Kind of interesting, seems like the bulk of competition shooters use them, but the military uses Leupold Mark 4, and the prices of both aren't something you won't notice shelling out for.

Also you see nightforce in for sale a good deal, so it seems like a lot of people try them and end up selling them.

Personally I've done well with Leupold 6.5-20x which are half the price

I've only fiddled with a couple of them for a grand total of 4 days. I personally don't see their place in a hunting scope. Too much crapola to fiddle with, real big and heavy, but I can see their merits on the range/competition. Glass in my VX6 is just as good or better.

How do you like the VX-6 ?

I haven't seen one yet - I wish they made them in higher magnification models that topped out around 20x.

I'm really wanting to get a 6.5-20x 40mm this time for a stalking gun for lopes. But those Nighforce both cost and weight twice as much - kind of nuts.

Love the 2-12 model. CDS is very repeatable still after about 250 rounds. I haven't seen the 3-18 yet though.

Huh, didn't know they had a 3-18 model, this stupid Ipad doesn't view Leupolds site too well so I didn't check them out there - I was looking at Cabelas for info.

Spotshooter
The Leupold 3-18X is in the MK6 line of scopes. On a side note the Army is moving away from th MK4 3.5-10 (M24) and moving to the MK4 6.5-20 M5 with a 34mm tube (M2010). Army Special Forces use S&B, Nightforce and Leupold (used least ).
Like JGRaider said Nightforces are heavy and bulky, with only fair optics, but they are stout. I can see using them on a purpose built longrange rifle, but not a hunting rifle.

nightforce has added quite a few new features to their scopes recently, high speed turrets and the best zero stop of any scope manufacturer. alot of diehard NF users have and continue to upgrade their older models for new ones with the added features. thus more used scopes on the market. They have also added alot of new reticles. NF isn't really a hunting scope. but they do make the best long range hunting scope out there. if you are cranking the dials I highly recommend NF. leupold doesn't cut it for consistent tracking and repeated up and down adjustment. some will disagree I don't care most people haven't really put a scope truely through its paces in this manner.

I think the optics on the NF scopes are quite good, I think many people feel they should have similar optics to the top end zeiss and swaro hunting scopes, which are priced about the same. keep in mind those rugged adjustments and better internals is part of what you are paying for. NF also holds its value extremely well. They are also very very easy to get behind and have a very forgiving eyebox, which I CANNOT say about leupold.

After going through four Swarovski z5 5-25X52 before I kept one, there is no way the Swarovski z5 is in the same league as the Nightforce 12-42X56 that I had. During the day all four of them are not as good as my 6500 for resolving detail. When I compared my 6500 side by side with my Nightforce, withboth set on 30X, by looking at leaves and twigs about 150-200 yards away I thought they were about the same. But at 521 yards with the Nightforce I could see the lines and spaces of my line chart with the scope set on 12X. The lines are about 1/4" black lines and white spaces. The Bushnell needed 15 1/2X while the Swarovski came up the rear needing 16 1/2X. There was about this same difference in low light performance, maybe more.

Maybe all four of the z5's were the worst Swarovski ever made and the Nightforse was the best one ever made. Does that explain all the z5's needing 25% more magnification to show the same detail at range? Could it be Swarovski folks really haven't had experience with Swarovski and Nightforce scopes after all?

Often I think of what Jim Carmichael told me: "Most gun writers do thier shooting with a typewriter." I think most internet posters echo what other internet poster post without having real world experience.

cummins, please tell us about your vast experience with a VX6 as compared to a NF.

give me 5 years maybe then leupold will actually have produced enough for me to even see one in a store they were announced 2 years ago and still aren't stocked in good numbers at stores. I used leupold for the features not because I really liked them very much. I switched my long range rig to nf and couldn't be more happy

In other words, you haven't a clue what you're talking about, at least in regard to a VX6. I've had one almost a year.

I got my vx 6 3-18x44 last week. They are not on the leupold online catalogue. Very nice scope for the money. I rate it a hair below Z3 and have 0 knowledge on night force.

JG, why do you have to be such and obnoxious ass?? I really don't care how much you like your VX 6. the man asked about nightforce, not leupolds. I gave my opinions of my NF. you on the other hand wish to make the topic into how little I know about the VX6. you have shown similar patterns of insults toward me in other posts. I don't get it. I am sorry you are having a bad day and hold grudges against people for so long. This is a place for people to come and look for information, hopefully some of it can be informative, uplifting, and entertaining. insulting me and telling me I don't have a clue is doing none of that. hopefully you don't live your life off line in such a fashion. I wish no ill will toward anyone goodness sakes its just a web forum.

He asked if a NF is worth it or not. I don't think NF's are hunting socpes so I say no they're not. I have nothing against you personally, but you say many things that aren't true. People come here looking for info, and I agree with you on that. They just need correct info, not guessing or speculating. I like lots of stuff, not just the VX6, but glass wise it's at least as good as a NF.

IME this isn't true, especially with a VX6:


This isn't either, once again RE VX6:


You're right though, not really worth arguing about. I'm one of those "present the facts" and let it be sorted out kind of guys.

JG has helped me on many different optic choices. He does know what he's talking about and does back up his facts.

