Tell me about yours, if you've had one, with details

I think you forgot to post in the Cooking section, idiot.

None, a model of simplicity.

That's not to say I haven't failed, but the bullets always killed when aimed properly.

My definition of failure is not being able to punch through a deer standing broadside. I like things to work when everything is wrong, not when everything is right.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Well I could have, but not without effort.

The concept of �bullet failure� is highly subjective. My definition is pretty simple � if the bullet fails to perform as desired it has failed.

With that definition, I�ve only had one failure, back in the early �80�s when I took my first big game animal, a spike bull elk. The bullet was a 162g Hornady BTSP InterLock launched from a 7mm Rem Mag at around 2950fps. Range to target was about 110 yards, so impact velocity was around 2750fps. The bullet struck the bull on a broadside shot, centered on a rib just behind the right front leg. It made a caliber diameter hole in the front of the rib, and a rib-width crater on the back side. It may have nicked a rib on the far side but no significant damage to the far-side ribs was evident during cleaning, skinning and quartering. The bullet was recovered between the flesh and the hide on the far side.

As far as I�m concerned the challenge to the bullet�s integrity was not that great, certainly nothing like it would be if heavy bone had been encountered. The Hornady bullet retained less than 50% of its original weight. That was the first -- and last -- standard cup-and-core bullet I�ve used on big game. The following year I switched to Grand Slams and it took me 20 years to recover one. The recovered Grand Slam was from a 5x5 bull on a shot very similar to the one on my first bull with the Hornady � broadside at about 100-110 yards. The Grand Slam was also recovered under the hide on the off side but had completely wrecked both shoulder joints. While the challenge to the integrity of the Grand Slam was much greater that for the Hornady InterLock, the Grand Slam retained over 70% of its original weight, about 50% more than the Hornady.

Some would argue that the first bull died (and in fact it dropped in its tracks although it required a finisher to hasten the inevitable), so what is the problem? I would contend the bullet failed but the bull died anyway, due in large part to careful placement of the bullet. Things might have been very different on a quartering away shot or a follow-up where a THS was the only shot offered.

Regardless, I�ve used Grand Slams and North Forks for all my game since. Fortunately I have a lifetime supply of North Forks, which are no longer available, for my .45-70 and 7mm Rem Mag and a good supply for my .300 win Mag. For the other rifles I�ll be focusing my attention on the TTSX.

IVE seen several over the years and Id be the first to point out MOST were the result of guys sellecting the WRONG bullet for the application. the most memoriable was a serria 150 grain 30 cal

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=233669
a buddy loaded these to max velocity in his 300 wby, he shot a cow elk at about 70 yards which fell but got up and started to hobble off as we approached, a second shot dropped her, the first bullet had turned the lower near side leg/shoulder to glitter and hamburger without providing full penetration, the second shot nearly cut her in 1/2 with the internal damage, he swapped to 190 hornadys and has been pleased with the results ever since

I dont think I have ever had a bullet failure but I have had bullet letdowns.

One year I used partitions in my 35whelen. shot a blackie at about 200yards and the it detonated in the bear. grant it it killed it but I like penetration (IMO). 2 holes bleed better than one thing. it ran off and I found it dead against a tree.

So yeah it killed the bear just not what I was looking for.

did the bullet fail? nope, I just had different expectations.

I'm inclined to say that a bullet failure on the initial shot has more to do with the shooter than anything else. Some exceptions may be allowed. The real test of a bullet (and its selector) comes on necessary (real or perceived) subsequent shots when things are "happening" and less than ideal circumstances exist. I have had few bullet issues that I could not have affected had I done some things differently. Being ignorant is not a very good excuse.

I used to hunt whitetails in GA with a guy who was a SWAT sniper and had access to all the Federal Premium match ammo for his .308 that he wanted. I think that ammo had 190 grain Sierra match bullets if I remember correctly.

The guy was an awesome rifle shot but wounded and lost more deer than anyone I ever saw until I convinced him to use a hunting bullet instead of a match bullet.

Shooter induced bullet failure in this case.

lodgepole, you want to borrow a pair of my asbestos underwear? All washed and cleaned up. Boy, they will flame you for implying match bullets can't kill deer!

My one and only bullet failure was a Combined Technologies Ballistic Silvertip. 140 grain, 7 Rem. Mag. It didn't fail to kill the deer, as it was down in about 20 yards. The problem was, the entire front half was nuked. I have never seen such a God AWFUL mess. I was able to salvage the hind quarters. Inner and outer loins were gone, due to bloodshot, guts and frag.

