I have not purchased a new Leupold in 30 years (that's how long they last) but I would like to get a new VX-6. Rather than sidetrack a couple of other threads about the VX-6 right now I thought I would ask this question, so school me on this: What is the difference between M1 and CDS. I don't do much long range shooting; however the other day I saw a nice buck on a pipeline that was at least 500 yards away. I realized then that I had no clue how to shoot that far with my current Vari-x II setup.

What are the differences between M1 and CDS. I do not need a dedicated long range gun, just a better ability to practice for those occassions when I might have to reach out there.

Dan

I don't think you can get an M1 on VX-6, but the difference is one is flush and un capped versus 7/8" and capped. If you want M1's go VX-3.

Anxious to hear the answers. It seems the serious guys swear by the M1 for long range. I am not that serious, so I bought a CDS, and have practiced quite a bit with it out to 500 (don't plan on shooting farther than that...) and I can't imagine a system being simpler. Mine is in place for that shot that present itself above and beyond the 300 yards or less where most of my game is taken. Soooo with what little exposure Ive had, and the guys Ive asked on this forum whom I trust, it seems like the M1 for serious repetitive long range shooting, and the CDS for us simpler souls......

The CDS is a low profile turret and can be utilized as a regular turret (MOA) or you can have a turret made for your specific load. The CDS can also be had with or without a zero stop. It is not a capped turret. It remains exposed.

The M1 is a standard turret (also exposed) and is used as a standard MOA turret. It cannot be had with a zero stop. It is by far the most preferred turret offered by Leupold and for good reason. The clicks are positive, the numbers are easy to read, and it can be easily used with wet, cold, and gloved hands.

The CDS moves more easily. I have not had problems due to this, but they do move more easily.

IMO zero stops are fine if you don't need more than one revolution of the turret, but they are by no means necessary.

If I were going to recommend a turret to a person that wants to learn to use turrets, I would recommend the M1.



Travis

This pretty well sums it up for me.

I think those who shoot very long distances in wind, etc., hunting and target, need something more. That's not what I need or want, as I seldom shoot over 500 yds. and where I hunt, wind isn't a major issue.

Agreeing with Ingwe...

What's the world coming to...

DF

CDS offers easier or softer clicks, lower profile,and some what smaller numbers,and only 1 revolution if a zero stops used!

Target turrets come capped, M1's are not covered!

Factory M1's are not available with a zero stop but recently an aftermarket ZS is being offered, M1's are designed to use all the elevation in the scope, M1's are taller and offer very positive clicks!

I prefer my M1's to my cds but they both pretty much do the same thing out to 700 yds give or take!

Pat yourself on the back, the world is about to get better for you.


Only the most astute and intelligent can grasp my concepts....

So, my world is gonna brighten up...

DF

Yep! You're gonna need those shades!

I don't have, and have never used, the M1. I am very pleased with the CDS for my application though. I have my own limitations on range for hunting based on the limited amount of longer range field shooting I get to do throughout the year. The CDS is a very easy way to add a level of precision out to 500yds (my range). I also like the lower profile and the zero stop. I trust the opinions of those who prefer the M1 for their application, but the CDS is also very good for it's intended use.

I have had cds turrets move while attached to a pack. M1's never have for me. This is a big consideration for me. Nothing like a guess of zero on a large deer.

I used a CDS last year and played with another one over the summer. After spending some time with them I don't dislike them as much as I originally did. For my use...

1. Only with a 0-stop to counter the easy turn..which makes them a 1 rotation dial. Fine for most hunting.
2. Only with a generic dial. I don't have a use for load specific dial limitations. Would be nice if the numbers were all shown (somebody had one made), but I can live with the generic.


M1's have a lot of advantages over the CDS and the further the distance, the more those advantages stand out. That said, CDS with a 0-stop and generic dial is a low profile handy package at hunting ranges.

Did not know of a zero stop for a cds. I will call leupold when i can.

.

I have the Burris' C4 scope, like Leupold's CDS.

