Swaro Z5 or S&B classic - 24hourcampfire

Swaro Z5 3.5-18x44 or 3-12x42 classic? going on 280 AI M70.

Is the Swar a FFP?

dave

Having compared four z5's with other scopes costing much less and not being the least bit impressed I would go with the S&B.

Vital....

I've had both, sold the S&B. I didn't care for the reticle getting thicker as magnification increased. (I have a mental block if that's a FFP or SFP).

I'm currently running the Swaro you mentioned on a 7mm Dakota, and I like it a great deal.

I will say this though, both scopes are fairly heavy. If you're scoping a lightweight rifle I'd look elsewhere....

Originally Posted by nyrifleman

I've had both, sold the S&B. I didn't care for the reticle getting thicker as magnification increased. (I have a mental block if that's a FFP or SFP).

That's FFP, and it doesn't get thicker. What it does is not get thinner.

Thanks for the clarification.

I still don't care for it.

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Thanks for the clarification.

I still don't care for it.

Same here.

I feel that the S&B Classic is outdated zoom ratio wise. It may appear to be a 4x power range scope but depending on the model you barely get 3x effective zoom. Beyond 3x you get tunnel vision that shrinks the image size without increasing the field of view. All S&Bs have good resolution and as very solid but you pay for it in weight and these days also in $$$.

The Swaro is a true 5x zoom scope making it very versatile. Unless you want a FFP scope, I see no reason going for the S&B classic.

Aic

Originally Posted by vital_kill

Swaro Z5 3.5-18x44 or 3-12x42 classic? going on 280 AI M70.

I would buy Nikon 'Monarch' or something similar. The only time it pays to spend big money on top end Euro optics is when one needs scope with large objective like x56 to shoot in low light conditions like boar feeding in cabbage patch off high seat by moonlight. For most Americans buying insanely expensive scopes which they do not need is like wearing that overpriced watch with little crown on the dial.

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The only time it pays to spend big money on top end Euro optics is when one needs scope with large objective like x56 to shoot in low light conditions like boar feeding in cabbage patch off high seat by moonlight.

Or if one wants to see better than another similarly sized scope will allow in low light. My z5 with a 52mm is no better than my Bushnell 6500 with a 50mm during the day but come low light and it is definitely better.

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For most Americans buying insanely expensive scopes which they do not need is like wearing that overpriced watch with little crown on the dial.

Good thing you posted "most". But let's not confuse "need" with want. We could all get by with a Tasco 4-16X40 and I have used them a lot. But I want one that is better in low light and am willing to pay for it. The z5 does it.

What's wrong the the little crown on the dial?

I'd have one of those before replacing my M8 6x with a $2k rifle scope for the hunting I do.

But we're all different .... Its just I'm unique and you're [bleep]-up!! (see smiles below!)

Pretty hard to beat a 1.5-6x42 S&B Zenith Flash Dot.
From point blank to running and jumping to the standing 500 yard shot to that black pig, eating your corn at 11 PM on a moonless night.
dave

I questioned the sanity of laying down the coin for a S&B 4-16 PMII, but my gunsmith, a builder of extremely accurate long range hunting rifles, insisted they are simply the best. Do I need this scope for 1K yard marmots, probably not, there are other capable scopes for half what I have into this, but I have never looked through a scope that shows the incredible clarity and detail that this S&B does. I am suitably impressed for my money. I will say however, that unless I was shooting the little targets at the long ranges I am shooting at, it's capabilities could not be appreciated.

Not sure which 4-16 you have.
I have a 4-16x50 PMII.
Only scopes that will hang with it when the light gets low is another S&B.
dave

When Hartmann & Weiss magazine rifle comes in I will look at them. I kinda like Nickel AG 3-12x56 with L1 reticle.