Shot (15 yards) went in from a high angle, just in front of the top point of the shoulder and nuked in the chest cavity, sending funk out of the entry hole and of course, no exit. "At what point of the deer's death did the bullet fail" you ask? "When most of the meat was wasted", I answer.

Never again will I use a grenade on a game animal. X's and TSX's have been doing a fine job since I stopped using varmint boolits in faster calibers, on game I intend to eat. I like the freedom to take close or far shots at various angles in a wide range of velocities. Barnes has allowed me to do that, much thanks to this site...

A .338 WM NP 210 blew up on the shoulder blade of a moose at about 100 yards, knocking him down.

The second one, one handed, up his nostrils at about 10 feet (less off the muzzle) worked just fine! Yeah, I John Wayned him on instinct.

Shall we next address bladder failure? First and last use of NP 210 !

Meat damage can be avoided by not shooting a animal where there is meat....

Had I done what you did, I believe I'd have to be taking a portion, if not all, of the blame for that "failure." Shooting any animal that you hope to eat with a very high speed bullet, and especially one which expands like the Nosler, Hornady, Speer, etc do in that weight, is not a reasonable use in my book. Based on what I have seen from even the smaller cased 7mm-08, I won't even use the 139 Interlocked on a shoulder again if I can help it. (They do work great when they go just a bit further back and lower though. So do the BTs.)

I had a .30 cal 200 GR NP hit a Buffalo at 50 yards and break the sholder but didn't make it to the lungs. Once the animal was full of adrenilin, it took 3 more shots to kill it. The first bullet was recovered and had squirted lead out of both ends so it weighed about 60 Gr on recovery. I'm not happy about that bullet performance but I did recover my once in a lifetime Utah Buff. I've shot Barnes ever sence with great results.

Not a failure, but definitely not a bullet I want coming even remotely close to any part of the animal I intend to eat...150gr BT 7mmRM, 230 yards. This is one of many exit wounds that I saw from this bullet/rifle combo. So much for the cape...
BTW, this was a clients animal, I shoot TSX's

BWalker
There are plenty of times when shooting them in the meat is a good idea... And with the X family eating right up to the hole is usually not a problem. The nature of the X blodshot meat versus a C&C is very different.

Give me a shoulder shot everytime.

The only deer I shot through the shoulder was with a 180-gn Accubond out of a 30-06. It broke the shoulder bone going in. Meat damage/bloodshot was very minimal, just some of the under-the-hide stuff that you can scrape off with a knife. However, I have avoided shooting the shoulder in general and will continue to do so whenever possible.

I got an ENTRANCE wound on a deer's neck, about like the one in Jordan's picture above, with a Ballistic Tip from a 7mm-08.

-jeff

Never had bullet failure.......but have had shooter failure a time or 2....

LOL...maybe I better.

My pal did actually kill deer with those bullets, but sometimes we just couldnt find deer he hit with them, and I'm sure he hit them in the right place. This guy could really shoot.

I dont know if those match bullets were punching little holes and not expanding or if they were making craters and not getting inside. The type, amount, and dispersion pattern of blood wasnt consistent enough to tell.

I agree 100%. I have corrected my error in judgement and started using a bullet that gives me more options. It was sold as being an acceptable hunting bullet. I've learned a LOT since then.

Maybe there are, but then dont gripe about meat damage when you take such a shot.
As for eating up to the hole. From my own expiereance with TSX's and from the pictures I have seen on this site I would say thats a bunch of crap. Unless you like grinding bloodshot meat into burger, which I dont.
Of course I am of the point of view that a rapidly expanding bullet like a Gameking or a BT placed behind, but tight to the shoulder is about ideal. At least thats been my expierance. And no, I have never had a bullet failure.

I like a rapid expander with a little bit of insurance policy thrown in... Accubond.

-jeff

If what hear is true the AB is BT with bonding.
The new BT's are pretty tough. At least the 7MM and 30 cal ones I have shot have been.
Several years back I shot a Mule Deer in MT using a .280 remington with a 140 gr Ballistic Silver Tip AKA BT hand loaded to 3100fps. The deer was quartering away at 200 yards. The bullets entered just in fron of the rear leg and was found just under the skin of the brisket. Everything in between was a complete mess and I didnt lose any meat.
I shot a deer his year with a 200gr AB from a 300 win mag, quarter inch hole at the entrance and a the same at the exit with the clock work destroyed. I think a like weight BT would have done about the same thing.

