As a general hunting scope for open country, which reticle?

They all look foreign to me so advice is appreciated

A night force Bob....Really??

Iave a NF 2- 10x32 with the MOAR ret. hunted with it in the fields and woods this past Nov in ND. Very user friendly. My next NF will be the 42mm model.

What about the IHR

bsa: I have "parts" hanging around for a 7mm magnum...Classic action, Brux#2,and Borden RR stock.

Thinking this could be a decent hunting rifle with a turret scope and I would not mind playing with one. Anyway i have not yet decided but am tossing all this around in my head. Wanted some learned opinions.

Sako I was thinking the IHR myself....looks very simple.

Bob, I think it would be cool. I've seen and looked through a couple. Extremely nice optics and strong as hell. I'd love to hear how one works out for you if you go that route. Your build sounds great..

Bob,

If you're going to play around with it a bit, then get the reticle to match the turrets (at least at 10 power), either the MOAR or the MIL-R depending on which set of units you prefer.

This scope has its share of fans, however IMO the exposed windage turret and the SFP design limit it as a hunting scope. I just don't find it versatile, or idiot proof enough for a hunting scope.

Might consider the Bushnell LRHS instead. It has a capped windage turret and FFP reticle that matches the elevation turret. The reticle is pretty fine, even at high power and it's MIL based. I'd prefer the main crosshair to be about 50% thicker and the donut eliminated. The thickness christmas tree matrix is about right.

Again, this is just my opinion/recommendation. As you know, others will differ. Good luck.

Louis

Your paying for mechanics with NF. They gather light very poorly. I bought a Dmr and can't believe how good it really is. I like it much more than my NF's. S&B pm2 for the best.

+1

I've compared my 10X42 S&B PMII to several NF models including the NF 2-10X42. I thought the NF glass was only slightly better than Leupold's. NFs are repeatable though, but so are Schmidts.

My shooting partner has a NF and I've heard the same from him. I've only used his during the day for target shooting, but I've been with him on an afternoon hunt or two. He has a Swaro on his other long range rig. He always complains about brightness of the NF where the Swaro is incredible in that regard.

LBJ/Rick: Thanks for comparing and contrasting. Just saying to Skane I am torn between one of these and the Schmidt.

Rick what is "Dmr"?

Bob if Not for short ranges that,10x42 pmII is a nice one

This does not match my experience in side by side comparisons when Nightforce was one of the scopes. So far nothing I have compared with a Nightforce was as good optically whether good light or low light. My exposure to Nightforce has been a 12-42X56 and a 5.5-22X56. To me they are smoking good stuff.

Hard to go wrong with either! I understand the new x42 model includes NF's most updated glass coatings. If working within a budget and making compromises, I'd surely sacrifice some optical brightness for mechanics. If there is no budget, S&B is tough to beat.

Bushnell Elite Tactical DMR 3.5-21x50.

Jordan,

We're spending Bob's money here - S&B it is.

I have two 5.5- 22-56. I think they are a great scope. For my eye' s the DMR is better. It's not a pm2 but it's 1/2 price.

The MOAR reticle is too fine and no one that I am around that has used both prefers it over the standard mil dot for hunting.

If you're getting a NF then get a reticle that offers something for wind. The IHR shouldn't even rate a consideration. I all but hate a standard Mil dot, but it is the best choice for hunting in a compact NF.


S&B makes nothing comparable to the 2.5-10x. NF, and the 42mm has excellent glass. Glass quality is almost purely subjective and has much more to do with personal bias than anything else. Manufacturers KNOW the exact properties of their glass. In any case it's a silly reason to choose a scope, and is generally the purview of amateurs.


S&B's are not what they were with regards to durability and reliability, and are not the "best". There are a whole bunch of military shooters not using their 4k issued S&B's. Despite what some think- zero retention and reliability matter.

What is the best? I'm interested

I checked the Bushnell Elite Tactical DMR 3.5-21x50. Weight: 35.2oz/998g That is the same neighborhood as the big Nightforce.

BS....you think you know a lot more than you really do. One of my best friends is a Special Forces Sniper Instructor who has been deployed all over the world. His go to scope on his work rifle is a 4-16X50 S&B PMII. I run the same scope on my work rifle, and have for the past six years,(three barrels)without any POI change through all kinds of climatic conditions, from 40*F below to 110*F. And as far as glass quality not making a difference, I disagree completely, the better you can see, the better you can shoot....anyone knows that. Would you rather have 20-15 vision, or 20-20 vision?

