I've got mostly Kahles CL 3-9x42 scopes on my hunting rifles. I bought them when CDNN was selling them for cheap 12 years ago. I've also got a Zeiss Conquest VA 4-16x44. These are all very good scopes which have performed very well. I've also got various Leupolds and Burris', which mostly function just fine, but no longer meet my needs.

My rifles are Kimber Montana in 25-06; Winchester M70 in 264 WinMag; Montana Rifle Co X3 in 26 Nosler; and Kimber Montana in 300WSM.

I hunt elk and mule deer in the Rocky Mountains, Pronghorns on the open plains, and whitetails in the river bottoms.

Currently, I would never shoot over 400 yards. My longest shot to date was 300 yards on a Pronghorn with my 25-06. I am just starting to "dial", and so would eventually be willing to go to something around 600 yards in ideal conditions.

I like a simple reticle. So far, I am happy with a German 4A. And, for my use, I am preferring a second focal plane reticle. A 4x zoom range is plenty. I don't want an illuminated reticle.

The Kahles, while super good, don't have dialing capability. Thus, if I want to start dialing, the Kahles are a no go. Also, I'd like to get higher power than 9x.

I like the excellent optics and zoom range of the Zeiss 4-16x44, and it is dial-able. But the ocular bell is very large, which means the scope is mounted relatively high so the ocular will clear the ring base. Since I have no choice but to mount the scope high, I might as well get a larger objective, say something the 50mm-ish range. Zeiss doesn't make a V4 4-16 with a 50mm objective.

And, because the Kimber Montanas are slim trim rifles, I'd like the scope for those guns to be 1" tubes. A 30mm tube on the bigger M70 and X3 looks good.

I'd like to keep the price under $1000.

Tactical scopes are cool technology, but I am a hunter and so want a hunting-oriented scope. In other words, I want something that is relatively simple and straight forward, and don't want heavy and bulky.

I know the above are a lot of details. I know I may have to compromise on some of them. And, perhaps there is some room for "personal growth" on some of the parameters. But, what is close to what I've described, above?

TIA

Not a 4X16, rather a 3X15 the price is under 800 and you won’t find a better scope fir 2000


https://www.tractoptics.com/products/riflescopes

There are excellent quality options from Meopta and Swarovski. Please give me a call to discuss what would be the best fit for you.
We are bringing in some Meopta Artemis 2000 1.5-6x42's that are fantastic scopes which might be a perfect choice for you

3-15 SWFA would be perfect for you and is well
Under 1k.

Thanks for the recommendations, and, Doug, for the offer of help.





An $800 scope as good as $2000 scopes is a strong statement. Can you share any additional details to help me understand the basis for this endorsement?

I advise you to slow down and spend a little more time learning about shooting long range before you buy something. I have no first hand experience w/ the Zeiss but if you believe it to be a reliable dialing scope why don't you spend some time shooting and figuring out what you are doing first?

I can assure you 6mm of objective diameter is completly inconsequential in chasing your stated goals.

Figure out your trajectory, plot yourself some dope w/ wind calls and go to the range, it will be a much more productive use of your time and money.

David

Canazes9 - Good advice to slow down! And, I know gaining experience before making a major purchase is always a good thing. But, that leaves me with just one dialable scope to spread between 4 rifles. Not sure if I have that much patience. :-)

I guess I could set all the guns up with the appropriate 30mm rings, and move the Zeiss scope between the guns. I'd have to re-zero it each time, though. Interesting thought . . . .

I own a Tract 3X15 X50 Toric, I also own several S&B scopes some costing over 3000 dollars each and the glass in the Toric is Scott HD, the resolution and definition is comparable. Tract sells direct to the customer and cuts out a sizable middle man markup. They are an exceptional value in my opinion and experience.


I also have top end Zeis, US Optics and Meopta. The Tract Toric is a lot of scope at twice it’s price point.

I don't think there are any dialing scopes with 1" tubes. I do own a Swaro Z5 with a turret. It's a 1" tube that I have used to dial with ,but I wouldn't consider it a "dialing" scope.

I would listen closely to Canazes9- David's advice above. If you really have to have a new scope to play with dialing,then get a SWFA SS 6X fixed mill-mill quad,and start learning how to dial. It is only about $300,and will dial with the best high $$$$$ scopes on the market. Then you will have a lot better idea of your needs for later.

One example is your Kimber rifle thoughts. I don't disagree in wanting to stay 1" tube,but you also should know that a Kimber Montana isn't really a 600 yard gun. That doesn't mean that it couldn't take game at that far or farther under the right conditions,and in the right hands. It just means that if I wanted to shoot long range,a Montana with a 1" tube scope wouldn't be my first choice. Point being,everything is a trade off in some way and compromise is inevitable,in some area. I would rather trade a little weight and aesthetics, on a Montana and set it up with a good dialing scope and good mounts,if long shots were a good possibility.

1st, you probably won't want all of your rifles set up to dial. You've spent your entire hunting career without doing this, you don't need to convert everything in one season. You need to work on getting one rifle set up properly and getting some significant trigger time. Worry about the rest later.

