Never been one to shoot over 200 yards, but I've increasingly been in cut over areas where shots out to 400 are possible. Yes, I know A LOT of practice is required for shots past 300. Just wondering if a .308 is really giving up much to a .270 or .30-06 from 300 yards to 400 yards especially with all this new ammo that's coming out.

Is a .308 just as capable of being a 400 yard rifle as a .270 or .30-06?

Yes.

And way past 400.

I don't see why not , but only if the shooter practices at that range and has the rifle for it.

400 yards is a chip shot for a 308w. As well as it is for a 270 or ol 06. This is another one of those "rhetorical questions"..

Having confidence in your equipment, is all that is needed. So, practice with what you have.

Happy hunts.

I have exactly one place on the farm where I can shoot out to 450 yards. I've got gong now, but in the past I used milk jugs. We don't do it much, but we occasionally get set up for shooting at that distance. Believe me. It ain't that hard to get dialed in with any of our rifles. We've even done it with a Mosin Nagant.
In using it to hunt, What is going to be a problem is:

1) Learning how to read distance. We know what 450 yards is.
2) Learning how to deal with wind. I'm now putting out flags
3) Learning what your rifle and your load does

I admit that I don't have a whole lot of experience with 308 WIN. I've got one rifle in that chambering and I use it out my treestands. It is not that I wouldn't trust 308 WIN at longer distances, It just happened that I set up the rifle, a Savage 99, for that purpose. I'm sure I could make it a 400+ yard gun if I wanted to.

That one place, the 450 yard range at our farm, has another significance. It was nearing the end of one of my first deer seasons at the farm. I was coming out from an otherwise unproductive afternoon hunt. I spied a herd of doe munching out in the pasture where our 450 yard target stand now resides. I knew I wasn't going to hit anything. I just wanted to experiment to see what would happen. I did not know the exact yardage. My gun was sighted in dead-on at 50 yards. I really didn't know what I was doing in those days. I put my 30-06 against a big tree and took a shot at the closest doe, knowing that if I aimed at her chest, the round would fall well below that. I saw the bullet hit a good 7 feet below her hooves, and zip up through the grass, making some of the other doe jump. It was getting dark, and by the 3rd shot, I was mostly blinded in my right eye from the muzzle flash, and the doe were catching on that something was up and moving off. I called the experiment a success; I had proven to myself that taking a shot at that distance was foolhardy without knowing the exact distance, and attempting it without practice.

The 7.62 X 51 has been used for over 40 years as a sniper round. Doesn't that answer your question at least in part? Be Well, RZ.

I own two .308's its a fantastic cartridge, accurate and easy to load. My Rem tactical will keep three shots under a dime at 100, inside a cup at 300, and a saucer at 400, however it is not a 30:06 and like all cartridges has limitations. rusty failed to mention they also use the 50 BMG for sniping, because it reaches out farther and also gets the job done. Hathcock made a 2500 yard kill in 1962, with the BMG. Lots of big game have been killed with the .308 and that trend will continue for decades. My personal thoughts would be the smaller animals like deer, you could go out to 500 or so if you can shoot well enough and deal with the wind and actual distance. Larger game such as Elk, Moose etc, can be killed way out there, WITH A PERFECT SHOT, but the question then is, can you do it every time and under field conditions. For years my primary rifle for elk, was a 300WM, I feel much more comfortable shooting large big game out past 500 yards with it, than I would , with the .308. Just my 02 and 60 years in the field

It's been used a lot for 1000M competition.

Yes. Fine round

Load a 130 TTSX, runs within 2" of a 260 at 400 yds with a 200 yd zero............should be hanging well with 270 WCF

The 308 has slightly less MV than the 30-06 or 270 so with the same bullet you would have slightly more flight time resulting in more wind drift and of course more drop but with almost any bullet you should have plenty of energy left for deer size game. Of course if you go with a lighter bullet of say 150 or 130 grains it would give you higher MV which would help.
Either way, practice a lot and watch the wind.

