To further clarify, how much could one expect to spend before getting a truly excellent air of binos. A pair that most people would agree fall into that "excellent" category. I see lots of people say one is good, or very nice or nice for the money or best value. Im simply curious as to what price point can one expect to buy a superb set of binos that will serve them for lifetime with no regrets.

I feel like the optic world is becoming a lot like the bow industry where things are starting to peak and we're seeing more marketing than substance with "improvements" to scopes/binos.


thoughts or comments? My old Leupy Cascades have served their purpose and Im looking to add a new pair of binos with the buy once cry one mentality.....but dont want to cry a lot

I have some kahles and cabelas/meopta ( non hd). I couldn't see myself wanting anything better than those.

Optics have improved so much over the last few years I'd say execllent starts at $500-$600

After that you get into HUGE diminishing returns i.e. 15% better costs 60% more, and so on...

Precisely want I want to avoid.

Looking at Vortex HD, Leica Trinovids both at 900.00. My reading has lead me to beleive the Trinovids are the better option.

This is same thing I've been researching for the past couple of months. I'm going to say from what I gathered it lands right around $1,000. And like you, I have pretty much settled on the Vortex Razor HD 10x42 or the Leica Trinovid 10x42. I'm just hoping I can get somewhere to look through them both and compare them side by side to make my final decision.

Yep, was reading the thread you started a while back. Im torn as Vortex has top notch CS where as it seems Leica has been spotty. It also seems as Leica may have the better glass. Being the same price doesnt help matters. Nobody around here has both. I may just order both and return one. Even if someone had both Id want a few days to evaluate in different conditions and lighting.

I'd buy some Tioga HD's and spend the rest on ammo.

When it comes to spotters and stuff I see the difference. But when it comes to rifle scopes and 8X (or below) binos I just feel you get to diminishing returns very fugking quickly.

The $400 stuff today is the $2K from 15 years ago.



Dave

Not a bad idea to just order both and use a few days and return one of them. The Vortex will have you for a few hundred bucks more. Also, I'm considering the older version of the Trinovid instead of the new ones ... if I can find them. Guys are complaining about the diopter adjustment on the newer version from what I'm gathering.

That part changes things a bit. If you want a lifetime bino then a company with a lifetime worth of continous production is a safer bet--Leupold, Swaro, Nikon..........Swaro and Nikon have always made excellent glass, sometimes Leupold does, sometimes not so much. Based on customer service Swaro or Leupold.

I've had my 7x30 and 8x30 SLCs for ~25 years, when I had them updated they were back to approaching current alpha stuff. So they have certainly been lifetime binos for me.

The other thing is so many of the asian stuff isn't really supported, those companies simply replace the binos that are under warranty--provided they have a regular warranty protocol.

Having said that, my Bushnell Custom 7x26's are 35 years old, going strong, and still very relevant for me--I use them often.

As ingwe said, we pay a lot for diminishing returns. But it's important to keep in mind we may be paying for future service of our binos from a longstanding company.

Casey

I agree Casey. Most of the stuff I buy today I end up spending more to get what is said to be the best in terms of quality as I hope to be able to pass down to one of the kids with something still usable and functional when the time comes. As pointed out before todays 5-600 optics were 2k not too long ago. Im just trying to minimize the devaluation. No sense in spending 2k today to pass down to my son in 10 years when the optics then may very well out perform for less than mine are worth. Guess its impossible to say. While Vortex has not been around for long, I see them sticking around. They are constantly improving their line and more importantly taking end user feedback into account.

I may just do that, and a few other if Im already paying the freight. I get a discount on the Vortex so they worked out to be the same.

Leica's warranty sucks, period. BTDT.

Vortex Viper HD's, Minox HG, Conquest HD's $600-$800.


All excellent. Compare carefully before you buy the new Trinovids. The older models were excellent. To my eyes (and several hunting buds) the newer Trinovids aren't as good as above.

David

This...pretty much....

Why is this the case?

Lifetime? I'd look at used swaros...

I imagine advances in technology have made it possible for multiple companies to offer superior optics driving the price down as a result.

