Many of you that accused me for being wrong, stupid, uninformed, etc. can now read the writing for yourself:



Lead is being legislated for banning as we speak.

HERE IS THE FINAL NAIL IN THE COFFIN FOR LEAD BULLETS:

Bald Eagles are Dying from Lead Bullet Fragments In Carcasses



I've made the switch to copper and all I can say is I hope that many of you do so too for our families, children, animals, EAGLES and CONDORS...

Troll candy.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/07/23/tech/main564651.shtml

We've got bald eagles all along the Columbia River every fall & winter... Bunches of 'em.

When I was a kid, they were few and far between. Now I see 'em almost every time I go fishing.

You need to check the sources out there; for example this article from NSSF:

http://www.nssf.org/news/PR_idx.cfm...nid=f030907e441d9747de8825d16663e3f7d507


To: ALL MEDIA
For immediate release

November 7, 2008

For more information contact:

Ted Novin
203-426-1320

Firearms Industry Statement on Results of
CDC Blood Lead Levels in Hunters Study

NEWTOWN, Conn. -- The National Shooting Sports Foundation (NSSF) -- the trade association for the firearms, ammunition, hunting and shooting sports industry -- issued the following statement in response to study results from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), released by the North Dakota Department of Health, showing no evidence that lead or "traditional" ammunition pose any health risk to those who consume harvested game meat.
<snip>

they should ban you. ive never seen someone so annoying in my life. how many threads are you going to start? maybe find another hobby?

As noted in a media advisory released by the North Dakota Department of Health, the highest lead level reading of an adult study participant was still below the CDC accepted lead level threshold for that of a child, and significantly lower than the CDC accepted lead level threshold for that of an adult. Furthermore, during a tele-press conference hosted by the ND Department of Health, officials stated they could not verify whether this adult even consumed game harvested with traditional ammunition. Correspondingly, the study only showed an insignificant 0.3 micrograms per deciliter difference between participants who ate wild game harvested with traditional ammunition and non-hunters in the control group.

Let's see...CDC says it's not a problem...a veterinarian and a graduate student at a raptor center say it is...hmmm...who should I believe?

Oh...let me see...no one I have ever heard of who eats game meat has ever had a problem with elevated lead levels -- and all our children have been tested.

So...hmmm...I'm still not convinced.

Then there is that pious attitude...tells me that the proponent is just too full of himself to be credible. Comes on way too much like Al Gore to be believed.

Just my take on it.

Dennis

geezus H, methinks that brooksrange suffers from wilderness weariness. Ie, that he needs to get laid.
Just me tho, Bear in Fairbanks

I was hoping he hadn't reproduced...

Dennis

I was very gratious in acknowledging your post on the other thread. That wasn't nice and I deserve but don't expect an apology.

While I'm thick-skinned and can take a lot of ribbing, this is different. I've seen a total lack of maturity, been denegrated, had very negative comments and attacks directed at me and even had someone suggest that I commit suicide. I think that this is totally uncalled for.

I would have much preferred a healthy debate, maybe a few fun jokes and a good discussion on the facts or lack thereof of the key studies to date. I do have a sense of humor and sometimes joke about Accubombs vs TSX etc. but this is way different in terms of peoples reaction to these studies and the article.

It seems akin to burning me at the stake just because I am bringing up subject matter that doesn't jive with many peoples beliefs (at the moment) about lead bullets. Whatever you may think, lead bullets have been demonstrated to at least have a small but real toxic impact on wildlife, humans and the environment versus other alternatives. You may use what you want, but I have voted for change and currently use the TSX or TTSX.

Lead bullets are going away and most manufacturers are trying to catch up to the science and facts to do what is responsible and what consumer trends are indicating. They are also adpating because there is real evidence and wildlife departments and state governments are leading change for more environmentally friendly bullets. Did steel shot and their substitutes stop waterfowl hunting? No, not at all. I suggest that we all become more responsible for our actions. Others feel my way and have privately PM'd me to thank me. I hope that some of them are allowed to share their views without the harrassment and crap that I've had to deal with.

Anyways, you'll not hear from me for a while, life is too short- I'm going hunting!!

