I'm entering new territory for me, so I figured I would shake the bushes to learn of some real world experiences before I head down the rabbit hole.

Rifle: Martini cadet, .357 Magnum, 26" barrel

My goal is to employ it for (relatively) close range deer in "straight wall cartridge" districts. Out of all my molds I have but one .357 158 SWC design for gas checks. I can comfortably reach 1500fps no sweat, and push it to 1600-1650 in a pinch. It performs best with 4227 and H-110.

My question(s): Is it a reasonable scenario for under 100 yard deer killing? Would I be better off acquiring a 170 gas check SWC mold, and sacrificing a little velocity? (I'm leaning in that direction.) I'm contemplating an alloy of clip-on wheelweights+tin, or 1-10 or 1-20 tin-lead.

Anybody feed a .357 rifle with Li'l Gun powder?

After seeing how a 158 will penetrate out of a 6.5” revolver at 1000fps I cannot imagine you gaining much by going to a 170swc. I think you’ll see plenty of penetration for deer with either.

I might even be inclined to try some out of my 358156HP mold since you might have enough speed for some fairly violent expansion.

I know when I had a 44 magnum rifle as well as some testing with and old Cramer HP mold for my 45/70 that a HP cast of WW/Tin would behave in a Nosler partition fashion. Rapid violent expansion, then the nose shears off leaving the base to penetrate and exit.

I would have no hesitation using that combo on deer at that range or even a little beyond. I know it's apples to oranges but took a 75 lb doe with a 125 gr hp
from a 6 in revolver. 1 shot DRT at about 30 yds through the neck. Wouldn't be surprised if you got a pass through if broad side without hitting heavy bone.

I shoot a Rossi 92 carbine with 158 gr jacketed using 16.5 gr of Lil gun. for me it's been a good combo in my rifle.

Have you considered a bullet design with a wider meplat?

Something else to consider if you're using compressed loads: Seat a reversed gas check on top of the powder and seat the bullet on top of that.

Still a novice caster here but I have read that "short nosed" bullets lose some of their accuracy after 50 yards and that "long nosed" bullets perform better at 50 yard and beyond ranges. So if you were leaning towards the 170 grains, consider mathman's question regarding bullet design.

Hmmm. Totally necessary with a gas checked bullet? I've done that trick with plain based bullets a couple times though.

Yeah, if I have a 170 grain mold cut it'll definitely employ a wider meplat for maximum splat. Perhaps even make it a three cavity mold and have one of the cavities hollow pointed. Accurate mold's # 36-168J or 36-168SG is mighty tempting.

I meant with plain based bullets. You said you only had one SWC design for gas checks in your inventory, so I thought maybe you had others in plain base.

Look at the meplats on the 36-165V and 36-170DL.

165NG is tempting too. Still leaning towards a gas check, at these velocities a plain base is at the edge of creating leading issues, especially with a relatively soft alloy to guarantee expansion.

That's why I thought of the reversed gas check trick.

I missed that one when I looked earlier. Looks like just the ticket.

Do you really think this is relevant when the stated use is 100 yds or less?

Gary, been following your musings on this interesting rifle. My thoughts would be to go even as much as 180gr with this single shot and forget the gas check and powder coat. Much more flexible with soft alloys. I have such a mold of a RNFP. While it is not real smooth thru my Rossi 92 and Timber wolf pump it would be wonderful in your Martini. Just my thoughts.

Hmmm. That's another interesting approach. The rabbit hole is getting deeper!

I ordered the 165NG mold. Could take a few weeks or a few months, pretty unpredictable depending on whether Tom is backed up or not.

I can't believe I never explored cartridges like this in a rifle. I guess, try as we might, we simply can't do everything!

Gary,
I sent you a PM

Mickey

I've loaded 180gr FP bullets for my 357 mag rifle. They drop considerably at 100yds so you better know your drop table.


I like the 158gr SWC HP, it works great at distance and has enough at 100yds to get the job done.

Personally I wouldn't shoot past 100yds, but anything closer, you should get your knife ready.

