It kind of surprised me as I have never had an issue with Barnes bullets. It was an 85gr TSX from a 243. It is stoked pretty fast at 3250fps or so. Me and my sons have killed a lot of GA and PA whitetails with this load. We always get an exit wound and the deer does not go very far.

This past Friday I am in my treestand and a young buck comes out with mangled horns so I decide to take him out of the gene pool. He was only 15 yards away. I made a nice shot behind the shoulder. He went down, then got up and ran off but heard him fall not too far in the thicket behind the stand. There was hair where he was standing, but no blood. I left him be for about 45 mins then went after him. I could not find any spots of blood or any signs of a hit. I KNEW I hit him though. I started doing a grid search and found him. When I looked where I hit him, there was only a 6mm hole going in and no exit wound. No blood on him anywhere. When I field dressed him, one lung was damaged and the heart had 5 holes in it. Definitely a good kill shot but I am not used to that performance from Barnes...more like Remington Corelokts I used to use. Later that night I was skinning him, I could see where the bullet hit a rib and came apart. The wound channel on the inside of the rib cage on the side where the bullet entered was about 1 inch in diameter.


I know some of you will say that it is not a failure since it killed the deer quickly and I found it. I agree to a point but I use Barnes Bullets because they penetrate so well. Where I hunt I need either a good blood trail or a DRT type of performance. If neither of these occur, recovery can be problematic. Am I expecting too much from the bullet? I guess next time, let him get out away from the stand a bit before pulling the trigger.

I agree, bullets should exit virtually every time. I am big on Barnes and have personally never caught one. I see amazing stuff with 80gr TTSX in 25-06 in far bigger critters, but some stick around. There are at least two more contributing factors. Shot placement is very important. You took out the pump and put the only leak up high.

According to the trends on the 'fire..the .243 is an elk round...you shot the wrong species.

Interesting. I hadn't heard of the TSX breaking up like that before.

Thanks for the info. Wonder if the bullet was brittle somehow?

Guy

TSXs in the smaller calibers do have a tendency to pencil through. The fix is to switch over to the TTSX. Frankly, save for the big bores I don't know why Barnes still makes the TSX and not the TTSX exclusively.

The lack of an exit is a surprise, as is the bullet fragmenting upon striking a rib. The bullet did its job (sort of), but I would call it a "failure to perform as expected."

Weird schit happens. Don't let one anomaly determine your viewpoint. THAT is the mistake people make too often, not "expecting too much of the bullet."

The only rifle shot deer that I've ever lost was with a 140 grain TSX from a 7mm-08. 5 drops of blood and two days of looking. The buck the year before had a quarter size hole through both lungs instead of lung mush and that should have told me something. I suspect that the TTSX is a much better bullet, but I'll never shoot another Barnes anything.

Or the LRX. Mistake #1 is using a .243 85 gr bullet on deer. I have seen these take out wild pigs in California, but I have also seen them hit a pig and end up with a 4 hour tracking job itno the night.

You need the right balance of diameter and weight, even with copper bullets. For medium-sized deer, My personal min. would be a .257 with a 100 gr. TTSX. This bullet would more reliably expand and have more momentum to push for an exit. I skip over this and shoot a .277 (270 Win.) with 130 gr bullets and it's almost too much which is exactly what you need on 125-175lbs deer. Even then, I find myself just using my 300 win mag with 190 gr. LRX bullets for pretty much everything.

Maybe you missed this part of the OP:

My two cents is go for a high shoulder shot with Barnes bullets. Break bone.

No one asked your opinion on what caliber to use dumbass. My guess is, it was just a fluke.

I read that part. In my experience, you increase risk and probability of failure the longer that you use light for caliber and smaller caliber bullets.

There is no need for any name calling, here or anywhere. That is not acceptable behavior.

I was trying to help and share my experience. You are welcome to do the same. If I offended the OP, no harm meant and they can take care of themselves and politely PM me or respond.