Originally Posted by dave7mm

Not sure which 4-16 you have.
I have a 4-16x50 PMII.
Only scopes that will hang with it when the light gets low is another S&B.
dave

Guess again........

dave7mm, I have the same scope you have with Hollands' ART reticle.
I have not looked through the Zeiss Hensoldt or Premier Reticles, but they each have a following that believe they are best. From what I can tell, these 3 seem to be the best scopes on the planet and I would expect similar qualities in all of them.
If S&B had the scope I was looking for, with MOA instead of MIL turrets, instead of the Nightforce I would have another S&B on my light weight rifle as well.

no guessing required

....

dave

Guess they don't have Zeiss Victory's where you live......

Guess they don't have S&B Zenith's where you live......

I've seen all the high end stuff, with my own eyes, in the field. I'm not talking out my azz like you are. S&B is first rate stuff no doubt. Victory's are first rate stuff too.

Originally Posted by JGRaider

S&B is first rate stuff no doubt.

Your wrong about alot of things.
But your right about S&B.

dave

Originally Posted by dave7mm

Originally Posted by JGRaider

S&B is first rate stuff no doubt.

Your wrong about alot of things.
But your right about S&B.

dave

Like what? Some of the things you post are as laughable as E's.

Originally Posted by JGRaider

Originally Posted by dave7mm

Not sure which 4-16 you have.
I have a 4-16x50 PMII.
Only scopes that will hang with it when the light gets low is another S&B.
dave

Guess again........

Nothing to guess, it is simply the thruth. I have S&B, US Optics and Zeiss and the S&B's are the best in my eyes especialy in low light. The US Optic and the Zeiss Davari 6X24 are very good, but in low light the S&B blows them away. End of story

Are these S&B's almost as good as a Leupy 6x42 ?

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Are these S&B's almost as good as a Leupy 6x42 ?

Maybe he means 6-24X.

Originally Posted by Ringman

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Are these S&B's almost as good as a Leupy 6x42 ?

Maybe he means 6-24X.

Exactly, 6X24X56 to be precise

Every time I read where a S&B "blows everthing away including other high end optics", or vice versa, I have to laugh. If a guy were honest about it, and most aren't, if you could cover the logo and look through them side by side, you'd never know the difference between a S&B, Victory, Z6, or Leica's latest and greatest, and even a VX6/VX7. At least I haven't been able to.

Everytime I hear this crap I'm reminded of a mule deer hunter we had a couple of years ago. It was post dusk, and we were looking at a 185 class buck at about 400 yards. He had a S&B with that circle reticle (not sure what they call it), a 3-12x50 classic I believe. We had my buddy's 7STW with an older VXII 3-9x40 with us. We could of easily made that shot with either scope, out to legal shooting. Was the S&B brighter? Of course, but not "blows everything away" brighter.

Originally Posted by RDFinn

Are these S&B's almost as good as a Leupy 6x42 ?

I had a Summit that was fantastic. I also had a 6x42 FX3 at that time. The S&B was little, if any brighter at dark thirty, to my eyes anyway.

Obviously you guys have looked through a lot more top end scopes than I, but the most obvious thing I see through my S&B is not just great light, but razor sharp resolution, and the best color and contrast I have ever seen. Nothing I have looked through before matchs it.

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At least I haven't been able to.

There is the key! You think everyone sees the same as you do. That truly is like the teenager I worked with in the mill. If he didn't think it, it couldn't be so.

My Nightforce (56mm) "'blows everything away' brighter" without a doubt. This is based on side by side comparison by at least three men age 23, 44, and 67. The other scopes were Swarovski z5 (52mm) and Bushnell 6500 (50mm) and Minox 13X56 binoculars.

I'm not overly impressed with the NF glass. I've seen lots of them too. Good, but not great, and not as bright as my VX6.

Originally Posted by cobrad

Obviously you guys have looked through a lot more top end scopes than I, but the most obvious thing I see through my S&B is not just great light, but razor sharp resolution, and the best color and contrast I have ever seen. Nothing I have looked through before matchs it.