BWalker
I have the luxury of not having to guess what X billet holes look like and what the meat around the hole is like. I also have the same level of knowledge about a number of C&C bullets. If you do not know the difference you should check it out some time. It will impress, I bet.

I was not griping about anything.

I have used a significant number of C&C bullets and am unimoressed with the vast majority of them. Partitions and Accubonds are not bullets I consider close to premium. My experience with the 30 cal. 180gr Sierra Pro-Hunter has been far better than the Partition and I have grassed quite a few with each...

Would love to post a picture of my recovered X bullet, but I have not found it yet...
art

Your making the assumption that I have never shot anything with a TSX or X.
I have shot several. And in fact shot a deer this past season with a TSX. I even recovered it.

100gr TSX fired out of a 25-06 AI. Impact velocity 3400+ fps.

I suppose if I pushed TSXs that fast I would have a chance of finding them... There is nothing I would load that hot (just me, not suggesting you change). But again, I am basing it on more than a few animals recovered and less than one bullet recovered.

But that begs the question of what the meat around your TSX bulletholes looks like. I suppose the TSX pushed as fast as you push them will be inclined to ruin more meat than a sane speed, but I would still expect a difference.
art

Art, I've recovered 3 TSX's from game one came from a Sika deer in TX that traveled the length of the body and came to rest on the hide in the rump, the other two where in Africa. All the rest went right on through. i have yet to recover an original X from anything. It's just my observation, i think the TSX lends itself to being better at staying in the meat at awkward angles. I shall continue my tests until i have come to a solid conclusion...

You back to hoof shooting again..

I've only found it necessary to shoot "meat" on 1/16th of the deer I've killed <g>. Exactly 1/16th.

I would shoot the shoulder on an elk, though, in rough terrain especially. Much more meat for one thing, so a losing 5 lbs of meat is not a crises. And then the dang things like to go spelunking, if you let them, when shot.

Anyway without big bears to worry about I am happy with my Accubonds and Partitions and Interlocks. They work and work well; all I've seen them do is WORK on deer and elk. I may use a copper bullet when they get them sorted out, finalize a design, or the state legislature forces me to... but there's no emergency here requiring it.

-jeff

I've only found it necessary to shoot "meat" on 1/16th of the deer I've killed <g>. Exactly 1/16th.
So on that tiny piece of information you are willing to make up your mind???

I would shoot the shoulder on an elk, though, in rough terrain especially. Much more meat for one thing, so a losing 5 lbs of meat is not a crises. And then the dang things like to go spelunking, if you let them, when shot.
So which is it? Do you fail to see the obvious advantages in shooting meat? Or don't you?

Anyway without big bears to worry about I am happy with my Accubonds and Partitions and Interlocks. They work and work well; all I've seen them do is WORK on deer and elk.
All you have seen them do is work... You really want to trust one on an elk shoulder at the edge of the World? Lots more reasons than bears to want heavy units anchored atop a ridge... You seem to be saying you feel strongly both ways.

Wow! Cool colors, Art. I cain't hardly compete with that!

In order of their appearance... yeah, I am willing to draw some conclusions from 16 deer, killed with a half dozen different calibers and at least that many different bullets. I will temper that by saying that I reserve the right to refine my conclusions as I kill more critters. However, nothing I've seen so far has made me feel that I need an all-copper, super-penetrator on deer. Nothing!

Point number two. Do I see the advantages of shooting meat. Answer: it's more nuanced and subtle than that, Art. Am I anchoring an elk, or swatting a 90-lb blacktail with my .358? As I said, I would shoot an elk through the shoulder for several reasons- but that hardly requires an all-copper super-penetrator.

And, there are choices a guy can make that alleviate the need to shoot meat- at least the deer I hunt, where I hunt them. YMMV. I can shoot them, properly, with a cup and core bullet from my .358, and there's simply no need to shoot meat, and there's CERTAINLY no need for an all-copper, super-penetrator. They are goin' DOWN with an old school cup and core bullet.

Point number three, yes I would shoot a bull elk through the shoulder with a Partition or Accubond- in an appropriate caliber. Again, this is not some kind of game where a person cannot tilt their choices this way, or that way, right? For instance, make me hunt elk with a 7mm-08 and I might well use a TSX. But you can't make me do that! I've now helped take apart two elk killed with a single 225-gn Accubond from a .338 Win Mag and I assure you, those bullets ROCK on elk- in that caliber.