I was in the Navy for 21 years. I do not get offended! Offer any and all suggestions. I have thought about a 25-308 for quite some time. I may have to do that...

For the record, the bullet did not pencil through. It came apart!

That is all I use in my 6mm rem. ( 85 grain Barnes reloader 19) Never had one do that. Always had a pass through.

Ignoring the odd off topic above,
I have never had a Barnes come apart, that does seem odd to me.
Were the holes in the heart- bone rather than copper?
I would expect 15 yards and 3250 might pass through but that said creating a bullet that will hold together at 15 yards but reliably open at 500 is an engineering challenge.

So you're claiming that an 85 grain all-copper bullet is now "light for caliber" in a 243 Winchester, and that .243" is "smaller caliber" for deer. Barnes must not know what they are doing, producing these bullets. I guess all the guys using the 22 caliber version to good effect countless times must also be ignorant, and experiencing flukes.

I don't even know what else to say to drivel like that. I guess the 180 TSX in some 30 cal is the next logical step?

There were a couple of pieces of bone in the heart but the holes I assumed were copper but may have been bone. Engineering "challenge" is an understatement. I have been amazed at Barnes ability to penetrate over the years. I remember one where I shot a deer as it was wheeling around to run away. I jumped him from his bed on a steep hill above me and got off a quick snap shot. The 85gr TSX went in behind the shoulder out through the off side shoulder, into its neck, through the spine and still exited!

Understand. Some are more easily offended. No harm meant, just my experience shared. I think that the 25-308 would make for a cool combo! Here's a good source of info on it:

The deer was shot at close rangevwith very high velocity impact. I'd wager the 5 holes in the heart are from the 4 petals and the bullet shank.
A spine hit would have dropped him in his tracts

... Or how about a 7mm-08 and use just about any bullets. No need for something specialized for deer. It doesn't need a trick bullet. You don't need to try for a high shoulder shot. Standard bullets work perfectly without the need to "drive them hard" or "drop down a weight or two". My $0.02

It’s a Whitetail for pete’s seek, it doesn’t take a huge bullet to kill a dinky dog deer. 85 grains is enough, sounds like the bullet had a flaw.

I already have one of those and a 338Fed if I am in a fat bullet mood. Teeder, how have you been?

Doing well. How have you been?
Sounds like your set with those two. 👍

I think with the example of one, it is hard to extrapolate what happened. If the bullet came apart, there is no other bullet that is tougher. The ttsx and everything else would have come apart too.
If the bullet penciled but yet sent shrapnel into the heart then maybe.

But I would not change religions from the single example. The religions of more power, more powder, more bullet or more energy dump all have their preachers.

My brother shot an elk last week with my rifle.
He assumed hold low low...information failure, apparently my fault, so I am told
He shot just above her brisket(300 wsm 175lrx) the bone fragments took out the heart bullet passed through. It could have been the bullet shedding petals, I guess I don’t know for sure.



I shot a shoulder shot on a whitetail this week and let’s say I lost most of that shoulder meat. But no runny.

Bullets do strange things sometimes. You my never see a Barnes bullet act like that again in a hundred deer or a hundred years.

Thanks for sharing your story.

I would agree. I have used the 85 grain TSX and have always been pleased with the results. Maybe a bad batch you got.

If you don't think an 85gr out of a 243 is enough for deer, your knowledge of ballistics is a clueless as your politics...

This is kind of amusing to me. Not the undetermined bullet failure but, if this had been a Sierra or Speer a mob would have formed with new rope wanting to lynch the offender. Since it's Barnes the consensus is that it's an anomaly and will not happen again.

This. I am not a Barnes fan, but once in a while bullets do strange things, regardless the make. Keep shooting them, you likely won't have that problem again.

I'd think it wasn't a representative sample of any of the bullets I hunt with if I saw it happen.

CL is as dumbass of the highest order. It's not even worth the time reading his useless and ignorant replies.

