Folks:

I recently re-read the two-volume set, "Hunting on Three Continents" by JOC. The first section of the first volume deals with sheep and goats. I've watched a number of youtube and tv sheep hunts where all of the sheep and goats are taken at ranges in the 350-450 yard range, if not more. JOC, though, talks about almost all of his sheep being taken at 200 yards or less. Obviously there weren't any laser range finders then, but most hunters were also more practiced at estimating yardage, so my question: Are sheep more wary today (which I can't imagine) or have shooting distances increased by choice? It just seems that - on video, at least - the less than 200 yard shots at sheep and goats are few and far between.

Thanks

RM

I have shot 28 North American Rams in my 33 years of sheep hunting. 26 with a rifle and 2 with a bow. I can tell you with certainty that way more of them were under 200 yards than over. Like Elvin Hawkins, the great Oregon sheep guide said: "Travel light, Get close, Shoot straight." Truer words have never been spoken when it comes to sheep hunting.

My experience is limited to one goat and one sheep. The goat was taken at 125 yards verified by a laser RF. The Dall ram was between 150 and 200, estimated as I left my RF on the tent floor that day. My guide in the Yukon told me up front he wants shots under 250 because a ram is too valuable to be slinging Hail Mary shots at. His experience has been that under pressure after a mountain hike most guys struggle to make a clean 200 yard shot. The year before I hunted, a guy missed a 95 yard shot, steep down hill, hit a near by rock he couldn't see through the scope.

Too bad about those other 5 years....... Only know one other guy who had close to that many rams. Sounds like if you aren't trying to sell long range rifles that most shots are shorter. I shot my one and only with a bow at 32 yards.

I taken 4 Northern American wild sheep. Farthest was maybe 250 yds.

wow that's awesome.28 rams ! Most were obviously dalls, you should write a book!

10 Dalls, 7 Deserts, 6 Rockies, 5 Stones. Maybe someday we'll see. Still after it at this point.

I've taken 3 Rocky Mountain Bighorn rams, 1 Dall ram, and 1 Mountain goat. The longest shot was the Dall at 206 lasered yards.

I guided sheep hunters for 5 years and still guide for goat. The vast majority of all the sheep I've guided for, or taken myself were killed at 200-yards or under. I've often wondered if the long range shooting trend thats so popular right now is just a marketing ploy to sell new rifles and all the gear that goes with it, or if those guys just never learned to hunt. I do know that in 30-plus years of guiding I've never had a hunter have to take those long shots, and I've seen very few that were capable of it anyway.

I've always found it interesting that so many of the long range rifles built today are marketed to the sheep hunting crowd, and the fact is that most guys are going to need a guide to hunt these species, and very few guides are going to let you shoot at extreme ranges anyway.

Laser rangefinders have greatly increased the accurate ranges of hunters. Way out there where bullets are dropping 6" or a foot for every 100 yds, nobody can accurately guess the range across a valley even though the gun is capable of putting it right on target. The problem is that many hunters aren't as capable as their guns, laser aided or not. We never read about the wounded animals that are never found.

It’s like when wifey goes to Vegas, I only hear about what she wins, never what she lost. I bet there a lot of wounded animals we never hear about. I can’t recall even one.

Impressive folks on this thread. Lots of experience. My lone ram, an fine Rocky Mountain Bighorn (Montana) was 200 horizontal yards, but at a very extreme angle, so almost 400 yards through the air (down). I was much closer to many, many rams during my hunts through the season. I would say 300 yards would be a great maximum range for most hunters to effective at, with further shots requiring more skills and time behind the trigger than many possess.

One important factor that is not discussed a lot - I had to battle a severe case of the shakes (BIG time RAM FEVER) once I knew this ram was "the one". That was a first for me, and I can still feel my pulse quicken when i look at my ram mounted on its pedestal.

2 dalls...1 desert...1 goat......2-250 ......bob

30 feet to 450 yards.

I’m betting the hunter from 300 years ago would say that we ‘never learned how to hunt’ because we are willing to take shots beyond 50 yards. In range of the shooter/rifle system, is in range – a variable distance depending on situational conditions. Once the animal is in range, there is no point to sneaking within 50 feet to prove that ‘you learned how to hunt’, unless you just want to for kicks and giggles.

I have seen more animals wounded (some recovered, some not) at under 200 yards, then over. But you don’t hear about those because they don’t make a good story. Just like you don’t tell the stories from your glory days about the football games that you almost won. IME, typically when guys miss the mark beyond 300 yards due to inability or a lack of preparation, they miss the animal entirely.

