Has anyone actually used the Lyman 311041 bullets in their 30-30 ??

I have some, and the ogive don't fit my gun. (Win Mdl. 94)

In other words, chambering pushes the bullet way beyond the crimping groove.

Thanks,
Smitty of the North

chambering, as in when you slide it in the magazine tube? it gets pushed in.

or how deep you have to seat it in order to get it to function?

Have you crimped the bullet? Frankly, your post is a bit confusing as to what the problem is. A before and after set of pictures would go a long way in solving your problem.
Paul B.

I've shot that bullet (sized .309") by the hundreds out of two or three M94s - all pre-AE if that matters. It may be true that some bear against or are close to the lands. I do know that the bullet shoots very well in my rifles.

I too shoot the 173gr lyman.Do very well in both our win94's and marlin336. I seat them to and crimp in the top groove. have no problem closing the lever/bolt.We fl sz the brass and trim to 2.020".What is your case trim length. If it's too close to max length, it could be pushing the ogive too far forward. Just my .0475's worth. Dave

Gentlemen:
I�ll try to make my question more clear.

Chambering means putting the round in the chamber.

My practice, is to seat a bullet long, and chamber it, to determine where the lands are. Then I seat it deeper to insure that there is no contact with the lands.

When I do this, using this bullet, the crimping groove ends up inside the case neck. That means, that if I were to crimp into the crimping groove, the bullet would really be jammed into the lands. The amount is so much that it isn't something that can be taken care of by trimming the cases, to the minimum length, or even a little less.

If the bullet was designed for the 30-30, wouldn't the bullet be, not quite to the crimping groove? I would then be able to seat to where the end of the case is at the crimping groove on the bullet, and crimp it there, and the bullet wouldn't be touching the lands when I chamber it.

Apparently, the ogive of this bullet is larger than the throat of my rifle. (I have some other bullets (Lazer Cast) (Alloy too hard) that I can seat to where I can crimp into the groove and the bullet doesn�t, contact the lands.)

I got these Lyman 411041 bullets on the assumption that they would work like that in my 30-30, but they don't.

I was wondering it this is unique to my rifle, or if the Lyman 411041 was really a 30-30 bullet. I can call Lyman after the week end, on that, I guess.

I'm also wondering what my alternatives are as to shooting these bullets. Since the bullet is relatively soft, can I crimp anywhere on the bullet? (without a groove)

Thanks again
Smitty of the North

Smitty, get a factory crimp die (I believe Lee makes one for 30-30), and you can crimp anywhere without ruining accuracy. Just don't try cuttng the bullet in two!

I would try crimping in the crimping groove, and shooting a few for accuracy. Never know, they may do quite well even if it is a bit long.

HawkI:
I'm using a Lee Factory Crimp die, I can do that. I did a couple of dummy rounds that way, and they feed through the magazine OK. I dunno what else I can do if I'm to use these bullets, other than having the throat on my rifle lengthened. I am reluctant to do that.

Blammer:
If I did crimp into the crimping groove, I dunno if the round would even chamber, but if it did, I believe it would break the crimp loose. It would be more than a "bit long".

Thanks
Smitty of the North

The forward portion is designed to ride on top of the lands, or be slightly engraved by the lands. The aft portion should be sized to fit the groove diameter. Unless the nose diameter is grossly oversize it should pose no problem for you.

It's not beyond the realm of possibility that you got an oversize mould. Before condemning it though, have you slugged your bore to determine both bore and groove diameter? Perhaps you have a bore a little on the tight side- not totally unheard of also.

Anyway, if it were mine, I would at least crimp it normally and try chambering it. Upon withdrawing it unfired from the chamber if the bullet wasn't pushed back (or left stuck in the throat) I wouldn't worry too much about it. A nice tight nose-bearing bullet will generally give much better accuracy. Essentialy, under these conditions, the bullet is starting out perfectly centered in the rifling instead of having to jump, skip, hop, wobble up to the starting line, so to speak!