But Pat, since we're talking pros and amateurs here, can you turn a mundane elk hunt for a raghorn into an episode of Survivor? The pro's can.

LMAO..... !.....and on the money!

On one hand, we have a proven commodity. Mr. scenarshooter has been there, done that, in his modest unassuming way so many times I can't even remember. The guy just flat out knows what works, uses it, and has been kickingasss in the field for years and years. The other dude...well, his egomaniacal, regurgitated schtick has gotten old, fast. He is his own biggest fan.

I sat in a room years ago and observed an exchange between a USMC Scout Sniper (who's had a History Channel program done about him) and the former NCOIC of 5th SFG's Sniper School discuss S&B scopes. "Schidt and Bend-Overs" as the marine referred to them. The SF guy laughed.

Every one of the initial buy scopes had to be returned because they wouldn't track and hold a zero.

Much like Pat I've used the 4-16 on a work rifle many years. Removed animals off cut corn field 2 hours before shooting light.
Never had a issue don't know anybody that has. I heard my wife's step uncle had a illegitimate child that was a scout sniper. He thought they sucked.

You probably know a lot about sucking.

IOW, you have a personal rifle that you've babied, and really don't know if the damn thing will track 'cause you ain't checked it in years, if ever. Got it.

Laughing
I'll show you mine if you show me yours!

Yes, I'm quoting myself. Here is the perfect chance for one of you fat bastids who can't stand me to prove me wrong. Takers?

Not up with all the new NF reticles. I have wanted a 2-10x42 and have even had one in the shopping cart....but just can't pull the trigger on a scope costing that much and weighing 20 ozs for a hunting rifle.

I'd be afraid of myself if I ever crossed that threshold.

What were you doing in that room, busing tables, or sweeping the floor?

Listening and learning. You should give it a whirl. It might expand your horizons, like maybe learning the difference between a sling and a carry strap, like that schidt carry-strap you peddle off as a sling.

Why don't you and Pat compare photo albums. 4-3-2-1 - crickets.

Anyone that loads 185 Juggernauts to 2920 fps in a .308 has to be knowledgeable........right?

Give it a try, you want regret it, and they are not as expensive as it first seems.

$1350 MOAR link

It is not uncommon to have the MILR for $1350 as well.

Freakin' enabler.

Eurooptic is actually where I had one in the cart...haha.

Eurooptic will take a return as long as it hasn't been mounted. Give one a gaze and send it back if you don't like it. I know how that will turn out.

Eurooptic Return Policy

It's impressive and also sad how one person can be such a clueless dork.

Tanner

Bueller?

psycho?

Yep.

Who is this 4321 clown....

Yep, I'm a "psycho" for relying on what senior NCO sniper trainers have told me about untold dozens of S&B scopes they don't have [bleep] dime invested in but the campfire tard-set says trust a civvy who's ponied up considerable personal cash to buy one or two examples of same. Sounds like a tard tale to me.

You're a psycho because you've been banned and won't go away. You get your kicks out of punching members in the gut and laughing about it. Everybody makes fun of you because of you....of who you are.

Whatever.

So, that means I'm a psycho who's correct? Isn't that a contradiction in terms?

I'm done with it....shouldn't have said anything. And I'll not get caught up in your bullschitt.

No, let's compare Pat's impressive trophies to a guys' who doesn't even own a damn rifle:

http://www.amazon.com/Life-Full-Draw-Gregg-Gutschow/dp/0972132104

This is the optics forum. What kind of glass does a guy who doesn't use a rifle have?

Are you a politician per chance?
Chuck Adams isn't the one with diarrhea of the mouth.
4-3-2-1 - crickets.

So then we should all sit back and take your hearsay as Gospel... Who the f-u-c-k do you think you are... Somebody who took a 300-F1 course to skirt what it actually takes to become SF and then pound your chest on the internet about how cool you are and what a badass you are supposed to be... Your cute lil reference to the Combat Medic course is comical at best... Doesn't mean you were a medic in combat... Just means you handed out band aids for scraped knees and s-h-i-t... Don't mean you were "Tabbed"... Doesn't mean s-h-i-t in the real world... Your claims of hanging with Snipers, SOF, SOCOM,etc is your way of living vicariously via the internet and taking someone else's accounts as your own... How many S&B's have you handled/shot with that took a s-h-i-t on you personally... How many times have you had to put your life on the line behind an optic... Guys that do that s-h-i-t for a living don't troll a hunting site to brag about it... That is a given... you'd give the Tab a bad name...