2nd, your dislike for reticles other than the traditional duplex has got you prejudiced against a good mil/moa reticle before you even start. Go try and make some wind calls w/ your duplex and see if your opinion changes (it might not, but you don't know yet).

If you are bound and determined to spend some money on a scope, buy a SWFA SS 10x mil/mil for $300. Mount it on a rifle and compare shooting at range w/ your Zeiss. That will give you a MUCH better idea what you really want/need. The optics on the SWFA probably aren't what u want, but it will track/hold zero/RTZ and you can experience a mil reticle witha scope that will track accurately. If you decide you have no use for the SWFA after shooting for a while you should be able to unload it for no more than $100 loss, a cheap education.

David

David,the only reason I suggested the 6x over the 10X is that I figured that if he could see that he could hit stuff without the higher magnification,then the 6X would be a better hunting scope. I do think the 10X would make a better target scope,if only learning longer range shooting.

Just my thoughts for the OP.

RHC,

We were typing at the same time...

I agree, but didn't think he would accept a reccomendation for 6x when he's already looking for more magnification...

David

I don’t get this 6 power mantra, I have my variables set on 8 to 10 power way more than any other. If I need Less or more I have it at my finger tips.

shinbone

Some good information:

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/12448509/1

David

Everyone - Thanks for the very good suggestions. I can see I have more studying to do before making any decisions.

Starting with something less expensive to gain more experience with dialing and reticle designs does make sense.

jwp,

That’s a strong statement, and I suppose we’d need to define “better”. I’m neither anti-Tract, nor a Tract fanboy, so I approach the brand more inquisitively than anything. In my opinion “better” means mechanical function and reliability first and foremost, with optical performance rating somewhere in the Top 5 of important attributes. I think it has been established here on 24HCF that the Toric has superb glass for the price. What remains a question mark in my mind is the mechanical function, robustness, and durability of the scope. Buying one and testing it thoroughly would help, but still would only speak to (1) sample of one model of Toric. I’m not even sure if they ship to Canada I know of a couple guys on here that have a sizeable round count, hard use, and a lot of dialing on their Toric, but again, the sample size of those reports remains too small to make any generalized determination about the scope lineup.

How much dialing, carrying time/rough use, and what approximate round count do you have on your scope? What rifle is it mounted on? Thanks for the additional info.

I'd toss a 3-12 LRHS on it and go kill chit. As far as you'll want to try.... I bang steel to 1000 regularly with a 260 Montana, so the comment of them only being a 600 yard gun is total bullshit.







Heck, there was one sold here just a couple days ago on the classifieds for under $800.....

+1

Learn what works for your intended use before investing in what you think will work, and then having to buy/sell after you’ve got some learning and experience under your belt.

If a guy had to invest some money into a LR-capable hunting scope without really knowing what he’s looking for, that’d be the one. It’s got it all. Some may not prefer the reticle, and the weight may be a little much, but for the intended application it’s the best compromise out there, IMO.

Having said that, my Montana 84M is a sheep rifle first, and LR-capable second, so weight matters and it wears a SS 3-9x at about 5-6 oz less weight. My 8400 is more general use, so it got a LRHS 3-12x.

Lots of feelings being tossed around in this thread . I wont argue with huntsman and jordan about the bushnell lrhs, im running 2 of them and they have been great killing scopes. As far as other recomendations based on glass.....Schott glass doesnt always impress me....even my coffee pot has schott glass.



http://imgur.com/uZJo0jq

Just got notice of and did a post for a ER 5 3-15x56 - Magnum Ballistic #51075 reduced to only $799.99

Shinbone,

Thanks for posting a picture of the Zeiss V4 mounted on your rifle, you probably saved me money since I planned on using that same scope on a M70 300 Win mag and I don't like having a scope bell that far up from the barrel. I have a Kimber montana 270WSM and I guess I put a NF SHV 3-10x42 on it .

Oldelkhunter - That big of a gap between the objective and the barrel does look a little ridiculous.

Also, not to hijack my own thread, but . . . I've been lusting after a Kimber Montana in 270WSM. How are you liking yours?

I will have owned it for 2 weeks this saturday. It appears to be very well made, if it was shot before it was sparingly. I have to scope it and take it to the range to see what I purchased.

Love my Z5 with the BRH. Give reticles a bit more thought.

Good stuff man! That is sig line worthy.

To the OP - those kahles cl’s are outstanding scopes. Please pm me if you decide you want to sell or trade them.

The Kahles CL scopes are indeed outstanding. When I bought them a dozen years ago at half price, I told myself these scopes would last the rest of my life. I knew about laser rangefinders and dialable scopes, but never thought that stuff would appeal to me. People change, including old ossified dudes, like me, I guess.

I will be hanging onto the Kahles scopes for the foreseeable future. I know Kahles offers more features, nowadays, but no way could I afford the more modern Kahles scopes.

Please keep us updated on how she shoots. When they shoot good, it is hard to beat a Kimber Montana.