Crimp the bullet only enough to guarantee function. Crimps are another accuracy eroder with cast bullets if done with too heavy a hand.

gnoahhh:

I didn't think the Lyman 311041 wass a bore riding design. It doesn't appear to be.

Anyhoo, I tried your suggestion. (Blammer's too) I made a dummy round, with the bullet crimped into the crimping groove. It chambered OK, AND the bullet didn't stay in the barrel when I extracted it. Hmmm, that was unexpected. (by me)

The lands did make very distinct marks on the bullet. Of course this lead alloy is comparatively soft. I wonder if a soft alloy creates bullets larger than a harder alloy

I was busy today until late this evening. I shall call Lyman tomorrow, about this too.

Thanks to all my advisors. I sure need'em.

Smitty of the North

A bit more antimony and tin would help shrink them. If I remember right my alloy cast at about .300/.301 for the forward portion. Shot a lot of them in a M94, got several deer with it before I sold it.

Smitty,
Based on what I've read, you probably have the PERFECT recipe for an accurate cast load. Yes, very few Lyman designs ARE NOT bore riding in the nose, but since you can chamber and crimp and most importantly remove the loaded cartridge while having land engraving on the bullet, you are in luck. Cast bullets really LIKE touching the lands, as gnoah has stated. Do not overcrimp!
You do not mention your alloy, but adding tin and antimony will make your bullets LARGER.
I generally find that harder bullets from rifles shoot better, assuming your lube is working.
If you are using WW,if you want to make "smaller" bullets, add some pure lead. You can always make even half ww half pure lead harder if you need it by heat treating (from 8 BHN to 16 BHN).
Lyman will probably not be much help. Much of their great knowledge of casting is in their Manual.
Having the lands engrave the nose means the bearing surface is filling the throat, that's a plus! To put it another way, you would not want barrel diameter in a revolver, you want to match the throats. Rifles are essentially the same, if you want accuracy, align the bullet in the throat, but touching the lands as well ("soft" lead will not go out of balance by mashing if aligned this way).
Finally, before you change everything, allow the gun to speak! Your loaded cartridges may be more satisfying to look at after you fire them! Perhaps the only disease is that they are not aesthetically pleasing!

Spend the time you would spend calling Lyman by shooting those bullets instead!

Essentially any cast bullet with a nose smaller in diameter than the base is (or should be) a bore-riding design. It doesn't have to be very long- but the longer the better, as a general rule. If it rides the top of the lands properly.

A bullet with grease grooves the length of the bullet is another matter. They are known as "Loverin-style", after a target shooter/ experimenter/consultant to Lyman/Ideal 100 yrs. ago or so. Typical example of one is the old Lyman 311466. The idea was to have the front driving bands be slightly bigger in diameter than the bore, with the succeeding bands being progressively larger in diameter until the bottom ones fill the grooves. Recent ones ( the last 40yrs. or so) tend to be all one diameter though. Pretty much you are presenting a tapered slug into the throat, for perfect alignment. Accuracy guaranteed.

It all boils down to how well the bullet is introduced into the rifling. We won't go into bore-riding designs with bases tapered to match the throat of an individual rifle. Guys who are into it to that extent are getting accuracy that would make benchrest shooters of a generation ago blush.

Bottom line- shoot what you have. I'm betting you'll be pleasantly surprised. Try 15gr. SR-4759 if you can lay your hands on some.

Sorry for the long-winded diatribe, but this is a subject near-and-dear to my heart!!

OK guys, I�m gonna shoot some like you suggest. It peers like I was worried fer nuthin.

I couldn�t get any TS from Lyman today anyway. I was transferred to a Voice Mail.

The bullet nose IS a bit smaller than the forward driving band. Maybe .0005

I didn�t mould these bullets myself. They are WW with a little tin. The hardness was tested at 12-13. I wanted a mix that wouldn�t shatter on hard resistance. I�ve tested some that did shatter on a box stuffed full of magazines and catalogs. That slick paper is really tuff on bullets. Much tougher than newspaper or phone books.

