Finishing Walnut stocks - 24hourcampfire

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What do you guys know about finishing a walnut stock. Lets start from a blank being set in front of you and being sanded perfect with 100 grit paper, what next? We also need to install a recoil pad. What's next? This should be done with a hand rubbed oil finish not a gloss finish.jj

Jim,There was a good thread on stock finishing on the gunsmith board awhile back. I copied the posts, and will forward them to you. If you want to do some of your own gunsmithing work, I highly recomend Brownells gunsmith kinks books, there is so much good info in there, even if you don't do all your own work, you'll have a better appreciation of what the gunsmith does, or should do.

JJ, I would advise using 200 grit paper next and then 400 grit paper and then perhaps even some 4-0(0000)four ought, steel wool. Be sure to use a sanding black with the 100 grit and rougher so to avoid waves in the wood. You want the wood nice and flat on the flat spots and nice and smooth curves on the curves. A doll rod with sand paper will work well for the curved spots. The last stock I did, which was several years ago, I used sprayed on Flecto Verathane in a satin finish. This finishes extremely tough and you don't have to wait forever as with the tru-oil products. In order to avoid finger prints use a bent clothes hanger to hold the stock thru one of the cuts in the stock. Then, when finished with a coat, just hang the stock up by the clothes hanger hook. Put on several thin coats rather than one heavy coat that can run. The big key is to use good sanding technique before applying a finish.

On page 321 of The Rifle Book (1964 edition), Jack O'Connor gives a very good description of how to apply an oil finish to a wooden gun stock. It definitely isn't an overnight operation. It's too long to type in here, but if you like drop me an email and I'll be happy to copy it and send it via snail mail. Justin

JJ,Talk to Sheister, he's done it all and I've seen his work and it's outstanding. He's in the process now of working on a stock so it's fresh in his mind and can give you 'do's and don'ts'. He's too humble to admit it but he's got a talent.

I've had a couple done, but not by myself.. So I understand that the sanding and prep is 90% of the job, and where the "make it or break it" quality aspect kicks in...I think my gunsmith said something about keeping it wet for 40 days??

JJ, -- food for thought, you have mentioned several times about your guns being tools of the trade. Save yourself a lot of work, since you have it sanded to wood, hang it, spray it with the grey no slip junk we use on boat trailer fenders. Nice no slip, textured, tough, working finish, you can walk on it without damage. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] -- no

Good thought Sonnie but this is not a work rifle. This is for a small caliber(.22) special rifle I am refinishing. If it were a work rifle I would not even bother with wood. Although My 458 Lott will have a wood stock, and it most certainly is a "work" rifle.jj

Okay Spike, I'm getting suspicious. What is that compliment going to cost me? [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]JJ, try this site- http:www.gunstocks.50megs.com/Whatever you do, don't use steel wool on your stock. I've seen stocks where the little metal slivers rusted under the finish and it looks pretty bad. Use Scotch pads for the finish sanding after going with 100, 200, 320, 400, and 600 if you are ambitious enough. Then use super fine wet/dry paper of 600 grit or so and rub in a good oil finish mixed 50/50 with mineral spirits until it won't take any more finish. If it looks dry after about an hour, it needs more. Once you get to this point, the stock is completely sealed from moisture- let it dry for at least 30 days to completely cure.After the curing, add very thin coats of oil with a very soft rag or your finger tips. A thimble full should be enough for the whole stock. Then let it dry for a few days. This may take a while as you are trying to build up the finish and let it cure completely between coats. Once you have enough finish on, (10-20 coats), look to see if all the "orange peel" is completely gone. If it is all flat and even with no dull spots when inspecting it in the sunlight, then get some rottenstone at a paint supply store, mix with whatever oil you are using, and rub it carefully over the entire stock until the desired finish is reached, removing the rottenstone and oil residue between rubbings and polishing slightly with a cloth. You'll know when it is right.I probably don't need to tell you this, but the wood preparation is the most important thing in the whole project. If you leave a scratch in the wood anywhere, from damage, dings, or the early grades of sanding paper, it will show in the finished product. Take your time at this stage and you won't be refinishing at the final stages. Don't ask me how I know this. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]Recoil pads are actually fairly easy to install. First, you need to determine your Length of Pull. For most guys, this is about 13 5/8" or so. Put the action in the stock, measure back from your trigger face to a point where your LOP will be. You will need to deduct the thickness of the pad from this measurement before preceeding. Do this before you start work on shaping the stock in case you chip the stock slightly when making this cut. You can then hopefully have enough material left to repair any small chips the saw may take out while shaping and sanding. When you have the stock to the final dimension you wish to work to, buy a Recoil pad of your liking,(I like the Old English and the Pachmeyer's the best) of the size closest oversize to your stock size. Use a very sharp razor to open the rubber over the screw holes but cutting a small X in the rear of the recoil pad. Hold the recoil pad over the buttstock in the final position, reach through the screw holes with a thin nail or awl and mark the rear of the stock where the screws will be installed. Remove the pad and drill a couple of holes the appropriate size for the pad screws supplied with the pad. Put some masking tape on the front surface of the pad (the side against the stock). Install the pad with the screws, very carefully so as not to enlarge the holes in the rear of the pad. Using a good pen or pencil, mark around the stock on the tape on the pad where it meets the stock and remove the pad. Take the pad to a belt sander and remove the material on the sides only being sure to keep the sides square, not the bottom (pointed part) of the pad, until you have about a 1/16" of pad around the line. Reinstall the pad, and using the belt sander, sand all the way to the wood along all sides of the pad. You will see now is the time to shape the bottom point of the pad, so you can continue the bottom line of the stock down to a taper instead of straight back which would not look professional. Once you are happy with the finished shape, carefully remove it and set it aside. Repair and sand the spots where the sander touched the stock, and finish as above. The pad then is installed last, after all the other finishing is done. Don't forget to seal the wood under the pad and in the inletted areas. Installing the tip material and cap material is a little more involved, so if you are contemplating doing this yourself, let me know and I can walk you through it. Any other questions, let me know. You have my number. Another great resource for these tips is Ray Atkinson. In fact, I stole a lot of this information from his tips on other boards, especially where it was the same or better than my own techniques. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] -Sheister