-jeff

I was thinking it seems rather strange that you could shoot many animals without recovering an X. Then I realized that I have shot as many, if not more, caribou with the 6mm Sierra Pro-hunter SMP and only recovered a single one, yet I have found at least three of my Xs in them in equal or larger calibers. Haven't found many Interlockeds in 'bou either. I guess it is no surprise that moose have stopped several solid coppers for me as well.

I wonder if some bullet failures might be linked to lite for caliber bullets launched at high velocity towards close targets?

I think that has a lot of merit, though the "Light for caliber" cup & core boolits appear to be a bit heavier than one would expect. I'll use my 7 Rem. Mag. as an example. The 140 grain Ballistic Silvertip that nuked for me at close range, must have been too light for caliber (For THAT boolit). The 120 and 140 TSX's have done a fine job at higher speeds and the same close (AND longer) ranges.

Bottom line for me is, I want to be 100% confident with a shot on game from 10 yards to as far as I can make a clean shot, without needing to worry about a detonation and the mess that it makes. Since I have hundreds of 30 cal. 180 grain Ballistic Tips, I'll probably try them out at magnum velocities, as by many accounts they have a heavier jacket and do hold together well. As for lighter weights in smaller calibers. Have fun. Been there, done that. No thanks...

I've had pass throughs and slugs that explosively turned into sand never making it to the offside body wall. Never had one fail though. A well placed lugnut at 1200 fps should do the job on all north American game. 1Minute

Jimmy, in my testing of the .257 100g TSX and the 115g TSX, the 100g actually outpenetrated the 115g in the test media that I used(journals, BTT). The 100g bullets were going 3400 fps at muzzle whereas the 115g were "only" going 2950fps at muzzle. Both were shot at 100 yards. The 115g had larger frontal areas which I think decreased the penetration, whereas the 100g bullets lost a petal or two and had a smaller frontal area.

Testing media isnt an animal so take those results however you which.

I dunno. I have seen hogs and deer shot with varmit bullets out of hot .22 caliber rounds and they work pretty good if placed correctly.

Cant you make a hoof soap to go with your deer ribs? Should be about as edible as the ribs..

Having seen what bullets that "explosively turned into sand" can do -- or rather fail to do -- I'll take a well-placed lug nut at 1200fps instead. Every time.

Bullet weight has less to do with it than does bullet construction. A Barnes .224" 45g Solid isn't going to come apart on game at any velocity you can reach with a sporting arm.

My preference is to be able to shoot with confidence from muzzle-contact distances to as far as I am able. Standard cup-and-core bullets are OK at low velocities but I start to get nervous when potential impact (and hence muzzle) velocities get above 2600fps.

(OK, I've never shot anything at muzzle contact distances, but I have passed on a couple shots measuring about five feet and have taken shots at 10.)

I would say, though, that ignorance is a bigger factor in most bullet failures that are the hunting bullets we have available. Well, ignorance and lack of performance on the part of the user. There are rules and some bullet designs really demand attention to them. (Even with Barnes bullets for example, there are people who have used "heavy" 200 grain bullets- and they are heavy in the 30 calibers- who assume that the same bullet weight is also heavy and will perform equally well in the 35 calibers. And with an X design, you may get by with many of the same things, but that 35 will not keep up with the 30 caliber when things get really tough. And if you substitute C&C bullets, then the difference becomes even more obvious, yet there are many people who seem to think that bullet mass alone, whether 200, 300 grains, or whatever, are all about the same. Simple, observable physics rules apply and the responsibility is on the user to know what those rules are and what they mean.

For example, to use that Barnes solid as an example, while most people would acknowledge, or at least assume, that that bullet will not come apart, some may also make the assumption that it will penetrate any and everything and might place one in some ridiculous portion of an animal believing that it will, with certainty, reach a more desireable part of the animal deeper than it has momentum for.

I believe it is incumbent upon the shooter to know, within reason, what a bullet will do at virtually any reasonable distance they might use it. And further, knowing what their chosen bullet will or will not do, it is their responsibility to place that bullet in such a way as to not cause failure.

Some might say that a bullet should be able to "do it all" from any angle on a chosen animal and at any distance or the bullet is a questionable one. That is an ideal, not reality, though there are some bullets which are closer to that ideal than others. When it all boils down though, the final responsibility in most cases still falls on the shoulders of "him who pulls the trigger."

Mr. Klikitarik;
That sir was in my opinion a very fine set of thoughts on the subject.

Well done!

