I'll split this up in several sections.



Part 1: The elk hunt



I just got back from a 10-day elk and moose hunt here in north-central BC. The first full day of hunting a buddy and I got the drop on a nice 6X6. He was the herd bull in this area, and had at least 30 cows with him. My friend was using his pet M70 Winlite 270 and 140 grain partitions I had loaded for him. I had my M70 358 Norma loaded with 250-grain North Forks.



From a distance of about 175 yards, we got a good shot at the bull. The bull's right side was toward us, almost broadside, slightly quartering away. My friend shot first as I watched through my scope. At the shot it appeared the bull had been hit, but he was still more interested in looking around at his cows than in falling over. After a few seconds of this, I shot. I have had the Norma barrel on this rifle for about a year but this was the first time I fired it in anger. First observance was a "smack" louder than I had ever heard before as the bullet struck the ribcage. I've shot a large number of animals, but never had I used anything larger than a 300 Wby. Second, the bull took one stumbling leap downhill and crashed on his face. Can you say decisive?



Here's a photo of the bull. My friend hit it first, it is his bull, his first bull actually and I'm very happy for him. However, it is me in the photo as I haven't asked if he minds his photo on the internet.



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Part 2: The infallible bullet fails



We recovered both bullets from under the hide on the far side. My buddy had made a high lung shot, perhaps a bit too far back for a quick kill. I couldn't quite believe it when I recovered the bullet, it had not expanded, the front had deformed a bit and it had lost the rear core. The only logical explanation is that the bullet tipped, but there was no underbrush between us and the bull when he shot. On a rib maybe? The recovered bullet weighed 53 grains (38%).



This is a case where the "at what point in the animals death did the bullet fail?" argument doesn't fly. The elks reaction was minimal, and I have no doubt it would have run a hell of a long ways, and possibly been lost, if I hadn't finished it.



Murphy was in full effect here. This summer I had convinced my buddy that he should go to a stiffer bullet than the 150 Hornady, and talked him into using the Nosler. I stayed away from the Barnes and such as we live in different towns and working up a load from scratch would have been inconvenient to say the least. I tried to go with the 150 but the local store was out of stock when the time came to load for him. Hence the 140s. And now the first time he used the partitions we recover a twisted chunk of metal and the Hornady's look pretty good to him. Just when you think you've got it all figured out... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />



Part 3: One for the nit-pickers. Was the North Forks performance adequate?



The terminal effect on the elk was impressive. It was done immediately. My bullet entered at the rear of the right shoulder and pounded the left shoulder. I was surprised to see the bullet under the hide on the left shoulder. As you can see, it looks like something out of an advertisement.



The 250 grain bullet, started at 2810 fps, had a recovered weight of 247.2 grains (99%). The unfired bullet has a length of 1.306". The recovered bullet has a length of 0.77", the shank under the mushroom has a length of 0.49". It still has a nice long shank for straight-line penetration. Expanded diameter ranges from 0.675" to 0.736", with an average of 0.71". It did everything you could ask...but go through the animal.



How many people would happily continue to use this bullet, or would you demand that a 250 grain bullet from a 358 Norma exit an elk on a broadside shot through the shoulders?



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For the handful of people on here that care, the cartridges are the 358 Norma "long neck" on the right made from untrimmed 300 Win brass alongside a 300 Win for perspective. The bullets are a 308 cal Hornady 180 grainer, a 358 cal 225-grain B. Tip, a 358 cal 225-grain triple shock, a 358 cal Speer 250-grain hot core and the 250 grain north fork.

Darn nice bull and great shooting. I like putting em down fast too. As for the 140gr NP performance, maybe it was because it was a 270 (just kidding <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ).

Thanks for sharing and the pics,

MtnHtr

Hindered by not being able to see your pictures but:

#1: The 358 Norma Performance. I for one would use that bullet again although as you say the penetration could have been better. Despite the
Poor performance of the 270 caliber partition I'd bet that a 250 Partition bullet in .358 would have expanded a bit less and penetrated a bit more.
My beef against your bullet is purely cost and availability in Canada.

#2: The only Nosler partition I have seen act like this is an 85 grain .243 or 60 grain .224 when hitting something really hard, really fast. (ie not an animal). I have had the 85 grainers self distruct when hitting a gravel strewn backstop for instance. The bullet is bent with the back lead squirted out...obviously having taken an enormous side impact.

I am at a loss as to why the bullet acted like this. I use the similar 140 Partition in my Ruger 6.5 Rem Mag and have always had complete penetration on caribou even when taking an angling shot or against shoulder bone. I'd have full confidence in this load even at close range against moose. In fact even the lighter 125 partition in my REM 660 in 6.5 Rem mag has completely won me over. Could this be a one in a thousand incident of striking angle and tumbling or is there lot-lot variations in construction quality that could explain this? A rib shouldn't stress the bullet like this but it obviously did.