Same as we see with rifles today. You used to have pay good money to get a sub moa rifle, now its pretty much the standard that a rifle shoot that well.

This.

My vote is with ingwe and deflave; at $400-500 I'm satisfied.

Everyone is different . I wasn't happy with a set of $400 retail binoculars for my purpose (looking for game in low light).

A few years ago, I bought a set of Zen-Ray ED3 binos which rivaled my older Swarovski SLC. It is my opinion that by spending slightly more your gain is in build quality rather than optical performance.

Do you have to spend $2600 or more to get both? Absolutely not. I think the sweet-spot is right around $800-$1000.

If you don't wear glasses and want something really good for the money. The Cabela's euro models made by Meopta are really good, however I am snobbish and like seeing Swarovski, Leica, or Zeiss when I grab my binoculars. Just me though. Really nice binoculars are something to be proud of

Just some food for thought-

Between the two mentioned, if you're absolutely sure you're keeping them "forever" then I might consider the Razor. If not, I'd go with the Leica. (Personally, I'd go with the new/old Trinovid anyway but I digress)

If you keep an eye on what sells and what doesn't, you'll take a much bigger hit in selling a used Vortex than Leica.
And IMO, you'll need the Vortex CS before you'll need it from Leica.

I've dealt with Leica CS on two occasions and they were fabulous.

Im a closet snob. I feel if Im paying that much for binos id like the name to go with it. If anything to hold its value better than some others.

I hear what you're saying. The Trinovids are what Im considering. For me, I think they will have to be noticeably better optically for me to choose them over the the Vortex, assuming both fit my hands and face equally well.

handwerk bought two of the new/old Trinovids for his sons so I got to spend a little time with the Trinovid.
And, they're fantastic. Had I not looked, I would have sworn I was handling my Ultravid.

Excellent point, when factoring Id like to keep these for a spell, the build quality is probably more relevant than glass quality, especially by todays stanrds where the best glass today may only be the best for a few years where as build quality in most cases seems to go the other way. The old "not built like they used to be" saying.

You have to spend $1500 or more to get something better than the Tract Toric. Even then it's not much.

I hadnt even heard of them until reading a few posts here. While I get their business concept allows them to sell quality optics for less, I dont think Im ready to spend my money with such a new company. I personally didnt even consider Vortex products until a few years ago, and thats just because they have taken a strong foothold in a short amount of time. Perhaps foolish and wasteful to think this way but you know what they say about old dogs.

There are sooo many better options than Vortex....

I agree

If I was given the choice of a top dollar binocular or scope, but not both, I'd spend the $$ on the binocular, every day of the week and twice on Sunday.Far more time is spent glassing than is aiming. I like a nice scope as much as the next person, but top quality binoculars are worth every cent.

Perhaps. Better is largely subjective and ive learned over the years that questions similar to this largely involve people replying with the bran they have had experience with rather than people who have used lots of them. Not directing that towards you or anyone else specifically, mainly just t point out that i take everything with a a grain of salt and use the opinions and experiences learned here as a starting point as to which optics to consider at which time I'll get a sample of each before making my own decision. Vortex seems to come up a lot and their higher end scopes are pretty damn good so why not give them a chance.

Amen to that. Hence why im here. When my scope is performing better than my binos, its time for an upgrade

I agree and take a similar approach.

I traded into a pair of Minox HGs. I like.

Forget Vortex I've had 2 scopes and 2 bino's they all broke small fall broke bridge on kaibab 15x56 , Bumping around in back pack nocked collumation off on 10x42 viper hds. Both viper scopes would not hold zero. They are great glass for the money but terrible build quality. All 4 were fixed and sold. Only owned 1 leica 10x42 geovids never had a problem sold them to a friend and laser went bad. It cost him 500.00 to get it fixed. Swarovski is the best build and glass and all I own other than a bunch of leupold scopes. One of my brothers does have the cabelas euro and they are as good as my slc's just a little bulkier and heavier. Minox german made binoc's would be one to look at to.

Agreed. There is always something better for equal or less money.

Same reason VCR's don't cost $400.



