I've analysed my field shooting performance and have decided I don't need to shoot further, just more accurately and more consistantly at the ranges I currently shoot at. In effect I need to be able to shoot slightly better than 1.5moa out to 275yards. The positions I use are from a stand with a shooting rail, prone over pack, kneeling with sticks and elbow on knee or pack very occasionally sitting and standing with sticks and elbow supported or unsupported. I use cross or quad sticks and I'm much more fussy about shot angles and placement.

I now almost exclusively hunt with a supressed stainless sporter M700 in a Macmillan mountain stock with a minimum of 8x50mm scope in low 30mm talley rings with accurate and quite flat shooting loads (243 and 7-08). I don't use turrets but aim off.

In effect I need to move from killing to specific bullet placement. I've started carrying my range finder in my pocket instead of my pack and have memorised my drops better.

My friends are of the opinion that I should consider turrets and/or a more vertical grip stock with adjustable cheek piece.

I don't think I have an issue with cheek weld. I have a long jaw which seems to me to sit well and repeatably on the stock. I would like a more vertical grip but not necessarily enough to spend on a game scout at this point.

I don't like the idea of turrets because my rifle is pretty flat shooting and I often shoot multiples where deer run about and stop momentarily at varying ranges. I would consider a TDS system but all now seem to be on second focal plane scopes which I cannot operate.

So the plan is - greater accuracy in ranging and matching drops to range and to practice more with what I have.

Unless you tell me a game scout/warden and PMII will magically improve my shooting

1.5 MOA to 275 yds should be pretty easy to achieve with just about any quality setup from the prone.

If you want to be a good shot, shoot offhand all the time. If you want to know how far away you can kill a deer, shoot milk jug size targets in all conditions and from a variety of positions.

No need for new equipment, simply get out there and practice from field positions.

Depending on what game you're hunting, the milk jug sized targets Travis mentioned should suffice. Paper plates also make for good deer vital zone sized targets.

Introduce some stress to your practice, whether via timer or exercising to get your heart rate up to simulate the pressure of a hunt, especially if you're mobile and may have a higher than resting heart rate due to climbing a hill or whatever.

Practice getting into position, finding the target in the scope, and making the shot quickly. I've seen more missed shot opportunities due to these problems than anything else.

Practice figuring out ranges without a rangefinder. They are a handy tool when you have time, but they do waste a lot of time that could be spent making the shot, especially on skittish game at relatively close ranges where a MPBR zero negates the need for a rangefinder...just point and shoot.

Zero your rifle to where there's no need for any hold over out to 275 yards. Should be very doable, given the right loads, and depending on target size.

The big thing is to just get out and shoot. Instead of spending money on a new stock, spend it on ammo. Shoot that ammo up in practice, and you'll be ready for the hunt! Plus you'll show up your buddies who think you need new gear.

I use gallon jugs filled with water and shoot of bipod shooting sticks. The max I've shot with this is 375 yards. It works. A 12" paper plate is also a good tool. If you can put three shots into it, you should ge good to go for most practical hunting applications.

I have steel plated out to five hundred yards from my stand. I practice shooting them. They are 2 feet square with a 10”” orange circle painted in the middle. I like the sound it makes when you hit metal!

Start here: https://www.amazon.com/Art-Rifle-Jeff-Cooper/dp/1581605927


Okie John

Stalk and spot rock chucks all spring. Has been the preferred training method for generations around here.

We shoot pigs every time we go to lease. They are great for practice and for trying different bullets.

Maybe I've not been clear. I have absolutely no problem killing deer at decent ranges and frequently. I do it just about every day (365 day season)

But our deer are small - think coyote size for roe and large fox for our little muntjac. The issue I have is too often hitting vitals that end up increasing damage to the carcass ie too close to the backstraps, occasionally the liver (and hence gut content contamination) and shoulders. So I need to be able to hit 3-4". I'm never going to shoot offhand and I'm very unlikely to take a rushed shot because I'll get another chance to make a considered shot and even if I don't I'll come back tomorrow.

I'll rephrase. Are raised cheek pieces, vertical grips, turrets etc an aid for precision field shooting on live game?

If you dont have a problem with cheek weld, why mess with the stock? I cant comment on vertical grips but in your first post you said you hold off. For precise shot placement, a scope with turrets and consistent accurate adjustments is better than holding off.