JJ,I think Sheister covered all the bases pretty well. There are perhaps a few more tidbits to throw in.The following is a recommendation from Boyds' Gunstocks on finishing wood stocks:To get a professional finish on your stock, finish sand to 180 grit. Spray or pour on a liberal coat of Tru-Oil and wipe away any runs. Once dry, repeat the process with Tru-Oil again, this time, however, lightly sand with 180 grit sandpaper the stock while the finish is still wet. This will mix small sawdust particles with the finish and assist in filling in the pours of the material. Allow to completely dry and repeat the process as many times necessary until the pours are completely filled. Let set for 24 hours, then scuff the stock with a very fine grit sandpaper or use steel wool, be careful not to sand to raw wood. When this is completed use compressed air to remove small particles and a tack cloth to remove any excess debris. The stock is now ready for waxing for a low sheen finish.Boyds recommends Birchwood Casey Tru-Oil and Wax. I'm sure there are many others that would do as well.For recoil pads, the advice is similar to Sheister's, although his advice is much more in depth. For installing a pad, push a sharp scribe coated in vaseline through the screw holes form the inside out the back of the pad, then remove the scribe. Use a razor blade to cut an X in the top of the pad at the location where the scribe holes came through the pad. Next, coat the screw and screwdriver shaft with vaseline and install the screws where your Xs were placed. This leaves a presentation of the screw holes in the pad being invisible.Good Luck, ~rossi~

Doesn't anyone whisker a stock prior to applying the finish any more> BCR

Boggy, whiskering (or raising the grain) can be done before putting on finish or when sanding the first couple of coats of finish. Either way it seems to work about the same and doing it with the first coat of finish eliminates a step. Personally, I prefer to whisker the stock first before finishing.- Sheister

That is about the same way I do it too Sheister. I wet it, dry it quick and cut off the whiskers with some new 600. Then rub off the first coat of finish if I am not using a filler. I just hadn't seen it mentioned so wondered if there was a new method I hadn't heard about. BCR

JJ Hate to say it, but I disagree with the whole works here. I gave a couple very long-winded versions of my approach on a thread under gunsmithing some time back. I believe 458 Lott was sending you that thread via an alternate route.Oil, even cured oil, absorbs atmospheric water alarminly fast and then sheds it slowly. No oil seals water from any stock... ever.I use a coat or two of epoxy under an oil finish. It looks like an oil finish, wears like an epoxy finish, seals like plastic, and repairs just like the oil finish it mostly is.Part of the playing I have done with this involves finishing many hundreds of cubes of walnut with various finishes and weighing them very carefully under many different atmospheric conditoins, most of which are brought about in a steam box.Oil finished wood absorbs water faster than bare wood... period.Don't really want to start the kind of running engagement Mr Atkinson and I had in the last thread, but it is still available there. art

JJ, I had a bit of a hand in the Sitka Deer Vs. Atkinson debate. For what it is worth all the above mentioned finishes work as do their applications. Some are just better suited to wet climes than others. I use a bone from the leg of a beef to finish prep my wood. This is done with a large diameter bone about 4 inches or so long. The bone is rubbed on the wood to close up the pores and polish the wood. This takes some practice to get rite. Go easy it is not difficult to leave lines in the wood from too much pressure, the results are outstanding when done. Linspeed makes a very good stock finish, expect to spend several weeks finishing or even months when using oil. Oil finishes are durable and water resistant when bone properly, look at firearms from the past century. It just can't be rushed. I am currently into my third month of finishing two rifles. Custom gun makers just can't afford to use oil due to the time it takes to do it rite. Thus the many finishes to make a finished stock in the shortest time possible.