I have some SR 4759, but my intention for these bullets, is to use them as a replacement for jacketed bullets. I want to shoot them at a speed that is comparable.

Thanks to all, for the answers I needed.

Smitty of the North

Smitty I've been following this with some interest. In theory, what you want can be done, that is either duplicate or get close to factory specs with cast lead in a 30-30. Your alloy at 11-12 BHN might be a hair too soft to prevent leading entirely, but should work OK. My alloy runs right at 14 BHN and I get no leading. My bullets are sized at .310"
While Lyman's #311041 should be a good bullet, my luck with it in two different molds and an NEI clone have been zip. (FWIW, I have nearly 100 molds in various calibers gathered up in 53 years of bullet casting.)Doesn't mean I won't sit down and play with it some more.
Bullets that have worked for me in the 30-30 are Lyman's #311291 (good 30-30 bullet designed in 1905) and the RCBS #30-180-FN. The Lyman bullet casts right at 175 gr. in my alloy and the RCBS bullet at 190 gr. it's no big deal to pust that 190 gr. bullet to 1950 FPS from a 20" 30-30 barrel and the load duplicates the old .303 Savage which ain't a bad place to be.
I have taken 15 deer with the Lyman bullet and two so far with the RCBS bullet. Most of the areas I seem to draw for deer are not quite 30-30 country so the 94s and Marlin have stayed at home. I'd run a batch this week but it's too damned hot to be casting bullets. An hour ago, it was 104 in the shade and there ain't no shade.
Paul B.

PJGunner:
That's good info. Thanks for your reply.

I don't mind a heavier bullet. I just want one that chambers, easier when I crimp into the crimping groove.

I've been real busy, but I loaded and tested 12 rounds. The bullet are engraved by the rifling. I understand, and it has been pointed out to me on this thread that this isn't necessarily a bad thing, but some of them chambered pretty hard. Enough so, that I don't think these bullets would be practical for hunting from that standpoint alone.

I'll load some more, and maybe determine if the ones that chamber harder have runout. ?????

The problem I have is the ogives are too tight fitting in the throat. Maybe so, my rifle is different. I'm still working it out, as time permits. I'll be trying different bullets, I reckon.
Thanks Again.
Smitty of the North

Smitty of the North

Smitty, you did not specify the size of your bullet. Perhaps sizing them .001 smaller will help. Runout is not your problem, casting variances (diameter) is. The mold not closing completely, even minutely, even when sized, and can cause some bullets to be larger than others. Lead alloys will also spring back after sizing, just like brass. You are close! Fitting cast is the most important part. Perhaps sorting your smallest nose sizes and throat sizes will help. I finally would suggest contacting LBT to get a mold made specifically for your gun. You won't have to dink with the bullet at all and the fitting will not vary like bore ride bullets will. Once you figure it out you can cast for anything, hit jacketed speeds, and spend less money!
Hoff

Are your bullets coming from a 2-cavity mould? Lyman (bless their hearts) has/had a rep for scratchy quality control back in the day. It wasn't at all unusual to get two different diameter bullets out of the same mould. Could explain why some chamber easier than others.

If such is the case, here's a little trick you can do: Determine which cavity is the "good" one, take a sharp center punch and LIGHTLY punch a tiny mark on the nose portion of the cavity right ahead of the front driving band. And I mean LIGHTLY! The bullets that come out of that cavity will have a small, barely noticeable (if you hit it lightly!) bellybutton-looking mark that will allow you to keep the bullets segregated. I usually make a punch mark further out on the nose of the 2nd cavity as well. (If I'm in an anal accuracy mood I orient the bullets into the lubri-sizer, thence into the case, and then into the gun the exact same way each time. Filed witness marks on all three lining up on the "bellybuttons" on the bullets. Heck, if I'm really anal I'll use just one cartridge case and reload it repeatedly right at the shooting bench.)

Good luck. Geez, I wish there had been forums like this to tap into when I was coming up. Could've avoided a lot of costly/time consuming mistakes.