I forgive you JGRaider and JorgeI, you must just be on edge given the current political climate. Any of our differences pale in comparison to what we share in common and don't belong on this section of the forum nor on the OP's thread.

Jorge, we share a buddy in common, just ask John Sharp. It was great to see him again on his book tour stateside.

When it comes to firearms and ballistics, I stand by what I shared and unless you misinterpreted what I shared, is entirely defensible.

If that bullet really did break apart then it did indeed "fail", regardless of whether it killed the deer or not. Barnes advertises deep penetration and 100% weight retention for their TSX at near unlimited velocity, or something like that which it sounds like didn't happen in this case.

I am not a barnes fan. I've had a few act bizarre, though I haven't had one come apart like that.

Where did the bullet go? Couldn't just have vaporized. The copper shank would be intact no matter what happened to the petals. 4000 fps would not hurt the bullet shank.

go and tell John you were pulling for Biden.....He'll squeeze your little neck until your head pops like a pimple..

Not trying t be a smartazz or change the subject but if you were shooting an undisturbed deer at 15 yards why in the great wide world of sports did you not shoot it in the neck? DRT every time.

Was trying to think of the few times I used smallish caliber Barnes bullets while hunting and recalled a similar scenario.

2007, mine was a 100 grain TSX at 3340 fps from my 25-06, on a mule deer at about 20 - 25 yards. That bullet tore the heck out of the buck's heart and dropped him instantly.

I noted that the heart looked like a large book that had been opened up with multiple "pages" of heart tissue - I'd never seen one damaged like that before.

No bullet was recovered of course, it was a pass-through.

I don't normally use Barnes, but that one sure worked well at very high impact velocity.

Regards, Guy

I have not had any issues but am switching to the TTSX as I run out of the TSX's. The original X bullet the hollow point was the same depth for all bullet weights so the lightest had less shank to them. It is also possible the metal was not pure copper. But I think it is just a case of S**t happens.

I have had a Corelock deflected by a deer rib when shot at a sharp angle, but not a Barnes.

I asked JB this very question recently. Here is his response!

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbt...on-for-jb-re-barnes-bullets#Post15271782

Elk Country

I've shot and seen shot a pile of Alberta deer with the .243 85gr X/TSX and 80gr TTSX. I'd say that if the OP's bullet did indeed disintegrate, that would definitely be an anomaly. I've smashed bone and driven them stem-to-stern, recovering one 85gr X from the outside round roast after it had smashed the femur, on a frontal shot. The deer died post-haste and the bullet expanded nicely. This has been the norm over several dozen deer.

The TSX did not open consistently in my use on deer and pigs.

In stark contrast, the TTSX has been outstanding and is my favorite hunting bullet. Also, the TTSX is very accurate with 0.010” of jump in every rifle.

Any chance their is a perfectly expanded Barnes in a front shoulder roast?

Not so, at all. Is that an indirect threat? At this point jorgeI, you are on my ignore list. I won't reply to you after this post since you (and several others) resort to disguised threats and name calling and can't seem to contain your non-hunting views to the "Hunter's Campfire" section.

Jordan;
Good afternoon to you my friend, I hope all is going as well as can be for you and yours on the other side of the big hills.

One of the interesting things about these sorts of discussions is the differences seen doing what should be the same thing, but there are variables for sure in hunting.

While I've never personally shot anything with a .243" Barnes, a buddy loaded them for his son and they shot a few local mulie bucks with them with no surprises.

As I've mentioned, we've switched to monometals for hunting game about 15 years back and have always had good results, but I will say that after seeing the damage on a few different combinations of muzzle velocity and bullet RPM, I've left the church of speed, renounced my beliefs pretty much and have whole heartedly converted to the followers fast twist!