Sowhat do you think will happen when the bulletfrom the 308 hit's something at 400 yds? Will the bullet bounce off? I have both 308 and 30-06 and use different weight bullet's in each. All I shoot in 308 is 165gr bullet's. Bit better velocity with the 308. !80 worked fine in my 308 but I liked the velocity of the 165 better. All I shoot in my 30-06 is 180gr bullet's. 30-06 shoots them a bit faster than the 308 And in theory the 180grs weight will out penetrate the lighter 165gr bullet. But I doubt that the 165gr bullet in the 308 properly placed at 400yds is gonna do an animal any good at all.

The farther you shoot the harder bullet you'll need - at 400 yards - a full metal jacket bullet is perfect for the little 308win. . The full metal jacket bullet will penetrate deeper because it doesn't expand .

At that distance the 168Amax and similar are devastating on deer!

Have you not seen this thread?

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/15789014/1

Hell of a lot of big critters killed well in excess of 400 yards with a 308 and with non premium hunting bulllets to boot.

Going with a lighter bullet is going to make the 308 LESS effective at distance, not more effective. Flight time is a consideration, but the difference in flight time between lighter, faster bullets and slower, heavier, yet higher-BC bullets becomes irrelevant at ranges beyond 400 yards, and the higher BC bullet is going to be better at holding onto velocity and energy, as well as being more predictable in variable wind. Going light and fast has an outer limit of benefit, and it is generally about 500 yards, even with the biggest of big boomers, like the Lazzeroni cartridges.

When is the sarcasm emoji going to be a thing again?

Sounds like a douchey response to me. Better go back to the Hunters Campfire. You're obviously out of your league here

Sure wish i could find John Barsness' article on the .308 in, I believe "Handloader" magazine. Some here might be rather amazed what he wrote. Great article.

150 grains

#Money

Try and grow a sense of humor - douchemike --hint; +P

Don, was that response to me or the OP?

Killed lots of deer and hogs with my.308 over 40 years, but mostly under 200 yards. I can remember only three shots at game over 200 yards: I used Hornady light magnum and Superperformance.
1. pronghorn at 240 - broadside shoot through , one shot kill.
2. Black Hills Mule deer at estimated 300 yards with cross wind-- held mid neck and shot through heart lung area - one shot kill (real challenge was crossing steep, snowy canyon to recover buck)
3. Whitetail buck at a stepped off 400 yards - broadside lung shot - DRT.

The challenge is knowing the range and wind, and of course , the rifle and cartridge.

All kills were shoot throughs - no bullets recovered.

Just a few years ago here on the 'fire 300 yds was considered chip shot by some. My how we have progressed.

But, 300 yds in the field is more than a chip shot. Shooting under field conditions ain't the same as at the range..........

The “2,700 or bust” article?

Would that be "Why the .308 is Great" perhaps? It is in Obsessions of a Rifle Loony which shows to be in stock at riflesandrecipes.com.

I’ve enjoyed shooting the 308. Mild recoil, easy to find a decent load, and it takes game easily. If 400 is your max, you’re not under-gunned.

Think of it this way, the 308 and 300 win mag shoot the same bullet. No one would question the idea that the 300 win mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge. By looking at impact velocities. That would make the 308 an easy 300 yard elk cartridge.

The OP asked about 400yards. If he was asking about 750 or 900 the answer would have been different.

Look up the thread "Bear Medicine .300 Savage"

WaterRat's wife has a couple one shot kills on big Grizzlies with a .300 Savage.....Should answer the question...

May error... it is 20 plus Bears plus 20 plus moose...