The best of Zeiss is very good.
To my eyes, S&B is the best.
Always has been.
The darker the better.

dave

Originally Posted by JGRaider

Every time I read where a S&B "blows everthing away including other high end optics", or vice versa, I have to laugh. If a guy were honest about it, and most aren't, if you could cover the logo and look through them side by side, you'd never know the difference between a S&B, Victory, Z6, or Leica's latest and greatest, and even a VX6/VX7. At least I haven't been able to.

Everytime I hear this crap I'm reminded of a mule deer hunter we had a couple of years ago. It was post dusk, and we were looking at a 185 class buck at about 400 yards. He had a S&B with that circle reticle (not sure what they call it), a 3-12x50 classic I believe. We had my buddy's 7STW with an older VXII 3-9x40 with us. We could of easily made that shot with either scope, out to legal shooting. Was the S&B brighter? Of course, but not "blows everything away" brighter.

We have done side by side comparisons and thw S&B wins. The resolution and clarity combined with the better lowlight ability makes them simply the best and worth the price of admission when the chips are down

Which S&B, and what did you compare it with side by side?

Originally Posted by JGRaider

Originally Posted by dave7mm

Originally Posted by JGRaider

S&B is first rate stuff no doubt.

Your wrong about alot of things.
But your right about S&B.

dave

Like what? Some of the things you post are as laughable as E's.

You gonna give examples or were you just talking out your azz again?

Originally Posted by JGRaider

Which S&B, and what did you compare it with side by side?

Originally Posted by jwp475

Originally Posted by JGRaider

Originally Posted by dave7mm

Not sure which 4-16 you have.
I have a 4-16x50 PMII.
Only scopes that will hang with it when the light gets low is another S&B.
dave

Guess again........

Nothing to guess, it is simply the thruth. I have S&B, US Optics and Zeiss and the S&B's are the best in my eyes especialy in low light. The US Optic and the Zeiss Davari 6X24 are very good, but in low light the S&B blows them away. End of story

Originally Posted by jwp475

Originally Posted by Ringman

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Are these S&B's almost as good as a Leupy 6x42 ?

Maybe he means 6-24X.

Exactly, 6X24X56 to be precise

5X25X56 PMllS&B, 4X16X42 S&B PMll, 3X12X42 PH, 2X10X42 S&BSummit, 3.8X22X44 US Optics, 6X24X56 Divari Zeiss, 3.5X16X50 Nightforce Varminter, 3.5X15X50 NXS, Zeiss Conquest 3.5X10X50

What have you done?????

Don't think these guys got my original joke..

To my eyes, the Schmidt und Bender Zenith has the best resolution and color rendition. Their illuminated reticle (rheostat) is better than everyone else.

Zeiss Victory Diavari and Varipoint appears to have the brightest image to my eyes, and I prefer their non-illuminated reticles. Lighter and trimmer than S&B, and I absolutely favor the 2.5-10x42mm, which Zeiss in their infinite "wisdom" decided to discontinue in favor of promoting/pushing their 50mm scopes.

In regard to the OP original query, to my eyes the S&B Classic series has better resolution and color rendition than the Swaro Z5. It also edges it out in brightness.

The S&B Classic however does suffer from a "tunnel vision" effect on the lowest power magnification.

Originally Posted by jwp475

What have you done?????

Z6, S&B, Victory, Swaro PH, and VX6 together. I wasn't impressed enough with NF to include that one. You did have a good group to compare to. BTW, I was just razzing you somewhat, except for the "blows them away" thing.....that just ain't possible with any high end glass over another.

I guess that is the difference in our interpretation of' blows them away" IMHO that is exactly what S&B does

Speaking of what you've done, just how were these tests done that proved S&B blew everything else away ? For instance, what kind of controled lighting conditions were used ? How were the scopes adjusted ? E

Originally Posted by jwp475

I guess that is the difference in our interpretation of' blows them away" IMHO that is exactly what S&B does

A little bit is alot, when its the only shot you got.
Zeiss and Swaro are just divisions of much bigger companies.
S&B only makes one product.
Rifle scopes.
I tend to think they do a better job of it, than just about anyone.

dave

Originally Posted by jwp475

I guess that is the difference in our interpretation of' blows them away" IMHO that is exactly what S&B does

Eremicus not guessing would "blow me away"...