I'm sure you've found a similar site, but this makes for some interesting cyphering if one is so inclined - and as you know about me sir, I absolutely am that guy.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2008/06/calculating-bullet-rpm-spin-rates-and-stability/

We've recovered a few monos over the years and all that we have are typically within a grain of original weight.



The little fellow on the left is a .257" 80gr TTSX from a .250AI with a Ron Smith gain twist barrel so that's a bit of an interesting one to attempt to figure out bullet RPM on, you know?

Before leaving that one however, I'll note it broke a rib on entrance, shredded the heart, broke another rib, shattered the ulna about an inch below the joint with the scapula and then wandered up under the hide midway up the scapula. It really rocked the mulie buck when it hit too might I add, which the .250AI doesn't always in our experience, or at least as much as say the 6.5x55 projectiles seemed to.

Anyways sir, as always there's lots of roads to Mecca or wherever the center for barrel twist cult is in my case.

All the best to you folks as we head into shorter, colder days and good luck on your remaining hunts.

Dwayne

It failed if it didn’t live up to performance claims by the mfg. otherwise it would fall under your expectations didn’t meet reality.

Why is that?

mathman;
Good afternoon to you sir, I hope the first Monday in November finds you well.

When I picked up the rifle it was an estate sale so I had to do a bit of digging on the barrel maker.

Despite my best efforts to nail down what the rate of twist actually is, I can only say it gets faster a wee bit.

My method for measuring is using a tight cleaning patch and marking the rod to see how far it went to make a rotation. While that worked on non gain twist barrels, this one sort of stumped me.

Hopefully that made some sense?

If you have a better way to measure I'm all ears for sure and certain however and thanks in advance.

All the best to you this fall.

Dwayne

I got it now, you don't know what the twist is at the end of the barrel.

mathman;
Thanks for the reply, I appreciate it.

Yes that's the case sir.

I thought I did when I first got it, but recall at the time - this is 15 odd years back so going on foggy memory here - that it seemed a bid odd, but I couldn't put my finger on it exactly.

Then read that this chap in Alberta specialized in gain twist barrels, which of course made me measure again and become even less sure of what I had.

I want to say going off of foggy memory that it starts at 1:11 but ends just a smidge faster?

Again that's without trying it again.

Thanks and all the best to you again this fall.

Dwayne

I’m just wondering if it was the rib fragments that tore up the lung and heart and the OP might have missed the bullet somewhere in the offal. A TSX or TTSX will rarely break up more than shearing petals but in my experience mono’s can occasionally be diverted elsewhere if hitting something hard and be found somewhere unexpected.

Back in the 90’s, I was experimenting with the Lost River Tech’s non-leaded version of what became Barnes’ X’s, then TSX’s. Out of a 340, one hit the point of a bull’s shoulder at 475 yards. He dropped instantly but then raised his head. I hit him again and one other time as it was getting dark and he was only fifty yards from the steep, north-facing side of a canyon.

Two were through and through but from entrance and exits appeared to not open at all. One, I’m not sure which shot, was found in a ham, somewhat bent but not expanded; it had taken an almost exact right angle after hitting the shoulder. Those bullets seemed too hard to me or just had a too-small hollow point which is also why I probably wouldn’t pick a small caliber TSX for a general big game bullet as to Jorgel’s point . The above 340’s were 210’s at 3200 at the muzzle.

I’ve even had a 375 TSX do something similar. But, mostly, large caliber TSX’s and almost all TTSX’s fail to fail.

I am big on 100g Hornady and 105g Hornady bthp....

I am a huge fan of the Barnes copper bullets. I use the in 25, 6.5 7mm,8mm and 30 cal. I’ve caught one 6.5 shot out of a 264 WM on a 150 lb bedded buck. I have had two instances where the bullets didn’t perform to perfection. Both ended in dead deer. Both were 100 gr ttsx 25 cal. One shot out of a 257 rob at 325 yards the other a 25-06 AI at 40 yards. Both gave pass through but no blood trails.