Nightforce's eye boxes are better than Leupold ? Which ones are you talking about ? The worsat eye boxes I've ever seen on a Leupold were on my ancient 7.5XAO and the old 3-9X33 Compact. The 3-9X33 Compact has the same eye box lenth as the little 32mm NF as far as I can tell. All of the VariXIII's and VX3's I've played with had more, usually alot more.
Leupold's don't track well ? Really ? Again, which ones ? The US Army uses nothing but Leupolds. It uses several models, including the new Mk8's. Even the US Marines use the new Mk8 on such things as their Mk.19 Automatic Grenade Launcher and the M2 .50 Caliber Heavy Machine Gun. E

I agree about Leupold's catalogs and web site not being current, and with some errors.

I have a VX-6 2-12x42, a Z3 4-12x50 BT and a Z5 3.5-18x44. To me, the VX-6 is as good as the Z3 and gives the Z5 a serious run. I like the VX-6 duplex better than the Z3 and found the Z5 duplex much too thin for hunting. It was so bad, I spent another $125 and a trip back to Swaro for a retro #4 German. Right now, the Z5 needs to go back for repair. The BT turret is held on the scope by two small plastic clips. One broke, so now that assembly is held in place by one small plastic clip. They'll fix it gratus, but it's a pain to remove the scope, lose zero, send it back and start over. Oh well, at least Swaro and Leupold have great CS.

I've used a Nightforce, don't own one. They're very good, but bulky and heavy, and their reticles are way too complicated for me. For hunting, I'd go with something else. I like a good, medium heavy duplex and a dedicated elevation turret for what I do.

DF

Might go with the newer Mark4 6.5-20x but I'll need a good cross hair for speed goats and pdogs.

There is a guy who posts here who goes under the name of "Formidilosus " who is an active duty military sniper who has seen every scope currently used by military snipers. He said recently that Nightforce scopes are the only ones that are basically problem free. He also said that Leupold variables have the highest failure rate of all the scopes they currently have in use.

Eremicus
The Army does not use Leupold exclusively. Sniper rifles in our armsroom have S&B, Nightforce and Leupold scopes. I have been active duty for quite a while now and am fairly familiar with all of them (Not much time on a 2010 or with the S&B).

RDFinn I agree with Formidilosus that the Leupolds are the most problematic of our scopes. The MK4 LR/T 3.5-10 M2 that come on the M110 are the worst.

CC he dont know squat about NF scopes. The NF 2.5-10x32 is the best compact, reasonably light, illuminated, range compensating reticle, bullet proof scope out there. Leupold does fix stuff free, there's a reason for that.

Everything is bigger in Texas, including egos.

I've got a couple of Leupold MK 4 LRT's in 10 x40 that I sure like for LR shooting. How well regarded were they by our service users? Magnum man

yeah I am saying leupolds tracking isn't that great, and I stand by it. once you have had a couple leupolds fail in this area even after supposedly being fixed. I have learned that when I need that from a scope leupold isn't what I trust. I do have a vx3 3.5-10 CDS scope on another rifle thats been a decent scope I haven't had problems with it. but its still not as eye box or get behind friendly as my 3.5-15 NXS or any of my bushnell elites. all this doesn't really matter if you don't use the scope for long range, none of it matters actually. all the leupolds I have owned do a great job of holding zero if you set it and don't touch it, but so does pretty much every other scope brand I own, bushnell, sightron, nikon, burris, weaver, etc. The leupolds the military are using are mainly units that have been in inventory for a long time, which if you look at what was out there 10 years ago, leupold prolly was the only game in town then.

ermicus as far as I am concerned you are so brand mioptic biased to leupold I don't see your comments outside of leupold to be that helpful. back to the original question is NF worth it, it depends on what you are doing with the scope. if you are not cranking dials even I would probably just put an elite 4200 on the gun. if you are going to use your turret all the time then yeah I say there isn't really anything out there better. talk to the guy over at snipers hide that runs the site and even he says he has had problems with USO and S&B at different times. never a problem with NF. I am just repeating what he has said so take it how you want. I personally don't see myself ever spending 3 grand on a rifle scope like a S&B

Formidilosus also spoke very, very highly of the SWFA Super Sniper scopes for holding zero and tracking along with the Bushnell HDMR.

For what it is worth, I personally own various 6.5-20 MK4s, Nightforces, U.S. Optics, as well as IOR and some lesser scopes.

The older Leupold MK4s were G2G. Today, I would not purchase one.

Dodgefan is correct in that Big Army does not use Leupold exclusively. Not even close.

Leupold a number of years back started to have serious QC issues and many organizations that had purchasing latitude moved away from Leupold to USO and Nightforce and S&B.

As an example, on this issued SR25 below,with a MKIV it was standard practice to dial dope, say 400+3, then 3 extra clicks, then go back three clicks to settle the turret. Simply put, the Leupolds had a habit of tracking poorly. Fact, not opinion. BTDT.

In my experience, once you use a NF you toss the Leupolds in an old box with the Tascos. OK, that's an exaggeration, but not as big a one as you might think.

And yes, the optics are from Japan, but Japan makes the best optics in the world. Sorry guys, they rule on that.

If you are talking about the old M3A then us older guys liked it, most of the younger guys have never used one. The MK4 M3LR took over for it early 2000 timeframe.

never tried a VX6, and I have no plans on doing so after experienced Leupolds sad attempt at tracking.

It is funny...when everyone asks if a scope is as good as a Nightforce then it is obvious Nightforce is THE benchmark.

So many folks with no military experience whatsoever love to talk about what the military uses... cracks me up!!! Army only uses Leupold, prefers Leupold, etc.

