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Every once in a while I've seen a reference to this article, so finally looked it up.

Bruce
Thanks! Hadn't read this before and big bore fever has been in my mind lately. This cured me for now...
tag
Loved the article. I've read everything that Bell wrote that I can find.
Bell had a privilege that “none” of us will never have! Almost unlimited time and opportunities to take game and no lost money on licenses when the animal is wounded and lost!

If you’re paying for a guided, potentially “once in a lifetime” hunt…..use the largest, most powerful cartridge that you are proficient/comfortable with!

If you’re on a “cull hunt” and is legal…..hell, use a .22 LR. That should help “red line” your “fun meter”! memtb
i have seen small bullets kill better and faster than big bullets , 17 Remington i have killed some animals very quickly but my favorite cartridge is a 257 Weatherby mag. with a good 100 gr. bullet with high velocity around 3600 - 4000 FPS. best bullets i have used in the past were 100 gr. Nosler partition and 100 gr. Swift A-Frame bullets both were accurate and held together when an animal was shoot and died very quickly , i have used these 2 bullets for the last 20 some years. this year 2022 i plan on using some 103 gr. Hammer Hunter bullets this year that are also accurate with average velocities 3680 FPS. the best thing about smaller caliber bullets is much less recoil and a flatter trajectory for easier accuracy in the field at unknown distances when taking the shot and killing the animal , you don`t always have time to set up and use a rangefinder that`s when a good guess with kentucky windage comes into play and a fast small bore caliber bullet is a advantage. 20 year`s ago i was the only guy that used a 257 Weatherby mag. where i hunted but not any more most friends now use this cartridge too.
In this day and age where cartridges are available that’d satisfy about any special need for African game, I don’t believe a hunter getting a rifle or two gun battery could do much better than to simply buy a .375 H&H if he’s only going to have one rifle for all African hunting, and assuming dangerous game will be part of that. If he’s going to get a 2nd rifle or only hunt plains game, I think a 30-06 would fill the need very well. They’re tried and true, they kill game very efficiently without beating up the shooter, you can probably find ammo in any country if you’re in a pinch for ammo. I just don’t think most hunters can do significantly better.

That said, I hunt with different cartridges in my rifles. I mainly hunt with a .338 Winchester and for DG a .416 Hoffman. Are they better than the 375 & 30-06? I doubt it but they’re what I hunt with. When it was time to get my son a rifle for Africa, I got him a 375 H&H. Told him it was the only rifle he’d ever need for Africa. I’m having one more rifle built for me and it’s in 375 H&H. Anytime I’m doing a 1-gun hunt, that’s most likely what I’ll be carrying. YMMV.
Originally Posted by memtb
Bell had a privilege that “none” of us will never have! Almost unlimited time and opportunities to take game and no lost money on licenses when the animal is wounded and lost!

If you’re paying for a guided, potentially “once in a lifetime” hunt…..use the largest, most powerful cartridge that you are proficient/comfortable with!

If you’re on a “cull hunt” and is legal…..hell, use a .22 LR. That should help “red line” your “fun meter”! memtb

I'd argue that Bell was under more pressure than an average sport hunter. He was hunting to feed a huge number of porters and wanted to make sure every shot counted, as it was a long trek up from the coast and the nearest ammo resupply. Additionally, when the shooting was hot and heavy in a herd of elephants the goal was to put as much ivory on the ground as quickly as possible with the least amount of fuss, and he clearly found what worked most efficiently for the task at hand. Guess I'm not overly surprised that a Big Bore like yourself finds a reason to doubt.
Give the man a 7X57 and stand back.
All I have to say is, he was the man. He was extremely proficient with his firearms unlike many hunters today who only sight in or take a few shots before the hunt.
Hard to know the truth, but when you're shooting 20 - 30 elephants a day, if you miss one, no one really notices...
Originally Posted by duke61
All I have to say is, he was the man. He was extremely proficient with his firearms unlike many hunters today who only sight in or take a few shots before the hunt.


This^^^^He practiced presentation constantly while walking and emphasized the importance of practice. He also studied the animals' anatomy carefully and placed his shots where most effective. Shot placement will always be the baseline skill.


mike r
i gotta say this for a joke > just think how much better he would have been with a 6.5 Creedmoor ! HE-HA
Originally Posted by prairie_goat
Originally Posted by memtb
Bell had a privilege that “none” of us will never have! Almost unlimited time and opportunities to take game and no lost money on licenses when the animal is wounded and lost!

If you’re paying for a guided, potentially “once in a lifetime” hunt…..use the largest, most powerful cartridge that you are proficient/comfortable with!

If you’re on a “cull hunt” and is legal…..hell, use a .22 LR. That should help “red line” your “fun meter”! memtb

I'd argue that Bell was under more pressure than an average sport hunter. He was hunting to feed a huge number of porters and wanted to make sure every shot counted, as it was a long trek up from the coast and the nearest ammo resupply. Additionally, when the shooting was hot and heavy in a herd of elephants the goal was to put as much ivory on the ground as quickly as possible with the least amount of fuss, and he clearly found what worked most efficiently for the task at hand. Guess I'm not overly surprised that a Big Bore like yourself finds a reason to doubt.


I have no doubt that he did it…..only saying that it was a far different situation than any of us will ever have the pleasure of experiencing! memtb
Growing up we killed quite a few cattle and hogs with a 22 rimfire to the brain or base of the skull. Just sayin cool

I have enjoyed using my 22-250 with monometals, kills above and beyond. Have never recovered a 53gr TSX moving at 3800fps out of dozens of deer/antelope.

Have a 1:8 twist 270 being built right now. Have some 180gr Woodleigh's on the shelf.... Very similar to a 7x57 with heavies.

My 338-06's are pretty dang close to a 318. Have stated numerous times there are not a lot of critters I would not use it on. Could I make it make work on buffalo, elephant and hippo? probably. But think there are better choices. Have been waiting for some 275gr A-Frames to become available to mess around with, although a 250gr mono would probably penetrate just as good with a little higher velocity for slightly flatter trajectory.

I have a big bore? in 416 Remington that I really like and do not plan on getting rid of anytime soon.

So it looks like I am 75% in Bell's camp. But realize that nobody will ever get to accumulate the experience he had.

Seems like his main issues with the big bores was rifle weight and short bullets. I never could talk myself into a true big bore >458, but understand Bell's shot placement premise 100%. Have often stated that shot placement relegates all other ballistic discussion to secondary importance.
I never thought about effectiveness of longer bullets, as he put it, it should never be less than four times it's diameter in length and a short round nose and long parallel sides.
That comment caught my attention also.
[quote][/qI never thought about effectiveness of longer bullets, as he put it, it should never be less than four times it's diameter in length and a short round nose and long parallel sides.uote]

That is just another way to describe sectional density. That is why a 200 gr 30 caliber bullet of the same construction will always out penetrate a 200 gr 33 or 35 caliber bullet.
Originally Posted by JMR40
[quote][/qI never thought about effectiveness of longer bullets, as he put it, it should never be less than four times it's diameter in length and a short round nose and long parallel sides.uote]

That is just another way to describe sectional density. That is why a 200 gr 30 caliber bullet of the same construction will always out penetrate a 200 gr 33 or 35 caliber bullet.

Knew it was about SD, just never heard it put into a specific length vs caliber before.

But he also had problems with long bullets bending and not penetrating straight. Physics tell us that bigger diameter cylinders are stronger and long cylinders are weaker. So what is the is the multiplier x diameter= lengh of bullet for maximum penetration and non deforming bullets?

Bell states a multiplier of 4 for bullets of his era. What would it be today; 3, 3.5, 4 or even 4.5 be better?
Read this article a few months back while in Zim on a tuskless hunt. Interesting perspective from one of the most experienced hunters during the nearly golden age of elephant hunting so worth listening to his observations. Obviously the tone is hyperbolic, as Bell was wont to be and exaggerated. A more polished Elmer Keith in reverse.

