I *think* I'm finally down to these scopes after much research. Although the thought of a Vortex Viper 4-16 PST still occasionally crosses my mind.

This is going a-top a Cooper 280AI which I intend to be a longish range rig; although I don't really ever intend to go past 500y.

I have decided on target / exposed turrets rather than a ballistic reticle. Although I expect I will have the need to hold-over for wind.

My guess is that either the Zeiss or the Swaro Z3 should do me fine and both are about the same price. The turrets on the Zeiss seem more hefty and I like the fact that it has parallax adjustment.

Has any one compared these three scopes side by side?

While I could technically afford the Z5 eventually, I'm not sure if it really is worth the money given I don't have a pair of binoculars yet! I gasp at spending $1000 for binoculars but for some reason I don't at spending that on a scope even though binoculars are likely to be used far more.

Right now I am leaning towards the Zeiss. The biggest downside I see of it is that it does not have any hold points for windage.

4oz heavier too, if that matters.

Z3 w/BT has a zero stop. Not sure about the HD5.

canoe, you said one thing I really agree with. Spend more $$$ on binoculars, then the scope. A 3.5-10x40 VX3 CDS is a killer hunting scope for $500.

I want more magnification than 10x for this rig - not for hunting but for the range. Reality is any scope of mine will see 99% of time on the range and I much prefer more magnification there.

I have a VX3 6-20x and for some reason they don't do much for me. The Zeiss conquest I have for example is fantastic! I think it is the constant eye relief and is it ever bright!

Zeiss makes one heck of a scope. I have a swaro z3 on the way, 4-12x50. Should be here tomorrow or sat. The swaro is lighter if that matters. You're not gonna make a bad choice there with any of those 3 you mentioned. Try and see if you can handle any at the local shops, then you'll know for sure what you want.

Z-5 with ballistic Turret, Nikon Monarch 5, or if you can find them, the Nikon ATB 8X42. I have both, both are GREAT. Although I gave my Daughter the Nikons and I bought a pair of Leupolds new McKinnley 10X42 binos. I wanted more power for long range stand hunting and they have great eye relief for my stupid glasses.

Just my 2cents. I'm kinda in JG Raiders camp. I tell everyone to get the BEST you can afford and then buy a little better. You will only cry once. It's like buying a top line stereo, get great compnents and even GREATER speakers, same applie tp optics.

I'm in your camp with the 280AI

Look forward to seeing what you end up with.

PS, I bought my rifle (Sako 85) and ZS BT from Europtics and the Bino's from Cameralandny. Both great people to deal with.

I have a z5 and hd5 zeiss, had a 4x12 z3. All great scopes and don't think you'll be disappointed with any of them. I only sold the z3 to replace with the 5-25 z5.

I think the z5 is alittle sharper than the hd5 but very marginal. Both have track perfectly so far. The one thing I like better with the hd5 is the crosshairs are heavier and can see them better late in the day.
If 12 x is enough for you then I would go with the z3, if I wanted more magnification I would probably buy the zeiss and put the extra money on binos.

NMSShooter, what binos do you run if you don't mind me asking. I don't have a pair yet and am currently trying to decide on a pair. Curious what other guys who run the scopes I'm looking at are using for binos.

Also, have any of you compared the Vortex Viper PST 4-16x to the above scopes?

After doing some more digging into it, it seems the -ve of the HD5 is it does not have any holdover marks for wind. The down side of the Z3 is it does not have adjustable parallax. Z5 has all of the above.

Just ordered the H5 from Cameraland as they are having a big Zeiss sale today!Might give them a buzz as it was close too $150 cheaper than other places.

Yes. They break. Glass is not in the same class. Fans will pontificate on Vortex's customer service.

I WISH we could buy our scopes from the USA! We can purchase binoculars but not scopes as there are export restrictions. Between our two countries I wish we could work out free trade a bit better.

I did the same thing on a demo. The price was too good to turn down.

I would spend the money on a pair of binoculars before the expensive scope. I would also get a Ballistic reticle in a good scope and leave the knobs and dials for varminting...

I've gone back and forth a few times wrt a reticle vs. turrets. I worry a bit that I don't really like a cluttered view of the reticle for ballistic reticles; also isn't it a bit weird to have your point of aim float into space if you are holding over for wind?