Dave

Doug and his crew, here on the 24HCF, are very helpful and often have special deals that are really good. You could give them a call with that question.

IF you know what you're looking for, know the product, sometimes a deal can be found on E-Bay. I'd stick with those brands that have stellar CS, avoid the others. As always with used stuff, buyer beware...

I picked up used Kahles 8x45's some years back for a good price and have been very pleased. Not sure about current Kahles CS, back then it was pretty good, Swaro was their CS agent. My binocs never went back, I did have a Kahles rifle scope that required CS. Swaro did a good job.

DF

If you buy a good pair of binoculars that isn't made by Swarovski, Leica, or Zeiss, maybe Kahles, and maybe some models of Leupold resale is not as good. You can always get a pretty decent price for the big three used, and a not too bad price for the others I mentioned. I am not sure that a pair of Vortex Razors or Vipers will bring anywhere near what they cost after use. You might get lucky but odds are you won't get the same percentage a pair from the others brings.

If you keep them forever then it doesn't matter what you buy as long as you like them. I want a pair of Minox but haven't decided if they are a pair I would keep for a long time.

I cant speak to the Kaibabs but the Vipers arent a great scope to begin with and I wouldn't expect much out of them. Im not sure if there are build differences between the varying levels of Vortex optics or if its just glass but Ive seen some PRS shooters beat their Vortex Razors day in and day out they just keep trucking along.I cant think of anyone else who is harder on their optics than those guys.

Thanks for the reply, doesnt matter how great a warranty is if they fail you when it matter most. Ive never broken any of my optics from Nikon, Leupold, Burris, Bushnell, Zeiss....even my Sig rangefinder is working. Hence why Im willing to give everyone a shot.

I agree with that and typically shop for clean one owners to get them at a cant lose price should I decide to sell down the road.

What part of a binocular changes so fast technologically? The glass, the coatings?

I think it's all of the above, engineering, glass, coatings and don't forget China...

And the Philippines...

And whereever...

Remember when early Jap cars were considered to be junk?

Now, who makes some of the finest cars in the world...?

The longer they make'em, the better they get.

DF

I think the cost associated with getting glass to such a high level has come down significantly. So much so its probably more beneficial to judge optics on build quality given that so many companies are now producing comparable quality glass in their top offerings.

I don't have experience with the razor line but everything under that price point isn't built well so I would not consider them excellent. Leica yes excellent.

I think between $500 and $1000 you can get great glass that will work well for all types of hunting.
But, like rifles you can spend a little more and perhaps enjoy that last little bit of quality that brings it to the ("excellent") level. For me I chose to cut back in other parts of life so I can enjoy the excellent binos that are the Swaro EL SV's.

The advent of computerized tooling (especially with the manufacture of glass and shaping the lens) has been a big part of creating mid priced optics that are close to the alphas. There is also the huge subsidies the asian manufacturers in building the facilities.

Secondly the HD/ED lens have seemed to help the midprice binos more than the alpha binos that were already at a level that any improvements were in small increments.

Casey

Have the new/old Trinovids and love them.

Have had the 8X32 Trinovids for 20+ years and haven't had any trouble with them.

They are built like a tank.

Also, don't discount ergo's. Some are equal in glass but don't have the ergo's to make a long term optic. I like to do a side by side comparison in dawn/dusk hunting conditions. Easy to do with some suppliers. Let your eyes tell you what's worth more. As you get older, there's less difference.

I left ergos and build quality off my earlier list.

I agree with you and warpig on those two additional points.

Housing material and how robust they're made are big issues over time.

As it gets easier to make better glass, the mechanical parts/build quality may become more of a differentiating factor than nice, clear glass.

DF

To answer the question of the original poster.

What price do binos become excellent?

All things considered, brightness,build quality,mechanics etc.

Around $1200 on up. Pick up a used Zeiss FL or Leica Ultravid HD for example or look for a deal on a current Swarovski SLC for a little bit more. There is not much more improvement that is capable in today's top glass so it is safe to consider a current one a lifetime investment.