Agree that shot placement is the critical factor, but at least in the herds, enough cartridge is key. Once the close-in shooting starts, everything develops very quickly. So 2nd shots, often at less than ideal angles are the rule and stopping a mortally wounded elephant within a short distance of the initial shot - usually in brush - before it runs off with the herd, is critical to success.

I’m not disregarding Bell’s experience, opinion and advice, but at least a heavy medium - .400” - .423” - firing monolithic solids seems a prudent choice today. True that plenty of practice with the loads chosen, sighting system, and DGR are essential, because we all fight the way we train, especially after the first shot.

Interesting reading, but I would bet few riflemen will score a heart shot, with iron sights, on an elephant at 600 yards. Karamojo’s main claim to fame was actually his prowess as a superbly accurate rifleman. Brain shots, frontal or lateral at elephants, are risky and much less preferred than shoulder heart shots; dramatic videos notwithstanding. Just my 2 cents based on a modest number of elephants.
He was piling up elephants with cartridges some on here would consider only marginal for whitetail deer.
Bell, from what I read, used a 7mm Mauser with fmj bullets. He made brain shots. Between the eyes or between the eye and ear from the side. Bullet didn't expand but penetrated the skull and killed them right there. Heart shots or lung shots mean they may run a distance before collapsing. He really didn't want this. He also left them to feed his caravan, then, came back later to easily pull out the ivory tusks.
His commentary on killing the first and then climbing on top of it, feeling the heart still beating under his feet while he proceeded to shoot more from his newfound vantage point is particularly chilling.
He had a 6.5 Creedmoor, sort of, and used it to kill most of his "meat" game. It was a .256 caliber which is the bore, not the groove, if I remember right firing 156 grain RN softs and solids, and he had both a short and long rifle. He found those solids to bend on Elephant skulls too often but he did shoot a few with it. He also killed Giraffe at 500 yards with it seeing with his internal "eye" the trajectory of the bullet over the screen of bush down into the vitals.
Been a few years since I read the book but think my memory serves. WDM Bell was one of those people who have the true Gift of shooting. I have met precisely one of those in my lifetime. He is now passed on. There are many good and even great shooters but few who have the Gift of shooting.
Bore size I'd no substitute for shot placement and
Power is no substitute for bullet performance
Originally Posted by Fury01
He had a 6.5 Creedmoor, sort of, and used it to kill most of his "meat" game. It was a .256 caliber which is the bore, not the groove, if I remember right firing 156 grain RN softs and solids, and he had both a short and long rifle. He found those solids to bend on Elephant skulls too often but he did shoot a few with it. He also killed Giraffe at 500 yards with it seeing with his internal "eye" the trajectory of the bullet over the screen of bush down into the vitals.
Been a few years since I read the book but think my memory serves. WDM Bell was one of those people who have the true Gift of shooting. I have met precisely one of those in my lifetime. He is now passed on. There are many good and even great shooters but few who have the Gift of shooting.

Bell actually preferred his .256, the British designation for the 6.5x54 Mannlicher-Schoenauer, to the 7x57 for hunting elephants. But the Austrian FMJ ammo tended to split cases during firing--so he switched to his 7x57. But he killed more than "a few" elephants with the .256.
When I refer to a "few" with Mr. Bell, a few percent of 1100 is 110... He did tell us roughly the numbers killed per caliber, I just don't remember exactly so I went to the safe side. He also referenced the bending and also the strange "perfect shot" with the 256 but the elephant not dropping to it problem that eroded his full confidence in it. Yes he complained quite bitterly that the Germans could make such fine ammo but "we" could not, comparing the British 303 I think. Again my recollection. He did like the 10 shots and speedy repeat shots of the LE though!
I also recall in later writings he figured the perfect elephant rifle to be a 30 caliber with a 220 grain parallel sided solid at 2400 or so. I think we have such a beast today in the old '06. We also know now that putting a flat meplat on the solids improves them measurably. I am sure had he had a chance to use such a bullet, he would have agreed.
Best Regards,
F01
FO1,

Maybe so--but know he wrote this:

"I was using at that time a very light and sweet working .256 Mannlicher-Schoenauer carbine weighing only 5-1/4 pounds. With this tiny and beautiful little weapon I had extraordinary luck, and I should have continued to use it in preference to my other rifles had not its Austrian ammunition developed the serious fault of splitting at the neck. After this discovery I reverted to my well-tried and always trusty 7mm. Mauser."
--Bell of Africa

John
Somewhere I remember reading where Bell claimed in his later life that the 308 Winchester met all his requirements for the perfect rifle.
I recall that article as well. In it he also says an expanding monometal bullet would be ideal.
Bell also became very fond of the .220 Swift for red deer, after he retired to his native Scotland. He recommended neck shots--which he briefly mentions in the article.
Originally Posted by Mule Deer
Bell actually preferred his .256, the British designation for the 6.5x54 Mannlicher-Schoenauer, to the 7x57 for hunting elephants. But the Austrian FMJ ammo tended to split cases during firing--so he switched to his 7x57. But he killed more than "a few" elephants with the .256.

Bell favored DWM ammunition for the quality of its brass, primers, powder and bullet construction, and his 7x57 ammo was, IIRC, DWM.
Originally Posted by Fury01
He had a 6.5 Creedmoor, sort of, and used it to kill most of his "meat" game. It was a .256 caliber which is the bore, not the groove, if I remember right firing 156 grain RN softs and solids, and he had both a short and long rifle. He found those solids to bend on Elephant skulls too often but he did shoot a few with it. He also killed Giraffe at 500 yards with it seeing with his internal "eye" the trajectory of the bullet over the screen of bush down into the vitals.
Been a few years since I read the book but think my memory serves. WDM Bell was one of those people who have the true Gift of shooting. I have met precisely one of those in my lifetime. He is now passed on. There are many good and even great shooters but few who have the Gift of shooting.


Very interesting thread F01, that said, i'd shoot ANY animal in Africa, Ele, hippo, rhino, buff included if my PH would let me with those very old steel jacketed 220gr Hornady solids you gave me, a very easy low recoiling 2500 fps from my pre-64 300 H&H would handily do it all, everyone knows any animal, including us, leads with their head, a piece of cake with good accurate load, rifle and shooter. cool
Gunner,
We have much in common methinks.
Was running second shooter to a swat commander with a m4 from a large metro area a few years back with what I had under my jacket that day which happened to be a 4 inch model 15. My job was to provide cover fire when he went to cover or reload. After the drill he asked me, “why were you shooting them all in the head?” I answered “I have 6 shots, 3 hostiles and I can.”
Good hunting on your upcoming trip!
The simple fact is this is good for internet discussion and not much else. Pretty much every country in Africa has a caliber and energy requirement and it is usually right around a 375 H&H magnum.

Bell was a great hunter and I will never discount what he accomplished; however there are plenty of other well respected hunters that believe(d) bigger is/was better.

Shoot premium bullets.
Use the largest caliber you can shoot proficiently. If you cannot handle a properly fitted 375 maybe you should stick to deer hunting.
Use a cartridge that will drive the premium bullet to sufficient velocities.

One other note, there is a such thing as not big enough. Over the years I have killed around 2000 alligators, most with a 22 WMR. That is about the same number of elephants Bell killed, so I have a good sample size. I just finished my season and shot 66 with a 22 magnum, as usual no issues. The previous two years WMR ammunition was difficult to find so I used 22 long rifle. On a big alligator a 22 LR is just not enough to consistently kill one.
Originally Posted by 458Win
Somewhere I remember reading where Bell claimed in his later life that the 308 Winchester met all his requirements for the perfect rifle.

Phil,

see the last page of the linked article.

Very interesting point.
I watched a culling video where the cullers were using 30/06 and they were dropping elephants as fast as they could work the bolt. Good bullets that penetrate through the skull from any angle and i to the brain will kill just as wel as anything larger.
I once read that the elephants Bell shot with the 7 x 57 had never really been shot at before and this allowed him to easily get amongst them and use a small bore. As I was not there, I can't say how accurate this is - any comments? Also, if after all his experience he says a 30 cal with a 220 grain projectile at around 2400 fps would be his preferred choice, doesn't that mean he thinks such a choice is better?
Originally Posted by Riflehunter
If after all his experience he says a 30 cal with a 220 grain projectile at around 2400 fps would be his preferred choice, doesn't that mean he thinks such a choice is better?