To the OP... The 2.5-10x42 is a great optic... I use one every now and then when I can get out and hunt... the S&B's are also fine optics... I've owned a few and still own a 10x42 PM II...

elkhuntinguide: Thank you. I figured both were pretty darned good.

Thanks for proving my point.

Put up your money or STFU. I'll even take a POS S&B as collateral. How do you even know about 300F1? You flunk out of it?

No takers?

TAK, I'll pay for your tag, provide you a place to stay, and carry your extra tampons if you'll come and shoot a Mule deer with me next year. You have to use my Kimber Montana, but it will be a grand old time....

Tanner

Cute, but it would probably take me ten years worth of preference points to draw a good MD area in CO.

Its been my privilege to know several Special Forces members and trust me when I say our pal TAK isn't fit to shine their boots.

That's bullsheeit and you know it, but kudos on the artful dodge....

Tanner

Proper SF Troopers never were much on shining boots, especially other [bleep]'. You must be confused with the 82nd Airplane Gang.

The whole concept of the Quiet Professional is totally alien to your feeble, trolling mind isn't it?

Pretty much, yes. I'm still waitin' for someone to prove I'm FOS.

Money for what??? Collateral for what??? Never flunked 300-F1 as being a glorified nurse was not my calling... You calling people "Tards" is hilarious... You solidify that persona each and every time you post... You get called out for pics and resort to the only thing you can... Someone else's experiences and conquests as yours are extremely limited and couldn't make a scratch on Pat's accomplishments... EVER!!!! You'd be better off to step back and "Take A Knee" (pun intended) but continue on Hero... Your entertainment value is legendary...

For the Record... The S&B Contract scopes were not all returned... Only the ones that had a turret change by Premier had problems... Only the S&B's which Premier touched had issues... Premier was a half assed company thus the reason they went under... You'da fit right in...

Ask your super duper sniper lover about that... Obviously if you were in the know you woulda knowed...

Why do they have to be fat?

I am in the EXACT same holding pattern for both reasons you each mentioned.

That was to get around the Boland ammendment, but I wouldn't have expected a 300F1 dropout to know that. ALL the USMC S&B's had to come through a US contractor, PICKED and AGREED UPON by the manufacturer.

'Cause they eat schidt for food:)

Take A Knee will be along to agree shortly.

Come hunt with me then....OTC license. Only cost you $7500 'cause you're so easy to get along with.

TAK is gone forever.

To digress just a minute to respond to the original question with some actual hands on experience, I bought a NF NXS 2.5-10x42 with MOAR, external turrets and zero stop and used it a bit this season. Overall, the size is excellent, and it is solidly built like a full-size NXS. The optics are better than the 32mm's. The optics work well in all light, low light, and even dark.

The MOAR reticle works nicely for hunting. The "floating" crosshairs really make a nice aiming point, especially when in a hurry. The MOAR and MIL-R allow for holding for wind, holdovers, and to see needed corrections, which the IHR does not.

This model comes with a choice of capped turrets or exposed turrets, so pick whichever is preferred. I prefer external turrets as correction can be dialed quickly and easily. Zero stops are a must have on any scope in my experience and opinion.

This model has externally adjustable illumination, with five different intensity settings, and can switch between red and green by pressing the button. Red is easier on my eye. In practice, the lowest setting is the one that is useful in low light conditions to minimize constriction of the pupil. The illumination can be helpful to contrast a black reticle against a black feral pig in low light.

Overall, the scope is very solid, tracks and returns to zero reliably. I ended up selling it recently, as I prefer higher magnification for some of the shooting I do, but I probably will end up buying another at some point. Definitely would recommend it over any other compact scope that I've tried.

It is more compact than a S&B PMII 3-12, so they are really not directly analogous. Between the two, the S&B 3-12 is the stronger optically with the 50mm objective. The laws of physics are a constant, so a bigger objective provides more light gathering capability and a bigger exit pupil. I never found the compact NXS optics wanting in any potential shot.

fwiw - I have shot feral pigs by moonlight on two different occasions with my NXS 5.5-22x56. I've used S&B a bit, and like them of course, but always found the NXS met my needs and always works.



Customer of the NXS compact 2.5-10x42 from 125 yards.

Not if TAK is Bigsqueeze.
Do you know Judo?

Sadly, no.

Still stuck in the 80's Hero... I see your reading comprehension mirrors the context of your posts... Once again it solidifies that you are the Queen of Dumbasses... I typed as slow as I possibly could the first time in hopes you would be able to comprehend... I'll try again...