For the distances you cite the question of first vs second focal plane is moot since a straight 6x with a hashmark reticle will easily get it done.

It sounds like you have quality equipment already, but is it possible your rifle could benefit from a trigger job?

Just a tiny bit of creep or a too-heavy letoff will jiggle your shot to the point that 1 1/2" per 100 yards will be VERY difficult to achieve in field positions.

Other than that, I would grab a very accurate .22 rifle that is the same size/type as your hunting rifle, do some fairly extensive shooting at 50-100 yards with the sticks and see if your accuracy improves. Perhaps you're reacting to recoil or muzzle blast in a negative way.

Do you wear hearing protection when you hunt?

For 500 yards and in I'd be thinking around the size of a clay target, or at max 12x12 inch, 24 inches is a HUGE target for scoped deer rifle IMHO.

A rangefinder and turrets will definitely aid precision...especially in the cases you're mentioning. Hold off is fine for a big kill zone, but the narrower that kill zone the more precise you need to be, so don't be forced to hold off, know exactly where the bullet will strike.

Yes

You need to enter the dink contest.

Nothing is as valuable as quality disciplined trigger time—practice, practice, practice.

If your max is 275 I don't think a turret would help. Laser RF and a drop chart at 25 yard intervals, then practice.





P

Either posters aren’t reading what he’s doing, or don’t understand what he’s asking. Milk jugs aren’t going to help him.







Yes. Regardless of the distance, the target size that you are trying to hit puts you squarely into “precision rifle” realm. Vertical grips, adjustable stocks, mil reticles and turrets, and FFP will all help in precision shooting. I would even look into a full up chassis.

What 8x56mm scope are you using?

Curious as to why such big cartridges for that size game? They’re not helping in the precision or meat damage departments.

Thanks - very helpful.

Hunting areas have a mix of game so 243 for use on tiny muntjac because its the legal minimum for roe. 7-08 for fallow and also reds which can be very large ie verging on cow Elk. Generally all works well except where roe and reds coexist, then it's either big holes in roe or pass on anything other than perfect presentation for Reds.

Scope is a swaro pf 8x50

Otto,

Got it. I’ve been looking for a Zeiss Diatal-ZA 8x56mm with target/BDC turrets for a while.

That old aim small miss small is a good way to practice - a clay bird as suggested for one or 16 oz water bottles instead of gallon jugs, bottle caps at 50 yards with a 22 using a similar scope mixed in the practice session is helpful maintaining your form and trigger pull too. A reticle with hash marks that correspond to specific distances is a huge advantage.

We practice before elk season out to 800 yards at 8x18 inch targets from field positions, on sticks or packs or both so that 400 yards seems easy during the season. My 300 Weatherby with 180 grain Barnes matches the Z800 reticle all the way out. The only caveat is that with the 2nd focal plane Conquest I need to be at maximum magnification to be calibrated. I am pretty good at holding over and had killed a boar at 500 yards with that method using my 7mm RM but there is really no comparison in consistency with the marked hashes. Even when I miss at 7&800 the misses are almost always good on elevation and just left or right by a few inches. Just blindly holding over is pretty poor past 500.

That end result of small target or long range practice is a very high level of confidence at normal ranges. The 300 has as light a trigger pull as I’m comfortable carrying in the field just a hair over 2 lbs and shoots smaller than MOA groups from the bench with my hand loads so those things give you a good start.

An accurate 243 at your ranges should be capable of excellent performance. I find that I’m usually the limiting factor in accuracy with forgetting to take off the safety, not allowing for elevation angles, or similar brain cramps the biggest issue in the field.

Field position practice is good. Humbling, but good. I have a 1,000 yard rifle. (1 inch groups at 300) , and a 500 yard performance with a good solid rest and plenty of time.


Other than that, things don't go so good....

A quick update.

I now carry 10 rounds and a pie plate in my pack for practice after I've finished hunting.

This mornings effort

2 shots 100yards standing quad sticks
2 shots 170yards standing quad sticks elbow supported
2 shots 270yards prone over pack

The flier was first shot at 270 where I aimed off for wind which wasn't necessary. Dead deer but probably stomach contents.