I have the scope marked how many revolutions from grounded the zero is. On mine, with my load, two and 1/2 revolutions bring me back to true zero.

I'm sure that's the same with the CDS.

I just print a label with the info and stick it on the objective bell.

You can do it yourself. There was a thread here a while back with details. I've done two. It takes about 5 minutes to do.

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...s/7847842/Leupold_CDS_MOA_zero_stop_How_

Scope getting dumped though. Thanks.

M1 muy bueno....

I have a cds and a M1. The cds has turned just by placing in and getting out of a soft gun case. The M1 is much tougher to move accidentally. The cds has trained me to check the turret.

I would be very happy with the moa cds dial if it had more resistance.

Positive stops with a cap like this and CDS wouldn't be near the POS that it is

16bore - pardon my ignorance but how do I get a cap like the middle one in your photo above?

Photoshop!

I sent it to Leupold and I think it was $60 to do it. Never got one though. Can't remember but I was wanting "Bad Mother F*cker" on the top where they normally printed the load data. I don't recall if they said they'd do it or not.

Just copy the pic and send it.

You can get a tape-on drop that fits your dial from customturrets.com for $26 delivered.

Any scope with a turret, any load.

Just enter the data on the site.

That really is an improvement!

I think Kenton beat me to it....

Kenton Turret

Your's is betterer!

I believe a royalty check is in order!

Now I'm forced to order one. Any idea how to get the stops more positive?

Install a M1.......

I love the M1 and will have more, but the CDS is simply junk. I know there are things that can be done to make the CDS not suck as bad, but it'll never be a M1 or even close. I won't say that they're any worse than other makers attempt to court the market, but why run something so clearly inferior if you're going to actually use it???

I could deal with the dial if the stops were more M1'ish. Far cry from it.

That's my primary complaint. I've yet to spin a CDS dial and like the way it feels or responds......

Last week I was out elk hunting in the hills and was the first time I had a CDS in the field. After three days of hunting I had my first chance at a cow.

Only the upper half of her was exposed, but I had a decent shot (125-150) and I took it. Shot ended up being a little higher than I expected, but a dead elk nevertheless.

Looked at my CDS and it had spun up 6 clicks. I know I had checked it once or twice, but was in and out of the truck/case and through plenty of trash in the woods.

I would prefer the CDS above over the factory one, and if forced to suffer CDS again, I'd find a way to cut most of the knurling off of the CDS knob so it would be more difficult to turn accidently

Strapped to a pack and it's spintacular....

I like the CDS for hunting rifles (most of mine can get me to ~700yds max). I just get custom turrets like shown above (except I didn't think of the "graduated" steps for each 1/2 MOA) - every MOA marked and with zero stop. They are definitely not as solid of a click as M1's. I haven't had any issues myself, but see how they can/do move accidentally and do wish they were more solid and harder to turn. Only real reason I use them over M1's is the low profile.

I really like the concept of the CDS, but the execution is marginal at best regarding the "positiveness" of the clicks. I've not been impressed with the function of the VX3 adjustments ever since they went to the finger adjustable caps that don't require a coin/tool. It just seems to accentuate the imprecise nature of the clicks. That said, for hunting they are fine, if they stay in place.

Haven't tried the CDS, but just ordered a VX3 4.5-14x40 CDS. We'll see. I do like the M1 turrets on MK4's, so I know I'd like one on a VX or FX scope....just never have sent one in.

For 500 yds or less a scope with a long range reticle will cover all you're needs quicker and more efficiently. IMO

Please note that IMO stands for " In My Opinion" I am not claiming this to be fact even though it is.

I believe leupold offers a number of them.

Shod

Odd you mention it, I had a rifle with CDS and a rifle with Leupold LR reticle side by side at the range the other day, but only shooting out to 400 yards.

Essentially no difference. Didn't feel handicapped by either.

+1.Same thing happened to me. I learned to keep a watchful eye on the dial. I let a buddy shoot my EW with the VX3 3.5-10x40 W/CDS and he was shooting way high. Checked the dial and sure as chit it had turned to about 3-4. That was a nuisance, as well as a common occurrence with that scope.