I never did nor would I take a 300-F1 course... I'll leave that to you "Candy Stripers"...

ALL S&B M8541 scopes that were issued in the first contract were not returned... Only the ones that Premier assembled in VA were... Once they discovered and corrected the problems the remaining scopes on the contract that were issued were fine...

Regale us with your experience and tall tales of running an M8541 Day Scope "In Country" and having it fail on you deep behind enemy lines "Gomer"... Have you ever had one fail while YOU were using it on your Sniper Rifle...

What really does any of this have to do with poor ole Bob's question for a good hunting scope... Do you troll the site looking for the attention that you crave but never get at home... Does claiming SF give you wood... Feel proud of yourself as you sit behind your keyboard, ribs sticking out screaming "GET SOME!!!!"...

If you were truly a "Quiet Professional" you'd give ole Bob a good recommendation and stop running your cock holster... We all know how that'll work out...

Jeffbird gave a great recommendation Bob... I myself run Mil-r/mrad but the NF Compact is a great scope... I've a couple and Really like them... Very robust, track extremely well, great glass...

So, only the effed up scopes were returned, which was the entire first shipment, and the first shipment, and the initial contract, was awarded to Premier. Got it. You stupid SOB.

On second thought, don't!

I wonder how NF sells scopes when some say their glass is "ok"

And given Bushnell Elite, Leupold, and Zeiss Conquest, and even lower end Swaro have glass that should do well in most any legal light.

Are the complaints on Resolution, color rendition, or ??

No doubt many Alpha brands like NF and S&B are heavy vs others.

Are there any tracking issues with M1s, as I've not heard.

Wow Clown Shoes... You almost got it right...

Now why not start your own thread about the POS M8541 and your plethora of knowledge and experience behind said scope and get out of ole Bob's thread or recommend Bob a good choice and move on...

I jumped into this inane thread because the above is a known fact among those "in-the-know" in SOF circles. The man knows exactly what he's talking about, unlike some here.

No, I got it EXACTLY right azzwipe. My experience with the USMC S&B is exactly one FAM course I helped run for some EOD guys who had them mounted on the Sage-stocked M14's. They had all been REPAIRED and appeared to work fine. I work with quite a few USMC types who've been to Scout Sniper School and many others.

Never heard anyone I know have anything but praise for any scope NF ever made. Buy with confidence.

There ya go Bob... NF all the way... Dick nose has spoken with all his super snipery experience... Which of course counts for absolutely nothing considering the source...

Seems like premier was "fixing" s&b's while also building and promoting their own brand...convenient how the s&b's had problems.....hmmmmmm

It's not even worth it......

You seem like a good dude, Pat. But you are wrong. I'm not guessing.

It wouldn't take much looking to find that out.

Bob

FYI

Some good info here

http://snipershide.scout.com/forums...nightforce-2-5-10x42-vs-other-nightforce

Sako: Thanks!

One thing about the Internet review of anything is if someone has a problem we are going to hear about it.

Bob that's true...even about stuff that never has problems

I don't need to look....I've been using those scopes for years without a hitch. They may not be for everyone, but they have been good to me.....and that's not a guess.

Bob
I Have a never had a problem with my NF scopes. I figure they will last my life. They are great tools. Was not my intent to start a fight. I will happily send a scope or rifle for you to try in any above which I spoke.
Best Rick Menefee

P.s. I'll know crawl back to the knife forum before being raped by a mall Ninja.

Then he should have the DSN # for Range 37. Have him call there and ask who the honor grad was for SOTIC class # 3-87. They all used to be up on the wall for all to see. Then you can "out" me. While you're at it, enjoy a great big cup of GFY this morning.

Whatever, Rambo......

Rick my game plan over the next year, as finances allow, is to acquire one of each and I have every confidence that both will meet expectations. Which one comes first depends on rifle logistics and not on preferences based on which I think is "better". I have very confidence both will work fine.

There are too many experienced people on here shooting both so that I am not worried about it.

That said thanks for the offer! I appreciate it and thanks to all who offered opinions on this. Demonstrations of passion for a product usually means that the user has had good experiences and that's good enough for me!

IME, those who have been there, done that, don't tend to engage in ostentatious bloviation...

DF

For grown men alot of guys are acting like my 5 and 8 year old children. Wow...
Dont come here much but this thread cements it.

Cheers!!

Welcome to the Fire...

DF

The Optics Forum has typically been a rough and tumble venue. Comparatively speaking, this thread has been quite tame!

