I did an experiment this past season on 3 separate hunts. 2 buck deer and 1 antelope doe hunt to see if there would be a different result taking game with a heart shot versus blowing up the lungs.

For the purpose of these 2 comparisons, I’m not saying one is better than the other. Though, I definitely have a preference now.

I know some guys like to break axles and bone to reduce the chances of a track. I’m not writing about which is the best of the 3 for hunting...Strictly an observation I watched on 3 animals all roughly the same size, taking direct hits to their heart.

Me, I try to tear up lungs with my shot. I’ve had better one shot drt on game doing it. It’s also a larger target area and because my typical shots can go long, I work that area almost exclusively on game.

After reading some threads and seeing good results from heart shots. I wanted to see for myself what would happen. (Yes, I’ve shot animals in the heart before, but it was accidental)

My Blacktail Buck...Results, took a wrecker hit to his heart that put him into a full 25-35 yard sprint. He acted like he’d been stung, then off he ran until he piled himself up into a hard spot for me to get to him.

Antelope Doe...Results, exactly the same as the Blacktail. Thrashed heart, another sprint of 40-50 yards then piles up dead.

Whitetail Buck...Results, blew half the heart away. Buck jumped straight up like it had also been stung and sprinted maybe 50 yards before dropping.

All animals shot with the same rifle, ammo/bullet.

Is it accurate to say that pump shooting an animal will typically produce these kinds of results where the animal is basically dead on its hoofs but still gonna show you he’s a track star?

😎

I have had both do the death run. A person needs to give that 10 seconds for an animal to die.Each animal uses that 10 seconds differently.
I like the double lung as I usually mess up more meat with a heart shot by catching a bit of the leg.On the other hand a lot of guys only hit one lung and an animal go go a long ways with that. Which usually ends up with the cause as bullet failure.

Over a lifetime I've shot both and admittedly with heavy for caliber bullets to avoid a lot of bloodshot meat in the shoulder area. The only difference that I've personally seen is that the heart shot deer put more blood on the ground sooner than a lung shot deer hit higher up on the body. Run distances have been similar.

I just try for the approximate center of the vitals, from whatever angle I've got. If it's a broadside shot, I want to be at the back edge of the shoulder, about 40% of the way up. Most margin of error if something takes a sudden step and it doesn't wreck much meat on something I plan to eat. If I'm dealing with boar hogs that I'm not eating, I'll try to catch a shoulder, which often puts them down.

IME a heart shot animal will sprint and then die convincingly within a football field.

A double lung shot animal does the same, maybe making it a little further. Bigger target, more variables etc etc.

I prefer hitting the vessels just above the heart, my theory being it keeps pumping the juices faster.
I have annecdotal evidence that supports this, but with a sample size of (far) less than a thousand, its just that.

I shoot slow heavy lead bullets as a rule. ML sabots, conicals, and shotgun slugs. Havent used a centerfire rifle on deer since Reagan was in his first term.

Other stuff I've observed...
Deer arent hard to kill. I like two holes. The only consistently and reliable way to drop them instantly with zero steps to recovery is CNS, though I have definitely gotten DRT zstr results with heart and lung hits as well.

I like for animals to run 59 yards or so with a blown up heart.
I think the muscles pump more blood out of the body thru
the damaged heart instead of the heart just pumping blood back
thru the system if hit else where.
I have found little need for a blood trail when they die w/i 100 yards.

Animals running 50-100 yards in my country typically means bad things for me for recovery.
😎

I ain’t that good of a shot. But I’ve had stellar results by sticking to the advice I used to give clients when I did a little guiding. “ Shoot the in the front half”.

Pharseller has always had the best advice. Want a dead animal? Shoot-em in the ear hole.

That still cracks me up.

😂😎

Folks don’t understand this unless they’ve hunted around here a fair amount. I’m a shoulder shooter

By "shoulder shot" are you referring to a bullet through the scapula, or actually breaking the humerus?
As a follow up, by "lung shot" do you mean way back several inches behind the shoulder?