I guess I'm the odd man out. I have several CDS equipped rifles and find they work very well for me. The zero stop makes them foolproof IMO. Conditions would have to be perfect for me to shoot long range at big game, but it's sure fun to blast 'yotes, hogs, and misc hard targets.

400 is about where the LR reticle starts to not work for me. Once you get over 400 there starts to be a lot of air between the 400 dot and the 500 yd aim point on top of the post. The LR reticle really only covers about 99.99% of my hunting shot opportunities....

David

Nope...Im odd too, but as stated earlier, I truly don't plan on shooting past 400 yards. Mine is on a .243 and surely you can hit them farther away than that...but I want to kill them.

Same here...99.9%


Trying it out one day I lazered a gopher at 467 in a 25 mph wind. Held right above the 500 yd. mark, and hung it into the wind a matter of a few feet, figuring I could fire and adjust for the next shot.

That .1% and divine intervention landed that bullet on that poor gopher...

I hope you had a witness so you could play like you make those shots 1st time every time. I once shot a starling first shot with 17 hmr just a little under 200 with the whole camp watching. Poof of feathers and the little carcass falling off the purple martin house by the pond. Quietly put the rifle away and went back to bidness like it was an everyday thing with several astonished onlookers....

David

Only one witness and he was as surprised as me and the gopher was!

Best way I could describe the CDS stops would be "mushy". Shot a M1, SWFA, and CDS today. Sombody mentioned the low profile, which I do like.


Oh, and shot a buds VX1 with the finger adjustments. Oof.....

I'm going to throw a 3rd option out there.

Boone & Crocket reticle, if your a dedicated Leupold user. It has marks out to 500 yds with 10 mph windage holds to 400. With the right rangefinder, 500 yds should not be an issue.

Slidellkid, do you have a rangefinder? If not, I would suggest a Leica 1600 or 1600B. They both have a feature called EHR or Equivalent Horizontal Range. Each of the range finders has 12 internal ballistic curves. You pick the the curve closest to your rifles ballistic curve. One can get pretty close, especially if 500 yds is the max distance. The Leica's will take into account the temp, baro pressure and angle and give you an adjusted range to hold for. Example; your true distance is 450 yds but due to one or all the variables (temp, baro, angle), the range finder will first give 450 then, say, 411 yds. You then use the 400 yd crosshair with a skootch more holdover, say an inch, and you've got venison on the ground. No dialing. No worrying about the dial accidentally turning when you least expect it. No tall dials. Just point and shoot.

With that said, i'm a dialing fiend! I dial as well as hold over in moa for competition and LR hunting. I dialed a few weeks back to kill my spike elk at 950 yds. I own CDS, B&C and pure dialing scopes. I use them all and love them all.

Just another option.

Alan

Never had a CDS move, but really, how hard is it to glance at the dial before squeezing off a shot?

I also always check my CDS dial before the shot. I range the distance and then check or adjust the CDS dial to match the ranged distance.

Contrary to many others, I've had M1 turrets move unintentionally. But you check the drag before casting.

With long range reticle my hunting partner ranges while I'm getting on target and 3 seconds later......bang....flop!

With CDS Its range....3 second dial....3 second getting on target and the 8 point bull elk just ducked in the trees.

Shod

While it may seem that way, I guarantee that you aren't flopping down and shooting in 3 seconds.

It takes about 2 minutes of practice to learn to spin a dial in 2 seconds or less. From seeing and teaching hundreds of shooters there is zero doubt that it is faster for the majority to HIT vital sized targets in the field dialing versus holding.

I've never had a CDS spin on its own, but I don't use saddle scabbards and am careful with my rifles.

I guess it depends on how one handles his firearm and the type hunting one is engaged in.

To me, the CDS is a simple solution for a simple hunter. Did I say "simple minded"...

That may apply, too...

DF

I may very well resemble that remark......