Am curious: Have had that issue of American Rifleman in my library for a long time (along with hundreds of others). Did you see that in the article, or somewhere else? This would seem to describe the .30-06 with 220s.

But in this article he makes comments that would seem to contradict it: "My reason for preferring the .308 case is because it is shorter than the .30-06 M2. My only really close calls in hunting African game have come from the too long bolt travel of bolt-action rifles.... With sighting ranges of three yards or so, the backward bolt travel is apt to be cut prematurely. The empty case is not ejected, but reinserted in the barrel and you have a misfire at contact range."
0 bores.
eking personally, my greatest successes have been obtain
he 7 mm. Rigby-Mauser or -276, with the old round-no:
weighing, I believe, 200 grs. It seemed to show a remarka
de for finding the brain of an elephant.
This holding of a ti
I think is due to the moderate velocity, 2,300 ft., and to
at the proportion of diameter to length of bullet seems to
eal combination. For when you come below 276 to •256
m., I found a bending of the bullet took place when firec
bones.
en, again, the ballistics of the -275 cartridge, as loaded
any at any rate, are such as to make for the very great
179
Page 179 wanderings of an elephant hunter.
Took me a while to find my books. They had been moved to another bookcase.
Originally Posted by Mule Deer
Originally Posted by Riflehunter
If after all his experience he says a 30 cal with a 220 grain projectile at around 2400 fps would be his preferred choice, doesn't that mean he thinks such a choice is better?

Am curious: Have had that issue of American Rifleman in my library for a long time (along with hundreds of others). Did you see that in the article, or somewhere else? This would seem to describe the .30-06 with 220s.

But in this article he makes comments that would seem to contradict it: "My reason for preferring the .308 case is because it is shorter than the .30-06 M2. My only really close calls in hunting African game have come from the too long bolt travel of bolt-action rifles.... With sighting ranges of three yards or so, the backward bolt travel is apt to be cut prematurely. The empty case is not ejected, but reinserted in the barrel and you have a misfire at contact range."
He mentions old round nose solids travelling not faster than 2400 fps, which would imply .30-06 performance, but then says a .303 with a 215 grain @ 2100 was just about perfect. If he thought that a 215 grain projectile @2100 was just about perfect, then that would indicate a .308 with a 220 grain projectile would also be just about perfect. So it seems to me that he preferred the .308 to the 30-06 solely because of the bolt travel issue, but would be happy with a 220 grain projectile at anywhere between .308 to .30-06 velocity.
Originally Posted by Fury01
Gunner,
We have much in common methinks.
Was running second shooter to a swat commander with a m4 from a large metro area a few years back with what I had under my jacket that day which happened to be a 4 inch model 15. My job was to provide cover fire when he went to cover or reload. After the drill he asked me, “why were you shooting them all in the head?” I answered “I have 6 shots, 3 hostiles and I can.”
Good hunting on your upcoming trip!


LOL, good stuff F01, and many Thanks Sir.
While looking at the Bell Books last night I find my memory conflated two of his comments into one by saying "He also referenced the bending and also the strange "perfect shot" with the 256 but the elephant not dropping to it problem that eroded his full confidence in it."
The actual quote about perfect shots not working as expected were comparing his beloved 275 and the 318 rifles. Basically he said that he never really figured it out but when switching to the 318 and its 250 grain parallel sided solids, the problem went away. The problem was oblique shots to the brain through the neck. Amazing really that he expected it to always work and that he was surprised when it sometimes did not.
Best regards,
F01
Going to try and kill a nilgai with my 220 swift this coming spring.
Knew a fellow who killed a lot of elk with his 222 rem. Put it behind the ear and the skulls became floppy. I imagine the swift delivering its bullet in that manner will work likewise.
Originally Posted by gunner500
Originally Posted by Fury01
He had a 6.5 Creedmoor, sort of, and used it to kill most of his "meat" game. It was a .256 caliber which is the bore, not the groove, if I remember right firing 156 grain RN softs and solids, and he had both a short and long rifle. He found those solids to bend on Elephant skulls too often but he did shoot a few with it. He also killed Giraffe at 500 yards with it seeing with his internal "eye" the trajectory of the bullet over the screen of bush down into the vitals.
Been a few years since I read the book but think my memory serves. WDM Bell was one of those people who have the true Gift of shooting. I have met precisely one of those in my lifetime. He is now passed on. There are many good and even great shooters but few who have the Gift of shooting.


Very interesting thread F01, that said, i'd shoot ANY animal in Africa, Ele, hippo, rhino, buff included if my PH would let me with those very old steel jacketed 220gr Hornady solids you gave me, a very easy low recoiling 2500 fps from my pre-64 300 H&H would handily do it all, everyone knows any animal, including us, leads with their head, a piece of cake with good accurate load, rifle and shooter. cool

Gee, Gunner, who was the SUPER NICE GUY that sold you that 300 H&H I'm wondering! smile

PS: I now have TWO! my pre-war 70 and a gorgeous Browning Safari I found and imported from Canada.
Originally Posted by 458Win
Somewhere I remember reading where Bell claimed in his later life that the 308 Winchester met all his requirements for the perfect rifle.

Bell seems to allude to that in the last page of the article as well.

I find it interesting that Finn Aagaard also appears to have narrowed it down to the .308 Winchester late in life.

Also yourself and John Barsness seem to like .308/.30-06 as sort of a sweet spot too.

Maybe there's something to this apparent convergence?
Fascinating reading! BCP, thank you for posting it.
I knew an old Rhodesian when I lived in south Africa that claimed to have killed thousands of animals including all the big 5. His favorite gun and load combo was an old Springfield 03 with a 2 groove barrel shooting 220g round noses.

He said it was his favorite for clearing out nasty hippos at the request of farm workers and other natives. He developed a reputation as a good hunter and shooter at a young age so he said people from all around the area would call on him to sort out problem animals. He said he killed everything with that 30-06 for several years including Buffalo and elephant. I saw some awesome old black and white photos of him with hippos he'd killed and a huge crocodile.

Most other Rhodesians I knew used 303s but I always remember this guy because he loved his Springfield 03 30-06 and that was one of 2 high powered rifles I owned at the time. The first guy to take me hunting in Africa had a Bruno 602 in 375 h&h and a 98 chambered in 30-06. Said he could do anything with those two rifles. He ran 220g round noses too because he said they just work better than anything else he'd tried.

I'll never have the on game experience that others get though because I typically just fill a few tags a year here in idaho. Next time I go to Africa I'd like to spend a week or 2 culling and testing bullets. A week of culling in Africa can give you more experience than a decade in Idaho big game hunting. When old Africans talk about what works on game and what doesn't I pay attention. Although I find many just used whatever they could find at the time or whatever was priced right.

Bullet tech has definitely improved and a lot of old timers didn't get too technical. The last guy I hunted with in africa didn't seem to be too into guns. He could really hunt and get you on game and could really stalk but didn't seem to know 1 bullet from another. He carried an old sporterized 7 mauser with local pmp brand round noses iirc.

Bb
I go along with Bell, the .308 and 220 gr. bullets. I played with the idea a few years back using W760. I have an early cop of the One book/One caliber for the .308 and the data for load is in that one. Later copies dropped data for the 220 gr. bullet.

Anyway, it anyone wants to try it, here it is. Powder is W760, WLR primer, Winchester brass and I used the 220 gr. Sierra round nose bullet.

Start: 42.0 gr./2177 FPS/42,000 C.U.P.
Max: 44.0 gr./2295 FPS/46,900 C.U.P.