I'd pull one of them and section it to see what you are up against.

As long as you're breaking that off side shoulder, I'd be very happy. Elk have tough hides that get tougher the further towards the head you move, so an exit isn't always going to happen. Nice when it does, but that's a lot to ask.



Where I get bothered is when the bullet turns or stops before busting that off side shoulder. Have had it happen with a 165 speer hotcor out an 06 (stopped) and again this year with a 160 accubond out a 7mm saum (veered). One of the reasons I prefer the X's. That thick hide might stop them, but the bone won't.



Fantastic bull, btw! Congrats!!!!

Nice bull.

I appreciate the time you put into the detailed analysis. I've been interested in the North Fork bullets. I would definitely use them again, if I were you. I'm going to give them a try myself. My experience is the same as Muley Stalker's. When shooting through elk shoulders, there is no guarantee on complete penetration.

Steve

Pictures came through this time. Jeez the North Fork is lovely. I didn't visualize the amount of shank left.

I still think on average a 250 grain Nosler would expand a little less and maybe penetrate a bit better but that is really good performance and you would need to test to make sure.

Rick, Real Nice looking elk! I also really appreciated the time you took to take the pic's and do the bullet write up. Especially since I have a .270 win. I'm kind of surprised with the partition. Wonder what would happen if you posted the Partition picture on the Nosler Hunting Forum <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> !!!!



-Dan

RickF,

Thanks for taking the time to show us all those pictures and the details you provided. To the "handful of people who care" comment, I think a lot more care than you think! Even those biased bullet users out there. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Bullet performance on live targets is always interesting.

I'm going to have to push aside my 225 grain Swift A-Frames and give those North Fork's a try next in my 358 Norma Mag.

Nice Bull .
I've noticed from time to time that the front end of a partition will sometimes totally disenigrate, but the back end always stays together.
The 300 gr Northfork I use in the 405 exhibited advertisement quality expansion and still weighed 297 grs when I got it back out of my bull.
Personally I think complete penetration on elk is overrated, and much prefer to find the bullet under the hide on the off side. My thinking is an elk on the ground at the spot of the shot or nearby is much better than 2 holes for a better blood trail.

Guys, thanks for the kind words. I plan to keep using the bullet, but I must admit I was surprised when the bullet didn't exit. I think it's a case of the large semi-rounded mushroom, similar in my experience to the A-Frame, limiting penetration. I just threw it out there for discussion, as it would be hard to convince the elk that the bullet didn't work! That semi-round nose did an amazing job of transferring energy.



Re the North Forks, I find them very unfussy with minimal fouling. Load development consisted of dumping in more IMR4350 until the chrony read 2800 out of the 23 1/2" barrel, at that point 3-shot groups ran about 0.65" at 100 out of the Pac-Nor.



I don't find the price of the North Forks objectionable at all, but it is a pain getting them into Canada. For that reason I'm going to try the 225 Triple Shock next. That should up my velocities from 2800 to almost 3000. With the pointed nose it will drop significantly less at longer ranges. But if accuracy isn't close to that of the North Fork, I'll stay with the NF.

Check out my post at AR, under the Big Game Forum, 180gr. ACCUBONDS FAIL ON DEER! Nosler Accubonds FAIL on DEER

I have much less faith in Nosler bullets after seeing several failures from both Partitions and Accubonds.

Hey lefty: Can you outline your experiences with failed partitions? I am skeptical but trying my darndest to keep an open mind.

Oh Yeah... just so you guys don't think I am a Nosler rep..I'll jump on the bandwagon to disrespect Ballistic Tips on big game any day of the week.

rick,

Damn fine bull, congrats.

Nice write up too.

Tony.

PS : I wish I was still up there in BC hunting !!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Great bull, great story and pic's. Thanks for sharing!

Huntr

RickF -

That's a mighty fine bull!

I would continue to use the North Forks and not worry about the exit. Last year I shot a 6x6 elk with a North Fork 350g from my .45-70. Impact velocity at 213 yards is calculated at 1550fps. The bullet went through the near leg, a near rib, a far rib and came to rest under the hide on the off side, passing through three layers of hide in the process (in and out the leg before entering the chest cavity). Near perfect mushroom, excellent weight retention. The bull stood there for a few seconds and then tipped over. Couldn't ask for much better. Tried the 160g 7mm North Fork bullets this year (got back today), but no shot. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Great post. NICE bull. Congrats to you both.