Were you talking to me (if not you should have been) I've gotten myself into more discussions around here lately than ever before on this dial spinning stuff. Not sure why I've wasted my time on it when a gusting 15-25mph wind will render every turret, hash, dot, dial, useless anyway.

That's some funny schit.



Travis

I try not to get too deep into the subject because A) I don't have much experience spinning turrets and B)My CDS works great and doesn't feel 'mushy' to me!

I respect LR hunters and target shooter who can do the real long range stuff, read the wind, etc.

That's not me, never has been and probably never will be. It's like we're talking about two different worlds.

In my world, making a 500 yd. shot at a hog, 'yote, etc. across a bean field or down a power line is a LR shot. I generally don't shoot at deer that far, because I can't read a rack at those distances.

If I see a whopper of a rack and know it's a real shooter, I want to be able to crank in the yardage and take the shot. Hogs and other vermin are targets of opportunity. I don't really care if they're gut shot, etc., just shot...

I'm a lot more careful with deer.

DF

The truth is painful at times.

Yeah...its one thing I will agree with Stick on....elevation is physics, the wind is voodoo....

Any exposed turret that goes on my back over a backpack gets taped. CDS spins the most.

Gotta be blue tape, don't ya know...

DF

Any one tried Kenton's CDR dial on a CDS equipped Leupold?What think you?

If you think that is the truth you should probably shoot in the wind some more.



Travis

You're quite the comedian.

A comedian that has figured out how to shoot in the wind too!

UBER diverse!



Travis

JG, Are you saying "every turret...." meaning elevation turrets don't work in the wind?

I'm pretty sure what he's saying is, guesstimating wind speed, especially at longer distances, is more difficult than shooting distance alone.

I put a weather vane on my windage turret and now its self adjusting.

What if I invited you out here to chase outsize muley bucks under the following circumstances....

I'd put you on a 180" buck, but you had to kill it at 750+ yards, in a 20+mph wind. If you miss, or wound, you owe me $10,000. If you kill it dead, you owe me nothing, and I'm out the per gun fee for your hunt. What would you do?

That's a bet 95% of hunters wouldn't take, even at 300 yards with no wind!

Punt.

He and a few others make it out to be no trick, I wanted to give him a chance to put his money where his foul-mouth is. I'm hoping he'll be my 401K for the next few years. FWIW, I'd take that 300 yard bet, in no wind, any day of the week and several times on Sundays! I'm not worried about finding him a 180" deer, I'd like the chance to watch him sweat.

You and most guys on this board are not in the 95% of hunters category

I missed that post where Travis claimed he could make a 750yard shot in a 20mph crosswind.

Link?

David

Canazes9,



Straw men are easy to beat.

Can I get in on the 300 yd. no wind thing? I need beer money for camp.

Where do I sign up?

I'd tell you how stupid your comment regarding turrets and reticles was.



Travis

What if I tell Travis that he can come hunt Mule deer and all he has to do is bring Beer and lots of ammo...?

The optics forum is sooooooooo entertaining . Yet strangely irritating at the same time.

I like they way you think. Where do I sign up?

You have to make a 750 yard shot in 20mph+ wind and hit a beer can first. I've already seen Travis do it.

Tanner

Offhand.

Piece of cake. I'll hit a beer can before and after

Just wait until he closes the gate during feeding time, then plunk him....

Most guys would chit themselves if they'd spend time just shooting groups at 200 yards in chit wind/conditions and hold "zero". Then you can see what voodoo is all about.

Not sure what you mean....

Something like that......

My buds run when there's a gnats fart breeze.

It will separate the men from the boys in short order....

I certainly wouldn't bet against you at 300 with no wind, that's for sure.

And I'd watch you, being a wind doping expert, make a fool out of yourself.

Travis said he was a wind doping expert?

Did he use the word "Uber"?

Link?

David

Make sense now?

That'd afford you an opportunity to know how we feel when we read your posts.

Thanks for deeming me a wind doping expert by the way.



Travis

UBER posterity.



Travis

Nice job avoiding answering my question. I consider it a compliment that not everyone likes, or agrees with me.