I can feel the tension in my pistol grip hand caused by the lack of verticality and wear on the finish (ie slippery)

The roe deer looks like it does because it's moulting into summer coat. Early days but I'd say I've got the equipment I just need to take my time.

roe practice target

If you break your pie plate, no more pie for you. mlles

Otto, you are way over-thinking this stuff. First of all, zero your scope and rifle at 200 yards. I've preached this before.

100 yards is about 1.3" high
300 yards is about 6" low...and you can still hold on high shoulder

It can't get any easier than this. You stated you only shoot out to 275 yards. You will never have to dial an elevation turret to make a hit at the distances you describe, with a 200 yard zero.

Take a BIG piece of cardboard, lay one of those critters on top of it, and draw an outline of the animal with a big Sharpie on the cardboard. Then just set the cardboard target up at whatever distance you choose, and fill it up with bullet holes shooting from various field positions.

And...with a 200 yard zero, you will have negligible hold for wind...even at 275. Unless you have a 30 mph, full value, cross wind.

200 yards is one way to do it but I prefer MPBR (Maximum Point Blank Range) zeroing for a 6" diameter target.

For my .280 Remington with a 140g AB (B.C. .485) and a MV of 2901fps, 7500ft altitude, MPBR zero for a 6" target yields this:
+2.6" at 100 yds
+3.0" @ 140 yds
+0.0" @ 250 yds
-3.0" @ 295 yds

All my rifles get MPBR zeroed. For the bolt guns, MPBR tends to be from about 270 to a little over 300.

As to "practice vs equipment", the following are true:
1. No matter how good the shooter, the best accuracy that can be achieved is that of the rifle.
2. No matter how accurate the rifle, the best accuracy that can be achieved is that of the shooter.
3. As an average, the best accuracy that will be achieved is the circular error of the shooter ('X' MOA) plus the circular error of the rifle ('Y' MOA).

Given that, and given my shooting ability (or lack thereof), I prefer accurate rifles and clear glass in a scope that maintains its POA/POI relationship. In terms of results for my bolt rifles:
0.5 MOA = Lots of joy
1.0 MOA = Pretty good
1.25 MOA = Will try for better
1.50 MOA = Usable but definitely not desirable

Greater than 1.50 MOA and the rifle is gone if the problem can't be rectified.

Pretty much wraps it up. If you practice a lot offhand, when you are in the field and able to use any kind of rest (which you should strive to do...) it almost seems luxuriously easy ......

Sounds like you've got the right idea, just have to put in the work. A scope with one or two secondary aiming points might help with placement, if you have time to range. If you often hunt the same stands, the ranges should be known to you. Mono-metal bullets should cut down on the shrapnel damage to the meat, if you stay away from bone.

Otto, what country do you live in? Sounds like your buddies are trying to talk you into a "sniper" set-up. You also can't operate a 2nd focal plane scope? Huh. People have been killing chit for a long time with the old second focal plane hunting scope.... for a damn long time.. In your first post, you are talking about making a poke at 275 yards and 1.5 moa not being good enough. It should be. I think you need to change your poa if you are hitting in the guts. 275 yards is not really a long shot, if you are a practiced rifleman/marksman... Practice on a target, if you must, and change your damn aiming point. Take their heart and lung out, not the backstrap or guts, as you mention here... Like other guys said, if you can hit a milk jug, you can take out a deer's vitals at that range as well... Make your first shot count and put it in the right spot...

I agree with you guys...

The most successful hunter I know is not a great shot but he is a great hunter.

Farther down he posted that he is hunting coyote and fox sized "deer."

Very possible, if his deer resemble "key deer" (protected species down in Florida) they are the size of medium size dogs. Don't know where he calls home.

That can make all the difference in the world. As my grandpa got older he became more unsteady and his eyes went bad, but he was able to get close to deer and rarely shot past 50 yards and could hit them just fine. Likewise, being able to shoot in hunting positions makes a difference too. I have friends that can out shoot me at the range every time, but most of them can’t hit anything at 100+ yards offhand.

Home is UK.

On roe deer the desired killing area to be certain of not wrecking too much shoulder, bruising back straps or causing stomach leakage is about the size of a CD.

I watch the Fieldsports Channel regularly, and some of those little imports like muntjac are indeed tiny. Even a .243 might be overkill on some of them. What's the minimum caliber allowed?

The two outstanding deer hunters I have known were both great hunters, and both outstanding shots... Close range, long range, they had it all...