I also think that most of the long range shooting on TV is just a marketing ploy for the sponsors products. Almost every time I see one of those "across canyon" shots, I think to myself that I could easily sneak to half or less distance to the animal.

I am also proud that all 3 of my Montana Bighorn rams and my Montana goat were taken on DIY solo hunts.

Of my 4 North American wild sheep three of them were taken at ranges between 100 and 150 yards. The Dall was taken at a range of around 200.

Lots of good honest hunters giving great honest advice and commentary.....

Thanks for adding to the thread, like usual....

I agree, love sheep threads...

1 dall at 367 and 1 goat at 360 with a rifle redneck made me, his guns shoot lights out!
Ho ho ho

Yes, pretty incredible amount of experience here. For my part, I have none to share other than second-hand. I thought that scoring sheep was difficult enough that closing distance might be necessary to make sure you are taking a legal ram. Does that play a roll in final shooting range?

Sheep hunters will get close, under 200 yards. Rams are scrutinized like crazy and long shots are considered foolish. Here in BC if a ram is 1/4" short he will be taken away.Many close ones are mature Rams.

Five dalls and two goats. 1 dall taken at over 300 yards but 1 dall, my first and longest, at 10 yards. 1 goat at 250 yards and 1 goat at 330 yards. Most of the time its harder in the area that I do a lot of hunting to get up close on goats in locations where they can be retrieved then getting close to sheep.

Myself, my wife and a son have taken 6 Dall sheep between us. One (son's ewe) was about 200, one ram of mine about 330 - both with 17 inch bbl 30-06.
My first was @ 50 feet wth .243 Rest were less than 100.

My wife could have taken her ram at 70 yards with BP, open sights, as planned.

If I had brought the Pyrodex.

She had to use the .270....

Me, sample of one ram, 75-80 yds. My brother, 2 rams, 2 ewes, 75-175 yds.

3 dalls, one bighorn. 110-250yds.

Thanks for all the responses. For those who have taken sheep and goats at 200+ yards, was it by choice or necessity (i.e., impossible to stalk any closer)? No judgment one way or the other; I'm just curious.

Thanks again.

RM

Good to see you comment on this thread,

I shot my sample of one at 80 yards as lasered by my guide. I was offered shots at 180 and a little over 100. It was pretty easy to get closer so we did.

One dall at 280 out of necessity.

Sometimes Mike cross canyon is as close as you can get. Also sometimes the rams are leaving. I always get closer if I can which is usually. Sheep aren't hard to kill they are hard to find. I think in long range shooting you have to be brutally honest with yourself what you are capable of. It's kind of like hunting Dall sheep in the glacier country. It isn't for everybody.

1 Rocky - 100 yards
1 Dall- 250 ish horizontal yards. 400+ angled yards. Jake Jefferson captured it on video for me.
2 goats- 200 yards and 18 yards.

For years we have been listening to news about Banks Too Big To Fail. Well, sheep hunting should be governed by the phrase To Close To Miss. With 30+ sheep hunters that I have personally guided not one sheep was taken at over 200 yards and many so close that I was worried the hunter would alert the sheep before the shot. Any sheep guide that tells his hunter to shoot a sheep at 500 yards really needs to learn how to hunt .
Good Hunting
Lj

The son of a friend got an enormous muley buck this year at 600. He does a lot of long range shooting and had a good rangefinder. I've hunted where he got it and I know for a fact that he couldn't have got closer. He shot across a draw into a burn with piles of deadfall. A closer approach was impossible.
Then came the realities of long shots. It took him 2 hrs to walk that 600 yds and 2 days for 2 of them to pack the deer out. He told his dad that shooting it was about the dumbest thing he'd ever done.

A good illustration of why some of us are against long range shots at game. In the scenario above I doubt he would have found that deer if the shot wasn't just right. He might not have even known it was wounded. When it takes you that long to get to the area the animal was standing when the shot was taken it would be impossible to locate the exact location to look for signs of a hit; and forget about any follow up shots. In two hours that deer could be in the next county.

There's nothing wrong with going home empty, sometimes getting into a position where an ethical shot is possible doesn't happen....thats why its called hunting...

I think you're confusing "ethical shot" with your own personal ethic. Plenty of ways to ensure you find an animal that's hit, including having a spotter stay put and guide the hunter to the animal. And since we're talking about sheep chances are the hunter and/or guide will see where it goes down or be able to find it easily out in the open where they live.