I aim tight behind the shoulder (if broadside) to catch the front of the lungs, sometimes hitting the scapula if the animal is standing a certain way. Sometimes I also catch the heart with that shot if they're angled slightly or standing with their near leg supporting all their weight.

To answer your question, yes. IME a heart shot critter will often give the 30-50 yard death run. Not always though and rarely any longer. Animals shot far back in the lungs often run a few hundred yards before dying, which is why I avoid that danger area. I have seen zero difference between hitting the front of the lungs and hitting the heart and/or scapula (which I call a shoulder shot). They sometimes run 50 yards, and they sometimes drop on the spot. Even the few times I have accidentally smashed the humerus, hitting further forward than I like, the critter often runs a short distance, and I also absolutely DESTROY some of the shoulder meat.

There's no one size fits all approach....

I am with Judman, I like a fairly high shoulder shot.. The animal goes down right there.. It ruins some meat, but I am not real fond of shoulder meat to begin with... Sometimes a finisher is require from the 6 gun if the shot is too high.. They are disabled, but unable to escape...

I did some Springbok culling last year and made a conscious effort to alter my shot placement and note the results. The sample size was small but they were shot at virtually identical distances using the same load. I was not surprised that shooting them in the shoulder piled them up faster. I always try to break some bones if I can.

Same here judman. I'll be dmned if I'm gonna let a 1300-1700 lb bull moose make the 10 second dash into the river or into a swamp hole. I aim square on the front end.

I just finished my jack o connor "the hunting rifle book" couple months ago.

No thanks to 3000 fps 270 winchester, blood shot mess through the ribs of a moose.

I'll take a 250-300 grain "controversial medium" square through the front end, any day of the week and eat right up to the bullet hole. Its my back and knees.

Mainer you sound like good old Elmer.. He was an excellent hunter and shooter..

Put me in the camp of preferring a high shoulder shot. I've had more hits like this result in quick dead animals than any other, unless, obviously, a head or "earhole" shot.

100% spot on.It's the guys that try the 3000fps with a frangible bullet and the lose the entire quarter and sometimes the off shoulder too,losing 20-30 pounds of meat

Your test is way shy on data to draw meaningful conclusions. As I got older, and over almost 50 years killed many big game animals and watched lots of others others shot as well, in grading these two types of shots I get “I dunno.” I’ve seen bull elk drop immediately with a lung shot, and have seen them move off a hundred yards or so before dying. Similar with whitetails, mule deer and caribou. Even antelope. I have had a heart shot mule deer go down immediately, and a couple others run a death circle of from 50-90 yards. I am likewise dubious of grading shots/cartridges/bullets by the speed at which an animal expires.

I think it helpful if the bullet exits, but I’m not sure I can prove that one either. As somebody else said, I consider the heart/lung area to be one target, and center of mass means usually a lung shot. I also feel better about a bullet that I know will drive through a shoulder if necessary to get to the heart/lung area.

As in many other things, the older I get the more cynical I am about conclusions.

Answered, directly after reading your OP Beav - have not read further comments - Yet !

Yes, a heart shot animal always runs !

Also, add a question of my own.

Heart is great meat, why intentionally waste it ?

Then again, I feel the same about shoulders !

Right in the "slats" for "almost" everything I/we shoot.

My $0.02, others MMV.

& that's OK !

Yes !

Aren't African animals lungs, typically further forward, than Nth American game ?