Lil Gun works good but don't shoot long strings, like more than 5 shots as the barrel gets REALLY hot, as a result I've sort of steered clear of Lilgun for plinking and general shooting. I save it for my hunting loads, yes it gets a bit more velocity and that is why.

Years ago I had a great load with Lil Gun and a 180gr XTP, or Nosler partition. I killed one fat doe with the 180gr xtp load in a Marlin 1894. The .357mag is a great round for hunting inside 100 yds

My son shoots a 357 Maximum rifle with a 16" barrel. His hunting load is a 220gr LHP cast 20:1 (pure lead & tin) and 9.5 gr of Viht Tin Star for 1120fps. The bullet retains better than 90% of it's weight in wet newspaper and penetrates deer completely when shots are limited to behind the shoulder shots to the boiler room.

A 158gr SWC at 1500fps will do the same or even better due to the higher speed. I bet it would even break a shoulder with ease.

When we hunt deer with soft, expanding cast bullets we shoot for ribs. Harder, SWC bullets get shot into the shoulders to break them down mechanically.

Ain't never shot a .357 from a rifle, but the most fun I ever had with a pistol cartridge in a rifle was the .44 mag. Short version: Shot for crap with J-bullets. Was adequate for a Palma match with 300 gr. paper patch. Killed stuff where it stood, end of story. L'il Gun and a card wad did the trick with pure lead bullets.

Thanks for all the advice. Experimentation continues.

Family has killed untold hogs with the 158 gr bullet out of an old 1980's Rossi... a few deer too. At short ranges it is a fantastic round.

I shot many plain base rounds in a Martini Cadet using commercially cast 8mm bullets. They originally weighed 170 grains but I faced the bases off in a lathe and they weighed 128 grains as shot. Afterwards there was only one lube groove remaining on the bullets so I lubed them by using a small paint brush to apply liquid alox on the portion of the bullet outside of the case. I shot them at 1650 to 1700 fps.

I'd shoot a couple hundred of those at one sitting and never had any problems with leading.

I've also shot thousands of quench cast straight WW alloy gas checked bullets through a 10" Thompson Center Contender at 1550 to 1750 fps (.357 Maximum) with no leading.

Whether a barrel leads up depends on a lot of things. How smooth the bore of the firearm is has a lot to do with it.

I have used Li’l Gun in my 357 carbine (20” barrel) and it performs really well.

15.0 gr behind a 180gr WFN cast pill produced 1830fps which is humming for a 357.

In a Martini Cadet you might want to work up to that as the actions aren’t renowned for their strength or extraction. If your firing pin hasn’t been bushed you might want to stick with small rifle primers.

Also being a single shot, check the throating as you might be able to load your shells longer than in a levergun.

My deer load for my Marlin 1894 is a powder coated Lee 158 SWC GC over a near-max load of H110. Some might use it out to 100 yards. I have not taken a deer with it, but I'd be more inclined to keep it inside of 50 yards.

While I haven't used it on a whitetail, I carry this load when I'm patrolling the property for feral dogs. It does an awesome job on them.

Just starting into .357 rifles myself with a Henry SS. My standard revolver load is 18.0 of LG (or as close as my Little Dandy gets) with 158gr XTP HPs. The flatnosed version is preferred for large game at the speeds possible with that but so far haven’t grouped as well for reasons unknown and neither has 158gr Laser cast over a stiff load of 2400. Lotta work to do with this one before the killin’ starts, though accuracy is certainly up to the task of deer whacking.

The Henry eliminates the problems of OAL and feeding some bullet shapes that levers suffer from and hopefully will let me use FTX bullets without trimming cases back.

Nice little rifle, for not much more that the current price of custom Contender barrels, and a fraction of that for lever actions.

The 158 grain semi wadcutter has been killing hogs around here for years and it does not seem to shoot poorly at around 150 yards.

The pigs don't like them at all.

I would have no problem using them if they shot ti aim in your rifle.

It would be fun if it was 357 maximum...

Haha, you let the cat out of the bag, George!