I chronographed the max load at 2310 FPS on a 100 plus degree day. Accuracy at the max level was superb. I shot three sets of three shot each and groups were .375", .50" and .55". I think Mr. Bell would have been happy with those loads where we shot from a Winchester M70 Youth Ranger. Very similar to the XTR but with a crappy hardwood stock which I replaced with a Ramline. Groups kind of surprised me as that rifle has a 1 in 12" twist.
PJ
I’m sorry but success with a 7X57 on elephants in Bell’s hands is no different than a baseball bat in Babe Ruth’s hands. Neither the rifle or the bat made the difference, and too many people think they can kill an elephant or hit a home run with the same tools that someone beyond their capabilities was able to accomplish…
Originally Posted by jorgeI
Originally Posted by gunner500
Originally Posted by Fury01
He had a 6.5 Creedmoor, sort of, and used it to kill most of his "meat" game. It was a .256 caliber which is the bore, not the groove, if I remember right firing 156 grain RN softs and solids, and he had both a short and long rifle. He found those solids to bend on Elephant skulls too often but he did shoot a few with it. He also killed Giraffe at 500 yards with it seeing with his internal "eye" the trajectory of the bullet over the screen of bush down into the vitals.
Been a few years since I read the book but think my memory serves. WDM Bell was one of those people who have the true Gift of shooting. I have met precisely one of those in my lifetime. He is now passed on. There are many good and even great shooters but few who have the Gift of shooting.


Very interesting thread F01, that said, i'd shoot ANY animal in Africa, Ele, hippo, rhino, buff included if my PH would let me with those very old steel jacketed 220gr Hornady solids you gave me, a very easy low recoiling 2500 fps from my pre-64 300 H&H would handily do it all, everyone knows any animal, including us, leads with their head, a piece of cake with good accurate load, rifle and shooter. cool

Gee, Gunner, who was the SUPER NICE GUY that sold you that 300 H&H I'm wondering! smile

PS: I now have TWO! my pre-war 70 and a gorgeous Browning Safari I found and imported from Canada.

LOL, that be You my Friend, congrats on the pair, they sound wonderful, your old 300 H&H now wears a M7-3X Leupold laying 220 NPT's at 2750 right where they belong ; ]

Thanks again Sir.
Originally Posted by shrapnel
I’m sorry but success with a 7X57 on elephants in Bell’s hands is no different than a baseball bat in Babe Ruth’s hands. Neither the rifle or the bat made the difference, and too many people think they can kill an elephant or hit a home run with the same tools that someone beyond their capabilities was able to accomplish…

This is truth. The rest is mostly wishful fantasy.
Originally Posted by duke61
I never thought about effectiveness of longer bullets, as he put it, it should never be less than four times it's diameter in length and a short round nose and long parallel sides.

He'd likely think differently is he had today's bullets at his disposal.
Seems to be overlooked here that Bell killed in open country where stopping a charge didn't happen.
When "heffalumps" moved into thick cover the big bores were necessary.
Originally Posted by ElkHtrNevada
Seems to be overlooked here that Bell killed in open country where stopping a charge didn't happen.
When "heffalumps" moved into thick cover the big bores were necessary.

Have you read all of Bell's writings?
Walter D.M. Bell has become a legend among elephant hunters due to his great success in the ivory trade during the golden age of hunting in East Africa. He is known as “Karamojo” Bell due to his numerous safaris through this remote wilderness area in North Eastern Uganda. He is famous for perfecting the brain shot on elephants, dissecting their skulls and making a careful study of the anatomy of the skull, so he could predict paths of bullet travel from a shot at any angle in order to reach the brain. Using mostly 6.5mm and 7mm caliber rifles, he was an advocate of shot placement over big bore power for killing efficiently.

Modern writers on the internet and in magazine articles have tended to refer to him and his tally of elephants in this vein, “He shot all of his several hundred elephants with a 7x57mm rifle” or words to that effect. In fact, Walter Bell killed 1,011 elephants in the course of his career. Since most people refer to him for his small caliber prowess and his elephant tally I thought I would try and break it down, because there are a great number of people quoting what “Karamojo Bell” did or didn’t do and I have noted a common tendency in the last few years to play down what he did with small caliber rifles. Perhaps this is in direct relation to the resurgence in popularity of magnums and the larger safari rifles. Craig Boddington is quite apt to mention the "few hundred elephants" that Bell took. (Mr. Boddington, I believe, is an erstwhile heavy rifle enthusiast.)

Bell recorded all of his kills and shots fired. It was a business to him, not pleasure, and he needed to record expenditures.

He shot exactly 1,011 elephants; about 800 of them were shot with Rigby-made 7x57mm (.275 Rigby) rifles and round nose 173 grain military ammo.
He shot elephants with a Mannlicher-Schoenauer 6.5x54mm carbine using the long 159 grain FMJ bullets and noted that it was probably the most beautiful rifle he ever had, but gave it up due to faulty ammunition.
He shot his first safari with a Lee Enfield in .303 British and the 215 grain army bullet. Thereafter he kept a ten shot Army& Navy Lee Enfield as a sort of back up and in the hope he might find ten elephants silly enough to stand around long enough for him to use the whole magazine.
He went to rifles chambered in .318 Westley Richards for a while, which is a .32 caliber cartridge firing a 250 grain bullet at about 2400 fps, but found the ammunition unreliable and again returned to the 7x57mm. He later wrote that the .318 Westley Richards was more of a reliable killer for certain shots, while the 7x57 was a "surgeons" rifle.
He also recorded that one of the reasons why he favored the 7x57 was that the ammunition was more reliable and he could not recall ever having a fault with it; whereas British sporting ammunition, apart from the .303 military ammo, gave him endless trouble with splitting cases.
He owned a .450/400 Jeffrey double rifle made by Thomas Bland & Sons, but did not use it after his first safari, as he considered the action not rugged enough and the Mauser repeating action to be just as quick as a double for aimed shooting.
He wrote about being able to drop an elephant with a light caliber rifle if he shot it in the same place that he would have shot it with a heavy rifle and realised this fully when he saw that elephants shot with a .303 died just as quickly when shot in the same place as a .450/400 double rifle with both triggers wired together, so they went off at the same time.

To judge ammunition expenditure and his own shooting, he calculated an average. He discovered that with the .275 (7x57mm) he fired an average of 1.5 shots per kill. This means that half the time he only needed one shot. That is a fair performance for such a large number of elephants killed with a rifle and cartridge that was intended for deer hunting.

It is also interesting to note that, although Bell is the most famous proponent of using small caliber "nitro" rifles for large game, he did not discover the technique, nor was he its earliest advocate. Well known hunter Arthur Neumann, for example, had been shooting elephants with a .303 Lee Metford rifle for years before Walter Bell got into the business.

WDM Bell is forever associated with the John Rigby & Sons Mauser rifle and the .275 Rigby cartridge. ".275 Rigby" was the British designation for the German 7x57mm Mauser cartridge. This cartridge propelled a .284 caliber, 173 grain bullet at around 2300 fps and the bullets he used for elephant brain shots were full metal jacketed solids. He declared once that a soft point bullet had never sullied the bore of his rifle. It is interesting to compare these ballistics with what is commonly regarded as essential performance today.

The Rigby Mauser was just that, a Mauser 98 action rifle in sporting configuration, half stocked and finely finished. The actions were made by the Mauser Company in Germany and Rigby had the rights to sell them in England. The Mauser action was the darling of the sporting world at the time and Bell was obviously a man who appreciated fine rifles; he bought the best. For most of his life, he was an advocate of the bead front blade and express rear sights. However, in later years he used an aperture sight, as well as early telescopic sights. His take-down .275 Rigby rifle was sold by his widow (after his death in 1954) to the writer Robert Ruark, who later presented it to Mark Selby, son of the famous white hunter Harry Selby. A constellation of famous African names converged around the ownership of this rifle. Interestingly, it is a half stock, take down rifle with a trap made out of the grip cap to store cleaning gear. The floorplate is engraved WDMB. Harry Selby later had a scope fitted to it.

Shot placement for the tricky brain shot on elephants required good marksmanship. Bell constantly practiced by dry-firing his rifle. He always carried his own rifle, eschewing gun bearers (another plus for the lightweight Mauser) and picked pretend targets of opportunity as he traveled, dry firing at a distant rock or bird. He believed that this was the single practice most beneficial to a hunter.