I have had them run if I did hit the shoulder (one shoulder anyway), solid through the lungs with a fast destructive bullet, with the heart destroyed and have had them go down so quick I lost them in the scope with the same hits. If they run I like good blood to follow. On my last lease I became a spine/neck shooter making most hits in front of the shoulder, the spine at the shoulder blades or just back of there. The hogs and coyotes would destroy any deer that spent the night dead on the ground. That said I would say over all that I got the fastest kills using soft 150 grain bullets in the 30 calibers and 130's in my 270. I liked ballistic tips especially. Don't really care if I lose a shoulder either, especially if it means I don't have to crawl through low thorns and thick stuff to recover the deer. I also shot a lot of game with Hornady spire points which seemed to make a bloodier trail for some reason. If I don't have to sweat thick brush and thorns I prefer to hit them halfway up just behind the shoulder and let them run a bit to pump the blood out of their system.

Yessir. Low, through the shoulder is a heart shot for those guys. I did find that if you put a good bullet through the heart/lung area on those plains game, they died just as easily as any other big game animal. One thing though, is that on marginal hits those African trackers are the dambdest thing you've ever seen when they go to work . I made a couple of very marginal shots and those guys were truly amazing, never seen anything like their ability to find wounded animals.

I prefer a little forward of this entrance for a DRT kill, see the nice yellow dot.

This buck was on the move, stopped and just started to move again as the trigger broke.

Still a 50 or so yard death run pouring blood.

2.99 breakfast

In a perfect world, I prefer a high shoulder shot into the brachial plexus. That said, I'll punch the lungs without a second thought, if that's where my focus and instinct takes me first, in a given situation.

Whelenized

My post wasn’t meant as any meaningful conclusion, nor was my “data” trying to prove conclusively that heart v lung was good or gooder.

You want facts? Read a non-fiction book. I’m talking hunting and hunting has variables.

😎

Paul, We grub the heart too. I do pass on the liver though. I can fry liver up and it looks absolutely amazing. I just don’t dig the flavor.

We still pack it out unless it’s ruined. We have a hunting pard, Mike, who loves it...We call the liver “Mikey Meat”.

Grins....😎

Jud,

That’s a stopper shot....

I always try, if the shot angle is there to hit tight behind the shoulder. I’m not crying if I’m hitting 3”-4” behind a shoulder either.

I got a pard who seems to like center punching his animals in the middle. I’m not a fan of that placement. I do hold a leg really good and try to lean back as far as I can, when he’s opening up his furs. Grins 😎

What frog sticker is that?

"Is it accurate to say that pump shooting an animal will typically produce these kinds of results where the animal is basically dead on its hoofs but still gonna show you he’s a track star?"

To answer your question. Yes.

Elk hoof skeleton knife made by Godogs57.

I have the same blade.

😎

You dubbed those an experiment and on the basis of this formed preferences. I just question the point, certainly not flaming you (as you did me).

And while hunting definitely has lots of variables, much of the technical stuff that interests most of us (including terminal ballistics) can be approached with a data-based approach.

And on the flip side, lacking information that would be helpful should certainly not preclude discussions such as these. In fact, these are useful in actually gathering more info from folks here.

Yes I think heart shot critters usually give a death run.

I prefer to shoot them through the lungs. 1/2 to 2/3 up the body with enough space between my bullet entrance and the shoulder as not to wreck any meat. I have actually had quite a few drt's with this shot.
I enjoy eating the heart to much to shoot them there.

As a side note, I believe elk die easier than deer. This is from a sample size of 25 elk and probably twice that many deer. Whitetail and mule deer both. Of course there always exceptions, some animals just seem way tougher than they ought to.

I prefer to eat the heart so I try to avoid shooting it. When in doubt......

Shoot them in the pumpkin
upload image for forum

Double lunger for me......

Exit:



Exit:





Hard quarter away gets everything:

I take what I can get. Rarely is it a broadside shot and the way deer come into the call its usually at an angle. I usually hit some meaningful bone in shoulder which ends things quickly. Bone and lead fragments plus the actual bullet blowing through the lungs does the trick.