If you still have the rifle just measure the last ten inches at the muzzle or whatever it takes to make one full turn and that is the number for the RPM calculations. I bet it will be close to 1-10 or no faster than 1-9.

Reasonable approximation, but it will underestimate a bit.

The resulting rpm that is.

Dwayne,

All is well here, and I hope things are going equally well (if not better!) for you!

Fast twist is nearly never a mistake, for a few reasons, expansion on impact being one of them. When Barnes hit at light speed they can certainly cause some damage. My preference is high (but not hyper) velocity and fast twist. Works well!

I was wondering the same thing.

Yup, that is true. But it's better than nothing.

With several measurements along the length of the barrel, it would be possible to get a fairly close approximation by fitting an exponential curve to the measurements, but that's likely more effort than it's worth.

Do yourself a favor and get a 6.5CM. Skip the 25 Souper - it can't match +P loads in a 257 Roberts. If you must get a .25, get a -06. The 6.5CM has a much greater selection of factory ammo and rifles and recoil is not much greater than a .243.

Himmelhr: I simply have to ask... WHY aren't you using the wonderful Nosler 85 grain Partitions in your 243?
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

My question also

your experience? You're one of the last people I would ever listen to regarding firearms and bullet, hunting related topics. lol

I ve had the same problem unless Ive hit good bone. Hence as mentioned a high should shot is preferred with copper bullets.

Ive gone back to scenars or ELDX's

Or head, or any CNS spot. I had a .338NP 210 blow up on a moose shoulder blade.. Yeah, objectively I know it was almost certainly an anomaly. Objectively....

I won't ever use them again. I've no problem with the 250NP. Or the Sierra GK250, or my current loads, Hornady 250RN, or a TB.

Corelokts have been very good to me also....

Use a bullet that you have full confidence in.

I have used Barnes T/TSX's from 45gr to 400gr and 22 to 423 caliber. Texas to Alaska and all the way to Africa.

I have recovered more than a few and they looked very good. Some had hit bone and were not magazine picture perfect.

The only time I found petals was a 53gr TSX out of a 22-250 at 3850 fps. Impact was a neck vertebrae. Bullet was not recovered, but found two petals in the neck grind meat when processing.

As to the OP.
1. No exit, why was the bullet not recovered? Any petals recovered?

2. I think the bullet performed fairly well given the distance, shot placement, and angle of impact.. I do not think for one second that the bullet came apart. Possibly sheared some petals.

3. Lack of blood does not surprise me with the high entrance and no exit.

If I hunt thick nasty stuff, I tend to leave the Barnes at home and prefer bigger diameter lead jacketed bullets, be they plain old cup and core or bonded.

This X3 .
If and when a bullet fragments , or as you stated vaporizes there will be major tissue damage at the sight .

The bullet failed to preform as you would have liked it to.
That is not necessarily a bullet failure.
You and the bullet did kill and find your animal. Much better than that gut wrenching feeling of a lost one !

Has anyone other than me ever made a bad shot and killed the animal ?
Isn’t it funny this is never considered a bullet failure.

Even though most think we live in a perfect world .
[bleep] Happens .

Barnes on bone, CNC on lungs

Never had a problem with a TSX or TTSX through the lungs

Drop him in his tracts???

Same here, never a problem.

One of the holes in the heart was definitely from the core of the bullet. The others looked liked like the petals. The petals never exited the heart. The core did and went some where since there was no exit hole. I never did find it. Maybe the butcher will. I had little interest in finding it as I just wanted to get the thing out of the woods and onto the skinning pole.

I always liked Barnes so I tried them first and never had a reason to change.

The high impact velocity blew the 4 petal off of the shank and thev4 petals and the shank went threw the heart

That would be my guess as well. No way a mono disentigrated.

Never have liked Barnes. Way prefer “junk c&c” for doin gods work..

the 160 TTSX out of that .338 Dead-eral are baaaaad medicine. No chance of them going to fast =]