Swarovski BRX reticles and Leupold Boone and Crockett and Varmint reticles, all have stadia wires to compensate for wind at the relative distances. Doping wind and using a ballistic reticle is always better than using a turret and forgetting to re-set it or adjust it for a distance and forget what your settings are...

I have the 4-12x50BT and 3.5-18x44BT as well as several 4.5-14x44 Conquest. For me, it's much easier to range and spin the BT to the proper setting vs looking at a cheat sheet for MOA dope. Now, a ballistic dial on the Zeiss would even the field. It would come down to which weight and how much $ I wanted to spend when all 3 are equiped with BTs.

Reloader7RM, so it is the 4-12x Z3 your have and the Z5?

To be honest, I'm really not going to know whether I prefer the BT or a ballistic reticle until I use both. I'm new to all of this so I might just have to pick one and expect to make a few choices that don't work for me along the way. Always helpful if I can find lightly used stuff so I don't lose (much) money along the way.

Yep, Z3 and Z5.

You'll have to use both types of rets to form an opinion. Ballistic rets for me are too busy, I like the simplicity of a single POA.

I agree. The scope I purchased has the Rapid-Z 800 reticle, which I find is perfectly matched to the fast 300 magnums I mostly shoot.
i will not fart around with turrets on a hunting scope.

That settles it. Sounds like I need to call Cooper and ask them to make me two rifles, then go out and buy two identical scopes, one with turrets and one with a ballistic reticle.

Then I will know what is best for me :-)

I think holdover reticles are already archaic. They are no different than pins on a bow, but they cannot even be adjusted. A turret is brainless if you actually spend some time testing it in the off season. Takes 2 seconds to turn my turret to 9 and then I am dead on at 500yds. No different than turning a power ring.

They dont need to be adjusted if you match the reticle to your gun.
While your farting around spinning turrets, Im sending lead downrange. plus I never have to worry about the turret getting spun, or not returned to its zero setting.
Granted a BR may not be as accurate as turrets, but how much accuracy do you need? I know I can shot 12" steel plates in 100yard increments at the gun club with ease, by just using the reticle. Thats good enough for me.

I've owned holdover reticle equipped scopes and they are a joke. You cannot adjust the spacing so you are usually off somewhere or they match up to odd distances.

If it takes a guy more than a few seconds to spin the knob to where it needs to be after the range is known, then he's doing something very wrong.

I've never farted around spinning turrets. I have farted while spinning a turret though.

Tanner

haha. People can spin a power ring but spinning an elevation ring is complicated for some reason.

Takes me "0" seconds to be dead on at 500...

Second dot on a 6x36 Leupold LR with 162 Amax at almost 3200 fps from a 7mm Mashburn Super. Ditto that at 400 and 600 with the first dot and the bottom post.

Who says velocity isn't important? Malarkey.

Nothing to turn,no change in zero...easy and convenient. In the time it takes to read distance and turn a turret,an animal can change distance by 50-100 yards on the side of a mountain or in the plains.

I tend to agree with Bwalker and Schrapnel. If I specialized in shooting animals,varmints, or anything else beyond 600 yards,agree turrets are the way to go. But on a rifle intended for BG hunting out to 600 yards,I don't want nor need the additional complication of a turret.

My biggest beef with dots,hashes, etc is the same beef I have with skinny wire duplex reticles. If shooting towards a very busy/brushy background, or especially when light is pretty poor, my 52 year old eyes cannot see all the thin, "busy" stuff.

Yeah, just make sure you pick the right line when viewing a christmas tree reticle through your scope.

I guess this is a different strokes for different folks thing. I think I just prefer the uncluttered view that I have in my Zeiss Conquest. Nice bold reticle.

I have a Leupold VX3 on the other hand with a varmint reticle with thin holdover lines and it is cluttered.

Unlike the rest of you guys I haven't had to deal with turrets or ballistic reticles in a hunting situation as I am new to hunting but I *think* for me, if I am using a range finder to range an animal, getting setup in a comfortable position with my shooting sticks and the animal is 400 yards away, I'm far enough that I can turn a an elevation turret and also calculate windage and compensate for it.