I do not believe I have ever responded to Mr. Brooksrange before. They do all seem to have a common thread and feeling about them.

I have seen vary similar after parades, ROAD APPLES. Give it a break Mr. Roadapples/Mr. Brooksrange, please find another subject.

For instance how you no longer hunt with firearms (if you ever did) and have switched over to Non-toxic bird watching.

Starting a thread with "I TOLD YOU SO I TOLD YOU SO" probably isn't the way to get a "Healthy debate" going, even on the playground.....

Brooks,

We all have access to the information on the web and being sportsmen most of already have researched things.

So either your very, very nieve or your have an agenda.

I'm guessing the latter -


Given the board is about hunting your actions are less than admirable outside of your own context (box).

So - yes brooksrange - your being being a pain, your treating others like they are stupid, and pissing them off knowingly.

So unless your one brick light of a load, or 12 years old stop playing an innocent hero and be upfront about your agenda.

The guy is a shill. Don't bother answering him.

+1......Not the best way of doing things.

WOW! the ignore feature works so wonderfully

pahick,

I have used the "ignore" on only a couple folks. This guy is getting close.

I did put him on ignore -

It's like getting a nice thanksgiving present

Thats it, Im going to stop eating eagle.

I never cared for eagle. Tastes too much like spotted owl.

From now on its only wolf and humpback for me.

What is needed with this study is the information on WHERE the hunters and non-hunters in the study came from.

I'd be willing to bet that rural folk a) are more likely to hunt and b) have lower lead levels due to their rural environment.

I've seen bald eagles up where I hunt but I have never seen one feeding on a gut pile. Just saying.

Brooksrange, what are you going hunting for? How long will you be gone? When you get back, let us know how your hunting trip went, and while you're at it, check into the mercury levels that occur naturally in commercially harvested fish. When you get that one figured out for us, then we can get back to the lead bullet topic. Tim

I have followed this thread for awhile and I was just wondering if anyone here knows where this brooksrange guy is from or if someone is going to call him out. Wonder if he has any ties to barnes products. Sure seems to like to copper products, as do I but this is riduculous. HAPPY HUNTING

There is a tendency to swallow whole any "scientifc" report from anywhere. Often when enough of these are done they turn out to be contradictory, and the results of many turn out to be obviously bought and paid for.

The so-called "study" that started all this debate was initiated by a doctor with obvious anti-hunting prejudices. Some of the frozen packages of ground meat he submitted had already been opened.

I have read a lot of the lead studies, including the one done near Jackson Hole, Wyoming on ravens, and while there does seem to be an elevated lead level in some scavenger's blood around hunting season, it drops afterward. Whether or not this constant up and down has a long-term effect nobody seems to know. I also tend to distrust any study involving hunting done anywhere in the California university system--where many of the condor studies were done.

There is no doubt that lead poisoning from projectiles has affected some wildlife over the decades, but only where the shooting is extremely concentrated, as it was on a few duck marshes before non-toxic shot--or with the ravens on the elk range near Jackson.

My wife and I eat game meat (mostly taken with lead-core bullets and lead-alloy shot, though not always) except when dining out now and then. We butcher our own animals, and have both had our blood tested in the past year or so during routine medical examinations, and lead didn't show in either result.

I am not dismissing the possibility of lead poisoning by any means, but to suddenly proclaim it a major factor because of a few so-called studies is indeed rather alarmist. I am going to wait for more extensive and, uh, balanced data.
_________________________
JB

"New opinions are always suspect, and usually opposed, without any other reason but because they are not already common." -John Locke

Well said.

Here is the equation:
EPA + Enviro wackos + Obama = Total lead ban
It isn't going to matter how valid or scientific the lead study was. There is enough data no matter how bogus to justify a lead ban. Get mentally prepared, its going to happen.
If the enviro wackos can repeatedly shut down multi million dollar natural resource drilling, a lead ban will be no contest.