I differentiate between chip shot with respect to the performance of a cartridge and chip shot with respect to my ability to apply same in a given situation.

type of rifle and brand,hand loads ? factory ammo ? and barrel length ? these things all play an important part in shooting 300-400 yards .as far as cartridge i see very little difference between a 270,30-06 and a 308 except a 308 case might be a tad more accurate. all 3 cartridges will shoot just fine at 400 yards in the same rifle and equipment. good luck,Pete53

The 308 Win is a great cartridge when considering bullet weight, recoil, accuracy and big game performance. Shooting accurately at distance has nothing to do with the 308 Win, the 30-06, 270 Win or even the 6.5 Creedmoor at 400 yards. It’s more about the shooter. All of these cartridges will kill game easy at 400, 500, 600+ yards under field conditions. Proper rifle fit, great optics, especially to calculate drift and drop are what’s important. The 308 Win is great at 700 meters, far better than most shooters can ever dream to shoot.

175g berger hunting is a whale of an accurate bullet and just hammers game!

A 155 Scenar at 2900 would float my boat way beyond 400. The rest is up to the shooter.

Gee, 25 years ago the 308 WAS the BG cartridge, 400 yrds or not. Ammo for it has only gotten better, and if possible, wider spread. So what has changed with it?

Zero your rifle and go shoot 400 yards..if you can do it, so can the cartridge, and kill stuff.

Not sure where you live, but the 308 has never been “The Big Game Cartridge”anywhere, ever in the US outside a couple states in New England. Perhaps it is in a couple European and African countries and maybe Australia, but certainly not anywhere in the Western US.

But I do love the round and it does everything for me I’ve needed from a BG cartridge.

Yeah, I don't know where he got that info from either. A lot of guys hated the round, where I came from. Being die hard 30-06 and 270w fans, they just scoffed at the little wanna be. At least in the circle of guys I hung out with and just about everyone else I talked to, since I was a little kid. In my highschool days when we hunted deer, a lot of guys used 7RM, 30-06 and 270w. Girls might have used the little 308? I know you love the little 308 Brad, and I have to say in the right rifle, it is pretty sweet. Yes, I have come around to liking it as well.. I'll never give up my 30-06 or trade it in for a 308w. I have buddies that have done such wicked things. Guys that have hunted with the grand ol 30-06 since age 12. Dang traders... Guys want to talk about the legitimate NA big game cartridge, the 30-06 takes that title..

Throw a damn pack down and use it as a rest. I've shot some of my furthest bucks that way. One at 600 lr yards and the other at 648 yards. If you know how to shoot, 400 yards is indeed a "chip shot". If it's not, that means you either need to practice more, or accept your own abilities and limit your shots to what is reasonable to you. You are the one pulling the trigger and you are the one held accountable for a poor shot...

Throwing my pack down is generally the way I have always done it—including those longer chip shots. ‘Cause 300 yds and beyond a lot of things can go wrong.........

Although the last 300 yd chip shot I made was sitting on my butt on very uneven ground and holding the rifle across my knee because the corn stubble was too tall for prone.

My longest shot last year was 240 yards. I used my pack for an aid, I used my pack in the up right mode. My close range shot was 80 yards, I did this off hand. All done with a .308 Win.
Now, I'm thinking about using this same gun for Spring bear hunt. Or I could use a different .308 Just joking on another .308 My .338-06 would like to go on a Spring hunt. Or, there is my trustworthy 30-06. I don't shoot any of those larger magnums anymore.

Back to the subject at hand.
I would have no problem shooting a deer at 400 yards with my .308 Win. As long as the wind isn't crazy or any other odd stuff. I don't care for unethical shooting at game.

Take care gents.

The original question is usually asked by someone shooting a duplex reticle and guessing holdover beyond their usual shooting distance.

Ex: A buddy in Colorado was sure my 338-06 was a poor choice for shooting elk at any distance in the sagebrush flats. "you need a Magnum!"
It worked fine for both elk at 400 measured yards but I had some holdover dots and I'd proven it in practice.

He loves his familiar Duplex reticle Leupolds and "Magnum" rifles but is unwilling to try something different...

Regardless of the cartridge, do you have a way to aim consistently at various distances and have you proven it in practice?

This^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Their are more 400+ yard cartridges/rifles than shooters.