Art, can I put epoxy varnish over my oil finish?pak

PAK Don't think I would try that. The epoxy would likely seperate over time and would be a surface finish which would be a bit thick for my esthetics, also.Getting the epoxy soaked into the wood and just barely covering the surface is the way. Then the oil finish on top looks just like a plain oil finish. art

Well I guess I got more then I bargained for on this! No wonder I chose synthetic stocks for all my rifles til this one!Just for an example what does a company like Winchester or Remington do to there mass produced rifle stocks? How is it they look decent and are mostly functional without the months of hand rubbed finsh. They certainly cannot be doing it the same way that is has been described here!Sitka, I am glad you spoke up and I understand what it is exactly that your explaining. For the purpose of this piece of wood, it will never see a drop of water, maybe some humidity but it is not a big game rifle which will ever get wet. I have completely sanded with the 100 grit, it looks nice. I am going to use the 200 grit and the 400 grit this week. I will finish the stocks recoil pad as well this week. So I am about a week away from any type of finish.I would like the wood a bit darker so I must think about either a thin stain or maybe the finish I use will darken it enough? If I were to use a little thin stain to get a darker finish what would you suggest? jj

JJ: When you get the 400 done and then do a 600 or even 800 grit on top of that (JMHO, if you spend enough time with the 400 the 600 and 800 will not take long) wet the stock with water. You need to wetsand to get it smooth. When you wet it, you will feel the grain "raise" again as the water soaks in, and not be truely smooth. You need to just knock off the raised pores or when you finish it, it will be as rough as it feels when you hit it with water. You will know what I mean when you do this. Your fingers will tell ya when it is right. The color when wet is about what you will get when finished. I love doing this type of work and it has been interesting seeing the comments ...... and I want no part of the arguements. Sitka is right BUT if its a showy gun that will never see wet humid environments then the oil is easy to apply and hard to f*ck up. I have used poly's and very very hard two part epoxy's used to do countertops. That sh*t is hard as a rock and does not have to be glossy (I know you hate that) but is a royal pain in the ass to apply and get to looking good.You have tons of advice here. Pick the one that sounds good and give it a go. Based on what you have said the gun will be subjected to a simple oil finish and a GOOD bedding job will work for you I am sure. Whatever finish you apply rememeber to have a good bedding job done. I am sure you know this..........Good Luck Tex

JJ Based on the fact you do not really think it needs to be sealed, are you sure it won't be moved around, even indoors, between 2 distinctly different climates? Will you always live where the humidity matches your current address? What about when you pass it on?If you decide to use plain oil finish, varathane 66 is my favorite, followed closely by Tru-oil. Do not think you would have a problem with either. As texas-hunter said they are pretty much worm-proof.Make sure that most of your sanding is done with a block or you will be creating ripples in the surface as you cut away softer areas of the figure faster than the harder areas.Remember to use high quality sandpaper, it cuts a lot of time and effort out of the job. Color can be accompllished many different ways. Careful scorching, not to black, but just to a bit darker than it is, is a good way. It will also be permanent color, where a stain might change color over time and cause problems. Color-fast dyes and stains are not always what they claim. [img]images/icons/crazy.gif" border="0[/img] art

Sitka Deer, I have never heard of an oil finish actually increasing the woods ability to absorb moisture. I am not disputing you, only asking how you came to such a conclusion. Oil finishes have been a standard finish on gun stocks for quite a few years before there was such a thing as plastic stocks. Many knowledgeable people still use it. I do not live in the Alaskan rain forest but I do hunt my rifles in every kind of weather. I bed the action, float the barrel, and seal all the wood inside and out and have not had a problem to date with shifting impacts. The Chinese used Tung oil to waterproof their ships (maybe it was to sink them). However I am always willing to learn something new. I am just baffled. [img]images/icons/crazy.gif" border="0[/img]

Thunderstick, this is a guess as to why oiled wood may absorb water. Wood is made up of cells called lignen these cells are what wood fiber is composed of. As wood dries the lignen cells shrink in diameter but very little in length. Replacing the water in the cells with an oil will cause the cells to swell back up, but not to their original size. The oil on a stock is only a few molecules deep into the wood. Lignen fibers being roundish have interstictual space between each cell voids. These voids provide a conduit for water molecules to travel to the dry lignen cells benigth the oiled cells thus causing the wood to absorb and retain moisture. In order to stop this you must make a barrier on the surface of the wood that is water proof IE: plastic etc. Wood is natural in design to absorb water molecules. In order to seal water out you use a molecule that is larger than water molecule to plug up the lignen cells and the interstitual spaces between cells. To penetrate you use a smaller molecule. Science 101Bullwnkl.