Hoping to Whelenize a spring bear if our doofus governor ever opens it up..... gonna go old school with my old .35 Whelen for deer and/or elk this fall, too! Happy Trails

When I was young and impressionable they seemed to behave as if the heart shot hurt them more, but I didn't notice it killing or stopping them any quicker.

Very interesting opinion.

No they dont.

I have had plenty of DRT/not one step shots that hit the heart or just slightly above it.

Of course YMMV, but I avoid "always" statements.





Ive found that:

A heart shot deer will usually run 50 or so yards before it passes out and dies. bleeding a lot along the way. They sometimes drop within a few steps.

A lung shot deer will usually run less than 100 yards if you poke both lungs. Lower holes tend to bleed more. 50 yards isnt uncommon.

A CNS shot deer drops fast. I've found that anatomy isnt always peoples strong suit , and so "shoulders" mean different things to different hunters. A shoulder is the joint of the humerus and the scapula. On a deer, thats pretty low and forward. Most people taking a high shoulder shot are refering to an upper scapula. It drops then "now" because the spine runs behind it.

After a half a lifetime of the classic behind the shoulder "1/3 up & an inch behind the crease" heart/lung shooting, out of curiosity I took 100% upper scapula "high shoulder" shots on all deer for a few years. I found that do tend to drop faster, and in many instances these shots also hit the spine. I also found more ruined meat.

I like high shoulder drops them.

I shoot a high shoulder shot. I hunt close to the fence. They gone if they jump the fence!

This. Don't like crawling on hands and knees through prickly pear and rattlesnake country. BTDT.

Beaver10 & Judman:
Top of the morning to you both, I hope the day's as nice and bright in your area of the west as it is a few hours inland and a few more north here this morning.

I'm not sure if either one of you gentlemen has ever been in our area of the world or close - we look not too much different than say Lake Chelan country more or less.

Since I've been trying to resize some photos to make them fit Rick's photopail thing, I'll dispense with my usual typing and try to do a few thousand words this way.

If I look out the window over my right shoulder, I'm seeing the vineyard across the valley in the center here.


This is just up the road behind the house. There's two rams in the photo - sorry it was getting dark. I've shot about 10 mulies just on the other side of the top rocks above the ram. It's a little bit of a plateau there - but things do get sporty if the mulies bail off the mountain....


One valley over where we chase mostly bears and mulies - though we did see a whitetail up there last fall - who knew?


While there are flat spots, things can get western quick if they make it into the feeder creeks. On another forum recently I told the tale of how buddy's buck bounced down off the cliffs, broke off one side on the first or second bounce and then got lodged into a forked tree about 4' in the air, but like Pooh in Rabbit's doorway "well and truly stuck"..

This one was hit with an 80gr TTSX from a .250AI and made 3 steps. The off side scapula was cracked and the bullet found within the tissue under the hide.


This one buggered right off over the side of the mountain. Made it at least 100 yards... was hit at maybe 20 yards. Same load.


Truly, after being there either behind the butt plate or watching from the sidelines on more than 100 deer/bear/sheep here in southern BC, I really prefer things do not run out of my sight, you know?

All the best to you all this week gentlemen. Stay well.

Dwayne

It was impressive. Buffalo.

I aim for a spot at the top of the middle third, just above and to the rear of the elbow joint. That’s if I have the time and a good rest. Most of the time I aim for the volleyball superimposed over the edge of the shoulder and extending rearward, equidistant between top and bottom. I ain’t too picky then.

I shot the top off a big 5x5 bull’s heart several years ago, it was lying loose in the chest cavity when I opened him up. At the shot he stumbled forward about 10 feet, like a drunk, and fell over.

There’s no telling what an animal is gonna do, unless you shoot him in the ear hole.




P

Mark, A little late with my 2 cents, but it’s always been through the lungs for me.....preferably “both” lungs. It’s a much more forgiving “target area”, than the heart, and.... those that I’ve hit through the lungs.....expired pretty quickly, while leaving a good, blood/foam trail! memtb

If I'm doing it right, I take a shot that goes through both lungs and takes off the top of the heart as it is going through. The result is either a deer that falls over, or it runs only enough that I can see its hooves in the air when I'm standing at where I shot it.