He was a great proponent of the bead foresight and it was his drawings with which he illustrated his first book Wanderings of an Elephant Hunter that explained to me how to use a bead front sight properly. You should hold the bead low in the notch so that your elevation is constant and open both eyes so that you can see through your hand and rifle with your non-shooting eye. Bell sighted his rifles with the point of impact in the centre of the bead. When used like this, with both eyes open, it is much like a red dot sight and I shoot my open sighted rifles this way quite successfully.

As a further example of marksmanship (if brain shooting a great many elephants isn’t enough), Bell once used up the remainder of his unwanted .318 ammunition by shooting flying cormorants out of the air. Spectators believed that he was using a shotgun and were amazed to find that he was actually using a rifle. He was also observed shooting fish that were jumping from the surface of a lake.

I will make the point that unlike many African writers (Peter Capstick jumps to mind), Karamojo Bell doesn’t seem to have been particularly threatened by an elephant, rogue or otherwise. Nor did he have to turn a charge or anything like that. The prose in his books has none of the trumpeting about the manly virtues of facing grisly death upon which Capstick built his writing career and that has been popular ever since Hemingway went on a couple of hunting trips. (Hemingway was disappointed when he shot a lion and it simply died.)

In his opinion, a great many of the charges that one heard about were actually panicked animals who didn’t know in which direction danger lay and were fleeing towards the hunter. In his letters he wrote that he had probably shot between 600 and 700 buffalo in his time and had never been charged even once. However, he stated that he made it his business to never have to deal with a wounded buffalo.

A great many people have tried to explain away Bell’s elephant hunting success by asserting that he didn’t need to hunt in thick cover and could shoot elephants from long range, the implication being that somehow the behaviour of African elephants must have been different back then. This is untrue, as any reader of his books will find. Bell hunted hard, walked thousands of miles, ran down elephants and was a very cool marksman at extremely close range. He sighted his rifles in right on the nose at 80 yards and preferred to get within 30 to 40 yards of his elephants. He would drop the first one, then climb on top of it so as not to be trampled by the other members of the herd and so he could get clear shots.

One does not walk down an elephant in uncharted African wilderness with a tool one regards as marginal and Bell had complete confidence in his ability to harvest elephants with the Rigby Mauser. It was his business and also his hide at stake, especially considering that the amount of money to be made was considerable. To put his efforts into perspective, he wrote of one day when he tracked and shot nine elephants. He estimated that he had earned 877 pounds sterling from the ivory harvested from those nine kills. After one expedition he returned with ivory worth over 23,000 pounds sterling. That was a vast sum of money and converted to today’s currency equivalent it would make your eyes water. One does not risk that kind of money and effort on a questionable calibre.

Walter Bell left Scotland a young adventurer obsessed with hunting. He first travelled to East Africa and took a short lived job as a lion hunter at the age of sixteen, on the same stretch of railway that later became notorious for the Lions of Tsavo, the extraordinary man-eaters that plagued the railway workers. He travelled to the Yukon Territory to cash in on the gold rush and make his fortune. It did not pan out and he became a market hunter, shooting game for the Dawson markets with a Winchester single shot falling block rifle, until he was robbed by his partner. He joined the Canadian forces sent to fight alongside the British in the Boer War in South Africa at the turn of the 20th Century. Taken prisoner at one point by the Boers, he managed to escape. When the war was settled, he stayed on and bought his way into elephant hunting, outfitting his first safari on foot into East Africa.

Bell made himself into a successful elephant hunter not just because of his skill with a rifle, but also due to carefully maintained good relations with the local people in the territories through which he travelled. At that time vast areas of Africa had not yet been penetrated by settlers or traders. For many of the native encountered, he was the first white man they had seen. He was always ready with gifts for chiefs and kings. He bought permission to hunt from them. One of his best ideas was to post a reward of a heifer for any African who gave him information about the whereabouts of elephants that led to five bulls being shot. He soon had a flood of elephant sightings coming in and he was as good as his word, readily paying for the information. For recaltrant natives, a shooting display with his Mauser Broomhandle semi-auto pistol, during which he would often shoot stones thrown by his men out of the air (easy enough, he wrote, with some practice) was enough to quell any ideas of attacking his camp.

Shooting buck animals for meat and hides was a large part of his regular duties as an ivory hunter. His porters, camp guards and personal men and their family could number as many as 200 people, for whom he had to provide meat. He also would shoot for meat and hides that were used as trade goods with the villagers in the areas he passed through. He used another rifle for this purpose, a long barrelled Mannlicher in 6.5x54mm made by Gibbs, for which he had a supply of soft nosed bullets. He wrote that this rifle was very accurate and probably had the largest job of all. With meat shooting and supplying hundreds of hides for sandals, donkey saddles and trade goods, this rifle was probably the busiest of all and with it he shot everything from antelope to giraffe.

When the Great War (World War I) broke out, he immediately headed back to England and joined the fledgling Royal Flying Corps, becoming a pilot and flying in Tanganyika (Tanzania). He was known for flying without an observer, because the observer obstructed his view when he tried to shoot down enemy planes with his rifle. In the Balkans he once shot down a German Albatross fighter with a single round. His machine gun jammed after that first shot, but the one shot was enough. He later served in Greece and Italy, achieved the rank of Captain and was twice decorated with the Military Cross.

After the War, Bell returned to ivory hunting, traveling by canoe into then uncharted African wilds after legendary herds of large elephants. He made his last expedition in the early 1920’s.

He retired to Scotland a wealthy man and after marrying an aristocratic wife he bought an estate in Scotland called “Corriemollie.” There is no unhappy or overly dramatic ending to his story. He lived unscathed through all of his adventures to enjoy the wealth he had accumulated with his rifle.

Walter Bell spent his later years writing magazine article and books on his exploits in Africa. He created water color paintings and ink drawings of red stags in the Highland tussock, as well as paintings of splendidly depicted elephants on the savannah, made with an eye for anatomical detail and an appreciation of the body language of the African elephant. He used them to illustrate his books. With his wife he had a racing yacht built he called Trenchmer and successfully sailed it competitively. During World War Two, he was active in the home guard. This was now his third war.

He continued to keep abreast of shooting developments and hunted red deer in the Scottish hills with a Rigby Mauser in .22 Savage High Power (5.6x52R). In the 1930’s, he purchased a Winchester Model 70 in the then new .220 Swift caliber with a telescopic sight. He swore by this as the perfect round for red deer, due to its lightning kills with a neck shot.

He made it clear in a magazine article published in American Rifleman in 1954 what he would use if he returned to Africa. With his vast experience ivory hunting, he felt he could put his finger on the perfect caliber for the purpose, which he felt was the .318 Westley Richards, or the 8x57mm Mauser. However, if he had to do it all over again with a modern rifle he would choose a Winchester Model 70 in .308 Winchester loaded with homogenous bullets and sighted with a ghost ring rear aperture sight.

Like everyone, WDM Bell was a product of his times and to hunt the dangerous big game of Africa with such light caliber rifles would be illegal today. The legacy that WDM Bell leaves us is that perfect shot placement, coupled with proper bullet construction, trumps caliber every time. The best thing you can do to increase your hunting success is to understand the anatomy of your quarry and practice with your rifle until you can put your first shot exactly where it should go.
Originally Posted by memtb
Bell had a privilege that “none” of us will never have! Almost unlimited time and opportunities to take game and no lost money on licenses when the animal is wounded and lost!

If you’re paying for a guided, potentially “once in a lifetime” hunt…..use the largest, most powerful cartridge that you are proficient/comfortable with!

If you’re on a “cull hunt” and is legal…..hell, use a .22 LR. That should help “red line” your “fun meter”! memtb
Precisely
Big bores of his day hurt the shooter almost as much as the “shootee”!

Many of the “big bores” of the day, were much larger bore that that of today’s big bores!With the technology of today, better stock fit, better recoil pads, ect., ect…….big bores are much more pleasant to shoot!

If I’m gonna be charged for any wounded game that escapes….I want all of the insurance that I can get. For you people with vast wealth…..hunt a 22 LR if that “blows your skirt up”! memtb
Completely disagree with everything you’ve stated.
Tks for this.