I guess people used oil finishes on gunstocks in order to attract rather than repel moisture. [img]images/icons/crazy.gif" border="0[/img] I still find it difficult to believe that an unfinished gunstock is more impervious to the weather than an oil finish. Are these observations relative to all oil finishes or applicable only to some?

Well, I don't want to dispute anyone here who has given suggestions. Most of the suggestions have been excellent and just show the many different methods employed to finish a stock. Obviously, some work better than others- for instance, I tried the spray on Birchwood Casey Polyurethane a couple of times and gave it up as a waste of time. The coats were just so thin as to be practically nonexistent, and the cans didn't hold enough to finish a stock completely. In fact, I went through 2 cans on one stock and I still think I didn't put enough finish on the stock, after sanding between coats, to make a satisfactory finish. Your milage may vary.As to the issue of moisture, I guess you have to look at moisture and finishes from two different perspectives. While I agree the plastic finishes will seal out the ambient moistures, they also seal IN the existing moisture in the stock which can be anywhere from 7%-12%. As long as this stays stable, you probably will have a stable piece of wood as long as you own it, but in severe conditions, this moisture in the wood can affect the outer finish. Excess heat or cold will cause this moisture to want to migrate out of the stock, with nowhere to go. What happens next can take many forms, blisters under the finish, bubbles in a finish that is not quite completely cured, or just warpage at a point of concentration such as figure in the wood. Or, what is more likely is this scenario. Most stock finishers who use the plastic finishes, don't use them on the interior places, action area, butt stock, etc.. This area is usually done in oil of some sort because you don't require a nice looking finish in these areas. Now, what do you suppose happens when you have a piece of wood with different finish porosity on different sides? The moisture will leave (or collect) faster from the oiled side than the plasticized side, leaving one side of the stock drier (or wetter)than another area. Warpage or wood movement is the inevitable result. Other finishers prefer to use oil finishes of many different types, Linseed oil, varnishes, Tung oil, combinations of all of these, etc... The reasons they have worked for so long is because of the fact that they breathe and the wood has a chance to acclimate slowly to ambient temperatures without sudden changes. Yes, the wood may take on moisture and also bleed off moisture when ambient moisture levels and temperatures dictate it, but the amount is small and usually doesn't affect the stability of the stock because the transfer is gradual and over the entire stock. Obviously, some stock woods, especially highly figured woods, will warp and move more than others. This has little to do with the moisture, as temperatures and other factors can also cause this. A good stockmaker will see this fault in most stock blanks and discard them when they are discovered. Also, consider this- the most highly figured stocks are also the most prized for high-end rifles. These rifles almost always get some type of oil finish and a hand rubbed texture is desired at the end. Keep in mind that the varnishes most used by stockmakers that seem to be more waterproof than the other finishes mentioned, Tru-oil, linseed oil, tung oil, are also oil based. I am definitely no expert on this subject, but I have learned a bunch from this thread and many others like it on this and other boards. Many have contributed and I appreciate all the different opinions on this subject, especially Ray Atkinson who is always generous with his many years of experience. I won't say I disagree directly with any one on this thread, but I will have to give some thought to some of the suggestions. If nothing else, to see if it fits my methods and needs at the moment. Take care- Sheister

Thanks a lot Shiester, Your post makes a lot of sense to me.