Both you guys need to get out a bit...and maybe read a bit of what`s posted on this site about that cartridge.

You might want to do a little shooting too.

Oh most definitely, I need to get out a bit, shoot a little, and see more than the 46 states and 14 foreign countries I've been to

Thanks for setting me straight with staggering 308 facts collected on the internet.

Where, pray tell, do you live, and what's your experience with the 308 that leads you to believe it was "THE Big Game Cartridge"?

Right Casey. That dude is a freaking moron anyway. If your azz is parked on the bench and you're allowed a few sighters to get things right, then it is closer to being a chip shot (as you elude to) than winging bullets at game, something he knows very little if anything about.

As long as you have a decent BC bullet and know what range you're shooting at I'd say most of the common rifle calibers are pretty long range capable.
The fun comes in when you have to judge the range without a rangefinder for whatever reason. In that case I'd happily take the flatter shooting round.

308win. shooting a 208gr. AMAX killed a big hog at 210 yards , exit wound about 3'' in diameter . Shocking information for all to see and read .

Yes they are all 400 yard cartridges but I get much more pleasure out of sneaking up and around to get as close as possible.

Where does the round reach ~ 2,000 fps/1,500 ft-lbs...?

... Because that's getin' to be the edge of the envelope for me.




GR

Figure it out and tell us.

Rhetorical question.

All my hunting rifles/loads have been calculated.




GR

No.

"Capable"
You may have asked the wrong question.

Both are easy to make hits with at 400 yards. The 270 shoots flatter. BUT............ at 400 even with a 270 you have to hold a bit high. If you have to hold 2" over a deer's back or 9" over a deer's back YOU STILL HAVE TO BE CAPABLE OF HOLDING where you need to hold.

So the capability of the cartridge is not near as important as your ability to hold and squeeze a trigger. If you can, you can. If you can't you need to get closer and that's about the shooter/hunter, not the tool he has.

This^^^. Each of the common "field positions" has a limit to the range in which it is applicable to me. I like to use a round 8" steel plate and going 5 for 5 on hits from common positions. With a LRF I know my limitations and either adjust my position or get closer. Prone off a pack works best but often is not attainable. Making clean hits on steep up/down hill shot past 200 yards takes a lot of practice for me.

JC said it best "you can't get too steady or too close"


mike r

To make quality killing hits at 400 with nearly anything you’ll need to reduce every variable possible. No particular order to my thoughts below but these are what crossed my mind to make 400 pretty easy unless you’re winded & cold etc.

Rest: good sticks, packframe etc

Optics: get something with a BDC or CDS dial at a minimum. Make sure your crosshairs are dead level.

Cartridge: 308 Win or nearly any cartridge 6mm and up with a bullet designed to expand reliably when it arrives on target - no FMJ lol but many others might interest you after some research. The high BC game doesn’t really come into play at 400 but certainly does at ranges just beyond that.

The 308 is indeed very versatile & generally very capable at the ranges you’re asking about and waaay beyond if the shooter is up to it.

Shoot some rocks & squirrels, fiddle with your preferred shooting position & scope settings. Bench practice won’t help you IMO because your body won’t be used to the different ways that it’s possible to hold a rifle comfortably while wrapped around the available terrain.

Oh and dry fire a bunch at little stickers around the house or property to gain intimate trigger control that breaks without lots of thought. Plus dryfire practice is the cheapest way to build skills very rapidly.

If you already know this stuff I mean no disrespect but wanted to share what I’d be thinking about if I were confronted with the same thought & challenge.

So for me there are two answers:

1) SHORT ANSWER yes. Yes it can

2) MUCH LONGER ANSWER, depends

I have seen Elk shot with a 30-06 at less than 100 yards and it not kill the animal. Partly because of bullet construction and partly because of shot placement.

Some, myself included, will go down the energy path and and say "for that load, what is the energy left in that projectile and what are you shooting at?" Energy and velocity but I break it down to these questions

Will I be hunting a thin skin animal?
Average range for the in the terrain?