Brooksrange: Oh boy!
I predicted this many months ago when I heard what the Californicaters were doing out there in northern California!
I hoped it would NOT spread - but unfortunately, it has!
Sheesh!
It seems like the "anti's" will try any ruse as long as it interferes with or makes more difficult and/or expensive to Hunt and shoot!
Dim future indeed!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

I don't know "brooksrange", nor do I particularly want to. But I do know Randy Brooks, and I can guarantee you this guy has no connection with Barnes, nor would Randy, Coni and Jessica tolerate it if he/she tried to claim or establish one. They still make lead core bullets (Barnes Originals) and have no plans to stop making them. Nor do they support the lead ban in California.

You might contemplate contacting Barnes, or at least reading Randy's comments on the issue on their website, before you insinuate that they are somehow involved in or supporting junk sscience designed to lead to lead bans.

Dennis

not insinuating just wondering, not meaning to offend anyone. HAPPY HUNTING

So we don't have condors?
So what?
We don't have mammoths or sabertooths anymore, nor do I miss them.
Eagles are doing just fine thank you, I see them daily.
Get a life brooks!

Just because the messenger has little tact and failed to read "How to win friends and influence neighbors" doesn't neccessarily mean he is wrong.

I think the jury is still out, but definately bears more scrutiny. As I am a veterinarian, I will give the vets in the story from the Minnesota Vet school a call and see if the info is accurate.

If the story is accurate, and I say if because I don't believe anything on the internet unless it can be backed up, then I think we have to at least consider rethinking using lead bullets. 100 sick birds with 20% death rate sounds like something to be concerned about to me. Doesn't matter if there are plenty of eagles flying around, if it is a problem, it is a problem.

And if 100-125 are presented for treatment every year, then there are untold numbers of unseen, unreported, unpresented eagles with the same problem.

So, if this story holds up, you have to take one of two options. Either you say: "so what, I don't care if a hundred or so eagles die as long as there are some left".

Or you have to say: "Maybe we need to take a closer, reasoned look at this and see if there are options that will be acceptable"

That said, I will be hunting next weekend for whitetail here in Texas with Remington core-lokts. Maybe I can poison the wild hogs that clean up the gut pile!

I will report back after I visit with the vets at the University of Minn.

I figured it out. Brooksrange owns stock in Barnes and has a vested interest in seeing lead banned from bullets.

Brooksrange, you are not alone in your concern about lead fragments in wild game. I switched over to copper this season after my 2 year old showed elevated lead levels in his blood. My question to the skeptics, why not take extra care with our kids? Plenty of guys shoot copper because it performs better. Great. I shoot it because it performs better and guarantees no lead in my boy's dinner (I also shoot bismuth shot). What I find really interesting is the true antis (anti-environment) always accuse people who raise concerns about lead bullets of shilling for environmental organizations, but who has the real vested interest in keeping lead on the menu? Yep, the gun industry.

Just a question plattski.. Did you think to investigate the excellent possibility that the elevated lead level was from any other source or sources????? OR did you automatically presume it was from bullet frag?? Ingestion takes a pretty fair quantity to elevate blood levels. Lead does NOT break down easily in frag state or chunks. POWDERED lead or lead fumes in an inclosed area are a different story. Aspirating nearly anything brings almost instant and higher results. I have found musket balls from the French and Indian Wars that are intact. I have to conclude that lead doesn't dissove very easliy and the soil up here is noted for dissolving iron and steel in pretty short order comparatively fast. Maybe you should not rule out that your son's elevated levels had OTHER origins.

my bet is that Plattski's 2 year old had lead poisening from another source. Furthermore I would be willing to listen to an objective study done by non partisan scientist (if you could find such a thing). My uncles, brother, friends, have hunted deer with lead bullets all of our lives. We don't keep shoulders shot with lead bullets, but eat the rest. My IQ is the same as it was in high school, the same as Obama's by the way, and yet I did not go to Harvard or Yale! People with an agenda will lie, steal, cheat, poisen and even kill another human to get their way. Hold on to your hats people, this is the latest scheme to elevate the expense of hunting.