I've been out killing fish and have not stopped in for a couple days and am heading out again real soon, but have a few things to add here. Hope I have not stepped on any toes too hard.Oil, even cured completely has an affinity to water vapor, actually frank water as well; therefore the admonition not to put wet cups on the oil finished side table at Grandma's house. It will only absorb a given amount, and then no more, if it is used as a ship finish. Some will migrate through the finish and be absorbed by the wood, but if the wood is always wet it simply reaches an equilibrium point and stays there.Now when the same piece of oil finished wood is out in the air and subjected to constantly changed relative humidity it takes up and gives off water all the time. And because the relative humidity never stablizes, it is always moving.On the linseed oil thread under gunsmithing I think I remember going into more detail about it.I hope is was understood I was not suggesting a piece of unfinished wood would soak up less frank water than a piece of oiled wood, because that is clearly not the case.Sheister made some excellent points about highly-figured woods moving around more than straight grained woods, but one very nice exception is tight fiddle-back figure which actually is quite a bit more stable than straight figure. Fiber lengths are longer, the wood is harder and stronger, in curly, than the same species when it is straight.The logic of finishing different areas of a stock differently escapes me, also.Another concept which helps understanding wood and water is the difference between bound and free water. Green wood is full of water, sometimes as much as 200% (water content is usually measured as a per centage of the oven-dry weight of the piece of wood. Hence a 1# oven-dry piece which weighed 2# when wet had a moisture content of 100%)When the wood is dried, free water leaves first. It is what is inside the cells, vessels and interstices. This water removal does not affect the size of the wood, therefore there is no warpage as the free water leaves. At about 25-35% the bound water starts to leave. It was electro-chemically attached to molecules of lignin in the cell walls, or solvent for various extractives in the wood, mostly in the vessels.The removal of bound water is where the going gets tough in wood drying as this is where rot and stain often occur and where drying defects start. If the wood dries too fast the surface gets dry enough to take a set and when the inside dries it shrinks and causes stresses, up to and commonly including honey-combing inside the wood.Different woods dry differently for a million different reasons. The biggest reason for the differences is the pore size of the wood; gums, resins and other extractives present in those pores; figure, grain run-out and knots; thickness of the blank and many, many more. The one thing Sheister said which I hope is a misunderstanding is the moisture content of his blanks. A piece of wood reaches atmospheric moisture content outdoors of about 12-15% (vs. oven-dry) but then needs to be dried to 6% and then if kept there for quite some time, years help, the wood will stablize at the lower moisture content and become much more stable, even with bigger swings in moisture content. Each time a piece of wood cycles, even over a range of a per cent or two of water content, it reduces its tendency to move. That is why old stock blanks are prefered over more recently cut ones.Sheister is absolutely correct about an oil finish being the right finish for the custom guns and the nearly uniform use of them by the high-end gun makers. Two points here though; my finish looks just like them, because it is an oil finish; these are the same guys who often call glass-bedding heresy.This has rambled and gotten much too long, thanks for bearing with me. No offense intended or taken. art

Art, I hope we can respectfully agree to disagree on this topic. I was at my stock duplicator's place when he measured the moisture content of my blank and several of his best blanks- some worth several thousand dollars- and the moisture content of mine was about 13%, his were anywhere from 8% to 12%. All these blanks, including mine had been stored inside for many years. Mine had actually been in a heated shop for at least 5 years. The stocks in the stockmaker's shop were dry and anywhere from 5 to 30 years old. I have found that most furniture makers like their wood to be around 6%-8% moisture content or maybe a bit above. The reason being that most homes change temperature/moisture levels often and lower than this will cause moisture migration into the woods which will in turn cause the wood to move and warp. Wood floor installers also insist on these moisture levels and will leave the wood in the home to be installed sometimes for several weeks until the moisture level stabilizes at ambient levels, as I do with furniture wood in my workshop. Usually, this is about the best guarantee of avoiding problems later on. The electronic moisture meter he uses reads at least 1" into the blank, so surface moisture is not the only measurement and he wouldn't trust it anyway. Moisture changes are constant in an oil finished stock, that is a given. Also, the oil used on your grandmother's furniture is definitely not the same oil as that used on fine stocks. Interior grade finishes don't have the same solvents, plasticizers, or waterproof fillers included in exterior grade finishes. I have and do use the plastic finishes on stocks, in fact my stocks are about 50/50 oil finishes and polyurethane/varnish finishes. I find the "plastic" finishes to be slightly harder to work with, but beyond that, I enjoy rubbing in the oil finishes by hand and watching the wood transform a small step at a time. Art, I seem to be reading in your post that moisture just pours through an oil finish, as long as the wood will absorb it. Actually, it has been my experience that even in damp weather (not monsoon weather we experience here at times) the wood will absorb very little moisture- certainly not enough to cause major problems, but possibly enough to cause the barrel channel to move enough to contact the barrel. Another thing I have heard from many sources- once the wood is dry, very little moisture will be absorbed through the sides of the lignen fibers, most of the moisture absorbed by wood is through the end grain,since the fibers are like long straws and hollow. So sealing the end grain is mandatory when sealing a stock properly. I submit that whatever stock finish you use will work perfectly if applied properly, taken care of properly, and maintained. If you are in a location where severe weather is commonplace and your rifles are subjected to it, you should definitely consider one of the Poly or Epoxy finishes for your stock- or buy a plastic stock and stop worrying about it! Heck, my elk rifle wears a plastic stock and it doesn't hurt my feelings one bit! LOL- [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]- Sheister