HawkI:
They are sized OK. They are so big at the nose, (ogive) that it engraves the rifling in my rifle. I didn�t mould these bullets myself. I don�t have the mould.

Maybe they do have varying nose diameters. I can check on that. I was scratching, looking for a reason why some were tighter than others. I thought some might be mis-aligned.

As to the right mould, I bought some bullets from Oregon Trail, (Lazer Cast) that fit perfectly, but the alloy is too hard. I�m trying to find bullets suitable for hunting.
Thanks
Smitty of the North




Gnoahhh:
I didn�t mould these bullets myself. I dunno what kinda mould the guy used for them. It could have been a double cavity one for all I know. That might explain why some chambered harder than others. I've never heard of marking them that way, but it sounds like a good idea.

I can shoot these bullets, so they aren�t a waste. At this point I�m guessing they won�t be my final choice though.

Yeah, these forums are a big help, and I�m taking advantage of this one.

Thanks to all contributors. It gets interestinger, and interestinger.
Smitty of the North

Smitty. Take a few of those bullets and stick the nose into the muzzle. (Don't remember if I asked you to try that.) The ones I have are so darn loose they wobble. (Just checked them last night for splits and grins.)I think I'm going to try the process called "Beagling) to see if I can make the noses larger in diameter. That might cure the problem. The real bitch is now I have to melt down a full 3 pound coffee can full of those little buggers. I dunno why I didn't check that aspect out before. What does puzzle me is why all three molds have the same problem? I have an older Lyman #311291 that cast a perfectly sized nose, but the newer one I bought makes too small a nose and it rattles in the muzzle. Methinks Lyman may be trying to cut costs by using a cherry to cut the molds way too long. What hurts the most as the bullets are perfect to the eye, just too damned small in the nose area. Even the NEI mold makes too small a nose.
BTW, nose fit is one of the critical points toward getteg good accuracy from cast bullets. Only having a perfect base is more important and properly fitted gas checks usually takes care of that problem.
Paul B.

PJGunner:
These are extremely tight. I hadda use a hammer to gittum in, and a vice to gittum out.

I'm gonna be gone for awhile. I'll work on this when I get back.
Smitty of the North

hey smitty, ifin' ya want i can send a few of my lyman casts an' have you see if they'll work! they are the 311041 cast 173gr fn/gc lemme' know. Dave

Lucky 7:
I'll send you a PM about this, when I get back from my trip.
Smitty of the North

Smitty,
Man I feel bad you have to put up with fighting this! I don't have a FLAT nosed 30 cal. mould to give you, but of course I have 22, 338, 35, 44, 416, & 45'S! Lyman makes it cheap to get into casting, but their bore riding designs are a curse! Essentially you have two diameters to fit and the "bore riding" nose is small just so the bullet will chamber in many rifles (except yours!). If you choose to stay with this mold you have a few options:
1. Have your friend use 1/2 pure lead and 1/2 ww and heat treat them. This alloy will not fragment and will be slightly harder than what your using. It will also cast at a slightly smaller diameter.
2. Have your friend size the NOSE only to the next smaller diameter, unfortunately this size is .285, and the bullets may also "bend" when sizing this way. Accuracy will suck because the bore riding portion will be even more unstabilized.
3. Get a .285 die, have a machinist open it up to .299/300 diameter. Use the nose sizing technique above. Again, "bore riding" noses don't touch the gooves, and lack stability.
4. Seat your bullet until it chambers, functions, and just barely makes contact with throat/rifling metal. Mildly crimp wherever you need to with your factory crimp die. You won't be able to use the crimp groove, but that's okay.
The best route is to contact LBT, get the slugs, slug your throat and bore, send him the slug and have a flat nose 30/30 bullet made just for your gun and he can put the crimp exactly where it needs to be! It will not be a bore riding nose AND you can load it and fire it like a jacketed bullet! Casting diameters won't exist because you will be sizing the bearing surfaces. Maybe your friend will spring for half?
All of these will be cheaper than rethroating your gun, or at least in the ballpark.
I hate to see you struggling because folks get the idea that cast is difficult, low velocity, inaccurate, and a pain to deal with. This is all true if the bullet doesn't fit. WAY to big or small can only be found if you know your gun's dimensions.
I'll try to post some pics to help you out if you want.
Hear ya when you get back.