I may be wrong and may decide the ballistic reticle is the way forward but I will probably go ahead and try the turrets first.

I dont need to touch the power ring, because if I need to use the BR feture the target is at long range and the scope is at max power anyway.

Its pretty hard to screw that up when they are clearly labeled like the Rapid Z reticles are.

If you are no more familiar with your equipment than that, you had better only shoot one caliber with one rifle. Yet a scope with turrets screwed up, down, side to side is a better way to go...

Come on back in a few years when you have enough experience to see the difference.

You obviously have never run turrets. I don't dial wind, I hold for wind.

That leaves one simple dial on top of your scope. You can simplify them even more if you go with a CDS type dial, but I like MOA.

I've owned holdover reticles and the intersections never match up exactly with what I am shooting so what is the point? Better than true Kentucky windage but that is about it.

Definition of cluster-[bleep]:



Not a cluster-[bleep]:

Of course you pic the 1000 yard version of the rapid Z.... The Rapid Z 6,8 are much less busy.
A true cluster fuq is a spinning dial mounted atop your rifle...

Every scope requires spinning a dial at some point. I will give you a hint, you don't have to spin if you don't want. I don't spin until 300 plus. I don't consider just hitting a 12" target as precise shooting though.

Nevermind those holdover reticles are only calibrated for use at the highest power. A turret works throughout the whole range.

Sniper boy fantasies aside, a BR is plenty accurate enough for shooting elk.

Some of the dumbest [bleep] i've read in a long time is in this thread.

Some of us are able to walk and chew gum at the same time as well, dont hate.

Man this turrets vs ballistic reticles stuff sure stirs up passions! I had no idea people felt so strongly about them.

I have both sorta. The 6500 has mill dots and the z5 has a Ballistic Turret. I discovered if I set the magnification on 18X in the 6500 my Savage .257 Weatherby (which is sighted in at 300 yards) is on at 420 with the first dot. With the second dot it is on at 550 and at 600 with the third dot.

The z5 is also zeroed at 300. The first twist up is 450 yards. The others have not been set.

dogcatcher I am a pretty simple guy....

Most of my scopes are fixed powers,have nothing more than standard,clean,duplex reticles,and for years my biggest reticle "trick" was learning (through shooting) that the bottom post of a 4X Leupold duplex corresponds to the trajectory of a 300 or 7mm magnum at 600 yards from a 300 yard "zero".

I have used that combination a handful of times to polish off bull elk,and antelope between 400-500 yards.Despite killing a pretty fair number of decent mule deer bucks I have yet to have to kill one beyond 350 yards.....luck of the draw or just how I hunt them, I guess.In any event they were all killed without the benefit of turrets and rangefinders.....you see I shot a lot...at the range and at varmints....for lots of years.

My only "trick" scope is a 6x36 LR with two dots; I don't own any christmas tree reticles, nor do I own turrets. Coincidentally,those dots match the trajectory of my 7mm Mashburn perfectly,at 400,500,and 600 yards,as I have learned through shooting.

I don't pick the wrong dot....I am smarter than that and know my gear too well.

I just love it when someone gets on here and tells me how I will "fail" to kill unless I follow their advise when it comes to methods for shooting BG animals when I have already done successfully what they advise against....and because I am not following them down the same technology path they have decided they cannot do without.Or I will screw up in the fashion they describe unless I follow their advise.

Like Schrapnel says, know your gear or stay home.

I'm generally a dialer and that is because I've shot with and tested both dialing and holding.

From reading the replies it seems to be evident that none have extensively used both dialing for elevation and holding for elevation using a BDC reticle to gain an understanding of the various attributes and problems with both methods.


There are a few points that are relative to this discussion in no particular order-

[i]
Almost always the participants have little to no training or competitive background in long range field shooting.