I was an Army grunt, but it's been awhile - I'll defer to those with more recent/more relevant experience such as Formidilosus, Mackay, etc., especially over what I read on the internet.

I love my nightforce scopes, I own two of them now and wouldn't trade them for anything. However one of my friends uses Leupold which are nice, the other uses zeiss which is also nice. We all like each others scopes and at the same time would not want to trade them for our own reasons. They all make quality optics, IMO it comes down to the shooter and what they like. I like the durability, and that it tracks extremely well.

I'm a big fan of the NF NXS full size scopes on my range gun. They wouldn't be my first choice on a hunting rig though.


My advice about the NF is IF you decide that's what you want, go ahead and spring for a model with the high-speed turrets and zero stop. Those two things make the scope sooo much more user friendly and are well worth the extra coin they cost.

Well, speaking just for myself.....as I said before I'm not a BR or competition shooter. In that arena I'm sure NF rules. I have no reason not to believe the great reviews I read about them from Formid and the experienced here. I'm just a hunter. The average hunter will never wear out a VX3, VX6, Conquest, or Elite 4200 spinning dials. I also feel, and it's just a SWAG, that the Leupold problems reported (not necessarily by people here), are a small sample of the scopes used, and could entirely be related to mounting issues and user error, including lots of "expert" gunsmiths. As I've posted before, I've probably seen over 110 different hunter's rifles over the past 11 years or so. Guessing 75% wear Leupy's of some configuration. I always ask each hunter specific questions about their equipment.....all of it. Not one has ever had a problem with their scopes. I find that interesting too.

JG,

I'm more in line with your thinking. But, I've never been a sniper, too old to start now. I don't do LR shooting and don't shoot in competition (other than cowboy action shooting now and then, but that's different).

As a hunter who likes to spin a turret, Swaro, Zeiss, Leupold and the higher end Bushnells suit me fine. I especially like the Leupold CDS. It seem tougher made than the Swaro BT and doesn't need aftermarket parts. And if QA fails, CS is great. Just aggrivating to have to send one back.

DF

So, you are talking about special forces units ? They have alwyas used wide variety of scopes.
My understanding that they all have problems from time to time. We've had a couple of posters point out that if your Nightforce develops any problems, it's a six month wait to get anything fixed. Nightforce has no big contracts with the military. Probably beccause they can't deal with problem scopes in a timely manner.
Again, which Leupolds ? The fixed magnification 10X, Mk.4 has been the Army's day scope since the 80's. It was developed to meet the Army's standards which no one could do at the time. That's the same story that led to the development of the new Mk.8's. Nobody else could make one that worked.
Until I see some carefully done testing that proves otherwise, I'm going to believe that Leupold builds as good a scope as anyone could want. Depends on which one you choose for what job. E

Again??? Seriously???

Hey E, It's simply amazing that when given the choice to use something else, they do!!!

Take a good look at as much live sniper footage as you can and you will see S&B very very often!!!

You really don't need to pound your chest on "all things Eremicus" to justify your purchases, it ok really...

A guy at the range last summer was shooting his new scoped rifle at fifty yards. He was getting 1 1/2" groups. He was delighted with how good the scope was and the spectacular groups. He had no idea something was wrong somewhere in the system; even if it was him. How many of the 75% of the 110 were guys like him?

The variable power Mark 4 Leupolds should not be considered in the same conversation with the fixed powers. That is, unless Leupold changed the fixed powers recently.

Never had any problems with the M3A scope on the M24. Great scope. I currently have two Mark 4 10x scopes, and find them quite reliable.

Had a 3.5-10 on a M21. Unreliable. I pulled the scope and used irons.
Similar scope (though illuminated) on an SR-25, needed to click past then back down like Mackay mentioned above.

I don't recall any issues with the 4.5-14s on the platoon's Barretts. Though they didn't see the number of rounds as the other rifles, and the ammo situation often made scope accuracy a moot point (we did get good ammo in Iraq).

This was all circa 2005-06, 1/327 Tiger Force, 101 ABN.

Edited to add: Being Regular Army, we didn't shoot nearly as much as we would've liked, though we did shoot with 5th Group enough to know about the variable's problems. The guys like Mackay and Formidilosus see a lot more rounds fired through these systems, and should be who we defer to on such matters.

Fixed that up for accuracy.

Billy,

Thanks for the info.

I've got a Mark 4 10x on my 6.5-06. The adjustments have always been dead-nuts and very reliable. In fact the first time I cranked it out to 600+ yards, after sighting-in at 100, the 140 VLD's landed right where they should according to the ballistic program. Of course I'd tested the adjustments for accuracy by shooting and adjusting at 100, but it was nice to see everything work out so easily way out there.

Of course, I haven't taken any big game with the rifle beyond 163 yards, but have shot some varmints at longer distances. Impressed the hell out of a few friends while we were shooting prairie dogs a couple years ago. We'd either killed or spooked all the dogs inside 400 yards with normal PD rifles, so I got out the 6.5-06, lasered a dog at 470, cranked the elevation turret, and killed the dog with the very first shot.(Of course, I didn't have enough sense to put the rifle away after that--but did get a few more out to around 600.)

Interesting how you could smack a prairie dog at nearly 500 yards with "only" 10x.

Nightforce supplies scopes to the Seals As well as Army Special Forces (MK13 rifle) and while it is not as big a contract as the M110 or M2010 it is still a substantial number of scopes. Couple of the reasons why Leupold got the contract for those two rifles probably include cost and the fact that Leupold is a proven supplier.
The end user doesn't get a lot of feedback (most times) into what systems they are issued, but I know in my unit when they have a choice you won't see a Leupold on the rifle. As far as the 6 month wait for repair the 2 we sent back (stripped zerostop) were back in 2 1/2 weeks (including a trip to Crane).