Hey guys,
Been following this discussion with great interest. I have some Cabelas points to use up and they stock this mould (311041). I was wondering how this bullet would perform in some other 30 caliber rounds. I have an M1 (30-06), a Win 88 (308), a 300 RUM (Rem 700), and of course an old pre AE 94 in 30-30. I'm pretty sure I don't want to be using this bullet, or any cast bullet, in the 300 RUM, but what about in the M1 and the 308 lever gun. It would be nice to have a mould I could feed several guns with that was essentially free. This would be my first sub 44 cal casting venture. Any differences worth noting in technique from those used for the fat boy bulletss? Appreciate any advice. Thanks fellas.

That bullet should work ok in your M1. Cast them as hard as you can (I used straight Linotype in mine) because you have to reach a certain energy level to reliably cycle the action, and you'll have leading problems if you use a too soft bullet. Not so much in the barrel generally speaking (let's not get into bore condition, lubes, etc.), but in the gas port and gas cylinder where it will build up to one degree or another. If you shoot cast in an M1 plan on cleaning those areas more often than you would normally.

Never cast for a .30cal. bigger than the '06. Never saw a need to own one. Just me.

My advise would be to get the mould, cast and size a bunch of them (for all around use in a few different rifles I would go .309" or maybe .310" for starters), get a copy of a decent manual (Lyman's comes to mind) and have at it. Don't try to hotrod your loads right off the bat. Start out slow and go up if you feel the need. You may not get around to "going up"- the slow ones are just too much fun to shoot! Use the dies you already have. The seater die will probably leave a ring on the nose of the bullet, unless it is designed for round nosers. Don't worry about it. Add a mouth expanding die to your collection to help ease the slightly oversize bullet into the case, or just chamfer the heck out of the case mouth (works but not as good). Don't worry about crimping unless they have to feed through a tube magazine.

The important thing is just do it. When you have problems (and you will) post a query here and someone will jump in with an answer. Hopefully someone not as long winded as me!

Smitty, Sorry that those aren't working out. They are sized 0.310. You might try a lee push through sizer @ 0.309 or .308. The lube should stay on as they are resized. These run about $12 or so and come with their liquid lube. Gianni.

HawkI:
Thanks for the info. I didn't know there was so much to using cast bullets.

I got these bullets on a trade, from someone on the Internet. I don't have a friend close by who is making bullets for me. I have some experience in casting bullets, and shooting cast bullets in a rifle, but it is very limited. I don't want to get into casting them myself, at this point, but it is interesting nonetheless. I have a Lee Mould but IIRC, I had the same situation with it years ago. My rifle must be tight like you say.

I'm just trying to find some bullets more suitable for my gun. These will work, but they are just a tight at the nose. I will be shooting them though. I have some coming from BTB, and I will be trying another brand too.

Thanks again.
Smitty of the North

MT Gianni:
Not a problem. I have one of those Lee sizers already. It sizes the body, not just the nose portion. Actually, the problem is that the nose portion of the bullets are too tight for easy chambering. I should be able to use them though.

Smitty of the North

If I might suggest a substitute bullet mold, I think you just might be happier with Lyman's #311291 which is popular enough that it should still be available. The only difference between it and #311041 is in the nose. Weight is just about the same and the round nose should feed better in the M-1. The bullet works just fine up to full power loads in the 30-30 as well and is a sweetheart in the .308. I ahve both molds in question and the 311291 is the one I go due due to problems I have with 311041.
FWIW, #311291 has been around since 1905.
Paul B.

hey smitty, did ya get the 311041's figured out. Mine were cast as .309dia then sized & gas checked to .308dia. they worked very well in our 2-win94's and my marlin 336. If you want some let me know. Dave

Yeah, the NOSE diameter is .308, which is too tight in the bore of my rifle. If I load'em and Crimp, I can force them into the rifling, but it's a tight squeeze. So much so, that it really slows things down.

