Academic question regarding sectional density.

Given the same bullet construction and weight, would you rather have a smaller caliber (and higher SD) or larger caliber (and lower SD) on big game?

Here's my situation. I'm deciding on what rifle/cartridge to get my recoil sensitive wife for a caribou hunt. It would be a major plus if the same load was appropriate for moose however it needs to be soft shooting so she can comfortably practice a lot with it. I've boiled it down to one of the 6.5's (swede, cm, or rem), 7mm-08 or a plain jane 308. I'm looking at loads of 140 grains in the 6.5, 150 in the 7, 150 in the 308. I reload.

I've been reading a lot about the 6.5's lately and their great SD advantages but I'm trying to weigh that against the conventional wisdom towards a 30 caliber. If I am going to be loading any of these cartridges in the 140-150 grain area to about 2700 fps, am I correct to lean more towards the 6.5 for higher SD and likely deeper penetration?

Thanks

All things being equal - give me the SD - I can't see where it would hurt.

Given what you list - I'd prob end up with a 7-08 in TSX of some sort for both the moose and caribou.

SD is more theory today as bullet construction can deflate that number considerably once game his impacted.

Because it was originally intended as a measure for full patch or steel jacketed non expanding bullets, I give it little attention with today's modern expanding bullets which are well designed and or homgeneous which again, deflates the argument when talking penetration.

If you chose Barnes TTSX bullets in your chosen bullet weights, all would suffice, likewise Nosler Accubonds or Partitions in the same or next weight up the scale would also be fine.
John

If you can't kill it with a 140gr. 7mm TTSX at 2700fps, you probably need something that starts with .375.

This is the road I'd take. I killed a pile of caribou years ago with 140 Xs; never recovered a one. Poked a hole through a moose with one - in the slats; that one was lost as well….the bullet that is. Everything I hit with those bullets is long since eaten and gone. I have had a lot less difficulty stopping 6.5 bullets for some reason, whether in caribou or moose.

I believe the questions more points to what platform (specific rifle and fit for her) and whether or not you are a reloader.

I would do what ever Klik says. He's probably shot or witnessed the shooting of more caribou and moose than the rest of us combined.

Never used a 6.5 to shoot an animal, but.....why do I have this sneaking hunch that a 6.5 ain't.....quite.....a 7mm?

Some here rave about results achieved with the 7mm 120 NBT,
due to its' thicker jacket, and the consequent controlled expansion.

Shot placement is the real issue, SD not so much.

338:yup...... It's a number.

Easy question to answer;

Back many years ago when I was a young Guy I booked a Canadian moose hunt with my 25-06 because I was inexperienced, poor boy , and short of cash as well as experience and knowledge. My guide told me that I was seriously under gunned. None the less I was a very accomplished marksman and spined my moose that dropped in his tracks.

Later, as I gained experience and knowledge I escalated my repertoire to .30 caliber and .338 calibers of medium and big North American Game and minimum African compliance legal .375
and bigger.

Sectional density is perhaps pertinent but at the same time relatively immaterial to rifle, bullet performance. To whit:

#1. I really like the 6.5x55 Swedish Mauser which I own. A unique cartridge well seen in good esteem.

#2. However, for your wife's application I have to go with minimum .30 caliber such as .30-06 Springfield for Moose and caribou as well as mule deer and white tails and antelope.

For bench rest practice you can always significantly down load to attenuate recoil bench rest shooting to proof loads and sight in.

Some of my heavier calibers kick the snot out of me - OUCH!!! I developed some counter measures such as a Past shield strap on and some hokey lumber inventions that are too embarrassing to describe here but detailed/included shotgun lead shot bags to soak up the recoil.

I have universally found that whatever recoil backlash/kicks I have suffered on the bench at the range mysteriously disappear when I am in the field shooting real animals.

Sectional density doesn't mean squat with the amazing selection of bullets we have at our disposal today. Load it with monos, NPTs, Northforks, or some other stout deep penetrating bullet and make sure you knife is sharp

Furthermore, I've found caribou to be the easiest species of the deer family to kill. I'd bet on any given day of the week that a 125 pound whitetail will take more killing than the biggest bull caribou you can find. Moose IME aren't too hard to kill either, they may stand around for a while after you poke them but they usually tip over pretty easy. I used to think otherwise, but I've seen little kids knock over some pretty big bulls in the last few years using 243s and factory ammo.

Get her a good fitting rifle in any of the calibers you've mentioned and keep her in practice ammo. When hunting season rolls around load her up with premium bullets and make sure your knife is sharp.

Here is another suggestion: Get your wife shooting more, so that the recoil sensitivity diminishes some. My wife is 5'5" average build, she'll pass on a 7mm-08 every day of the week and pick her lucky 300 wsm out of the rack every day. It is lucky too, got her first elk with it, first buck and many since, and last fall she killed a dandy Shiras moose with it as well. Its a good thing we have 2 freezers.

Also, above all else make sure the rifle fits her well. I put youth stocks on my wifes rifles and that made the difference. Good luck and happy hunting.