I"m in the camp of the guys who are surprised at the performance of the Partition. I've been using Partitions since about 1980 in both 270 Win and 300 Win Mag. I've never been disappointed with the performance I've gotten. I've only recovered 2 and they displayed perfect behavior.
I suspect there may be a flaw of some kind in that particular bullet or batch, possibly the jackets.
I'm of the belief that no matter what make of bullet you use, at some point you are going to hear about someone being disappointed with it's performance. When you think about the literally millions of bullets made and shot in the world over the course of a year, I think all the manufacturers do a very good job of putting out very good bullets. In the scheme of things, the few bullet failures that happen are quite miniscule by comparison. I know that is no consolation if it happens to you. Has your buddy shot any other game with that bullet?

Rick et al: Tested some bullets today including my much loved partitions. Interestingly the partitions penetrated no more than the 250 Speers largely due to tumbling.

When the bullet tumbles huge forces come against the side of the bullet including the back half and it is possible for the back core to squirt out.

Because the partition will only expand to a certain extent it remains fairly long. If the mushroom is out of balance or if it takes a force more to one side than the other it may lose it's gyroscopic stability in the target.

In this case the forces against the side of the jacket may cause the bullet to bend and lose it's rear core.

This is my hypothesis about how a partition can "fail".

I am having trouble attaching a picture but when I can I will post in the thread on .35 caliber bullet testing.

So, you are starting to see what we 358 Norma cranks are talking about. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Ted

I would venture to say, if the shot was further back than optimum, he only clipped the rear lobes of the lungs. I have seen elk go quite aways from this shot placement. but they eventually fall over, and sometimes, hunters don't/can't track themfar enough. As for the partition, I guess it hit a rib going and and tumbled.

I have said it a hundred times, the .270 AIN"T NO ELK CALIBER! Under ideal circumstance, yes it will kill elk, lions, moose and elephants, but it doesn't do it very well. Elk don't give you the perfect broud side 150 yard shot very often. Every elk I have had the mispleasure of tracking for long hours has been shot with a .270 AND partitions. Even on well placed shots, the .270 just doesn't decisively break shoulders and crumple elk. I have tracked elk that have been crunched in the shoulders, lungs, etc. The very small entrance hole and minimal amount of tissue disruption take a while to take affect on big bulls. I will catch heck for saying that, but that is my opinion based on a lot of elk experience. When a trophy bull of a lifetime stands before you at 350 yard, or even a hundred yards, do you really want a .270 in your hands????? It is a great deer caliber, but leave it home when elk hunting for serious bulls.

Had you not been there with your .350, that bull would have likely been lost, especially with a high hit and no blood trail. I still can't figure out why your buddy wasn't pouring on the lead until the bull was down. You killed a great bull and I am happy you did. It is a beautiful trophy. Flinch

I hunted elk this Oct. in S. Colorado. I was able to take the best bull in 40 years of elk hunting. I used my Ruger #1, in .280 Improved, and 140 gr. Nosler Partitions (actually, one Nosler). I had spotted him earlier in the afternoon, bedded down in a small patch of trees in a sagebrush flat below me, with several cows.
This big guy moved just before sundown, taking his time through sagebrush and toward the timber where I was waiting. He finally presented a shot, ranged at 274 yards. Thanks to a bright Leupold 6x, I was able to see him clearly, although legal shooting light was fast disappearing.
He finally went nearly broadside, slightly quartering to me. I held halfway up on his chest, and touched off the shot.
He staggered, took about 10 steps in a semicircle, and died.
I collected my gear, and worked my way down to the bull. I couldn't believe the amount of blood, mostly from the nose and mouth. It looked like Charles Manson had gotten there before me.
The Nosler didn't exit, but the internal tissue damage was enormous. No lungs left, just blood. And a very dead elk, a result just like Dogzapper predicted!
Most of the elk I have taken before this one have been with the 7mm Rem. Mag. And the results have been nearly the same. All this does is add fuel to a fire that isn't burning out anytime soon!!

WAAAHHH! I wanna see the pics! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Flinch some of the nastiest tracking jobs on elk I've encountered have been after shots from 30+ caliber belted magnums.
Watched a 2 year old cow elk take a 270 gr slug from a 375 H&H this evening at 219 yds. Certainly wasn't any more spectacular kill than if she had been hit with a 270. The bullet entered just behing the shoulder went out the other side and she waddled off about 50 yds before she fell over.

Flinch, in defence of my buddy, in retropsect, I think the length of time between his shot and mine was in the order of 3-4 seconds. I was watching as he shot through my scope, and when I didn't like the bull's response to his shot I fired. I have no doubt my friend was racking another shell into the rifle to be ready to fire again, I didn't give him the chance to do so.



I agree that if I hadn't shot the bull would likely have been lost. But I credit this to suspect bullet placement and partially to the NP not acting like we expected it to. Not due to the fact that it was a 270. If the NP had performed, and been placed where mine was, I think the bull would have run a few yards then fell over.



Now I've got to ask...you actually mean you don't hunt elk with the 25-284 and little wee X bullets? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />





PS. Sorry about the pics not showing guys. Hunt101 seems to be down.