I sent you a PM regarding your offer.

Thanks
Smitty of the North

I just did a "Beagle" job on the two #31141 (old number) molds and on the NEI mold and ran a few of each. I think the nose may be the proper size now. I'll have to make up a few dummy rounds and see how they feed, The process did make the driving band way over side at about .318" though. I tried sizing a few abd it looks as if the nosed get bent a little. That ain't good. I have the same trouble with Lyman's #311284, as do some friends of mine who use the same bullet. No big deal. I have an old Lyman #45 luber-sizer that I can't get parts for. I can still put the sizing die in it and make a punch to push bullets through nose first. Once they're sized, then I can run them through a luber-sizer in the normal manner. I've tried that in a manner of speaking with the #311284 and it looks like it might work. I still have to figure out a way to catch the bullets as they come out the other end. I've got a spare bullet catcher from a Dillon 500B so I may try and adapt that to do the job.
Paul B.

mabey a Lee push through sizer may be the ticket.

Hi Smitty, How'ld ya like them 30-30 boolits I sent ya.
They're just what the doc ordered. Lots of my friends have me make 'em for 'em. It ya need anymore, lemme know, I'll dig out the rcbs furnace and 40 or 50 bars. Take care buddy, chat with ya later, Dave

Lucky_7:
Your boolits are mighty fine. I loaded up 20 rounds and fired them today. 10, were with 29 grains, and 10, with 30 grains of of H4895. I'm still testing, but I think the 30 grains will prove to be the most accurate. Velocity in my 16.5 inch barrel, was in the 1900s. I may up it a 1/2 grain, and try that too.

I intend to try some penetration tests too, in comparison to 170 grain hornady jacketed bullets.

Thanks, I'll letcha know when I need more of'em.

Smitty of the North

Glad to see success Smitty! Fit,fit, fit is the key to cast! Hope they work like you want them to.

Thanks HawkI:
I'm sure you're right.

These boolits from Lucky_7 are the right size at the nose, so I don't have to force them into the rifling like the others.

I'm glad I have access to the kind of information I can get from this forum. I appreciate all those who helped or even tried to help.
Smitty of the North

Lucky(or anyone else): I need a hunting bullet for my .30-30's
(M94, M99 & Contender) that will expand(?), maybe(?), yes or
no? Do I use WW or WW/pure lead? The only deer I've taken have
been with muzzleloader pure lead .50's so I haven't had to worry
about expansion. Also, what mixture will work in my .308? I have
to shoot 150's because the Ruger 18 1/2" does not want to stabi-
lize 165-180 very well.
Last, but, not least, what mixture for .45ACP(900fps) and 9mm
(1150 fps), expansion not an issue.
Thanks for any comment(s).

I would use WW's across the board.

WW's are good enough to not lead when GC's at relatively high velocities, if it is, you may want to change lube. WW's are soft enough at high velocity to expand and punch through nicely. I'd shoot for bone with lead bullets.

I've shot 311041 by the thousands in various .30/30s, mostly M94s, always either unsized or sized .310, always crimped in the crimp groove, usually over 18.5 grains of 2400, with never a problem. I've also shot a bunch of them seated long and uncrimped in .308, .30/06, and 7.62x54R.

Tracy:
There are apparently boolits and boolits. With the problematic ones, the NOSE diameter is .308, which is too tight in the bore of my rifle.

Possibly, they were from an older mold design, because the ones I have now, gotten from Lucky 7 fit jist fine. Both were spose to be from a Lyman 311041.

Anyway, I've got what I need now.

Smitty of the North

Hi contender, sorry I'm late to get back been in/out of town. I make a 90% ww,5% tin and 5% antimony for my 311041's. then I heat treat them to 10-12 on the brinell scale. They have a medium expansion with about 75-80% weight retention. I sold Smitty all I have cast sooo I gotta get busy this winter and make some more. Hope this info helps ya. Dave.