Interesting thread...l read the whole thing. Thanks to those who took the time to explain the differences and like almost any subject on the CF opinions vary.

I liked Alan's approach finding value in each system depending on distances and circumstances, including the reticle compensation. I have done a hill of beans worth of turret twisting. The thoughts of a turret that will move by accident makes my blood run cold.

I am inclined to find the shortest distance between two dots since too much complication tends to distract in the heat o f shooting animals. I solved some elk killing problems years ago once l fiscovered that the bottom post of a 4x Leupold corresponded pretty exactly at 600 yards to the trajectory of 180 gr or 160 bullets driven 3100 fps from a 300 or 7mm magnum. Crude but effective since it helped me drop a few between 450-500 yards.

4-5 years ago l also figured out that a 162 Amax at app 3200 would follow the dots on a 6-36 leupold with LR reticle to 500 and the tip of the post landed the bullets about an inch above. 6" circle at 600. This may not be as sophisticated as the turrets and limits options somewhat but in 40 years l have been unable too find an animal l really anted further than that.

My own personal opinion (which l don't care to debate) is that no one but hardenef competitive riflemen have much business making wind calls over one MOA on unwounded BG animals at distances much past 400 yards. It's too tricky and unlikely to result in the solid chest hits we all seek. There is no shame in holding off for another day

My personal opinion is that I spun these M1s and dropped a doe at 625yds as if hit by a bolt of lightning shot out of Thor's ass........

Oh yea, what was your question? $10K on an 800yd shot in 20mph winds? No JG, I don't gamble. It's a sin.


Travis

You're not far off. Having tried a bunch of different techniques with a bunch of non competitive, but trained hunters, using wind brackets and stopping at an "edge hold" has resulted in a pretty high hit rate. An edge being defined as the right or left edge of the vitals, which works out to about 1-2 MOA depending on animal. Reticle with mil or MOA hashes for wind holds stretch that out quite a bit.

Can I get in on this?

Long live the King.........

If you're serious.

If you really wanna play wind games, try 22LR at 330..

This would be the Court Jester...

I have enough trouble with 7mm's.

That's about 900 yards of 7mag drift...

I had an 85% hit rate for 60 targets at a SRM with constant 23mph winds, sideways snow, and high temperature of 23 degrees.

Funny thing about people who don't know wind, you stand outside with them in a 10mph wind and they will swear it is blowing 30...

RC has a rifle setup that makes a 750 yards shot in 20mph wind, about like a 308 at 400 or so. I wouldn't say that 400 yards with a 308 in those conditions is all that big a deal.....

just say'in.

OK, so.......congrats? If you've got $10,000 to risk..........and if I put you on a 190"er and you miss or wound, you owe me $15,000. You will not have a bench, terrain likely won't allow prone. Possibly sitting with a bipod/sticks, or standing off sticks.

You likely won't encounter "constant" wind here.

sitting with a bi-pod or sticks at 800 yards..

It will be interesting to see what moronic comment you'll come up with next

It's the terrain, not me Einstein. I don't care if he's standing on his head.

No Schitt!

Standing in back of my pickup, through a Kowa 884 (vignetting cropped out), at app 1000 yds.

[img:left][/img]

Just for clarification:

What happens if the buck appears at 500yds? Does RC have to back up to shoot?

If the wind is only 18mph, does he have to walk at a 2+mph pace while taking the shot?

Just curious...

David

Schitt Burns could make that shot off hand............

Hitting the beer can with your mouth doesn't count. ;-)

There's probably something funnier than JG's thoughts on wind. Probably.



Travis

Nuthin' like to optics forum to stir schitt.....



Where is Burns when you need him?

Tanning booth or getting a teeth whitening regimen I'll bet.

That's why I didn't pop off to Burns....

So Ric gets a 190" but Travis only gets a 180"?! WTF.... I'm calling BS. I'd demand 200" or no deal. Or an 80%er. Or both.

What?

I told you I have the redazzz, having to wait another 2 weeks to go kill something didn't I. Gotta vent somewhwere.