I've probably got about 2000 rounds through a Barret and you are right that it is hard to test scope tracking when you rifle shoots about 3 MOA.
I never had any issues with an M3a either. A M3LR cost my partner and I a couple of places at the FT Benning Sniper match when it took a dump.
Buddy of mine did the 5th Grp Level 2 course when he was in the 101st.
Regular Army snipers shoot a lot more then they used to at least here on Carson.

John,
Curious if you still have the Burris on your 6.5-06, and if so, how do you like it? If you have a story coming out on it, no need to spoil it!



dodgefan,

Glad to hear the guys are getting more trigger time. We had a deal worked out with some of the 5th Group guys; when they or us got a range, the other would come shoot. I think it worked out better for us, as we got to play with some of their cool toys, shot up their ammo, and gleaned a lot of good info.

That's the schitz about the scope giving out on you in competition! I bet that was a lot of fun (the Sniper Match, I mean).

Funny anecdote about the Barrett and why a single group tells you little about a rifle - downrange we were sighting in our Barretts, and had some ammo that shot quite well (I honestly can't remember what it was, IIRC it was something other than RAUFOSS). I managed to shoot a 3 shot, 400 yard group that measured a little less than 2.5".... which I'm pretty sure I couldn't do with that rifle in a million more tries!

It looks like the ammo budget is going to be a lot smaller in the future.
The match was fun, good people and an awesome prize table.

Black Tip (AP) shot pretty well out of the Barret and I've seen M8 API shoot pretty well. Raufoss is about the best of the Army issued stuff. I always wanted to try some Hornady Amax out of it.

He believes only what he wants, this has been going on for years. Face it he's an older gentleman who has all the answers and he comes to this forum to try and influence others that he knows best. That is fact!

That's sounds pretty strange to me, RD. I had the impression Formidilous ran a shooting school where he taught long range shooting skills and was a former military sniper.
I recall him saying that one of the Nightforce scopes he has run has been used a great deal and that it had been his most problem free scope, but I don't recall him claiming that they are basically problem free as a brand. Then, of course, we have the posters who complained that they couldn't get their scopes fixed in any less than six months. Nightforce advised them against sending them in for minor repairs.
I also recall he had excellent service from some of the Leupolds he's seen used.
The bottom line is that all of these guys have seen a few scopes used. Some have had problems. But you can't make any claim that one is better than the other until they have been tested under controled conditions. After all, Leupolds have been used extensively by the US Army since the mid 80's. So, if one fails, just what kind of use did it have before it failed ? And how did this compare to the others ? Only careful testing can determine this. E

dodgefan both of mine have M3 dials and are Mk IV 10 x40 as marked neither has an A or LR after the M3 on the dials or scope that I can see. The one on my 308 has a mil dot reticle and the turret says 308 M marked out to 1000 yds. Leupold CS told me it was calibrated for 168 bthp's with a bc of .476 at 2650 fps at sea level. the one on the 30-338 turret says 300 win mag M3 marked out to 1200 meters with a duplex crosshair and is supposed to calibrated with 190 gr bthp with a .496 bc at 2900fps at sea level. from what little 500 to 1000 yd shooting I do they are close but I don't shoot at sea level and the velocity of my loads are different than idealized.I only have about $450 each in them but still think I did ok for the money. Any add'n info you have on them is appreciated if you will share it. Magnum Man

Magnum_Man
Most of my experience with Leupold has been with military issue gear. I've only owned 3 leupolds personnally. The M3A is a 30mm tube 1 MOA elevation 1/2 MOA windage fixed 10X that was built like a tank.
We pretty much quit using them in late 03 when we got the M3LR 3.5-10X scopes in to replace them. I used the M3A in sniper school, but when I deployed to Afghanistan I had an M3LR mounted up.
I've seen multiple BDC knobs for them M852, 118 Special Ball and A191 and they didn't match our ammo/gun combo either. We were taught (at that time) to dial the range +- clicks to get centered hits. An 800 meter target might be 8 + 1 for example.
Today we use Mils or MOA for data depending on the scope. The Army finally figured out having the reticle and the knobs match made sense and the newest scopes are Mil/Mil.

Thank you dodgefan, the clicks are the same value on mine and are 30mm tubes. Magnum man

I've seen one Nightforce failure that was due to something other then the operator. Something came loose inside a brand new (just mounted) 3.5-15 F1 with H58 reticle. You could shake the scope with the objective down and the reticle would disappear or go out of focus. Shake it with the objective up and it would reappear although slightly out of focus.

Anything can and will fail at some point. Eremicus doesn't seem interested in what some of our guys are reporting that have current first hand knowledge. He has made the statement about Nightforce customer service repair's numerous times and was told this by Formidilosus....

Your statement about Nightforce's military contracts and repair backlog is false. They have, and have had, several contracts within USSOCOM, NAVSPECWAR, and USASOC. They currently have one worth 25.8 million dollars.

They do have a huge backlog across the board with their optics because they are selling every single scope they can make. It has nothing to do with repairs.



He goes on and on about Leupold scopes and was told that they have the highest failure rate of all the scopes the military uses.

put JG in with him too, finally someone who gets it right. when we start talking about mk 4's and nightforces we are beyond the scope of a hunting rifle scope. and when we make that deviation leupold can't hang anymore.

