high end optics. By that I mean glass with a minimal cost of $700 or $800. So I darn sure want them to be around for many many years to come.

And sorry to say the trade name companies have a poor track record for longevity. So paying $700 for a Vortex PST would be a big mistake as I see it.

Buying one of the cheaper SS scopes might not be a bad idea. But I have little faith in that warranty being worth anything in 15 or 20 years. Just an opinion. Tom.

Thanks guys!


I learned more than I had hoped to. I am sure Shane puts higher demands upon his optics than I ever will. If the product performs satisfactorily for him and the other folks who chimed in above, I am willing to bet the $250 it will do what I want.

My most commonly used rifles are presently equipped with a 6-18 Bushnell Trophy, a 4-12 Trophy, a 4-12 Burris FF, and an old Weaver 2.5-7 X 32. They all do the job, once they are zeroed. But they are all prone to a common problem. They need three to five shots before they settle in after a reticule adjustment.

It is tough to play with range and turrets that way. I am glad the SS can be counted on to work in that manner and still stay within my budget.

Thanks especially to Ilya for your thoughtful and informative discussion.

Tom, that's where you and I are different on warranties.

I don't own any 30yr old optics and in all honesty, I probably never will. Optics quality is improving all the time and if I had reason to get a company to honour a warranty on the 30yr old scope, I would still have at the end of the process, a 30yr old scope.

That holds no interest for me at all.

I think it's perfectly reasonable to be concerned whether a company will be around long term to honor a warranty. The point is, you won't nor can't ever know for certain any company will be in business tomorrow, even those who have been in business for a long time.

Again, your Vortex example doesn't fit your template, as they've been in business for 25 years already. Ever heard of Eagle Optics? Same company owns that brand name as Vortex. Their future in the optics business is every bit as secure as Leupold, maybe more so.

Also, with all due respect, you have a major misconception of the realities of modern manufacturing. If we strictly adhere to your definition, almost all optics companies would be categorized as "trade name companies," because there are no manufacturers in existence who make all components of all of their products entirely in-house anymore.

Question for you... which optics companies do you think make all of their own products, and what is your definition of "make?"

Rifle Dude those are all good points you make. There are very few companies that do that. Most of my optics are Zeiss, Swarovski, and Leupold. And for the most part they make or manufacture most of their product. Probably not all, but most. And those three have been around for 30 years+. And I do have some of their optics that are that old. And they still function well.

As far as Vortex is concerned. No, I am not real familiar with Eagle Optics. Are they still in business?? What type of warranties did they have??

Again I am in no way trying to attack the quality of SS or Vortex. And I have heard great things about both. It has just been my experience with trade name companies in the sporting goods industry that trade names change hands fairly frequently.

I worked for the parent company of Charles Daly for a good many years. And I also sold several other trade name products that my company owned. and I have witnessed trade names like Charles Daly, Bersa, TimberKing, CatchMaster, Tasco, Simmons, Bushnell, and many other companies over the years go in and out of business. And be bought and sold to different entities. And about every time they were transferred the waranties were not transferred. A big one would be RedField. The RedField name has been owned by several companies over the past 30 years. Now Leupold owns the name. They will probably sell it in 5 or 10 years. And I doubt if the new company will honor the warranty that Leupold is now putting on the scope. I might be wrong about that, but I don't think so. Tom.

As a matter of fact, Leupold is just a machine shop. They machine their tubes and most mechanical parts. They don't make springs, fasteners, o-rings, etc. and they outsource their lenses from Asia. Zeiss is a huge company, and they outsource quite a bit of their products. They outsource the glass in their Conquest series, for example. Some of their optics are made entirely in Japan. Swaro doesn't make their own glass; they get it from at least 2 different suppliers.

Yes, Eagle Optics is still in business. They are both a major optics retailer as well as having their own house brand by the same name. Eagle mainly caters to the birdwatching community. I don't know what the warranty is on the EO branded optics, but the Vortex brand includes much more high-end, upscale optics than Eagle and Vortex products have an unconditional lifetime warranty.

As an answer to the OP: Just might be Light Optics.

same questions can be asked: who makes XXX riflescopes. replacing XXX with Vortex, Bushnell, Simmons. To me, it really doesn't matter.