They do not practice at long range very much

They do not use scopes that are repeatable and consistent in adjustment

They usually have not verified their rifles drop and scope and when they do it usually is at relatively large targets at even yardages (300, 400, 500, etc)

They usually don't test from field positions, prone/sitting/kneeling and improvised rests

They don't usually test when they are cold, out of breath, excited, tired, fatigued,

They generally don't practice long range shooting in high winds

And the big one: they claim that "holding" is faster than "dialing" even though they have never timed it. [/i]


Put a shooter (any shooter) on a single 8 inch target at an odd yardage (say 471 yards, etc), in winds from 8-12 mph from an improvised uncomfortable shooting position, when they are tired, out of breath, can barely feel their fingers and it drizzling, and I guarantee you they will be faster to get a hit dialing for elevation/holding for wind than trying to judge the distance between two tick marks for elevation and holding out into space for wind.

Thanks for the laughs.

Formidilosus, what scopes do you like on your LR big game rigs?

Grow up.

You do things your way.....I'll do them mine. When mine stop working, I'll ask for your advise.

Don't hold your breath.

Never ceases to amaze me the guys that make simple tasks dificult/complicated.

Having used dialing to the direct range (custom BDC, the best solution for huntng), dialing the appropriate adjustment to the optic based on a chart or a computer generated firing solution, using a holdover based on the reticle, and just using a WAG I can say I prefer to directly dial the range vial a custom BDC (Bullet Drop Compensator).

Having said that I would also say that it is silly and stupid tell a guy who has successfully hunted for decades that his personal choice is wrong simply because I have a way that works better for me.

I know Bobinnh has dialed because he has actually used my personal rifle yet he choose a different path. That is what makes the world go around and makes choices for us all.

Bob is also sort of a curmudgeon but we are working on him (or is he working on us??).

Lots of choices. I might suggest we try lots of styles and shoot lots of practice before we decide what is best for our style of shooting and hunting.

Well...hell,John of course I'm sort of a curmudgeon. I'm 63 and I have earned it!

But the last three bucks I've killed, two of them were at app.340 and 330 yards and on one I could not get a reading with LRF because I was on my belly in knee-high buck brush and had to eyeball it;the other was hightailing it after a doe across a power line,and if I did not kill it before it reached the other side,it was "gone".(In both instances I got to read the distance AFTER I killed them because I couldn't do it before...circumstances did not allow.)

But I "knew" both were easily within PBR of the 270 and the Mashburn and considering circumstances I hit where I needed(wanted) to each time;one from prone over bins stuck in the dirt, and one wrapped in the sling from the sit.....so what was I supposed to do?

After you left the ranch I killed a 180-class buck spotted from a "long ways", north of the Freezeout; I crawled up there, jumped him off a bench and killed him first shot on the run at about 75 yards....we take what we can get sometimes and curmudgeon-hood was foisted on me and those were the cards I was dealt.

I don't claim to be the best rifle shot in the world,and don't have the skill sets of guys like you and Formidolosis but if I had not been a somewhat seasoned curmudgeon I might not have killed any of them

You know I don't have a thing in the world against dialing with a known scope and rifle,and consider it another "tool";and have said many times on here that my ability to practice regularly(something I believe in)...is limited to 600 yards and I would not dream of shooting at a live animal at a distance,or under circumstances I was not reasonably certain of killing it.I have walked away or passed on quite a few when it was questionable


You also know I was very impressed with your 264 and how you had it set up,as it is the only rifle I have ever shot that hit anything at 1200 yards! You can't make hits at those distances without dialing up and I recognize that all too well.

Thanks for your thoughts on this ...always appreciated.

Bob,

My point was more to the fellas who think dialing is the only answer for everybody or that holdover is the only answer for everybody. I know you have done both and holdover is your preferred method for hunting situations.

The curmudgeon remark was a little shot of irony. Some of the other guys seemed to have the "my way is the only way" hardening of the attitude.

OP - have you looked at the Leupold VX-6 3-18 X 44 or 50?

B&C reticle or Custom Drop Dial - drop reticles work at only one magnification unless in a first focal plane 'scope.

Would seem to have the kind of magnification range you want. I have one and can attest to the quality of its optics ... throughout the 6X soom range at all points.

Or the VX-6 2-12 X 42 ...

Hi Roger. Thanks so much for the suggestion. I have not considered it and will. I have a VX3, 6-20 (I think) on a Cooper .223 and am not particularly fond of the scope. I really ought to figure out why but it is related to eye relief. I actually prefer the Bushnell Elite 6-24x over it but neither hold a candle to the Zeiss conquest 3-9x 40 mm I have.