50 years ago, I was hunting in north Idaho, same kind of thick brush. I had a small WT sneak in on me. I shot it with a quartering toward me shot, putting it just inside the point of the shoulder. It only ran 50 yds and I heard it crash in the dry leaves. It was getting dark and I couldn't find it. I went back the next morning and I couldn't even find the exact spot where I was. I lost a dead deer. I guess I could just call it a dumb beginners lesson to carry flagging tape.

In general, when I heart shot or when I double lung them they do not make it 100 yards. I have had at least one deer manage just past 200 yards after cutting the heart loose with a 2 inch broad head. I never touched the heart per se, but it did pass just over the heart and severed all the great vessels. I had one that I passed a broadhead top to bottom through the heart managed just over 100 yards. I had one deer that jumped the string and I hit it dead broadside, but a couple inches in front of the diaphragm manage just over a mile. I had another that was a picture perfect broadside shot just behind the shoulder manage about 400 yards. One buck, tight behind the shoulder dead broadside went 200 yards. By the time I got there he was down but still alive. After giving him the better part of an hour to die he managed to get up and make it another 250 yards before he died. I have had them drop where they stood with both heart shots and double lung shots, with both an arrow and with a bullet.

I have given up speculating how far they will go after I shoot them and just make sure I am prepared to follow them as long as I have to in order to make dinner out of them. I don't get to have any say in how far they go if I do not CNS them with a rifle. A couple years back I shot a nice doe with the crossbow. I hit her right under the neck and above the sternum, facing me dead on. She did not bleed well at all. She managed 700 yards total and it took me almost a full 24 hours to find her. The arrow did not hit bone. It did not penetrate the chest. I could find no major vessels it cut. There was a large opening in the hide where it hit and minor muscle damage under that. No blood inside the chest. Near as I could tell not a fatal wound. I saw the arrow hit where it was aimed and come out behind her and bury into the ground. During gutting and butchering it was obvious she had bled out, but the last 400 yards she traveled, 200 of it I could find ZERO blood and 200 was mainly tiny specks of blood every 10 feet or so. Probably wouldn't have amounted to 2 ounces total. If it wasn't for a crow showing interest I doubt I would have found her.

You can't explain them all, and you sure as hell cannot predict what will happen after the shot. A good guess might cover most of them but enough head scratchers happen that it's humbling.

Mostly double lung for me, but I take what I can get. I’m not picky and neither is my bullet. Even our timber isn’t that thick around here so a death run usually isn’t a very big deal. I don’t get much that makes it very far. In 2018 I shot a bull elk through the lungs and then again in front of the “back” shoulders 😀 as he ran off(Hey it’s what I could get and I shoot until they are down). He made it maybe a little over a 100 yards, in a wide open meadow, and I was stunned. Hadn’t had a runner like that in...I don’t remember when.

Was raised to shoot for double lung and still today that is my objective. I have dropped down slightly to take a heart shot when possible and with a 25-06 and Berger bullets (I know I'm not getting an exit past 50 yards or so) I've never had one go more than 50 yards. Down here in SC I'll pass on a shoulder shot...deer are small enough already and throwing a front quarter away drops the meat take even lower. Elk, moose and mountains might make me change my mind but sticking with with heart/lungs for now.

This. Except I generally try to avoid the shoulder if I can. Spine shot just behind the head is my fav, tho. If I can get it.

Whatever is the most sure shot under the circumstances.

I once deliberately spine a moose just forward of the pelvic girdle, as his whole front end was behind a spruce, and the cow he was with was about to bolt. Cover was heavy enough that I was 6 feet from him before I could get the finishing shot.

Surprisingly, I only lost about 6 inches of backstrap.