The point that Ted and ILya are trying to make is that if someone supplied the OEM name it is inconsequential. When dealing with companies like Light Optical Works, Asia Optical LLC or Kenko they are capable of producing average, good and excellent optical products. What's more important, IMO is the company that sticks their name on the product and how they service it after the sale.

The SS is a good enough scope to reveal all the other flaws found in one's gear and shooting ability.

Good kit for the money spent.

+1

I dont care who makes it. I think my SS 3-9 is one heck of a deal, FFP with a mill reticle and matching adjustments for $600 puts it in its own class. I will not be shy about saying you will need to spend twice the money to get a compable scope with regard to features, glass quality and excellent tracking.

How's the eye relief? The spec is pretty short on that model.

I dont know what the specs are but I can tell you on a medium weight .308 and a Tikka T3 .270 eye relief has not been an issue at all. I actually use it quite a bit on 3x and 9x and have not had to make any conscious changes in head position regardless of magnification.

It's spec'd at only 77mm at 9x, just a hair over 3", and that's a bit close for my taste.

I'm interested to find out if it really is that short.

Mathman what is the proper method of checking it? Do I simply turn it up to 9x and then measure from the lense to my pupil when I have full clarity? Sorry if that sounds to simple but I have seen how anal some are about discussing technical specs on optics.

What was that song, Diggin' up Bones? I couldn't resist a blast from the past uncovered during a lengthy online search.

Remember the part about not shooting the messenger, ok?

Japanese-made scopes are almost all produced by LOW:

http://www.light-op.co.jp/english/

I always wonder if people dig up 7 year old threads for some purpose, or they just didn't check the date.............

I heard it’s owned by Walmart.

Please don't reply to every fuggin 7 yr old thread you find doing whatever fugging lengthy online search you do. Thanks in advance.

Probably, either or both.

Nothing wrong with an old thread. Not all of us have been here since Day 1.

Almost all, eh? I wonder if Sightron is a client.

ETA: I purchased a nice bin from EO during the waning reverberations of their swan song. All good things must come to an end they say.

Please don't allow the screen door smack your arse on the way out. Should one have a disdain for oldie moldy threads it would behoove them not to participate rather than help regenerate

Don't ya think mate?

Beware, that might be a trick question,

Ah yes, the false dichotomy; tres tres chic. Our next long distance dedication goes out to youse LeCreek. Del Shannon from 1961 BaH-BE!

To end this misery and I wonder,

I WAH, WAH, WAH, WAH, wonder ...

Wrong azz to be crawlin up “Mate.”

BTW, using the term Mate is fuggin gay. Mate.

This is a good example of the point HOGGHEAD was trying to make. Seven years ago Zen Ray was a darling of birdwatchers and hunters looking for good optics at cheap prices. Today Zen Ray is out of business and no one knows where Charles is, he's gone into hiding. Any warranty, of course, is worthless.

I have a pair of zen ray ed2's that I bought as demos for truck binoculars. They're good binos and worth the $250 I paid for them but if something goes wrong they're throw aways now. I'm glad I didn't pay full price banking on their "lifetime" warranty.

Looks like you were right in this instance, and I was wrong. Not the first time for me though.

You're a good man JG....

A few companies were repair shops for optics if future service is ever an issue. Contract Manufacturing doesn’t mean all products made by the same company get same levels of scrutiny. That’s true for quite a few industries. Electronics, optics, even vertically integrated companies focus more on their top tier models and mostly their high margin customers get extra inspections and customer service. It’s about value and/or perceived value. A purpose built $3k optic could leave more margin for extra scrutiny and Customers are going to demand more vs. a $200 run of the mill.

From reviews, it seems SWFA has exploited a hole in market and focused more on repeatability whole image was a secondary concern probably upgraded more as their CM upgraded glass/coatings in general. They found a niche and others who focused more on lens tech are most likely setup entirely for that end making it very hard to now change directions to catch up. Knowing the direction a market will turn and investing for it is a gamble.
As we say in the Start-Up world “It’s easy to be second”. The model of the big players “Buying the segment disruptor” is largely past IMO. Consumers have gotten used to the Electronics model in that before a model hits the retail shelf its been built, packaged, warehouses, and the company is 2 generations past it already.