Some other scopes I've added to the mix to consider are NightForce 2-10x, 3-15x and a Schmidt and Bender something. I used to see a Precision Hunter S&B advertised but don't anymore.

Bob,
I concur whole heartedly with you assessment. The only thing a guy has to remember is (as long as the scope reticle is in the 2nd image plane) to turn the power ring to the max power setting. IMHO keep it simple and practice. Out to 500 yards with a ballistic reticle a 3.5 x 10 or a 2 x 12 (especially in a VX6) is as good as it gets. Personally I am not concerned about great groups as much as I am concerned about dinging the 12" steel plates every time the gun barks.
Turrets especially the yardage marked CDS style are nice but as you put it there is potential for a lot of things to happen in a short period of time that can make a dramatic difference in POI. Reticle equipped -- Range, point and settle in, Squeeze.

Dave

John,
Well said. Was not sure about the curmudgeon part or at least I wasn't until Bob said it was so. Whatever floats a guys boat. Personally I have stuck with reticles, practice with them (from odd positions and in different conditions) and use the same reticles in every scope.
On the other hand I have a couple of friends who are flat deadly dialing. They are especially deadly at ranges way past where I would take a shot at a game animal unless I was using a rifle with a turret. Shooter (by Sean Kennedy) on my IPhone, and a load programmed in said App, and had practiced adequately.
Fun to discuss. BTW one of my friends previously mentioned was the first shooter to shoot a 400 score at Rainer's Range in Zanesville, Ohio with his 6.5x47 Savage equipped with a Shilen Select Match 28" Bull Barrel. He was dialing of course.

Dave

To be clear I was specifically NOT talking about Bob or those who have put in the work of learning to shoot in the field and have chosen something different.

The 6x Leupolds are very good scopes and with the LR dot reticle they are probably the perfect choice for the majority if hunters, especially those concerned with light weight.


I shot some brief timed drills yesterday just to see how it came out between holding and dialing. Once I get the pics loaded I will post it.

Starting with a picture of the target array



The two 8 inch lolli-poppers (one's broken) are at 390 yards.
Then a 3 inch circle and colt speed plate at 400.
Behind and to the right is a 12 and 4 inch plate at 440 yards, as well as a rectangle.
Behind and to the left of them is a 6 inch circle at 462 yards.
And the farthest targets are a 12 and 4 inch square at 475 yards.

The drill was simple- starting with loaded rifle and rangefinder in hand, on the buzzer drop down either prone or kneeling on a barricade and fire one shot alternating holding both elevation and windage, and dialing for elevation and holding wind. Record the time and whether it was a hit or not. Data for the gun was well known and the wind was variable from almost no correction to 1.1 mils of hold.

Remember that the starting position was the same for each shot, the rangefinder was used for each shot, the turret was reset to "0" and the magnification was turned down to start each shot. The same gun and scope was used for every shot.

Results-




Overall, as has been the same every time we do it given the same skill level between dialing and holding, dialing was both faster and more accurate. Now I will state that the time difference was almost a non-factor. There were fifteen shots taken with each method and the average time was less than a second faster for dialing. I did miss two more targets holding than I did for dialing and that is to be expected.


Love the theory of the- "5 seconds or he's gone" scenarios.

Your sure making alot of assumptions and painting with a broad brush, no?

Are you consulting your drop chart between shots as one would have to do in the field under distances that cant be planned for?
Are you worried about your turret taking a spin as it rubs against something like a scabbard?
IMO Too much farting around for hunting and I am standing by that. YMMV.

By your last post no, I'm not.

Yes, every shot was referenced off a drop chart.

No, I'm not worried about a turret spinning from rubbing up against something because I use scopes that are designed properly.

There is no "farting" around and that statement makes it obvious that you have not used both nearly enough to understand that.

This is generally one of those cases where people don't know what they don't know. They think dialing means donning reading glasses and slooowwly counting every click. It's not. You rip a turret to a number. In straight up measured time, it takes less than two seconds.