Everything that I’ve experienced with my 3X15X50 Toric has been positive. I bought mine in 2018 mounted it and zeroed it in. Adjustments were precise and accurate and the glass is abosolutely outstanding. I have seen nothing to negative about the scope. No I don’t have an endurance test to prove it but I’d not hesitate to buy another one. It worked perfectly for me this hunting season.

The V4 doesn’t have to be mounted that high!

That's true and a good point, but . . . I am a big guy with a long neck. I mount the scope farther forward than what is shown in this photo to keep it out of my eyebrow, necessitating the higher mount so the ocular will clear the scope base.

oh ok, that explains it .

Thanks for that pic, what height talleys?

Lows on a 84M

Nightforce SHV c584 . That’s too easy....

NightForce SHV 4-14x56 ForcePlex reticle LNIB for $835 shipped in the classifieds. I couldn’t resist. 😎

Just a little? How about way ridiculous. There's absolutely no need to mount that scope that damn high. I don't care who you are, unless you like a chin weld on the stock or shooting from the hip. I'd pull that one piece picatinny off and throw a set of Talley lightweights on that EW. Do that rifle some justice man. The lows would work so much better and save you some weight in the process too.. Just sayin..

What’s a chin weld? Is that a shot at people who have chinitus?

Double chin or turkey neck will get you there...😎

Thank You . Perfect fit better then I expected with that scope and rifle combo.

I really like my 6x, but I do not believe that he would be disappointed with the 10x. It has better long-range capabilities and has served me well at pretty close range. Either is fantastic, but 10x is not too much for hunting. I have two on rifles, with one sitting in the box and I am trying to decide if I want to change it out and sell the 6. No bad choice there. Then, there is my Athlon MIdas Tac. I dialed it up this afternoon and smucked a late-season doe antelope at 400.

Leupold VX-5 3-15. I had nearly the same requirement as the OP and after reading, shopping and looking - the Leupold came home with me. I bought the Firedot Duplex ZL-2 model. I can dial or just zero 2" high at 200 yards and be pretty comfortable in the areas and for the game I hunt each fall.

The suggestions to "slow down" and to start with a "starter" scope are good and makes sense. But, if I buy a well recognized high quality scope and end up not liking it, I can resell it for an acceptable loss in light of gaining some good experience. Obviously, that is just a personal preference issue.

Based on the input from this thread and doing some more research, I am now leaning towards a Zeiss V6 3-18x50 with the ZMOA-2 reticle. And, this would go on a Montana Rilfe Co X3 in 26 Nosler. The V6 exceeds my original budget, but I found a good deal on a new one, which is always attractive.

Since the V6 3-18x50 does look good to me for my application, what other scopes are comparable in performance, features, and price, and warrant me taking a hard look at before committing to the Zeiss?

I actually just picked up a mint used zeiss V6 3-18x50 zmoa-2 for $1200. I decided to go that route being is gives me plenty of low end for my property in hardwoods, but the 18x allows me to really make precise shots at distances. The other thing that surprised me was the low light capability of the Zeiss when compared to my Schmidt Bender 2.5-10x56. I still give the edge to the SB, but here in Louisiana, we have legal shooting times and the Zeiss gets me way past legal times. If only they would offer an illuminated reticle like the SB, then I could have the best of both.

have tried the zeiss conquest v4 dupont? they can be had in an illum ret. i bought a 3-12x56 #60 illum ret but haven't had the time to get it outside at dusk to see how it compares to my eyes to my meopta meostar scopes.
Big Ed

No I sure haven't. But I did however hear that the V4 and the V6 are made at different facilities. Not sure how true that is.

Ive worked a 3-15 Tract Toric pretty hard and bashed it hard too and its performed really well. Have bought another so that's an endorsement. I think that the "Schott glass factor" is overstated though. It would take a good and experience eye to see the difference between good ED and Schott glass in hunting conditions. I will take it because its there, but its got a lot hype around it. Tract are a class act for the money though.

Thanks for the recommendation. The Tract scopes do indeed look good. The Toric UHD 4-20x50, which is the model that correlates to the Zeiss V6 3-18x50, is a FFP reticle, where I am wanting the SFP reticle of the Zeiss.

Thanks, again!

Some of you guys are telling him to slow down and practice long range shooting first, how do you want him to do that with his
current scopes when he could buy one worth using at long range.
Might as well recommend something decent for him to use, such as an Swfa, tract toric, Nikon black x1000/fx1000.
I would say try the Nikon black series as a low cost good quality scope to start long range shooting and hunting.

you are correct there that the v6 is germany and the v4 are japan made. but, the v6 don't have a illuminated hunting ret in my opinion. guess i comes down to what you want to do with the optic.
good luck,
Big Ed

Correct, thats what i read. thanks for sharing that. I know that with the current V6 3-18x50 that I just recently picked up, I can see the cross hairs at my hunting locations at first and last legal light fine. This rifle was not meant to be a "night time" hunter, but rather a combo that could have various range and locations. The 3x allows for those close range shots.

ok then good deal. i've yet to mount my zeiss conquest v4 3-12x56 with #60 illum ret on my tikka 260 rem but its my fav whitetail rig and thats all i do with it.
Big Ed