LIVE ACTION!!

I have to agree and it' refreshing to see various opinions being shared by men with lots of experience with which they talk about. I have no doubt whatsoever that the Nightforce scopes are amongst the toughest scopes available today at any price and for any use they might encounter. They are, however, not the only game in town as it is also quite apparent that the Bushnell DMR (34mm) and LRHS are also very tough and dependable too. Then you have the SWFA SS scopes that are also proving that you don't have to spend $2000+ to get a rock solid dependable scope that holds it own with any of them.

I don't have an itch for a NF, although I appreciate the positive comments made about them.

I like good glass that's pretty simple, duplex reticle, maybe a hunting type elevation turret.

DF

jeffbird,
Thank you for the informative post. I have been considering one of these scopes for a medium weight hunting rifle. I shoot Nightforce scopes in competition and I am impressed with their optics and tracking. I wish they would release something identical to this, but with a first focal plane reticle. Maybe that is coming...

Some of you guys need to get up from the keyboard, go outside and take a deep breath.

Ha! I liken this to two Pop Warner coaches giving a lesson in toughness to Dick Butkus. I mean....really?

That's pretty much me as well. I can see the need for a mil type reticle for long range shooting and using the reticle for wind correction (guessing the voodoo) but I'm a guy that keeps my distances reasonable, for me anyway, so a target turret is all that I'll realistically need as I like to hold on hair, plus I have pretty flat shooting rifles (my 280 Ackley and 300 WM) so holdover is kept pretty reasonable anyway.

Taking nothing away from Pat whose posts are as informative as they are enjoyable, Formidilosus appears to have a significant and relevant background by many of his comments that I have seen. EHG, definitely carries weight.

Countdown 4321, no comment.

You're welcome Ryan.

I'll make one, GFY.

Take the whistle just in case.

Hopefully you didn't send me your last one.

That's about as original as the rest of your commentary.

What is Formid's background? I believe he is ex-military, which I have the utmost gratitude and respect for, but what is his background that makes him as much of an expert as he claims he is? I've asked him before and gotten no answer. Just curious.

What is Formid's background? I believe he is ex-military, which I have the utmost gratitude and respect for, but what is his background that makes him as much of an expert as he claims he is?
[/quote]

He shoots other people's ammo, a lot apparently. I have an idea or two where he works but that is his business. He and I were discussing Air Force CCT capabilities and training in a thread last week, he told me some things about them I did not know, and I was SF (and had CCT attatched to my ODA on occasion)

I just happened to be training some CCT guys this past week. Everything he said was spot on. No non-SOF guys would know that. Fact.

As I said, appear. Just reading the consistency and context of his comments over time creates an impression in my mind. I have no specifics. EHG, I do know a bit more, and his comments are definitely worth considering.

I have a clue but will let Formi fill you in if he desires. I will say we are fortunate to have his perspective, which i weigh very heavily.

Bob - I just grabbed a 2.5-10x42 in the MOAR reticle and really like it. Heavy and built like tanks, but extremely repeatable. If you want to have a yardage turret made for it, Gunwerks will do one for you too. That one for $1350 posted above is a great price (I paid $1450 for mine new on sale).

I'm a Swarovski slut but when I feel like spinning turrets on a rifle, I usually go to Nightforce as they are so repeatable and I'm not a fan of the fine Swaro BT duplex reticle - I swap them over to BRH reticles on my Z6's with turrets.

You could also probably get away with that Nightforce high velocity reticle on a 7 mag - kind of a cool holdover reticle.

Joe

By no means were any of my posts taking a Jab at ScenarShooter... IMO the 4-16 S&B that he referenced is probably one of the BEST S&B's made along with the 10x42 ... The M8541 that I referenced did have numerous problems originally and a large number of the original contract scopes had to be fixed including both Gen1 and Gen2 versions...

I have no idea who Formi is or do I care... I don't think his stance on S&B included the 4-16 Genera that Scenar and his SF buddy use ... If he has been around/used them he would be in the know that it is a stand up optic... I believe his problem with S&B scopes is the PRS Genera which has been problematic and does have issues... The scope that Scenars friend uses is more than likely a Unit purchased optic and not a contract optic...

As for me, well I'm just a half Breed taco eating mountain ape that shoots every now and then, so take what I say with a grain or three of salt...

100% correct with regards to S&B's and almost verbatim as to what was in my original post last night. It just isn't worth the effort to argue over. Pat seems like a stand up guy and I'm not getting in a penis measuring contest with anyone.