I use both methods nearly every day, and if I need to make a shot on one target, at one range I dial elevation and hold for wind because it results in more hits.

For some one that knows it all you sure are slow on the trigger.

Run a similar test and be honest with the results. I know, I for one, would be interested in comparing your times to his.

I prefer ballistic reticles over door nobs. A Zeiss Rapid Z or Swaro BRH once entered into a simple BR calculator found on the Mfr website and then field tested makes it simple and effective to kill game at long distances.

All scopes mentioned are top-notch....grab one & go shoot

I'm not trying to change minds or anything, I really dont care what a guy uses. But some of these arguments are pretty silly.

Bw, a little secret most turret twisters keep Most of us along with the turrets use an MOA or MIL reticle, and believe it or not we know where to put those marks at certain ranges (this was just demonstrated to you, with pictures and all), sounds a lot like the way you do things eh? The more practiced among us can even use that reticle to get a pretty good range on critters if there is an LRF break down.

Some also seem think that since we have a turret on top that we MUST dial in for every shot, why some think that i have no idea..It isnt like we forgot how to use MPBR, Most of us can manage min of deer out to 400 or so without touching a damned thing, not using anything but the center crosshair , just like in the old days..

Simply put for the guys that like turrets is there is no downside.Or "farting around" as you would put it.

Same can be said of turret twisters rosco. I have a couple of the CDS systems. Even though they may have a 200 yard zero, I set the dial on 265'ish (MPBR) so I'm good out to 340. As I said before, I can see the duplex reticle easier than a bunch of thin wires and dots in poor light/poor background, which is why I personally like the CDS dials and not ballistic reticles.

That's kinda what I was saying.. I probly didn't communicate it very clearly tho.

Options and being able to do it all, is never a downside...

All you turret turners, I'm curious to hear which scopes as what model of scope you use.

So far I've assumed that expose target turrets that are not capped, zero stops ect would be highly desirable for turret turners among us. Yet I don't find them on many scopes.

So?? Do you just take the caps off and dial?

These are what I'm playing with this week.




2x Bushnell 2.5-21x HDMR'S with H59 reticle
1x Nightforce F1
1x Nightforce 2.5-10x
1x SWFA SA 3-9x

I planned to, if nothing else for my own curiosity.

Good deal, looking forward to the report.

Sweet.

I started it just like hunting. Rangefinder around my neck, rifle in hand with scope set to 3x and turrets set to 100 yard zero or in the case of using the reticle like a BDC, turret was set to 200 yards. I used a shot timer (CED 7000) set to random delay, and on the buzzer dropped to prone, ranged the target, turned the power up to 9x and if using the turrets dialed the range. 1 shot per target. No oopsies or alibis.

It can be shot faster however, there will be more misses. That 20 second range is right about the limit for good hits.

This has been a highly educational thread.

I made a decision today on a scope and I'm happy with it. Like most of you, the reality is that I will probably try both methods at some point and decide for myself which is right for me.

This time around, for my Cooper 280AI, I found a dealer here in Canada with a Swarovski Z5 3.5-18x with Ballistic Turrets and a 4W reticle. I got a good price on it for Canada and decided to go ahead with it. Should be in the mail soon.

I was weighing it against my second choice, the Leica ER 3-14x with target (AVS) turrets and the IBR reticle; this scope seems to be the best of both worlds allowing you to holdover or dial the turret.

However, I decided in favour of the Swaro as a result of their amazing customer service.

My dealer helped immensely in making the decision. If you are in Canada and looking for high quality optics, reach out to Omer at PlainSight Solutions. You can find his contact info on the CGN forums or PM me. Super nice guy. Took a good 20 min on the phone with me.

Oh and today I FINALLY got to see the Swaro BRH reticle. I have to admit it is VERY nice reticle and not to cluttered. I think I could easily see myself using it for a holdover. If they offered the BRH with the BT, I'd get that.

After you spin your turret and ring a gong/smack flesh for the first time you will never question your decision.

Tanner

It never even dawned on me to actually uses a scopes abilities to my favor until I stumbled across this site and read posts from Big Stick and Steelhead. One single point of aim certainly does make things simple. Turn the turret to a number and rock on.

Simple works pretty good for me too. I like it that way.