Originally Posted by JGRaider

....that just ain't possible with any high end glass over another.

You and E should "hook up"

dave

Originally Posted by VarmintGuy

The optics testing folks at Outdoor Life Magazine ran comparison tests of Rifle scopes in their June/July 2,012 issue and the results really IMPRESSED me!
The testers picked the Leupold VX-2 3x9x40mm Riflescope over such expensive and renowned brands/models as the Zeiss Duralyt 2x8x42mm, the Swarovski Z6i 1x6x24mm, the Leica ER 3.5x14x42mm, the Bushnell Legend Ultra HD 3x9x50mm, the Weaver Kaspa 3x12x50mm, the Steiner Predator Xtreme 2.5x10x42mm and the Oculus 4x16x44mm!
Thats right the Leupold costing $300.00 outperformed and outscored the Swarovski at $2,400.00, the Leica at $1,600.00, the Zeiss at $1,000.00, the Steiner costing $800.00 along with the other three brands that cost slightly less than the Leupold!
The article comparing and scoring the Riflescopes runs on pages 44, 45 and 54! The explanation of how the staff compared and scored the Riflescopes is on page 52 of the June/July 2,012 issue of Outdoor Life Magazine.
One short excerpt/quote from the description of the Leupold VX-2 by the Outdoor Life Magazine staff: "This VX-2 is a pure Hunting scope - light, bright and simple. The VX-2 is balanced, features a clean duplex reticle and finger friendly turret controls, and is configured for most big-game Hunting applications. It is one of the great bargains of this or any other age"!
Now Leupold "naysayers" from under every rock may come out and decry this test and they may cry foul in 100 various ways but the fact remains this fine, reliable and great looking scope is an excellent optic and is made by an American company!
And seeing how the Leupold was compared to foreign made scopes costing FIVE times more money, EIGHT times more money, THREE AND A THIRD times more money and another costing TWO AND TWO THIRDS times more money then Leupold naysayers had better take notice and make up some more "whoppers" to try and combat this test!
In fact the Leupold VX-2 won the Outdoor Lifes Editor's Choice Award in the Riflescope section.
Of ALL the categories scored for all the scopes only two individual categories had scores that bested the Leupold (and in these instances only slightly outscored).
Maybe the Leupold naysayers should get a copy of the June/July 2,012 issue of Outdoor Life Magazine and review the results and how the scopes were compared and in what categories?
I have LONG been an advocate of the Leupold line of Riflescopes and they have served me exceptionally well for 50+ years now, and, I have always espoused how the money spent on a Leupold is money well invested - this article just adds more creedence to my contentions.
I have NEVER said that Leupold Rifles scopes are the best ever made - they may or may not be but they certainly are MUCH better than many Leupold naysayers and rumor mongers give them credit for.
Long live Leupold & Stevens an AMERICAN Company!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

varmint gal and outdoor life says loopie is the only scope you'll ever need.

dave

dave7mm,

You should know by now = Schmidt & Bender sucks!!

I only own 6..............................

Yeah, but you could have bought 37 Leupold's for that silly man...

Just what I want 37 Leupolds....................NOT!!!!

LOL!!!

Originally Posted by JGRaider

Originally Posted by dave7mm

Originally Posted by JGRaider

S&B is first rate stuff no doubt.

Your wrong about alot of things.
But your right about S&B.

dave

Like what? Some of the things you post are as laughable as E's.

You gonna give examples or were you just talking out your azz again?

Still waitin' dave7mm, still talkin' out your azz ?

Originally Posted by RDFinn

Originally Posted by jwp475

I guess that is the difference in our interpretation of' blows them away" IMHO that is exactly what S&B does

Eremicus not guessing would "blow me away"...