And as far as "the shot having to be just right," no more or no less than than any other shot. I once shot a buck at 30 yards, right behing the shoulder, double-lunged. He still ran over 200 yards and I had a hard time finding him. Was that more "ethical?"

On sheep I've gone 200, 450, 450, 560. Only one goat, and he was 165.

My buddy did get one sheep at 125ish, others were 375 - 450. Generally in the area that we hunt (and find rams) there are large stretches where there is no cover. That is one of the reasons rams hang out there. Of course we could have let any of those rams walk, or we could have just walked straight at them and hoped for the best. Sometimes that works, sometimes not. I'll leave the ethics questions for the those more qualified.

IMO, for most guys, the "range" that matters most for sheep hunting is "Price Range". I doubt I'll ever be able to shoot that far.

I disagree. I've spent enough time looking for blood when an animal was shot at moderate ranges to know how hard it would be at 5-600. I've also hunted sheep long enough to know how fast they can disappear. They live in rough country, and although it is usually more open country ( not always) they can still be hard to find. If were talking guided hunts then its a moot point anyway because chances are very high your guide wont let you take long shots to begin with. Theres a reason for that too.

What I meant when I said the shot had to be just right was that if the shot isn't good, you're in for a long day. Your chance for a follow up go way down, and if it takes you two-hours to get to where the animal was ( like in the story I was commenting on) a wounded animal could be a long ways away by the time you get there; making the tracking job that much harder.

I dont think anyone would disagree with the fact that long shots are much harder to make, so yea you can still lose game or make a bad shot at close or moderate ranges, but for all of us the odds go way up if the distance is kept reasonable. IMO the high rough country where sheep and goats live is the last place to try long distance shots. The winds and downdrafts are just to hard to dope.

Thanks for the response yukon, good points. I'd agree that in a situation where recovering the animal is dicey, then ethics do come into play.

But I still think that has a lot more to do with factors other than the distance of the shot, and there are lots of situations where a long shot is just as ethical as a short one.

1 Rocky Mountain Bighorn- 95 yards

When I first spotted him, he was 385 yards. Pretty sure I could have made a clean kill as one of spots I place my steel plates is 387 yards from the bench.

I spent the next few hours closing the gap and would not trade that experience for anything.

The whole LR debate reminds me of a quote I heard in my bowhunter education class many years ago. "An archer sees how far he can be from a target and still hit it, a bowhunter sees how close he can get before he shoots"

It is certainly easy to use that same line of thinking with firearms. Your personal preference dictates what you want be. It becomes an ethical issue when the shooting ability does not match up to the distance. No matter the distance.

I like that. Very well said. We all have different abilities.

Where did you come up with your name here on the Campfire?

Of the 14 sheep I have guided or hunted, I would guess that the average shot range is around 350-300. Some as close as 90 yards, and some as far as 600. Like most things, I would much prefer to be up close to them.

Tanner

265 on a Dall, 400 on the Stone.......

I agree with the quote above, 100%.


I don't agree with the quote below at all, it's 100% a value judgment and just reflects someone's personal preference. I teach hunter education and I do my best to keep those types of value judgments out of the dialog, or at least make it clear that it's just my personal preference and there's more than one legitimate way to skin a cat. To say that someone who doesn't share my personal preferences is "not a hunter" is arrogant and myopic in my opinion. It all goes back to why we hunt and what we each want to get out of it. And there are almost as many reasons why we hunt as there are hunters.

If a guy stalks to within 50 yards of a deer or elk and can say to himself "I've practiced for years and I know I can make this shot," then making the shot doesn't mean he's "not a bowhunter." If he lives for the stalk and wants to get closer that's great, more power to him. But he has no place to say another guy who stops and makes the shot "is not a bowhunter."

I've been fortunate enough to have been in on 26 ram kills over the years, and I'd say the average shot was around 200 yards.

I have hunted 28 different species and subspecies of sheep and goats from the far west Brooks Range of Alaska to the Koryak Mountains of far eastern Siberia and most of my shots, I mean the overwhelming majority, has been closer than 250 meters,
Most of the times I had de option of shooting 350-450 but decided to get closer just for the spell of it.
Other times I just passed and looked for another animal, or took de shot if I was running out of time or stamina.
I hunt the mountains with a Blaser K95 Kipplauf or break open single shot and use either its 6,5x57R or .270 barrel.
Alvaro

My one Sheep was killed @ 348 lazered yards. The incline was so great, however, that I held as I would for a 200 yard shot (this was before ballistic ranging) and made a perfect lung shot..