Thank you for all the information. My question would be this: how will all of these small differences, in moisture content affect the performance of my rifles, with walnut stocks? How can one mount the action, into the stock, to minimize the changes in the wood? Art, the two boys next door are just hammering the silvers, at Ship Creek. Every day they come by with a limit and very nice sized fish, for inlet silvers.pak

Pak, In your area, I would probably go with the Poly finishes due to the amount of moisture you will inevitably encounter. The most important thing to avoid problems, no matter which finish you use, is to be absolutely sure that all the surfaces of the wood are completely sealed with the same finish you are using on the outside of the stock. That includes under the butt pad, the barrel, action, trigger area, the bolt slot and recesses for the bolt stops, and the action screw holes. Even a small slip up in this area will cause more wood movement and problems than you want to deal with.- Sheister

Sheister No hard feelings, anyone may believe what they wish. My background in wood technology is in the drying end of it as much as anywhere, and even patented a process used extensively in your area to dry difficult species.If you have seen kiln-dried tanoak or madrone lumber on the market, it went through my process. Lots of other species get it as well.I personally shudder to think about a stock built at 13% moisture content. Frankly, I question the accuracy of the meter used. HoW is it that lumber stored at my house, and houses and shops all over, produce wood which equalizes at 6-8%, yet the duplicator's doesn't? I would test the meter with a piece of similar wood (and do so on a regular basis) and see what is up. Simply test a small piece, weigh it, oven-dry it and reweigh it.Realize too that a meter is measuring electrical resistance in a piece of wood, simply because the resistance is the same does not mean the wood is the same moisture content, it only gets you close.You make a good point about the perception I'm making it sound like there is an open flood gate. Obviously the absorption and release of water is fairly slow, through the finish. But it is faster than when the wood is bare, when compared to an oil-finished stock. It is enough to cause plenty of problems in a fore-end prone to moving.The concept of wood absorbing water vapor through the end grain only is entirely false, and actually weighted to the side grain when the extra surface area of the end grain is taken into account. Wood absorbs and releases water in all directions, but moves differentially in each direction, with changes in moisture.As far as the finish you choose, realize that I am talking about the oil component of the finish. Most finishes have lots of plastic in them, but that does not have much effect on how the oil reacts in the finish.Got guests at the door, will add more later.Hope I am not annoying you Sheister, wish you could have made it up for that fishing trip, then you could have seen what I am talking about with my epoxy finish. art

Art, this is getting interesting but I think we are "bending" the thread a little. Maybe I can make it next year and we can discuss it over a beer or something. Suffice it to say that the blank was 13% when turned, I would think that the several weeks since being turned, setting in my dry, heated shop would have brought it down a notch or two. About 8-9% seems to be the ambient working moisture levels around here, I guess that's what we get for living in a rainforest most of the year. Once I move to Central Oregon next year, I'm sure I'll be seeing drier conditions and then I can test your theories a little better. I'm always open to learning something new. Take care- Sheister

Pak: It depends on how much work you really want to go through. There are gun makers specializing in basically hollowing out a fancy grained walnut stock and filling it with inert plastics and steel to basicaly give the feel and look of wood and the rigidity and strength of synthetics.......Time and money are your hurdles......Tex

Art, I have a quick question for you since you seem to have a world of experience in this subject. Most of the gunsmiths I know prefer to work with air dried wood instead of kiln dried. I've heard many different reasons for this, usually boiling down to the fact that kiln drying deforms the cell walls of the wood, which can weaken it and make it more prone to breakage and warpage. I've always wondered-is this an old wives' tale passed down through generations of stockmakers or is there some basis of fact in this belief? What is your take on this subject?- Sheister

PAK Only have a minute here, but apologize for not answering your posts more directly. A finished stock is a tough thing to do very much to, other than glass bedding and free-floating. If you care to give a call or stop by I would be happy to show you what I know, and it would be lots easier than trying to type it all out. I'm in the book and live real close to Hoppy's old place.Sheiester Kiln drying is a method for moving wood through a process as cost-effectively as possible, with only as much degrade as the end users will tolerate. The process of speeding the drying does not do anything for the wood. It is absolutely an inferior product, under all circumstances, when compared to PROPERLY air-dried wood.The problem is simply that stresses are created in the wood by rapid drying, over time, these stresses cause change in the wood which translates to warpage or checking, or both.The damage is caused by the wood reaching about 6% moisture content and taking a set. This set can occur at any level within the wood, even in a layer within the wood. The relaxing stages in the usual kiln schedule are designed to reduce these, but are used just enough to reduce damage to a tolerable level. Wood which has never reached 6% is still moving quite a bit. There have been some classic wood movement studies done which graphed the movement. They are amazing and telling.The wood is such a minor part of the whole cost of the new stock, when compared to the time devoted, that I would not use kiln-dried, except under very unusual circumstances, which I could not even imagine at this point in time. I try never to say never, but using kiln-dried comes real close to being a never situation, to me. art