ERMY and JG dudes seriously if you set it and forget it a leupold is going to work great its going to be a decent scope. its the adjustments everyone is saying isn't what they should be. for 99% of people they will never use a hunting scope in such a fashion. I would also say that many people don't have an accurate enough gun to really know how well their hunting rifle scope tracks. and no the problem isn't crappy gunsmithing and poor scope mounting!!!! put a scope on an honest 1/4-3/8 MOA rifle and one that can do it at 200 yards and beyond. you will then see tracking that you get from NF seperate the men from the boys.

You're quite the comedian cummins. First of all, I'm not that old! Secondly I believe what my own eyes and experience tell me, from actual hunting use, not speculation.

Those are good scopes, especially for that price!

I have an order in with Leupold for a MOA calibrated M3 knob with zero stop. The straight MOA knob (with zero stop) was apparently not an option on M3 dials, so Leupold had to write an entirely new program specifically for my order. Didn't cost me anything more than standard replacement dial price, though it's taking a big more time than usual (oh well)! I'll let you know how it works out - should be a better option than trying to make a cartridge specific dial work for you.

cumminscowboy,



Here's another thought. Most of the folks who purchase the long range scopes will sight them in for 100 or 200 and never know if they track or not.

A few years ago I purchased a z5 5-25X52 with the Ballistic Turret. I did some calculating and decided to sight it in at 300 yards. Then without shooting it I went on the 'net and found a trajectory program for my .257 Weatherby firing Barnes 100 TTSXes at 3,704 and theoretically set the first hold over for 380, the next for 440 and the 500 yards; and instantly became a "long range shooter". Did I test them? My range only goes to 300 yards.

Billy,

I just put the Burris Eliminator on the 6.5-06 to see how far out the LED dots would go. Am probably going to put the Burris on a smaller rifle (maybe a .223) to see how it works on PD's this spring.

I have the Mark 4 10x on the 6.5-06 in detachable Talleys just so I can take it off and use the rifle to test other scopes, without having to resight the Mark 4 again. Have detachable mounts on several other rifles so I can do the same thing with them, including my lightweight .338 Winchester--which has killed more "shock proof" scopes than any rifle I've ever owned.

This is true. In 1984 my ODA and I flew to Portugal on a 130 with a SEAL Platoon. The crusty old platoon Chief had just left a staff job at Crane Naval Weapons Center. He said that they had tested and destroyed every single scope on the planet. The only one that came close to holding up
was the ZF-69, but sub lockouts finally got it, though I'm sure that wasn't in their design parameters.

Three years later I sat on Smoke Bomb Hill and listened to MSG Rick Boucher pretty much tell the same story, and then he showed us one of the SOTIC committee 700's with a then brand new Leupold M3 Ultra. Never saw one of those scopes not track accurately.

You have Rick Boucher to thank for that scope's rugged, reliable, tracking, as the AMU contingent was dead set on having 1/4moa adjustments. He had to document that they couldn't be made to track accurately, and because of "screw lag", wouldn't always take the DOPE.

What Boucher and Lambert came up with, an elevation turret with an etched knob calibrated for the load, was what a few euro snipers were doing, and pretty much what John Burns at Greybull advocated. This is why I have to laugh when someone posts here that that system doesn't work. Boucher stacked up bodies like cordwood in SE Asia, sort of like Burns does elk.

So, would it be reasonable to say that the new Leupold variables with the double bias spring track more dependably than the older single spring variety?

In my experience with several scopes, yes.

But am always interested in hearing the results of other people's experience.

dave

Thanks, dave7mm, for some real world info. That's the kind that helps the serious buyer make a better purchasing decision.

"It's easily 20 to 1 when you compare the Nightforces on the line with the military units, this last class had 4 Leupolds on the line, 1 failed the first day, the remainders where USO, NF, and S&B... Do we see others fail, sure but not nearly as much."

lowlight


I sure dont see many loopies on the line at Ridgway.
We have 10 targets at 850,900,950 and 1000 yards.
Lots of clicking all day long, all summer long.
Nightforce is the scope I see the most of.
Im running a 12x42 NSX with the NP-2DD and I dont have a bad word to say about it.
Kevin Cramms crew runs alot of Sightrons.I see both variables and fixed power.Current record holder is one of Cramms shooters with a 36 out of 40 targets.The guy missed 2 crows at 850 yards and 2 woodchucks at 900 yards.Cleaned everything else.Unreal shooting.He did it with a Sightron variable.
I have a fixed 24x Sightron on a 17 lb 6.5x47.
The value of the clicks are off a tad.
But the thing goes straight up...at least for 35 inches ...and repeats spot on.

dave

Word from one of the competitive match shooters at my club is they are all running Nightforce or Sightron.

NF rules the BR and competition. That's obviously a fact. Now I'll turn it around on you BR guys.........I've seen one NF out of 110-120 scopes in hunting camp.

JG: You got the wrong guy... simply amplifying what Dave said about match shooters...I have yet to see a NF in the field...course maybe I'm not running in the correct circles

Here's my take FWIW.....near as I can tell much of this is an "apples/oranges" conversation....I mean some of these match/tactical shooters in competition shoot and practice a LOT.I mean the annual round expenditure will exceed what even an avid hunter/shooter(even a hard core varmint shooter) will do in 2-10 years(we are talking in the thousands annually, sometimes 5 figures).