I would agree that the most likely source of lead in my youngster was not bullets but old lead paint in my house, which we either removed or painted over. Anyone recall why lead was banned from paint? How about gasoline?? Were any of you get outraged at either of those bans? No, and we still have paint and gas, because industry came up with perfectly good alternatives after they gave up fighting the change. Sounds like the gun industry right now. Anyway, when we realized our kid had too much lead in his blood we decided to do everything we could to eliminate it from his environment and that included lead bullet fragments. I've seen the various fragmentation studies - are you saying bullets don't fragment, or that no lead fragments remain in wild game meat? I disagree with some of you who say that a couple of little lead fragments are okay for kids to eat. So solving the problem was easy, I just changed bullets. I don't see it as a dark conspiracy to take my guns, just a simple change in my consumer behavior. It costs a little bit more, not much, but I'm really pleased with copper bullet performance on 1 elk, 3 antelope, 3 deer. I eat a lot of game but I don't shoot a lot of bullets at them so the added cost is nominal. I still reload lead for practice shooting at the range, just no more for my food. What is the big problem? I'm not saying you all have to change over. Go ahead and eat lead, it doesn't bother me. But if the results come back that lead is poisoning our wildlife I'll be comfortable with no more lead in hunting ammunition. I like hunting but I could care less what my bullets are made out of as long as they work. Copper is an excellent material and lead is just a habit,. I don't share the concern that taking the lead out of bullets is part of a plan to take away our firearms. The thing I find curious is how angry some of you seem toward anyone who even raises a question about lead in bullets. Take your own advice and calm down, follow the research and keep and open mind.

"Take your own advice and calm down, follow the research and keep and open mind."

Good advice for both sides

You can keep your mind as open as you want. The EPA and their ilk have a lead ban in their agenda. It may take a few years, there may be a sunset clause but it will happen. They will pick away at all things involved with hunting and the Second Amendment.

I pretty much shoot nothing but copper at big game, but I shoot lead at birds; no worries there.

As said, elemental lead doesn't absorb well in the gut, lead oxide does. Remember, the problem with ducks, supposedly, was the fact that the gizzard ground the pellets up. Not quite applicable to people eating big game, now, is it? FWIW, Dutch.

plattski,

Just curious: Do you butcher your own game or take it to a commercial operation?

When I'm rich I'll shoot gold bullets. If I start doing that I might care about recovering them once in a while.

plattski, lead in paint was in particulate form lead in gasoline was aspirated when the fuel burn vaporized it. I believe I touched on that. Apples and oranges opposed to lead frag.

you certainly may be right. But then again, the ban on lead shot was going to end duck and goose hunting...........

Again, I am hunting with lead bullets for deer next weekend, so I have a wait and see attitude.

Actually, maybe this lead free scare is being put up by the guys who make lead bullets! I know in my area, guns and ammo are flying off the shelf. They can't keep them in stock. Obama fall out. LOL

Don't forget, besides lead other metals, too, can be toxic: iron, zinc, copper. (And FWIW, I can use shill tactics too- copper has even been linked to homosexual tendencies...FWIW...you can find that on the 'web too if you are so inclined, again, FWIW. )

Mule Deer, I do butcher my own game. Not that I'm particularly good at it but I like handling the whole process and over the years I have found quite a few lead fragments one place or another, some pretty large.

I see the article in question was published in the Minneapolis Star-Tribune, a questionable source. The Star-Tribune is editorially at least as liberal as the New York Times and, being regional, receives less scrutiny. By my unscientific observation bald eagles are flourishing in South Dakota, as are birds of prey in general.

These are the facts as I see them. In my native Mo., from my birth until I was 21 years old, I had seen two bald eagles. I was a ranch born kid and spent all my time outdoors. Now I see somewhere between 10 and twenty a year. The eagles are doing fine, don't penalize us to solve a problem that doesn't exist. We also now have no polar bear hunting because of global warming alarmists even though we are pretty sure there are more polar bears than thirty years ago, and the warming has stopped. Meanwhile, the natives have no reason to protect polar bears as they have no chance of income resulting from hunting. I also guarantee that I don't eat any lead fragments in deer meat,as I stay the hell away from bloodshot areas, not any good meat there anyway.

plattski,

Thanks for the info. I am doing an informal "study" on how much of the problem of lead ingestion is due to most people taking their game animals to commercial processor. These usually aren't too picky about trimming, and often toss all the deer parts together when grinding burger.