800 buffalo in his lifetime, 23 using a .22 Savage Hi Power.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._D._M._Bell

Hunting lions at 16, meat hunter in Alaska, cavalry during the Boer War, WWI fighter pilot (beginning at age 34), competitive ocean sailor. 1,011 elephants down from close range, average of 73 miles walking for each.

Extraordinary, one of those guys you’d never believe could exist if this were fiction.

I am wondering how he escaped malaria and a whole gamut of parasites and diseases in Africa.
I just got a copy of Keith's Gun Notes and read a few of the letters in the back, between Keith, Truman Fowler, and Jack O'Connor.

Have ya'll read that? Man those guys were going at it! Kinda brutal at times. But they still had class and would sometimes end with, "I'll buy you a drink when I see you"

Some of it was about small vs. large bores.
Originally Posted by Mule Deer
FO1,

Maybe so--but know he wrote this:

"I was using at that time a very light and sweet working .256 Mannlicher-Schoenauer carbine weighing only 5-1/4 pounds. With this tiny and beautiful little weapon I had extraordinary luck, and I should have continued to use it in preference to my other rifles had not its Austrian ammunition developed the serious fault of splitting at the neck. After this discovery I reverted to my well-tried and always trusty 7mm. Mauser."
--Bell of Africa

John

JB- Bell of Africa, along with The Karamojo Safari and African Rifles and Cartridges along with P.O Ackleys handloading books are responsible for my rifle lunacy. smile
Originally Posted by shrapnel
I’m sorry but success with a 7X57 on elephants in Bell’s hands is no different than a baseball bat in Babe Ruth’s hands. Neither the rifle or the bat made the difference, and too many people think they can kill an elephant or hit a home run with the same tools that someone beyond their capabilities was able to accomplish…

You could always practice a bit.

[Linked Image from media.tenor.com]
Originally Posted by Mule Deer
Originally Posted by Riflehunter
If after all his experience he says a 30 cal with a 220 grain projectile at around 2400 fps would be his preferred choice, doesn't that mean he thinks such a choice is better?

Am curious: Have had that issue of American Rifleman in my library for a long time (along with hundreds of others). Did you see that in the article, or somewhere else? This would seem to describe the .30-06 with 220s.

But in this article he makes comments that would seem to contradict it: "My reason for preferring the .308 case is because it is shorter than the .30-06 M2. My only really close calls in hunting African game have come from the too long bolt travel of bolt-action rifles.... With sighting ranges of three yards or so, the backward bolt travel is apt to be cut prematurely. The empty case is not ejected, but reinserted in the barrel and you have a misfire at contact range."


I realize I'm late to the party, but in a letter to Denis D. Lyell ( published in African Adventures, Letters from Famous Big Game Hunters) Bell mentioned that his ideal rifle would be .30 caliber with a 250 gr bullet at 2,500 fps. I don't have the book on my shelf anymore, so I can't quote exactly.
Originally Posted by memtb
Bell had a privilege that “none” of us will never have! Almost unlimited time and opportunities to take game and no lost money on licenses when the animal is wounded and lost!

LoL, you really need to read more Bell.
He tells of times when it could be weeks
or months without shooting elephant
while on safari, and tells of his safaris
which were profitable and non-profitable.



Originally Posted by ElkHtrNevada
Seems to be overlooked here that Bell killed in open country where stopping a charge didn't happen.
When "heffalumps" moved into thick cover the big bores were necessary.


"For years after that I continued to use the -275 and the -256 in all kinds of country
and for all kinds of game."
-Bell (page 6, W.O.A.E.H)

For those who care to read Bell thoroughly,
he cites/describes specific occasions where
he is killing elephant in heavy foliage...and that
open country shots were rare.

Why just in the first chapter; "hunting the big bull elephant"
(pages 1- 4)..it's mentioned numerous times that bulls
spend their day hrs in the dense bush.

And this from page 9, chapter three; "The body shot on elephant"

"Never turn your back on him,while you can see him you know where
he is. And besides you cannot run in the thick stuff without falling."
It would be interesting to see how much penetration you can get with a 7X57 by doing a test on an elephant already killed.I wonder if it is the same as the more common rounds used on ele like the 470 and 500.That said I remember reading in Ian Nychen's " Months Of The Sun" that some ele would come back to life when shot by a 375 compared tp a 450.
Originally Posted by Riflehunter
I once read that the elephants Bell shot with the 7 x 57 had never really been shot at before and this allowed him to easily get amongst them and use a small bore. As I was not there, I can't say how accurate this is - any comments?..

Chapter 4 (W.O.A.E.H), Bell tells he tracked elephants for 16 days straight and couldn't
get close to them..On other occasions he had native crews drive them out of the dense tall
stuff into a prepared clearing where Bell was waiting with his gun bearer...other times
he used a ladder to shoot over 14 foot tall grass.
Originally Posted by 458Win
Somewhere I remember reading where Bell claimed in his later life
that the 308 Winchester met all his requirements for the perfect rifle.

True. but it was partly based on speculation,
his highest confidence lay in the .318 ~

"We now come to what I would take to Africa if I had to go through the whole thing again
under the same set of conditions. I would base my battery on a Win- chester .308 Model 70
burning a cartridge loaded with a homogeneous bronze or Monel metal bullet , of the form
as worked out by Kohlbacker. At the same time, I would have a .318 barrel to fit the same
stock and a supply of 250-grain solid conventional lead- filled steel-jacketed bullets, just
in case any unforeseen snags arose from the use of homogeneous bullets in the .308."

- WDM Bell ,American Rifleman 1954

Bell on the .318 WR :

"Then coming down the scale we reach the .318 with its four-diameter 250-grain bullet.
This is a killer. It holds its course through almost anything and is superior in this respect
to all other bullets I have tried. For oblique shots into large animals it is quite the best
(muzzle velocity 2400 feet per second). I have a .318 weigh- ing seven pounds ten ounces
exactly, when empty. The deadliest weapon of the push bolt type known to me..."

- WDM Bell, American Rifleman 1954


Dennis D. Lyell in his book 'The African Elephant and its Hunters' 1924 writes;

"If I was going back to hunt in Africa I would buy a couple of .318 Mauser
Action Magazine Rifles, for I believe this is a perfect size as an all round rifle and
notwithstanding the critics who have not always had practical experience
as a backing to their opinions, I am no believer in heavy rifles which are usually
somewhere in the rear when most wanted."


Commander Longden.

"In 1909 Longden went to The Lado Enclave, right from the start he got excellent
trophies his best was an enormous elephant with tusks of 141 and 139 pounds
which he shot in 1911. He once wounded an elephant which charged him and
was unable to stop it with the 450 NE he was using. The elephant caught him
and began to batter him, and his gun bearer managed to kill it with a brain shot
from the .318 Westley Richards. He was in a critical state and so carried across
the Nile to the post of Wadelai where he died. He shot between 60 – 70 elephant."

(source: WR website)
Originally Posted by STRSWilson
Hard to know the truth, but when you're shooting 20 - 30 elephants a day,
if you miss one, no one really notices...


"From 1902 – 1910 Bell hunted in East Africa. This led him through British East Africa,
Uganda, Ethiopia and The Lado Enclave. In 1911 he moved to West Africa (Liberia)
where there were no regulations on hunting elephants or other species. On this trip
he left his Mauser 7mm at home and brought with him a Westley Richards .318, at
the end of six months he had shot twenty-seven elephants."

(source WR website)


Originally Posted by Mule Deer
"I was using at that time a very light and sweet working .256 Mannlicher-Schoenauer carbine weighing only 5-1/4 pounds. With this tiny and beautiful little weapon I had extraordinary luck, and I should have continued to use it in preference to my other rifles had not its Austrian ammunition developed the serious fault of splitting at the neck. After this discovery I reverted to my well-tried and always trusty 7mm. Mauser."
--Bell of Africa

John

You sure thats from 'Bell of Africa'?
it looks like a quote from chapter eight: 'The Lado Enclave'
page 94, W.O.A.E.H.
Originally Posted by Birdwatcher
I am wondering how he escaped malaria and a whole gamut
of parasites and diseases in Africa.