As good as the mid priced offerings are they still can not hang optically or mechanically with the top glass, period. There are a few offerings that are close (Maven B2 as an example) but they simply will not hold their value as well, the company might not still be around in 5 years and their price is close enough to the top brands that it is simply not a wise choice IMO.

There is more to the top glass than just comparisons on paper indicates and it will be seen over time during usage in the field.

Love my Meopta 10x42 HD. Worth every cent.

This is fun to read, but not a lot of useful information..

First off, read up on how to evaluate glass. It will make deciphering the difference between binoculars and spotters much easier.

The metrics I use to evaluate binoculars are:

1. Edge to edge clarity (this is huge, eye fatigue, useable FOV, etc)

2. Detail at distance (in a hunting store, look at the detail in the nose and eyes of a mount for example)

3. Color rendition

4. Flip the glass over and look though it backwards at a sheet of white paper. You'll quickly see any tint on the image (Vortex has a green tint) as well as any imperfections in the glass.

As for the 4-500.00 glass being there.. Its not even close onces its properly evaluated. I haven't looked though the tracts so no comment on them, but almost every other piece of imported SE asian schitt from Bushy, Leupold, nikon, vortex, I have. The two that stand out IMHO are the monarch 7 and the vipers (very similar piece of optics) at this price point, they are all branded optics and not made by the branding company.

The thing with those, is the glass quality is crap, and they use coatings to make up for it (not thinly applied either). The coatings degrade over time when they are applied to thickly. Look at a 3 or 4 year old pair of nikons vs new, the image is degraded to say the least.

Once you get into the 1K plus range, optically the meoptas meostars are are one of the best value optics. They absolutely blow the doors off the Razors (which have schitt useable FOV due to bad edge distortion) The conquests are meh, and the new trinovids are pretty decent. My only issue with the meoptas is that they have the ergonomics of a ham sandwich filled with tire weights. But they do have German Schott Glass, which is shared in common with all of the alphas.

From there you get into the truly excellent glass, Victory HT's, SLD HDs, EL's, Ultravids, etc.

IMHO the rankings for the aplhas I have reviewed is as follows

1. EL Swarovision (I personally run 12x50s)

2. Victory HT's

3. Ultravids

4. SLC HD's

I'd highly recommend buying used alpha glass in lieu of new. You'll get way more value for your money. If you can find the previous generation SLC HD's, those are a great value in the used market.

In the spirit of not starting a pissing match, I'll just say that there's lots to disagree with there WRO, IMO of course.

I always enjoy a good pissing match. Throw in some gems of wisdom from Jeff 0, Boxer, and Wrongman then things get interesting.

I believe that you get above Vortex Viper HD binoculars in optical performace that you have very good binoculars. An easy test is to take your good binoculars and shine a very bright flashlight into the objective lens with the binocular eyepiece backed by white paper. You will find good ones and bad ones but they look very nice and are hard to differentiate unless you check this. All brands have some irregularities at this level. You choose the one with the least number of problems at this level.

To get where you just want to use them and use them and use them and consider them excellent I would go straight Alpha. The four binoculars listed below never have optical irregularities or if they do you have the salesman send them back to manufacturer. There are presently four companies with flag ship alphas and they all cost north of $2000 strong US dollar right now.
Right now. Its Leica.
1)The Leica Noctivid 10X42s are the best binoculars out there.
2)I personally like the Swaro Travel Pro EL 10X42 SVs as second.
3)The Nikon 10X42 EDG HD as third.
4)the Zeiss 10X42 SF as fourth.

I sorta lean toward Kaboku on this.


I really have never been able to afford to buy and try out a bunch of lower priced (but still very expensive) optics to find out how they compare to the alpha's.

I have owned a lot of tier 2 binos - vortex, zen ray, theron, burris, leupold, ect....

And for the last 3 years I have owned Leica Geovid HD 10X42's and after having these I don't know why I waited so long. Optically they are a huge step up and as long as I can afford it will never own another binoclar that isn't a leica.

$350 will get you a set of Nikon Monarch 7 8X30's. About as cheap as I have seen binos that have pop. I carry them in the truck and use the hell out of mine. If they were to get stolen, I would replace with the same thing ASAP.