The 4-16x PMII's were unit purchases and almost always with H37 rets (at least that I have seen) and were very good scopes. Likewise the 1.1-4x Shortdot is and was a great scope, though has been eclipsed. S&B's problems started with 8541's whether that was thier fault or another's, and have continued with the PSR's. This isn't a secret in the sniping community where they are issued. The instructors at the committee that had a big hand in them getting selected don't even use them by and large, as they have issues holding zero. It's an issued optic and I see and use them regularly. They have problems.

Believe what you want, talk smack, it won't change it.









Thank you.

Esp from ones named Polesmoker.

Formi: what scope would you issue if it was up to you?

PS: when I shot on the Quantico Combat shoot two years ago, I got to spend a lot of time between stations with a Sergeant who was in the middle of an assignment as an Instructor at the Scout/Sniper School. I brought up the Schmidt and Benders that were being issued and he said that at first everyone was pretty star struck with them but once they started shooting with them they starting seeing problems with zero retention and adjustments.

He's returned every one I ever sent.

He likes queers.

so was/is the 4-16x50 made differently than the 3-12x50...?
seems like one of them has been great....
did materials/construction change?
the short dots performed well also... so it seems like we are lumping all into one?

No, but you appear to be trying to. No one said anything negative about any S&B scope except the USMC contract scopes.

I really like the MOAR reticle, that particular scope was my favorite scope but I could not get it to fit my long action due to the short mounting length.
I have been using the new bushnell LRHS and really like the scope but would like it more in MOA and second focal plane.

Good luck with the new scope, if it fits your rifle it will be a great addition.

8nbait: Thanks!

But can't you easily get past mounting issues on a LA with a picatinny rail?

here is some pertinent info on USMC sniper scopes regarding S&B and NF for that matter

http://www.sniperforums.com/forum/optics/10721-m8541-ssds-problems.html

I dont pretend to be a sniper on the internet or anywhere else, i cant imagine either brand not holding up for the average hunter/turret spinner...

i had a pre-zenith S&B 1.5-6x42 fall (about 6 feet) out of my hand climbing a ladder to get into a tree stand. The scope fell top side first and landed on the top of the scope (ocular bell actually), i picked it up and 2 hours later shot 2 deer at 200 yards so I guess that bump didnt cause it to lose its zero...i usually dont throw my equipment around and drag it through the mud and mount it to atv tires and drive it underwater, so Im hoping to avoid some of these "issues"


here is a comment from above thread and I still wonder how much Premier had to do with the faulty S&B's

"The M8541 is extremely durable and it is hardly a case of the lowest bidder. I've personally tested one by dropping it from 8+ feet onto a concrete and gravel mix, tossing it, submerging it in 3 feet of water for two hours, hammer tent stakes, and dragging it behind my Jeep for 25 yards. In the end there was only cosmetic damage to the optic with no damage to the internals that affected image quality or tracking. In fact I threw the same optic on a bolt gun, zeroed it, and shot a match with it, taking 5th place."

I'm waving a HUGE bullschidt flag. There is a reason that MSG's Lambert and Boucher specced the M24 with back-up irons. There is such a thing as a rugged, well-designed scope. There is no such thing as an indestructible scope.

did you read the thread or just that quote, the thread addresses the issues some of the first 2 gens of M8541 had

pics they refer to arent coming up on my ipad but apparently they were there at one time

http://www.sniperforums.com/forum/optics/9506-s-what-s-inside-counts.html

I did not read the thread I merely responded to the quote you posted.

No, it's just that I've never sent him one. PM's are gay.

FWIW I have a 4-16x50 PMII purchased from PR. It had to go to S&B in VA because it would not hold a zero. That was about 2 years ago but its been OK since then. If I have to ever send it back again it will get sent down the road.

GEEZ, looks like those military dickheads were correct. Who'da thunk it?

If you're an example of one, then no one.

If you must twist a knob.
http://www.eurooptic.com/schmidt-bender-10x42-pm-iI-riflescope.aspx
If you must twist a knob thats a variable.
http://www.eurooptic.com/schmidt-bender-pmii-4-16x42-l-p-p3-mildot-mrad-st-cw.aspx
Looking at it a bit differently.
I'd buy this thing.
http://www.eurooptic.com/schmidt-bender-classic-3-12x42-a9-rifle-scope-like-new-demo.aspx
I'd send it in and have the A9 reticle replaced with a TDS.
S&B still does install this reticle.
Learn how to use the TDS and kill stuff instead of spending the time clicken and dicken.

dave