We do our own game as well, and have found some bullet chunks over the years. Or, rather, we have done all but two of our deer. One year when my wife was writing a venison cookbook, we took two mule deer to different local processors that other people recommended, just to see what would result.

A few months later I was eating a round steak from the buck I'd killed and bit down on an expanded 140-grain 7mm Nosler Partition. I had shot the deer in the front of the chest while the deer faced me, and looked for the expanded bullet while field-dressing, but never found it. The processor never noticed it either. At least we knew that that steak was from my deer. Other packages included bits of sagebrush--and there was no sagebrush where I killed him.

I also wanted to point out that the newspaper story that started this thread is NOT a "study." Even if very well-reported (which is something I would question with any newspaper story), the so-called data is anecdotal, which means zip. Now, if somebody initiates a study, with some scientific method behind it, that would be another thing. But all we have now is so-and-so says such-and-such, which ain't data. I was a science major in college (aquatic biology) and worked on a real study for the Montana fisheries department. This ain't one.

Yessir...it's not even good "junk science", if there is such a thing. It has no pretense of scientific method. I'm waiting for someone too produce a series of credible, peer-reviewed replicable studies. Until I see them, it's all just opinion.

By the way, for people who keep bringing this up -- and I know you know this, John -- Barnes is family-owned, so no one owns stock in the company. And Randy is very opposed to any lead bullet ban, particularly one based on very questionable information. So please, everyone -- quit trying to drag Barnes into this equation -- because they aren't part of it. And I have no financial or other connection to them either -- I just know the Brooks' well enough to know that they aren't playing this game.

Dennis

Dennis,

Good post. None of the Barnes people have ANYTHING to do with this propaganda.

Let me also emphasize that I am open to real data on all this. What reasonable person wouldn't be? But we do not have enough yet.

I believe the group behind the lead bullet issue is the Peregrine Fund. Unfortunately, they have influence and ties to enough academics to generate credible studies with whatever results they want.

As I posted before, the Minnesota DNR did a lead fragmentation test this summer on some deer and quite a few sheep. Here again is the link to the 2 page summary or the 13 page study.
www.dnr.state.mn.us.hunting/lead/index/html

Tried the link, both clicking on it and then typing the whole thing out. Could not get anything. Will try again.

http://www.dnr.state.mn.us./hunting/lead/index.html

Savage99,
Ok thanks, I didn't think that html was needed. Anyway, fellows, its NOT going to matter how valid a "study" is. If it fits their agenda, they are going to legitimize it. WE may call it flawed, but they will applaud it!
They already are doing this in the "man made global warming" arena. Numerous documented flawed computer models, duplicate data, anectodal statements and cherry picking data has gone a long way in shaping our "going green" lunacy.
Added to this is a bonus of denying a bullet style to hunters.
If this gets momentum in the right areas, look out!

Thanks. That worked.

One question that occurred to me (and I read the long version) was what percentage of the "distant" lead fragments actually was IN the meat, and not on the outside. The discussion of washing implies that quite a bit was on the outside. Thus surface trimming if the meat would eliminate this. It makes sense that mostly very small fragments would travel very far from the wound, and these would be less likely to actually penetrate the meat.

There was also the plain statement that they have no idea what this this means about lead levels in people who eat venison.

So I would say further research is called for.

I suspect that upland bird shooters ingest a lot more lead fragments than anybody who eats deer does.

I have a couple of friends who ended up with too much lead in their bodies from shooting in unventilated indoor smallbore ranges, but I have never heard of anyone who got it from eating pheasants.