IME there are VERY few hunters who come close to the round count expended by match shooters, unless they partake in both activites...not all do.

Those scopes are constanly clicking,putting up with a lot of recoil effects,unlike many of the scopes we all use for much of our hunting.And even if they are so used, they don't see as much action and are not subject to as much stress as the scopes run in competition.

In many ways it is really unfair to compare a Leupold with a NF or S&B,because they are simply built to different design standards,levels of precision,toughness,and price points.

I think everyone including me is saying NF isn't really a hunting scope, especially in the sense that most think of a hunting scope. if the guys is asking about NF I think he is asking if its worth it in relation to other scopes in the same niche. in that regard its one of the best values out there, more expensive S&B and USO scopes are nearly twice as much as NF with no added reliability.

Anyone care to list which models have the double bias springs?

Think Cummins hit on it...match shooting is not hunting, and hunting is not match shooting....although there is some overlap in intended outcome and tecnique, equipment,etc.

I wasn't directing that to you Bob, my friend. That's why I made the statement that the avg hunter will never wear out your basic VX3, VX6, conquest, etc.

pointer.....The VX6 and VX3 have the dual springs, maybe a couple of others but not sure.

In my trips to Canada the hunting scope I saw the most was the Zeiss.I was always the odd man out running the S&B.We played pass the scope many a night.No one,including myself felt, I was giving anything up.Once and awhile a new guy would show up with a loopie.Anyone I ever saw who showed up with loopie for there first hunt, ever came back with one.

dave

Thanks. Does your FX3 6X42? That's one I'm pretty interested in.

Out of several hundred hunters that have come through our place over the years, I remember one S&B. There were probably more (as I didn't see everything that came through camp), but I remember that one because at the time I had never heard of them.

Lots of Leupolds, a few Zeiss, plenty of Nikons. Don't recall ever seeing a Nightforce.

Of course there were Bushnell topped semi-auto Remingtons too (not the guys you wanted to guide). Fortunately those are pretty rare nowadays.

Then again, our hunts are fairly classic, there's no knob spinning or night shooting involved. So basically a Nightforce or some other equally heavy piece of crap strapped to the top of your gun is a waste.

Nightforce Compact is not a "heavy piece of crap" lmao

One of my favorite hunting scopes.

You're right, the 3.5-10 isn't too over the top for weight. I was referring more to the 30 ounce and up Nightforces, which are ridiculous for an average hunter.

You're quite the comedian dave....your schtick gets old. Maybe your S&B's, Zeiss Diavari's , etc are at their best in Canada, because that's not necessarily the case out here. I see more and more mid priced stuff than ever before, 'cause the primo stuff ain't necessary, as proven by many of our repeat clients who hunt all over the world. I've seen it side by side many, many times in every condition, for the past 11 years. I do love those Diaviari's and S&B's though and they do have better glass than a VX3, Conquest, Elite, SwaroA, and VX6.

It reminds me of one guy from PA we had show up to hunt aoudad a few years ago. First morning he walked out of the cabin in his starched jeans and LL Bean hunting shirt, looking like a million bucks. The first thing he did was pull out his Blaser rifle topped with a S&B something or other and gave us a seminar for the next 15 minutes. He finally killed a big ram, but the best part of his "game" was his equipment if you know what I mean.

My buddy and I have killed 6 muley bucks between us here in TX since 2008, totaling a gross 1149 inches, 191.5" average, with VX2, VX3, and one SwaroA that I don't own anymore due to a wandering zero. You need to try and sell your stories to a less experienced crowd.

I have been using one of the 2.5-10 NF compacts for hunting elk, mule deer, antelope and WT's in the Rockies for the last couple of years. They are a little heavier than the VX-3 3.5-10 AO. About 3 ounces as I recall. I have not had any trouble with the NF at all. This one of my favorite photos of the NF:

Great pic Chet!

Buy whatever optic best works for YOU and run with it, whether its a Schmidt & Bender or a [bleep]' Barska!!!


What works for me may not work for you and vice-versa, but does that make it wrong????

IMO it doesn't make you wrong at all. I fell the same way and advocate buying whatever you want, not necessarily need.

[quote]You're quite the comedian dave....your schtick gets old. Maybe your S&B's, Zeiss Diavari's , etc are at their best in Canada, because that's not necessarily the case out here./quote]

Because his experience differs from yours you see the necessity to berate him?

Read 'em again, along with Prarie Goat's response and you figure it out.

The NF bashers are missing the boat here. My 2.5-10NF Compacts are easily the nicest hunting scope(s) I own. They weigh about the same, and blow away the Leupies I own/have owned over the last 35 years. I also use several Leupies and Conquests. But the best hunting scope I've used...all things considered...NF 2.5-10 Compact.

I've not used S&B or any of the $2,000 plus scopes. I'm just a poor hunter giving a report from a hunter's perspective.

Oh, and yes, I use a 3.5-15NF, and a 5.5-22NF on a couple hunting rifles. I don't see a problem. I like hitting schitt with the first shot, at 400-600.

They obviously work for 'ya Al.....seen pics of your sheep shot between the eyes! If I could shoot like that on a hunt I wouldn't use anything else either. Wouldn't want you shooting at me I know that much. Please understand I'm not bashing NF at all. They obviously have a heckuva product. My 52 year old eyes aren't good enough at dark thirty to reliably see all those hashes, dots, etc. I'm weird I guess.

You prefer to bash another poster with whom you don't agree.