I hunt in "real" light, not controled light therefore I test in real light looking into the tree shadows at 487 yards. We go from one scope to the other and weed them out as they falter. I was very surprised to see how quickly the US Optics scope fell out in the low light test. Resolution is excellent with this scope and it holds its own with the best of them in good light

I have alot more faith in Mule Deer's tests because he tests under controled conditions and makes sure all scopes are carefully adjusted for accurate, repeatable results.
What he has learned is that there aren't many scopes that test at his highest level, but some of them are made by Leupold. The latest VX6, for instance, resolves just as well under low light conditions as the best from S&B, or Leica.
The other thing is that there really is very little difference between fully multicoated, name brand rifle scopes. E

Testing the way MD does makes sense for testing different scopes at different time. When one can stack the scopes and test them together nothing best "real" world lighting and that is why I believe my eyes and my tests, not someone eles's

I too think that MD's test is valid from a repeatability standpoint, but I'm not so sure what his night time test is supposed to reveal.

I believe to replicate the exact same lighting conditions every time he tests something, and to take atmospheric conditions such as heat waves, dust, haze, etc out of the equation. Makes sense to me.

Originally Posted by jwp475

I hunt in "real" light, not controled light therefore I test in real light looking into the tree shadows at 487 yards. We go from one scope to the other and weed them out as they falter.

jwp
Let me know when you figure out how to hang a eye test chart on the side of a live hog for some twilight testing ok?

dave

Originally Posted by 300MAG

Just what I want 37 Leupolds....................NOT!!!!

LOL!!!

Man, I still have over 20 loopies.
I feel bad.

dave

Originally Posted by Eremicus

The latest VX6, for instance, resolves just as well under low light conditions as the best from S&B, or Leica.
The other thing is that there really is very little difference between fully multicoated, name brand rifle scopes.

My hands on testing did not bear this out. There is indeed a difference, and if one actually takes time to compare scopes stacked or side-by-side, it's readily apparent.

I tested the VX-6 against Zeiss Conquest, Zeiss Diavari, Swarovski Z3, and S&B Classic.

To both my eyes, and my 16 year old son's eyes, the Diavari and S&B Classic had better resolution, color rendition, and a brighter image. And the difference was readily apparent.

The VX-6 easily edged out the Conquest.

The VX-6 and Swaro Z3 appeared to be an optical tie. My son and I spent most of our time testing and comparing these two scopes (since these two were the closets optically). Half the time they were stacked on a tripod. The remainder they were mounted on rifles and placed side-by-side in cradles on a bench rest.

Well into the 30 minutes after legal sunset was when we could discern an optical difference between these two scopes. The Swaro Z3 edged out the VX-6 in brightness and resolution.

Eremicus,

Should your travels ever bring you to South Central Texas, you have an open invitation.

I have a multitude of scopes (Leupold through high end S&B Zenith) in which we can test and compare side-by-side and/or stacked to your hearts desire in various conditions (off the porch, in the woods, or in the canyons and hills).

I'm confident that once you have an opportunity to actually observe and handle various scopes first hand, and compare and test them at the same time in various conditions and light, you'll come away admitting there IS a difference.

Maybe I should have been more specific. His test is in black and white and uses artificial light. The resolution part makes sense to me and I realize the he recognises that people see things differently (color). I am not trying to be a wise arse. I just don't understand what the night test is supposed to do for individuals that are shopping for a new scope.

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I hunt in "real" light, not controled light therefore I test in real light looking into the tree shadows at 487 yards. We go from one scope to the other and weed them out as they falter. I was very surprised to see how quickly the US Optics scope fell out in the low light test. Resolution is excellent with this scope and it holds its own with the best of them in good light

The idea that someone would find fault with you comparing scopes in real world conditions is ludicrous.

"In good light" is the key. My Bushnell has been better than every scope ( at any price point) at the range, except one Leupold with the cut out at the bottom. They were equal in brightness and image quality; although the Leupold was limited to 14X while the 6500 goes to 30X. When that same good light scope gets to low light time it looses out to my 4200's and the Swarovski z5.