I also have read through the MN DNR report and looked at the radiographs. My main question is this - What happens if you properly field dress those sheep carcasses? I'd LOVE to see radiographs of the carcasses post-field dressing. I've killed dozens of deer with Nosler Ballistic Tips and will continue to do so. The key is careful processing, not eliminating the projectiled used!
Selmer

As you can see, there are plenty of "holes" in the study. Quite simply one could say there are hardly any two shots alike! But it was a start to see just what happens to bullets. I have spoken to Lou Cornicelli. He is a Big Game biologist so he does carry a lot of clout. He doesn't seem to have an agenda but you never know. At this point the State is not going to do anything further other than to advise hunters of the potential and to take precautions. I can live with that. Its the EPA that will be the wildcard in this issue.
As an aside, the MN. DNR required all butchers who wanted to participate in the venison donation program to take a one day class in "proper butchering", at their cost of $100. The number of authorized butchers Statewide has dropped from around 70 to 30. Many said it wasn't worth it. As the rifle deer season just concluded, it is early to say how much venison was donated.
Last year, the MN Dept. of Health ordered the destruction of 16,000 pounds of frozen deer meat after this lead issue was discovered. Maybe the program will fade away.

Am I the only one who is sick of these lead crap threads.Anyone else?

1

Don't see how a gut pile can exist long enough for an eagle to find it. I've had a gut pile disappear in < 30 minutes, I know because my huntin' buddy passed by my stand on the way out along the same trail and had no idea I'd tagged a buck. Suspect we should be testing coyotes for their Pb levels.

Ingested Pb passes the GI tract with little harm, check the literature.

I'm not a scientist of any stripe, but I do study certain aspects of science from what I believe to be truthful and reliable sources. I am an amature astronomer. Have studied various kinds of math and logic. Having been raised on the east coast in a fishing community, and my dad being a commercial fisherman, I believe I know fish from fowl. I've never bought into the "global warming" hysteria.

During my lifetime (73yrs) having lived in various parts of Canada, there've been cycles of very hot summers and mild winters followed by cool, wet summers and frigid winters. Nothing really new about that. Last winter, here in south-central Ontario, we had a record-breaking snowfall that began in November and only ended sometime in April! It looks like this winter will be a repeat performance if judged by the past two weeks and projected forcasts for the next couple.

All that to say that in four trips to Northern Ontario for moose, this year was a first for bald eagle sightings. And snow buntings in flocks. BTW, I use and like TSX's, Partitions and cast bullets. I expect I'll continue to use whatever works for the rest of my hunting days (years?). I've ingested a lot of wild game and my doc says I'm in great shape. I expect that's due to an outdoor lifestyle, genetics and the grace of God. I'm not going to loose any sleep over this issue. Period. FYI, check out: friendsofscience.org

Yes, that is a valid concern to be sure. Your hypothesis on birds rings true too- I suspect that steel shot for upland birds and game is also on the horizon...?

With liberal idiots like you out there, it's just a matter of time before we can't hunt or shoot at all.

Steel shot for ducks and geese was the dumbest thing to come along the pike already.... steel for upland is even dumber. As is banning lead bullets. But cry wolf all you want.

One thing to consider when looking at these studies regarding lead poisoning from ingesting lead fragments is the different digestive systems of birds and mamals.

I can see small lead fragements passing through a human or coyote and remaining intact and doing very little harm. With birds everything gets ground up into very fine particles in the gizzard first before entering their digestive system, this could result in lead poisoning. This could very well explain the varying results of the different studies, one showing that ingesting small lead fragments are not not harmful to humans and others studies showing that lead fragments are very harmfull to birds such as eagles and condors.

Just something to ponder, right now I do not beleive there is enough solid evidence to justify banning lead in bullets.

This report tells us more about the agenda of the individuals involved than it does about hunting bullets poisoning eagles.

The Condor tests http://www.dfg.ca.gov/wildlife/hunting/condor/ were not much more than a sophisticated joke, they were so skewed and obviously flawed.

Read my last post in this thread;

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads...rue#Post2244557

BREAKING NEWS!!!!!!!!!
12/06/08 Bradford County Pa. It has been confirmed. Lead is killing our wild life. On Saturday Morning a six point and a doe whitetail were found dead from lead poisoning. Apparently a hunter shot both of these deer with a 130 grain lead bullet fired from a 270 winchester. Both deer were pronounced dead on arrival.

I still think Brooksrange is a smchuck

I hope we don't do the ignorant thing about more steel shot. It'll loose more game than lead ever would....

Just another junk science end run on guns and ammunition.