I am a complete novice when it comes to wood, heck, we don't even have trees on the prairies.That said I got the bug to restock a few rifles and bought some walnut. All three rifles were single shots, 2 H&R and a Browning B 78. After sanding and steel wool I loooked for some oil and wanting to avoid the hassle of preparing linseed oil I grabbed a can of Watco Danish Oil finish. It says it is for interior use only but even though my rifles are used in rain etc. they are not stored outside. I found the finish to be very durable and pleasing to the eye. This finish is said to polymerize with the wood and does repel moisture to a satisfactory degree in my climate. The material goes on easy and I wiped any excess off 20 minutes or so after applying. There are several tints available and I choose "fruitwood" as the "walnut" stain is far to dark. Fruitwood gave a slight highlite to the grain and avoided the "muddy" look of darker stains.I gave the stocks up to 15 coats rubbing each down with a coarse wool sock in between. Not a custom finish but superior to factory finishes.

JJ; This is a long thread and I've skimmed over parts of it, so if this has been mentioned, I didn't see it. If you use an oil finish like True Oil be sure and let the first coat dry thouroughly. No matter how heavy or light you apply that first coat, set the gun aside in a dry warm place for at least a couple days before you add a second coat. If the first coat is not completely dry when you add the second the finish will gum up and you will never get the finish to harden properly.Dan Johnson

Sitka Deer,If you don't mind,I have a question for you.I need to finish the stock on an M1 Garand. The rifle is already glass bedded, so I'm reluctant to use oil as the finishing agent. How suitable would your epoxy finishes be in this application ? I'm also looking for a matte to semi-glossy finish. There are too many brilliantly shiny competition rifles out there for my taste.Regards, Scott

JJ--Back to my original answer to your question. I have never had a problem with steel wool leaving pieces of metal in the stock but I use the steel wool for whiskering and then had used a tack cloth to remove all the standing dust so perhaps the tack cloth removed some small steel splinters. I have only done about 6 stocks but I still stand by the Flecto Verathane as a finish. If you followed some of the advice given previously, you can see how applying 20 coats of tru oil and then waiting a day or two for things to dry, you could wait a month of two before the thing was completely dry and finished. The Verathane dries quickly and can be applied easily without fear of drips etc. You must let it dry however, in a place with no dust as dust will adhere to any finish while it is still wet. The comment about using 400-600 grit paper is also right on. The very fine paper cuts so little wood that it really only takes just a few minutes to use the 400-600 paper and it will impove your finish. Look at it like this--each finer paper should remove all the traces of scratches or imperfections left by the prior sand paper. Try the Flecto, you'll like it.

Scott There are no compatability problems with epoxy and oil. The answer will vary with the finish on the stock, if there is one. The linseed oil thread under gunsmithing should answer most of your questions, but feel free to ask here, or email me for more specific answers.Virtually any finish can be turned into an eggshell luster job with the application of rotten stone in mineral oil, on a soft cloth.Murf Watco water-spots readily, and does not compare favorably with other finishes in terms of durability, toughness, or hardness.Polymerization is the process that oil finishes cure through. Hydrocarbon chains link and cross link through several different chemical means, but they do not link with the wood, beyond the mechanical grip applied to the wood.Steel wool is a very bad idea on stocks, except possibly the first step in the final buff-out. Any bits not removed have the potential to create a very ugly mark, at any time.Rolly When Tru-oil is applied in the very thin coats it should be applied in, it cures extremely rapidly, allowing 3-4 coats a day. Once you have 20 or so coats applied, I like to let it cure thoroughly before buffing-out, but that still can be done in a few weeks, or less.The varathane is a reasonable finish, though it builds too much for my taste and makes sharp corners hard to maintain. art

Sitka, Shiester, On a scale of 1-10, each assuming that their favorite finish is a 10; in comparison how would you rate a factory finished Remington, so that I can get an order of magnitude on what we are talking about? My question only relates to weather protection and durability and excludes aesthetics. How would you rate a straight tung oil finish on the stock both inside and out? How about a boiled linseed oil finish? Thanks