Regards,
Dwayne

Well, actually... I ate water buffalo hoof one time. Emphasis on one. Dim light in a nice restaurant... in Pakistan. It was sort of a high class buffet and I thought those were big chunks of beef in gravy. That was one time my knowledge of critter anatomy let me down. I'd have been better off not to know. They weren't that bad, strings of meat between gristle and jell, hard shells removed of course.

Trouble with us long time posters is repeating tales and I know this is a repeat because I recall Sitka having snide comments on my food proclivities. How do you spell gourmand?

And then there was the 4x4 mule buck going steep up the other wall of a ravine and my partner beside me on the rim who had raised his 30-30 sights as high as they would go for a long shot earlier and not reset them. He aimed at the buck's neck behind the head and hit it's hoof extended out in front as it ran. Fodder for razzing to this day.

More on topic of terminal bullet performance, he was shooting the first plastic tipped bullets I've seen, Sabre tips in Canada years ago. His second shot at that buck slid down the offside withers at a flat angle and took a shovel scoop of hide off the critter and barely cut enough muscle for it to bleed. One hole ten inches across was entry and exit. Must have had violent expansion as it stayed in the flat layer of hide for its full passage through the buck. Huge surface wound with almost no damage to the deer. Bits of plastic bullet tip scattered through the wound. We managed to whittle that buck down and examined the hits.

I remember the hoof story... Did you know Neatsfoot oil is synovial fluid from bovine hooves? True, that is. Suppose the stuff made it slickery going down...

Yikes, not what I'd want either.

VERY well said!

Another stunning contribution..................waste of skin.

"Quick reply often utilized"

I believe that!! Steelhead...you are a loser....plain and simple.....you don't even take the time to read the question before you fire off your half-witted answer.

The only thing worse than NO replies, is a reply from you, because it will make the younger members feel bad for asking, and leave the older members scratching their heads thinking "What the F6CK is wrong with this guy??"

You are an anomaly. For some reason, you see the whole world as an enemy, and as such, stike out at everyone around you. Instead of offering real-life experience....(have any??) you simply pick on the persons' spelling, or make some crass comment. A sad spoecimen indeed.

My father told me everyone has value....you just have to find it.

I've looked and looked in you...........and fear you have proven my father wrong.

Well, you've finally gotten a firm taken on your own situation. Good to see somethings do sink in after all.....

BTW - I'm curious as to what answers you've gotten to the same question posted in the cooking section. Dare I look?

My father told me that everyone had value also, I just forgot how much he said he paid for your .........

Sorry for the late reply, just got back from Vacation. Your mom says hi.

Since when are N/P not suitable for north american game???
Makes me shake my head

I do however enjoy reading these discussions but find it really hard to believe that elk, bear, and moose wear body armour that would stop a N/P from penetrating from 338mag velocities even through bone at common sense ranges.

Put your bullets in the boiler room and start sharpening your knives.

I like the idea of the TSX bullet but shoot Accubonds because they are cheaper and like the partition will kill any north american big game animal reliably and consistently.

That i believe my friends is a proven fact!

I choose the Accubond over the TSX because I think it's a better bullet!

Figured you would like her after she had the sex change, hope you choked.

I�ve gone to the stouter bullets-tsx or ttsx- for my hunting today. It just makes sense with better penetration they should be superior.

However, it hard for me believe those core-loks of the past that killed so many deer for me, family and friends failed. People it is deer most of us are talking about here.

Since the original post is kind of general in its coverage question, I did have a .22lr fail on groundhogs a couple times. Hit one square in the neck at about 30yds from my trusty.....oh never mind

Battue

Hmmmmm... Did that "Bou" move out of his tracks?
I think not.
"So much for the cape..."????
JHFC.. what more do you want?

Load a Barnes, I'm sure it will kill em deaderbedder with less "cape" damage.

Only bullet failureI have ever had was with Hornady 154 gr 7mm. Blew up on entry on antelope and whitetails. Don't use Hornady any more at all but that is a longer story.

Not really a bullet failure but, I had a Young hunter visit My camp one day. Said that he had missed a deer running across a field. Said that the deer had outrun the bullet. He was shooting a 270. I've always thought this to be quite funny.

This is hilarious.........Scott you are the king of combacks.
BTW I hope he choked on it too.

Probably choked on his own first.

Battue

Definitely didn't go anywhere in too much of a hurry.

Even though the cape was "slightly damaged"...it's amazing the work that some taxidermists can do.

BTW, I shoot TSX/TTSX in all my hunting rifles.