Not being too terribly impressed with its accuracy thus far, I did what I should've done in the first place - I did a cerrosafe chamber cast. Lo and behold, it turns out not to be a .357 Magnum, rather it's a.357 Maximum, with a long throat to boot. (The barrel says ".357") Silly me. My bullets have been rattling around over a half inch between the case mouth of a .357 until it hits the rifling. Chamber dimensions, throat diameter (though a bit long), groove diameter (.357), and twist are all normal. A .223 cartridge makes "the bend" down over the breechblock and into the chamber so I'm confident a Max cartridge will too. It's back to square one now, as soon as the sampling of Max fixin's (some brass, and some more bullet samples) arrives from Oregon. A public shout-out and thank you, George.

You know what they say about the word "assume"? Well, it certainly made an ass out of me!

The .357 Maximum is one that has eluded me. Try as I might there are a couple that have gotten past me and it's one of them.

"Onward, ever upward!"

the goods will be in the mail tomorrow.

The H&R pardner rifle/carbine 357 barrels are notoriously long chamber and throated too. Not quite 357 max length, but certainly longer than 357.

That allows you to seat the bullets a little long and gives you more case capacity too if you're trying to push and squeeze everything you can get out of it.

I have some 110 gr hornady jacketed pills that you can easily push to 1850 fps without breaking a sweat. I dont' remember what the 158's were doing. Probably in the 1600's if I were guessing, all depending on which powder you use. The slower burning powders will generally do better in the 16 and 18 and 20 inch barrels because they have more room to continue building pressure down the bore. I don't mind sharing my recipe with you if you'd like it, just let me know. Just remember that you can't use it in a cylinder because you won't be able to get it closed due to being too long for that.

357 is a staple for whitetail in my area.

I've been shooting a 357 Max rifle since 2008. It's hard to beat 28gr of A1680 and a 180gr bullet.

Maybe I missed it, what's your twist rate?

1-15", measured three times to confirm. 8 grooves/lands of equal width. .357 groove diameter, .358 throat diameter (sizing bullets to .358). Throat length a tad long at .375" - first trials conducted with soft Lee 200 grain cast flat nose with a semi-bore riding nose seated pretty far out of the case, to within 1/16" of contact with lands (barely covering up the lube groove), OAL length 2.205", .050" longer than directed in Lyman loading manual.

Initial testing of trial lot, 18.0 grain RL-7 starting load per manual, shows great promise. (Should be in neighborhood of 1600fps out of 26" barrel, not chrono'ed yet.) In depth experimentation to continue after healing from cataract surgery in shooting eye this Thursday.



Powders on the table for trial in addition to RL-7: Li'l Gun, 4227, 1680, H-110.

Cbashooter pointed out an interesting historical anecdote: The .357 Maximum is identical to the 19th century .35-30 Maynard. Case length and diameter is the same as that old target round. Coincidence, or Remington/Ruger saw a good thing 40 years ago but didn't think a ".35-30 Maynard" would catch on the modern shooting world?

That twist rate lends itself to a greater range of bullet weights and lengths. I have tried almost all those powders and find myself using 1680 the most. Years ago, then Accurate Powders chief ballistatition, Johann Loubster did some pressure testing for a friend of mine. He determined it was nearly impossible to get too much 1680 in the 357 Max. One would really have to get creative with a 6 foot drop tube.

I'm fairly certain Elgin Gates developed the 357 Super Mag aka 357 Maximum.

Reloader 7 is also a great 357 Max rifle powder.
in the Ruger #1 357 mags with a 265g plainbase with a case full of R7 almost touched 1000 fps and would often shoot MOA.I sold that to my buddy in 1998 or so and he punched it to 357 max. Loaded with R7 and a 200g cast HP took a few deer.its long ago so I don't recall what loads I helped him work up though.

johna1

yup on the long throats .

I had a handi 357 and could seat the Lyman 358318 and RCBS 35-250 to the crimp grooves and they shot fantastic. Somewhere buried in a forum post from years ago there is the data I posted .I think I called it the 9.1x33 Whisper Rimmed.