IIRC, Bell didn't escape them and had to convalesce for a couple yrs
before resuming his safaris.
Starman,

Yes, I am sure the quote about Bell's .256 came from his book Bell of Africa--and yes, it's from Chapter VIII, "The Lado Enclave."

Are you unaware that a quote from a chapter of a book is also a quote from the entire book?
I remember reading somewhere that years after his retirement,Bell returned to Africa and tried the 308 with solids on dangerous game and nearly got himslef hurt doing so.

Does anyone else remember this story?
I found Bell's article to be a very interesting read. Regardless of ones opionion or experiences with different cartridges I certainly would not discount anything in the article.

drover
I found Bell's article to be a very interesting read. Regardless of ones opionion or experiences with different cartridges I certainly would not discount anything in the article.

drover
I think of all the human traits that are bothersome, chief among them is to measure truth or recitation of same by the meager standards of their own abilities or experiences.
Bell and Keith, of days long past, are frequent targets of this kind of analysis. We would hear the same about Jerry Miculek if we did not have video and digital measurements to prove it.
I've lost 2 deer in previous years hunting with my 45/70 useing a 405 grain speer. Those two deer are the only game animals I have ever lost.

I have never lost a deer hunting with my 223 useing a 55 ttsx

Furthermore, the game that I have recovered with both cartridges have proved the 223 to be more lethal on deer and death runs were shorter as well, shot placement being equal....heart and lungs


Over the years I have found that shot placement bullet construction, and sufficient velocity kills game dead.Period! I have found caliber size to have very little if ANYTHING to do with that equation


Trystan
I conclude a small high velocity FMJ bullet can brain an elephant, maybe a rino, or even a Cape Buffalo. However, a big bore hitting a big bear broadside will make a hole for them to bleed out through the muscle and fat. Same with plains game. Big hole in the chest makes them bleed out faster, trail easier to follow. A small bore must hit exactly where needed for a clean kill.

I've read in Africa, they want big bores to follow blood trails in the dirt and dust.
a long time ago I read bell sating that if a rifle will hit a monkey orange at 100 yards/ paces / or meters it was got hunt with or that was his shooting ability can't remember witch one
Originally Posted by Trystan
I've lost 2 deer in previous years hunting with my 45/70 useing a 405 grain speer. Those two deer are the only game animals I have ever lost.
Trystan
What’s the point of this? I am very familiar with the 45-70, the Speer 400 gr SP, and deer. I doubt the 45-70 or the Speer 400 gr SP. had anything to do with you loosing the deer. Explain.
Originally Posted by smallfry
Originally Posted by Trystan
I've lost 2 deer in previous years hunting with my 45/70 useing a 405 grain speer. Those two deer are the only game animals I have ever lost.
Trystan
What’s the point of this? I am very familiar with the 45-70, the Speer 400 gr SP, and deer. I doubt the 45-70 or the Speer 400 gr SP. had anything to do with you loosing the deer. Explain.

It has a lot to do with losing a deer on a lung shot! The bullet is traveling slow and while it may break bones very well it doesn't do jack [bleep] to the lungs! I made numerous perfect lung shots with extremely long death runs and very little damage to lung tissue. One deer in particular I shot broadside at 50 yrs. It dropped its head and went back to eating grass. After my next shot in the head to finish it I observed apon inspection that I had once again made a perfect lung shot with almost zero bloodshot in the lungs!

The 223 on the other hand with a 55 TTSX leaving the muzzle at 3300 fps instead of 1200 completely mushes the lungs! If you've never observed such a thing I doubt you have much experience with terminal performance


Trystan
Originally Posted by Trystan
It has a lot to do with losing a deer on a lung shot! The bullet is traveling slow and while it may break bones very well it doesn't do jack [bleep] to the lungs!

Trystan

Utter BS. No deer will survive or go far with a .45 hole in the lung and if you hit a deer in the lungs with a 45-70 that is the minimum size hole you would have and that bullet will not stay in the deer so you will have a hole on both sides. If you lost the deer then you DID NOT get the lungs or you don't know how to follow up a blood trail.

And before you try to tell me I don't know what the hell I am talking about I tagged my 100th deer this season, have taken 25 elk, 18 pronghorn, 3 black bear, 2 bighorn sheep, 4 bison, 1 mountain goat, at least 100 hogs and 42 species in Africa.
Originally Posted by MAC
Originally Posted by Trystan
It has a lot to do with losing a deer on a lung shot! The bullet is traveling slow and while it may break bones very well it doesn't do jack [bleep] to the lungs!

Trystan

Utter BS. No deer will survive or go far with a .45 hole in the lung and if you hit a deer in the lungs with a 45-70 that is the minimum size hole you would have and that bullet will not stay in the deer so you will have a hole on both sides. If you lost the deer then you DID NOT get the lungs or you don't know how to follow up a blood trail.

And before you try to tell me I don't know what the hell I am talking about I tagged my 100th deer this season, have taken 25 elk, 18 pronghorn, 3 black bear, 2 bighorn sheep, 4 bison, 1 mountain goat, at least 100 hogs and 42 species in Africa.

You don't know what you don't know sir
Originally Posted by Trystan
Originally Posted by MAC
Originally Posted by Trystan
It has a lot to do with losing a deer on a lung shot! The bullet is traveling slow and while it may break bones very well it doesn't do jack [bleep] to the lungs!

Trystan

Utter BS. No deer will survive or go far with a .45 hole in the lung and if you hit a deer in the lungs with a 45-70 that is the minimum size hole you would have and that bullet will not stay in the deer so you will have a hole on both sides. If you lost the deer then you DID NOT get the lungs or you don't know how to follow up a blood trail.

And before you try to tell me I don't know what the hell I am talking about I tagged my 100th deer this season, have taken 25 elk, 18 pronghorn, 3 black bear, 2 bighorn sheep, 4 bison, 1 mountain goat, at least 100 hogs and 42 species in Africa.

You don't know what you don't know sir

You dam sure don't. I've seen lungs demolished from revolvers shooting flat point hard cast
Originally Posted by jwp475
Originally Posted by Trystan
Originally Posted by MAC
Originally Posted by Trystan
It has a lot to do with losing a deer on a lung shot! The bullet is traveling slow and while it may break bones very well it doesn't do jack [bleep] to the lungs!

Trystan

Utter BS. No deer will survive or go far with a .45 hole in the lung and if you hit a deer in the lungs with a 45-70 that is the minimum size hole you would have and that bullet will not stay in the deer so you will have a hole on both sides. If you lost the deer then you DID NOT get the lungs or you don't know how to follow up a blood trail.

And before you try to tell me I don't know what the hell I am talking about I tagged my 100th deer this season, have taken 25 elk, 18 pronghorn, 3 black bear, 2 bighorn sheep, 4 bison, 1 mountain goat, at least 100 hogs and 42 species in Africa.

You don't know what you don't know sir

You dam sure don't. I've seen lungs demolished from revolvers shooting flat point hard cast

Uh huh, especially at low velocity! Low velocity is amazing for lung destruction. I'm impressed
Originally Posted by Trystan
Originally Posted by jwp475
Originally Posted by Trystan
Originally Posted by MAC
Originally Posted by Trystan
It has a lot to do with losing a deer on a lung shot! The bullet is traveling slow and while it may break bones very well it doesn't do jack [bleep] to the lungs!

Trystan

Utter BS. No deer will survive or go far with a .45 hole in the lung and if you hit a deer in the lungs with a 45-70 that is the minimum size hole you would have and that bullet will not stay in the deer so you will have a hole on both sides. If you lost the deer then you DID NOT get the lungs or you don't know how to follow up a blood trail.

And before you try to tell me I don't know what the hell I am talking about I tagged my 100th deer this season, have taken 25 elk, 18 pronghorn, 3 black bear, 2 bighorn sheep, 4 bison, 1 mountain goat, at least 100 hogs and 42 species in Africa.