Thunderstick, Sitka can probably answer this better than me but I'll give it a try.Considering that the finish on Remington stocks is geared to production and a nice shiny finish as more of a sales tool than weather protection, they work fairly well if taken care of. However, I have owned several Remingtons that the finish has been damaged or otherwise been worn off in spots and the water damage is almost immediate. In other words, the wood has only a surface protection and no protection IN the wood. I would give these finishes about a 5 on your scale.Straight Tung oil and Boiled Linseed oil are about the same, but in a different manner. They are completely dependent on being totally absorbed into the surfaces of the wood for the protection from water, so this portion of the finish must be carefully attended to. If absorption isn't complete, these finishes are not much better than bare wood. Also,if you are using straight Tung oil or Boiled linseed oil without the newer additives, plasticizers, and other carrier solvents, you will probably end up with a beautiful finish that doesn't necessarily protect well by itself. Use of Tru-oil and other newer finishes with additives will enhance the protection qualities of the finish and can still be thinned properly to permeate the wood in the initial applications. However, even with the best application, these finishes will not come even close to the epoxy finishes in water proofing your wood. I would give them a 6 or 7 on your scale. If you want a really weatherproof finish, you really need to apply the epoxy finishes over several coats of thinned oil in the wood. If you like the rubbed oil look, it can be achieved with a little work by using the methods mentioned by Sitka in the post above. It is a lot of work but if you hunt in monsoon conditions it is definitely worth it. Keep in mind that most of my advice above is geared to JJ's question and the use of the gun in question- which will see no real moisture exposure.- Sheister

Gentlmen, I recently bought a beautifully stocked early Kimber 82 Hornet "S" series 1 of 500. From what I've been told and read it was Kimber's first attempt at making a "fancy" rifle. In any event it really made me question my past insistance on stainless steel barreled actions and McMillan fiberglass stocks. I thought I was "growing" to appreciate wood... That is until I started reading about what it takes to "properly" finish a walnut stock, to say nothing of procuring a suitable blank, having it made into a stock, and then fitting it to the barreled action. After all of this I am slowing moving back to just how much I appreciate the simplicity of stainless steel barreled actions and McMillan stocks PAINTED with epoxy paint. Too much money and headache for my use. Intended as a good natured comment and not as criticizm of the blessed walnut;-). Best, Matt.

Matt Having trouble deciding whether you should be burned at the stake or simply stoned, or are you? [img]images/icons/laugh.gif" border="0[/img] art

Thunderstick My answer is pretty close to Sheister's. The lacquered stocks lose terribly in aesthetics, but can be improved dramaticly with rottenstone and mineral oil. As you were not asking about aesthetics, though, I would call them a 4, mostly because they are so tough to repair and look right when done.They are quite weather tight until damaged, then they are useless, and actually wick under the finish.There is no real difference between straight tung oil and straight linseed oil. Either or both are commonly used in various finishes. If the container says "finish" rather than identifying the oil directly, it is a blend of oil and varnish, usually with waxes thrown in, too.I would always reverse the oil and epoxy, from Sheister's suggestion. The epoxy does not look as good as the oil and is harder to repair. As the oil will sit on the epoxy just fine, I always do it that way. Most of the work involved is in getting the epoxy just right. What could be better than a finish which will keep the wood stable, repair easily and look just like an eggshell luster oil finish?Varathane 66 is a fair finish, and would be my first choice if I was taking a short cut. It is significantly more water-proof than plain linseed or tung. Tru-oil is close to as good. art

Art, There was no psychopharmacology involved with my previous statement. That is to say none that I recall, and that's all I really care to recall;-). I actually thought I was turning the corner and then I began to reach that super saturated state and it all just went to hell. Too much information on too simple a subject. Either become an apprentice to a master stock maker or simply order a blessed McMillan. Who knows, a few years, and a bit more refinement and I might be back in the walnut camp. For now the Kimbers will rest in the safe until I return from Cambridge. Best, Matt.

Matt OK, so it wasn't something you were on. Could it have been something you were off? [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] Proper wood, properly prepared, serves just fine under almost all conditions. Add such a huge edge for the aesthetics involved and there is nothing like it.When I was young my father made us hunt with lesser guns than his, because he didn't want us beating them up and told us so. Later he told me that was right up near the top of the big mistakes list.Telling a kid you don't care if a particular gun gets beat up is tantamount to a license to vandalize. If he didn't care, why should we?Had we really enjoyed looking at the pretty guns, and gotten to hunt with them, we would never have dared ding one and that would have increased our awareness many-fold.I don't think you are over-working a kid's brain to have them think about the gun, too. He also saw it as an increased awareness about everything to do with the gun, such as which way the muzzle is pointed.Guess I got off track... now, where did I leave my medication? art