Given your assumption of similarly constructed bullets, SD may have some utility in making comparison. In actuality though, so many bully's perform so well I'm not sure it really has a practical value.

For what you describe, I would lean 7-08. But a 130 TTSX from a .308 would work really well I'll bet.

I had the same issue with setting up a 7mm-08 for a buddy. Here's a thread I started asking for 7mm bullet opinions. I think I would lean toward a 120 TTSX in a 7mm-08 and call it a day. There's a pic of a moose in the thread taken with that combo. If not the 120 TTSX, I think I would go 140 PT. I like to start the TSX type bullets faster than the 140 will go in a 7mm-08 if at all possible.
http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/9553070/2

I know a lot of folks speak VERY highly of the .264's, but I just cant wrap my head around it for moose size game if other options are out there. But, that is strictly my head speaking. Never been after a moose, so I'm just passing along what my research has led me to.

With that said though, here's a link to a site detailling the viciousness of 120 TTSX in a 6.5. Go to the bottom of the hand-loading section under the barnes bullets. He tests bullets for a living, so I generally trust his input.
http://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/6.5x55.html

Pick whichever rifle fits her and go for it. Buy a lead sled for her to practice with until she is more comfortable with the rifle. She will not feel the recoil when shooting at an animal anyway.

As I was growin up in the handloading practice, we DID NOT have the monos of today. We had N P, Bitterroot, and only a couple more that I knew about.

AGW hits the nail on the head.

Even at that, S D is a no. that can show 'relativity' between bullet 'shapes'(length/dia).

Early on "GIVEN the same construction" (IMPORTANT) S D served a good purpose to indicate how different bullets---SHOULD---penetrate compared to each other.

AS AGW says, many modern bullets have erased that need.

Jerry

I read/hear this a lot. And the shooter may not notice recoil/blast at the time. But more often than not a person who has come to dislike recoil/blast will exhibit being affected by it, even while not noticing it.

M M

Not to totally disagree w/you.

Some of us are focused, or excited, or intent that we (some) -don't - notice recoil 'unless' it is very stout.

Many many Xs when shooting game I never 'feel' any recoil.

Some can't believe that. Ask me if I care.



edit - do>>>don't

Having similar experience, I agree that in the heat of the moment we don't feel recoil and hear the report the same way we do on the range.

What I wrote about is someone who is put off somewhat by the recoil/report of their rifle at the range will be negatively affected in the field, even if they don't recall recoil/noise afterward.

Any of the three will work. Remember the swedes use the 6.5x 55 for moose so caribo is definately in the mix and anything that the 6.5 can do the others can do. Don't over think it.

M M - 10/4

I'll take the higher SD. Thing about relying on the new designs is you have to be careful to account for instances when they fail. High SD is insurance. Of course, if you get heavy enough you find that cannon balls are effective. So, there's that.

For recoil sensitive shooters on game on open ground, I'd go for a 120gr 6.5mm or 130gr .277 of monolithic design. Penetration is assured, and if it fails to open it's not such a big deal out in the open.

If you might get by with something with more recoil, it is important to consider that a heavier bullet will be easier to push to a given velocity in a larger caliber. If you're going to use a 150gr, use it in the .308, not the 7mm08. The 7mm08 is for 140gr and so on down the scale.

If you will handload, and have not bought the rifle, consider a 270 WSM with reduced loads to start.

urbaneruralite,

How many bullets of any design have you seen fail? Which were they?

Isn't that the truth...

Truly the cartridge matters far less than the way the gun fits her, and it's weight. A rifle that doesn't fit her well, is to light, or has a short barrel, will all magnify recoil to the shooter.

The short barrel is more of a perception thing but it's real for shooters with less experience. Likewise, fitting the stock to her, and the gun being heavy enough to be comfortable with out being unwieldy is key. I'd recommend a barrel no shorter than 22".

My wife has been my learning experience, and she now uses a .257 Roberts most, and a .270W during elk season. Length of pull for these are short for everyone else in our house. I actually bought a .308 with a short barrel and fairly light thinking it would be good for her, she hates it.

Big Nate -- WINNER WINNER Chicken Dinner!!!!

Stock F I T can't be over emphasised, especially to a new shooter/youte/female. No discrimination.


BTW I suspect some recoil shy folk may very well benefit from making sure their stocks fit properly.

Being 65 and have been hunting since childhood I 'can',not necessarily like) shoot stocks too long or too short. I 'really' don't like a stock with big DROP at heel.

Jerry

Faced essentially the same question for Daughter #1 for her first elk hunt. We ended up with a .308 Win.

Yest to be finalized is the bullet - 150g AccuBond or 130g TTSX.

Her shooting skill limit her to about 300 yards, maybe 350 at the outside.

As stated by some others, rifle fit is very important, and many rifles do not fit small women well. Cartridge choice between those three makes no difference that can be measured. Remember the Swedish moose hunter surveys of a few years ago, originally published on here by John Barsness. - an exerpt:


6.5x55 # Animals 2,792 # of Shots 1.57 Moose Travel M after 1st hit 43


.308 WCF # Animals 1,314 # of Shots 1.67 Moose Travel M after 1st hit 41