You aint weird JG. All my scopes have duplex reticles of some sort. I've not looked thru a VX75...or whatever that is you got. I'm sure it's nice. I'll compare next winter, if things green up this year. I'll bring some extra bullets and let you spin some turrets that give you what you want EVERY time.

Funny enough, that sheep got killed at 275 yards [with a 100 yard zero] after dialing 1.5 moa on a VX3 4-5-14X40 (1") with an M1 dial. I very well may have the 2 best tracking Leupies in the history of man. That one, and a VX3 4.5-14X40LR with a M1. They both track perfectly, and I've posted "the box" tracking test results with both of them, here on this forum in the past.

I think the new VX3's are nice enough. I really like the NF Compacts tho, because I shoot 12 months a year at 200 to 600, and am constantly spinning turrets. I never have to guess with my NF's.

To the OP, yes...I say it's worth it.

I'm really interested in those rebarelled/modified T3's you've told me about........

You'll get to shoot the .284 with 5.5-22 NF.

Interesting that I saw this post as my bro and former teammate called me two days ago to discuss this very topic about a military sniper course he is currently running. They have 18 shooters IIRC. 12 have Nightforce/S&B/Bushnell HDMR's and 6 have Leupold MK4 3.5-10x40 M2's. The twelve with the NF's/S&B's/HDMR's are rocking it. Of the 6 with Leupolds, 2 have incorrect tracking. Almost all of the systems (M110's) are brand new with new Leupolds. The other scope are not new. This is almost exactly the "failure" rate that we see played out again and again with Leupolds. Not that all Leupolds have issues, or that they won't hold zero, but it is rare to see a Leupold hunting variable (the variable MK4's are nothing more than rebadged hunting scopes) that do not develop some issues after relatively light use.



If you want a Leupold that works get a fixed power Ultra M3A/MK4, MK 4 34mm, Locking turret, 6.5-20x50mm, or a MK8 1-8x. Initial testing seems to indicate that the newer MK 6's are doing well.


I do not have enough time on, nor have a large enough sample size to comment on the VX-6's. The one 1-6x24mm I had tracked very well for around 3k rounds of use. My buddy has it now and it is working fine.

To answer the OP's question- yes they are worth it. Positively and without a doubt.

Nightforce rules the roost for just plain working. Even some of the recent S&B's have started having problems. The 2.5-10x32mm is, in IMO, the best hunting scope made for 0-600 yards. The tracking, durability and reliabilty is simply unmatched.



For similar performance the SWFA SS's are downright great. We have more rounds on the 3-9x42mm versions than most people have seen shot in their lifetime. It is currently my pick for a hunting scope in that power range.

The people who buy them think so. The rest of us do not. ??

Your genuine, up to date experience, is going to ruin the Hunting Optics Forum.........

I've been shooting with Nightforce scopes on some of my hunting rifles for a few years now. Started out with an NXS 3.5-15x50 but found it too bulky for packing all day although the glass was wonderful.

Sold that scope to a guy who truck hunts and is happy as a clam with it. I bought a NXS 2.5-10x32, excellent scope for me and my application.

I think a guy will use what works for them within their own unique economic capability. Or with that individual's eyesight they can't tell the difference which negates the need for something better. Or they don't shoot enough for it to matter. Or...

From my experience and for my application the Nightforce is worth it.

Shoot what you like, shoot it well, and let your target sheets, freezer, or your trophy room do the talking.

I don't particularly pay all that much attention on "glass" and "clarity". I DEMAND correct mechanical function, long term durability, reliability, and stability of erectors day in and day out. As long as the glass is "good enough", than it is good enough.

I have never missed or witnessed a shot missed due to VX2 and up quality glass, however I have missed a bunch, and seen many more shots missed due to faulty erectors or loss of zero.


Glass and clarity are subjective. Mechanical soundness isn't.

This seems pretty sound advice to me....like getting the "horse" in front of the "cart"...where it belongs.

I've been using the 2.5-10x 32 for several years now. I couldn't be happier with the scope, it is clear enough for me and the lighted reticle worked great when I needed it, which is about two times in those years. As a long time Leupold user I can honestly say I am more pleased and impressed with this scope than with any of the dozens of Leupolds I have owned. Have also used several Swaros, both the 1" and 30mm models and I still prefer the NF. For me, worth every penny.

TRUE, TRUE, TRUE FRIEND!!

With the illumination turned on, the reticles are easy to see in low light. The batteries last hundreds of hours on the lower power settings in my experience.

Thanks,

Chet

Wow, there's a certain copy and paste participator here that will roll around the floor clutching his chest when he sees this.

It's unfortunate JG. Failures with the S&B tac scopes used to be almost unheard of. The new contract ones don't seem to be holding the rep.

Wish I could get a 3-15 NF for under 1500 bucks.... I'd love to have something track like crazy.

One thing I notice about scopes with issues tracking/staying zeroed, is their tendency to shift POI during a string of fire with the turret adjusted. That, is the most frustrating GD thing I've ever experienced with a rifle in my hands.

Yep. If people actually tested their scopes, i.e. mapped the adjustments out a full 30-40 MOA or 10 mils, and grouped it enough to actually see POI shifts day in and day out, they'd toss'em across the yard.


Was discussing this with my pard tonight. They mapped those two Mark 4 3.5-10x40mm LR's that had bad tracking issues at a hundred, and both were off right at 9% at 30 MOA.