Anything in the deer family under 200 lbs I can look at the remaining energy at range and say...yeah that will work.

Hope this helped

There is some serious misinformation in this thread. Short answer to can a 308 be used at 400 yards, yes. Long answer, it depends on a lot of factors (like others have said). While the 308 can punch paper at 1000 yards, and do it well, that's not the question. We are talking about ethically killing an animal at 400 yards. Assuming skill of the hunter and necessary accuracy and understanding of the bullet's flight path, the issue becomes the bullet, impact velocity, and game animal involved. I shoot Barnes TTSX in my 308. Based on Barnes' old documentation and hunting experience (mine and others), impact velocity should be around 2000fps for good bullet expansion, and no lower than 1800fps. 2000fps is right at 400 yards, and 1800 right at 500 yards. Personally with elk, I want at least 2000fps at impact for good expansion and penetration, so with a 308, my limit is 400 yards. Deer sized game, I'd be comfortable to 500 yards. If the bullet is lighter and faster, chances are it will expand better but at the sacrifice of penetration - not good for large game animals. Lighter, shorter bullets typically have lower BC's so wind and trajectory offsets are larger. A chronograph and shooting app. is paramount to becoming a long range shooter. Neither is a substitute for marksmanship, but both are necessary to become a good marksman at long distance.

😂

What he said. 👆🏻
I use this bullet and the ELD-Match version to shoot out to 1,600 yrds reliably and 1 mile when the stars align.
That’s on steel. On game, you need to make sure that the impact velocity is at or above about 1,700 +/- fps for the bullets mentioned above to reliably expand at whatever distance that is from your rifle.

Impact velocity and the minimum expansion velocity for the bullet used are paramount. Most folks can’t hit a bull in the butt with a banjo at 400 yards. Happy Trails

U S Military Sniper round of choice. Wudda zat tell ya?

https://youtu.be/BPk3xcBQmBs

There is “ideal” but chasing “perfect” might last forever. The 308 is one of the best balanced for most people hunting medium sized big game.

Of all aspects that go into making a killing shot at 400, the cartridge part — the 308 — won’t be lacking.

The 308 is more capable than most shooter's. Thing about long range shooting, it really is about shooting! People talk about flat trajectory, hog wash No such thing at truly long range. Oh boy my 338 whomer only drops 27" at 500 yds. You call that flat? Long range. Here's the deal, you do your part and likely most cartridge's will do their's! You fail and the cartridge is at a loss no matter what it is. Have a box of Federal 22 RF LR here. Open the flap and it say's "dangerous to 1 1/2 mi"! If it is I would think a 308 would be also. So the question is not is the 308 capable but is the shooter!

Gotta admit my Banjo ain't good for 400 yards at all but the 308 will work just fine at that range if the shooter is up to it.

400 yards is not something I’d want to shoot offhand, but 400 yards ain’t chit with today’s bullets and optics and a good rest. I mean for gods sake most of us sight our rifles in with 200 yard zeros and strive for 1” ish accuracy. I walked my father in law through killing a bull elk at 400 + a couple years ago and he’s never even shot that far in his life. All it takes is a good range finder, mild wind and a spin of the turrets. A little practice at longer distances would make this very clear for those questioning it.

I agree with 65BR. I loaded some 130TTSX to 3100fps last fall and was banging my 400 yard gong with authority. Shot a nice buck at about 90 yards.... devastating. I don’t think my 270 has much if any advantage over it with my usual load of 130 hornady SP. But if I’m in open country with the 270 I’d probably load 140 AB with a much higher BC.

The cartridge is certainly capable the question is, how about the shooter?

If you handload, book max of Ramshot Big Game behind a 165 grain Nosler partition or accubond is the same velocity as a 30-06. If your rifle likes this load, thankfully mine does, you have a go to that is definitely good to 400 yards. But are you the shooter good?