I've never killed an Elk or an Antelope @ over 200 yards and I've killed a bunch of each.

I've never hunted sheep. I've only seen a handful of them in real life. But I do remember JOC saying something like "When I first started hunting sheep, I always saw them at long range because I had not yet learned how to hunt sheep."


Okie John

[quote=smokepole]... Plenty of ways to ensure you find an animal that's hit, including having a spotter stay put and guide the hunter to the animal. And since we're talking about sheep chances are the hunter and/or guide will see where it goes down or be able to find it easily out in the open where they live...[quote]
Years ago I was DIY hunting in one of Montana's Unlimited Bighorn tag units. This day my hunting partner decided not to climb the mountain where we thought the sheep were, so I went up alone (but with my Golden Retriever). Earlier that morning I had met an Outfitter that had a guide and client also hunting up on that mountain.

About 3/4 of the way up the mountain I came to the edge of a wide avalanche chute and there were two bighorn rams out in the chute, not 20 yards from me. Both rams were legal but were smaller than the full curl ram that I had killed the previous year, so I let them go. Both rams ran up the chute and out of sight.

A few minutes later I heard a shot and one of the rams came running done the chute and turned south and out of sight. Then the other ram, which was the one that had been hit, came running down through the timber and turned north when he saw me. The client's shot had hit the ram in the guts, and several feet of his small intestines were dragging behind him like a rope.

I didn't know where the Outfitter or his guide and client were, and I didn't like seeing that wounded ram running away, so I followed it to the next avalanche chute where it had stopped, and I gave it a finishing shot.

I then went back and found the outfitter and the others and took them to their ram. The Outfitter had seen me just before I had originally seen the rams, and he said that when he heard my shot he thought it was from some other hunter on the north side of the mountain. They had no idea that the wounded ram had ran north, and they had gone off after the ram that had ran south.

All ended well, I took them to their ram and helped them pack it over and done the mountain to their camp. When I had met the outfitter earlier that ,morning he had been real skeptical of me taking my dog with me up the mountain. But after I had helped with their ram, he invited me to dinner that night at their camp, he gave me the biggest porterhouse steak, and made sure my dog got a big meaty bone.

My purpose of this lengthy rant is that there isn't always a guide or spotter to help find your lost animal. And contrary to what many think, bighorn sheep are often found in the timber.

Oh, and the next year I went back into that same area, just me and my dog, and I shot the other ram.

A couple of points in response. First, I never said a guide or spotter is always there to help. I was responding to someone who made a blanket statement questioning the ethics of long shots due to the difficulty of recovering the animal. My point was, it's not always difficult and long shots can be just as ethical as short ones.

Second, I was assuming a good hit. If an animal is gut-shot and runs a long distance all bets are off, short range or long.

Single Colorado bighorn, 40 yards. Spotted him from about half a mile, had to drop down below timberline to get close without being seen, spent 3 hours getting to where he was. By the time I got over near where he was, he had moved and bedded and I came up below him. I did’t realize he had moved till I crawled up over a ledge and there he was. If he had not of moved my stalk would’ve brought me to about 100 yards from him.

My one and only Dall ram was at 250.

I have 5 sheep with the bow, two bighorns, and one each Desert, Stone and Dall, first four were do-it-yourself, the Dall was guided. Closest ram was 35 yards and the furthest was 60 yards. That said I spent a lot of time sheep hunting over a 37 year period to get an archery grand slam! About 1 in 7 stalks got me into archery range.

Goats were a bit easier to get close to for me as a bowhunter. I got two...both about 25 yards away...but the terrain was a whole lot more vertical than the sheep country I hunted. I also had better success stalking close on goats than sheep with about 1/4 of the stalks getting me to bow range.

Good luck on your hunts!

My archery Rocky was 63 yds and my archery Dall was 53 yds. Guided but alone on both stalks. After years of rifle hunting bow hunting sheep is a whole different ball game. With a 200 yd shot rifle hunting your hunt is over. Bow hunting it is just getting started.

320 yards on mine, we stalked to the edge of a sheer cliff, and couldn't get any closer.

450 yards. We watched the group (2 rams and 3 or 4 ewes) for a few hours till they got up and started to move. We waited till they got out of sight then headed up a drainage trying to cut them off. They came out ahead of us and had us pinned down, looking at us. Outfitter ranged them and I slid my pack on a large rock (about the size of a small table) and had a great rest with little to no wind.