I'd love it if Nightforce could come out with a 40-42mm version that kept the good adjustments, skipped the illumination and fancy reticles, and kept the weight down. What I want is the adjustment reliability, I don't need the part of the weight that accounts for it being able to survive combat use by Marines.

Tanner:

I will be selling one in the future if you're in no hurry. I have a S&B 3-12x50 PMII ordered and will be delivered in about 4 months, then my NightForce 3.5-15x50 will be up for sale - probably for $1400. Just giving ya a heads up!!

Agreed. 20 ounces and a 40mm objective. I could like that.

It already exists... Albeit not a NF....

Much less expensive as well!

I'm not sure that you can get perfect mechanical reliability without the whole thing being durable. Which means weight. Personally I'm not interested in scopes that can't survive use....

Formidilosus

Which specific scope do you have on that rifle - it looks like a super sniper, I've had a few friends recommend SWFA scopes but have never really looked into them - maybe I need to re-think this.
Also I have to look at the Bushy HMDR you mentioned as well. I'm about to start practicing on Pdogs well beyond 300 in the Kansas / colorado winds so good tracking is pretty much a must. The entire game here is to get ready for longer shots on speed goats.

The new nightforce competitions are pretty nice - yet even more pricey.

Thanks
Spot

No middle ground? Marine proof down to unreliable adjustments is one step?

I'm not packing a 30 ounce scope around the mountains. Regardless of how reliable it is, it's borderline unportable.

Even if the total weight isn't bad, an extra pound of scope on top of a lithe sporter kills the handling.

Exactly. It's more where the extra 10 or 15 ounces is located rather than the issue of the extra weight. Strapped to the top of a lightweight rifle, it makes the entire package really top heavy and awkward. The other issue is when you are packing it in your hands, as when you're sneaking through the lodgepole blowdown, that weight adds up fast.

The 2.5-10x32 is only 19oz, which ain't the end of the world...

But 32 is the end of that scope.

Like I said, a Nightforce 2.5-10x40 at 20 ounces would be great. I'm not interested in the 32mm, I looked through one and was not terribly impressed.

I'm definitely with you fellas. I have a hard time liking the 32mm, but a 40mm at 20 ounces would go straight onto my To-buy list.

No fancy reticle. Drop the illumination and its cost too. Basically what I want to hunt with are a VX-3 3.5-10x40 and an FX-3 6x42 with Nightforce grade adjustments.

This makes sense.

Depends on the application, but when I'm hunting with a rig that I've set up for potential long shots, I want a well-marked reticle that has bold enough posts to work well in low light, but fine enough center cross hairs with proper markings for accurate wind holds and precision placement.

That is indeed a SWFA 3-9x. All things considered it's the best hunting scope going IME....










No, it's just that the weight comes from the tube thickness which supports and protects the beefed up erector system. It's not just the springs and screws. The the whole scope bends and flexes during recoil. Everything being beefed up makes sure it stays consistent during that.








The SWFA 3-9x42mm weighs 19 onces.

Size relation to a Leupold Mark 4 6x40mm M3.






The tracking is perfect, they hold zero as well as anything made, the size/weight is acceptable- i.e. 13 inches long, weighs 19 ounces, FFP, 1/10th mil adjustments, mil reticle that is designed perfectly for FFP.

Interesting. I had them pegged as much larger....

I do believe member here Carl Ross used one on a lightweight 6.5mm of some sort on a goat hunt this year, and was successful.

They're smaller than the fixed power versions.

That particular scope has more than 12k rounds on it... and it's not even close to the most used one...... grin

HMDR?

SWFA SS 3-9x42mm.

Form,

If you've got one around, could you do a little size comparison with the 3-9 and one of their fixed power scopes?

This is an HDMR...

Not your average Bushnell eh.....

Sorry dude, I don't have one with me. Prob mid summer before I will have a fixed version in my mitts again. The 3-9x is an inch shorter OAL IIRC....

I'd like to get my hands on a 6x MkIV.

Not quite...

\



I'd like to get two or three more..... grin

Top down:

Leupold 4.5-14, 1 inch tube
Nightforce NXS 3.5-15x56
SS 10xHD
SS 3-9

How's the eye relief on the SS 3-9x42? The specs on SWFA show it getting down to 3" which is too short for my taste.

Regarding the eye relief, it isn't excessive, but hasn't posed a problem for me. I don't shoot much that kicks anymore as a rule, an 8 lb 7/08AI is my biggest offender, and I kind of want to rebarrel it to a 6 Creedmore.

I hunted with one this year on a 6.5x47 Lapua. I think it is the first time I can remember carrying a variable all season and having it still be sighted in at the end of the year.




My partner and I used it on four mule deer and a mountain goat:








My goat was over 500, and his muley was over 400, one shot each. After the season I picked up another 3-9, and he now has two. We don't get to use them near as much as Formidilus, but I hope they keep working as well as his have.

I like Leupold. I have shot them on personal rifles and Army rifles for years. I have only had one Mk4 go tits up and it was returned to me fixed. I had one M8 develop issues and it took a couple trips back to get it working right but they got it sorted out.

That said I have owned NF in the past, used them overseas, and have currently sold all my scopes except one Leupold and one Trijicon (which are in fixed mounts on NULA rifles) and now swap a NF 2.5-10x32mm between my personal rifles that have 1913 rails. As for the backlog I got my scope in about 5 weeks from order when they quoted 12. I haven't had this optic long enough to say exactly what I think of it but initial impressions are it lives up to the NF hype.