Coatings and glass.





Dave

I've looked through 4 different Monarch 7 binos, in both 30mm and 42mm and am impressed. The only fly in the ointment is Nikons spotty warranty service. Although I think in that price range Nikon and most other companies don't really want to support those optics too much.

Casey

I've never looked through the EDG's or noctovids (haven't seen them to get my hands on yet) But the SF's were one of the biggest disappointments to me. A lot of pin cushioning on the edges and the image seemed like it was muted compared to the EL's, HT's and SLC HD's. They honestly reminded me of poorly done knock off EL.

Nobody is mentioning Nikon EDG's--which are often being ranked as the best in some of the optics looney forums. Maybe it's because nobody can afford to look through them.........

I have come to appreciate warranty and CS service--Swaro wins that going away. Plus last I knew Swaro is the only one of the alpha's that have a full blown repair facility here in the USA.

Also, the current trend is nobody can see an elk standing a 100 yds away unless they are carrying 42mm (or bigger) binos. But I am seeing some folks after packing those largish 30 oz optics around their neck for a couple years are now looking for lighter binos.

What model of bino is best in one magnification and/or objective lens size often doesn't mean it's the best in another size.

For those of us who grunt around at 10k in altitude, smaller and lighter equipment is an important factor.

In that light, the best of the 30-32mm binos I've looked through are the Ultravids, but there is that warranty and CS issue.

For me, Swaro 32mm EL's win on optical quality, build, and warranty service.


Casey

I ordered some of those from a local mom & pop store. When they arrived I opened the package and handed them to the proprietor. He looked for a few seconds and said, "I wish I hadn't looked though them. They are way better than what I have."

Yup, they perform way above their price tag. I have owned binos that cost 3X as much but did not deliver a better view or handle any better and weighed about 1/3 more.

I think they have the 'No Fault Warranty'. I have never had an issue so I don't know how good the CS is.

Everyone's opinion will differ on the top glass.

I prefer the standard "classic" view with a little pincushion distortion left at the edges of the FOV to prevent the globe effect or rolling ball effect. (no Swarovski Swarovision or Zeiss SF for me please).

Give me a Zeiss HT or Swarovski SLC

I have not looked through or compared a Leica Noctovid to the HT or SLC but it would be hard pressed to outperform the HT in low light. The current SLC (in particular the 10x42) is a best buy and outperforms any rendition of the Leica Ultravid series IMO

The Nikon EDG series fall short compared to the current Zeiss,Leica and Swarovski offerings in light transmission-otherwise a great bino all other aspects considered.

Tb,

The current Swaros don't have much or any RB--apparently Swaro caught enough flak they changed the field flattner coatings in recent times.

This spring I had my MK I 8x30 SLC's updated to "MK IV or better" specs. The last year or so of the MK IV 8x30 Neu's had terrible RB, but mine have none that I can detect. I voiced my concern to Swaro when I had the binos updated, and they assured me it was unlikely I would see any RB. Without saying it, the CS gal tacitly admitted Swaro had addressed the problem.

Casey

I have to agree with JG and that is nearly a first... ;O

Your understanding of coatings is a bit suspect, also...

You bastid!

Same here.

I like mine too. They were what I could afford. If I get another pair I'm going to try the Tract Toric.

I have the same Meopta and it really is outstanding, on par with my SLC HD. The Toric is as well. You'll love it.

Excellent binoculars, to me, include optical quality (obviously), build quality, ergonomics (subjective), lifetime transferrable warranty. You can find all of that starting around $600 (Toric), but primarily around $1000 (Meopta, Razor, Conquest HD, Maven).

If optical quality is all you care about, a Vanguard Endeavor ED, a Zen Ray Prime, Nikon Monarch7, Vortex Viper HD, or a Pentax ED are all excellent.

According to my 56 yr old eyes, the Swaro 10x50SV is the finest binocular on the planet.

See we can agree on something as well.

There isn't any better optically IMHO.

Agree WRO. Amazing piece of equipment.