Burn some incense, recite your mantra,get the aroma-therapy pot going.....calm down.....


Alcohol helps too.

You must be fibbing.


Travis

It's only about 3 spins from a 50 yard zero.....

Or six beers...Just depends on which eye you use!

Followed by a facial, no doubt........

Now it's going to get ugly..

Nah. He knows we're just funnin' with him........

So was I. Burns is ok and has a good sense of humor too.

I agree on both counts. I'm certain he thinks I genuinely dislike him, but that isn't the case.......

It's really hard for me to dislike someone I've never met face to face.

If you eliminated the " Hunters Campfire " (you know, the guys who shouldn't be allowed to own guns and contribute nothing to the rest of the Campfire forum) I suspect that a lot of folks here would have fun and lots of laughs at a gathering.

Put Stick and Burns together and they'd be buds in 15 minutes......

My feelings as well. I know Stick rubs a lot of folks the wrong way, but I have to say that when ever I've asked his advise I haven't been steered in the wrong direction.

+1

DF

It's how he does the steering that's the problem.



P

You sound like a woman - "It's not what you said, it's how you said it...."

There's a guranteed strategy for taking the long way around in solving problems.

David

Sometimes it's healthy to get in touch with your feminine side.



P

I have been running a 3.5-10x CDS for the past four years on my main hunting rifle. I bought two of these scopes in 2010 when they came with two custom dials. I ordered two for the one rifle and it works great but it really limits you to one load out to around 650-700 yards. I ordered the other two dials today to be just like the dial in the middle above with a zero stop. I do like the CDS for it's low profile but those M1's are really the way to go.

You'd better be posting pics when they come in....

You got it man.

Except that they don't fit into a rifle scabbard on a saddle very well............

MM

I don't ride horses for what it's worth.

Sounds like a personal problem...............

MM

Guy walks into a saddlery and says, "I need a scabbard made with an extra slot for my M1 elevation turret."

The response?

GFY

Regarding CDS dials turning inadvertently in the field; I just finished a 5 day backpack coues hunt without any issues with my 2.5x8.

they fit my TrailMAX just fine...

I hate horses.




Travis

Alpo on the hoof.....

Rotten, hammerheaded animals..

I like 'em if they are cooked right...

Dirt stompers....

How many revolutions past zero was that M1 spun, 3 or 3.5 or 6?

That is zero.

Which is why guys do stuff with mounts to add moa. Which is why CDS dials are limited and the M1 trumps.

If you consider 600-700 yds limiting.......

Facts is facts.

15 MOA will cover 99% of what 99% of people "need" in a hunting rig. CDS isn't not a bad idea, just poor execution.

Show me the facts.....

yes that is zero (it's my scope, my rifle), but that set-up used up a bunch of elevation getting a zero. more than usual.

I later shimmed those mounts to get a bunch of elevation back.

Agreed. It is useful. It's just limiting. It's a great jump off point though. Training wheels in a way.

Your scope in the pic? I thought I just cut and pasted that schit from google to make the Leupie mock-up. The one on my M70 looks the same. Dunno about needing it. Pretty much for showing off at the range. Never dialed a critter with it and most likely won't need to anyway...

Got these today. I asked them to shorten the half minute but that is not what they did. I'll call em tomorrow and see what they say about it.

Schit, I like it. Tons better than the original. I don't know why they haven't been doing them like that all along.

that version looks serviceable but so does 16bore's version. wish they came that way.

missed this:





but anyway, I'd have a hard time giving up LRF/elevation turret myself.

Why did you want a shorter half minute?

And if I want one like yours do I ask Leupold for the Higbean Special?


P

Easier to read is all. Leupold told me they do them like this quite a bit.

@ toad- thats pretty damn funny because I did the mock up at work and just hit google images. Leupolds website is danger, danger according to the IT department. Very bad stuff...

@hibeam- I'm starting to think a 1/4 min mark thats 1/4 length, then 1/2 MOA mark thats half length and 3/4 mark thats 3/4 length might be something to think about.