You don't know what you don't know sir

You dam sure don't. I've seen lungs demolished from revolvers shooting flat point hard cast

Uh huh, especially at low velocity! Low velocity is amazing for lung destruction. I'm impressed



You're full of BS is what you are
Originally Posted by Trystan
Originally Posted by MAC
Originally Posted by Trystan
It has a lot to do with losing a deer on a lung shot! The bullet is traveling slow and while it may break bones very well it doesn't do jack [bleep] to the lungs!

Trystan

Utter BS. No deer will survive or go far with a .45 hole in the lung and if you hit a deer in the lungs with a 45-70 that is the minimum size hole you would have and that bullet will not stay in the deer so you will have a hole on both sides. If you lost the deer then you DID NOT get the lungs or you don't know how to follow up a blood trail.

And before you try to tell me I don't know what the hell I am talking about I tagged my 100th deer this season, have taken 25 elk, 18 pronghorn, 3 black bear, 2 bighorn sheep, 4 bison, 1 mountain goat, at least 100 hogs and 42 species in Africa.

You don't know what you don't know sir

I know that you don't know what the hell you are talking about. I have shot deer with a 45-70. I have also shot deer with a 450 Marlin. I have gutted those same deer and have seen what those 45 caliber rounds did to the lungs. You're either a fool or a liar. Perhaps both.
You sir, are a damn liar
Big gun big boom boom

Lauphing

This is some funny [bleep]! If you new how to hunt you could easily get it done without a cannon and that is a FACT

Trystan
Originally Posted by Trystan
You sir, are a damn liar

Nope. But you are a fool. I will waste no more of my time on a moron like you.
Originally Posted by Trystan
Originally Posted by smallfry
Originally Posted by Trystan
I've lost 2 deer in previous years hunting with my 45/70 useing a 405 grain speer. Those two deer are the only game animals I have ever lost.
Trystan
What’s the point of this? I am very familiar with the 45-70, the Speer 400 gr SP, and deer. I doubt the 45-70 or the Speer 400 gr SP. had anything to do with you loosing the deer. Explain.

It has a lot to do with losing a deer on a lung shot! The bullet is traveling slow and while it may break bones very well it doesn't do jack [bleep] to the lungs! I made numerous perfect lung shots with extremely long death runs and very little damage to lung tissue. One deer in particular I shot broadside at 50 yrs. It dropped its head and went back to eating grass. After my next shot in the head to finish it I observed apon inspection that I had once again made a perfect lung shot with almost zero bloodshot in the lungs!

The 223 on the other hand with a 55 TTSX leaving the muzzle at 3300 fps instead of 1200 completely mushes the lungs! If you've never observed such a thing I doubt you have much experience with terminal performance


Trystan
You lost two deer because you failed to adequately place your shot(s).
You lost two deer because you were not effective in tracking them.
Whatever it was.
As with anything, it is all about shot placement.

Compared to African animals, deer are easy to kill.

I would suggest you shoot small bores on deer as most likely you put a bad shot on those two deer. Undoubtedly due to flinching from the heavy recoil of the big bore you used.



e.g.
Big bore: .500 nitro @ 40y.

Dropped dead on the spot. (That is the exit hole. He was turned for pics. <- for the haters)


[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]



Smaller bore: 3-7-5 H&H @ 70 y.

Travelled 75 y.


[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]



75# bow, 928 gr arrow @ 30 y.

Travelled 40 y.



[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]e.
Originally Posted by Tony_Soprano
As with anything, it is all about shot placement.

Compared to African animals, deer are easy to kill.

I would suggest you shoot small bores on deer as most likely you put a bad shot on those two deer. Undoubtedly due to flinching from the heavy recoil of the big bore you used.



e.g.
Big bore: .500 nitro @ 40y.

Dropped dead on the spot. (That is the exit hole. He was turned for pics. <- for the haters)


[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]



Smaller bore: 3-7-5 H&H @ 70 y.

Travelled 75 y.


[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]



75# bow, 928 gr arrow @ 30 y.

Travelled 40 y.



[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]e.


Agreed, however it is all about bullet construction as well! While one bullet may work great for a cape buffalo or grizzly protection they don't necessarily work for smaller thin skinned game. I routinely shoot 1" groups at 100 yards with open sights with my 45/70! As I stated I did take a good number of deer with a perfect center shot on the lungs and those deer had longer than normal death runs in every instance! Why? Because my bullet of choice sucked! The entire point of my first post was to simply point that out however there seems to be a good many people who believe that 45/70s seem to be a killing machine because they are "45" caliber! Its a joke and Bell proved it!

The fact is for a brain shot the 7mm mauser will out penetrate a 45/70 by a good margin with bullets of equal construction and that is a fact! The 6.5 bullets will penetrate even better. Big bores are not the Holy grail of everything. Bell would read this nonsense and lauph

Trystan
Not much to learn here! Adios
Alexander Bell? The telephone guy?
Originally Posted by Trystan
Not much to learn here! Adios

Yep, idiots are incapable of learning.
I have to say that this has been a very informative and interesting thread to read for a rifle fan , who will never likely to have a tiny fraction of the knowledge I’ve read here. Thanks
Originally Posted by Tony_Soprano
As with anything, it is all about shot placement.

Compared to African animals, deer are easy to kill.

I would suggest you shoot small bores on deer as most likely you put a bad shot on those two deer. Undoubtedly due to flinching from the heavy recoil of the big bore you used.



e.g.
Big bore: .500 nitro @ 40y.

Dropped dead on the spot. (That is the exit hole. He was turned for pics. <- for the haters)


[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]



Smaller bore: 3-7-5 H&H @ 70 y.

Travelled 75 y.


[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]



75# bow, 928 gr arrow @ 30 y.

Travelled 40 y.



[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]e.

Would be interested in where the bull killed with the .375 was hit.

Looks like the .500 Nitro bullet hit the spine--which in tends to result in more sudden results.
[quote=Trystan

I routinely shoot 1" groups at 100 yards with open sights with my 45/70!
Trystan[/quote]

I for one would appreciate a warning prior to statements like this , so I can put on my hip boots. Mb
What a thread. Well no... I have killed exactly one buffalo in Zimbabwe 2018 IIRC. I showed up with a tweaked M70 416 Rem. My PH (happy that I could shoot a 416 well and didn't bring a 375 H&H that I surely would have shot equally well) wanted the rifle though he was shooting a custom walnut stocked 416 Rigby built on a high dollar magnum Mauser action. A beauty and a tank. He grabbed my McM stocked, Wisner sighted rifle and just fell in love. Just shy at 9 3/4 pounds it just feels right to me, if he thought so, well OK.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Thanks BCP for posting the article. Bell sort of parallels what Ross Seyfried has written about - "busting the magnum myth". Seyfried advocates for mastery of placement with the 6.5x55 and yes - even the much maligned .270 Win.. Bell had more exposure to big game encounters in a year than we can have in a lifetime.
"On we hurried, stumbling into pot holes up to the waist in mud,
our feet slivering about as if on glassy ice. Soon we were covered
from head to heel in the stuff. One simply could not keep it from
the rifle. Luckily these military-type bolt actions take a lot to make jam.
I could not help smiling as I thought of the large calibre double-barreled
ordnance affected by some hunters and the nice state it would have
reached in these conditions. One smear from a blade of grass on those
so accurately fitting action-faces and the monstrous thing would not close
or if it closed, would not open. I congratulated myself on having climbed
that fence some good while back.
I carried the .275 and had the .303 in reserve."


- (Chapter.10, page 146) Karamojo Safari.
Originally Posted by 458Win
Bore size I'd no substitute for shot placement and
Power is no substitute for bullet performance

I shot a cape buffalo 15 yards with a 416 Rigby with a 410gr Woodleigh solid across the right front shoulder and on through the heart. It turned and ran 80 yards, collapsed and bellowed.

I shot a cape buffalo at 15 yards with my drilling's 9.3X74R barrel with a 286gr Woodleigh solid across the right front shoulder and on through the heart. It turned and ran 50 yards, collapsed and bellowed.

I'm sure a 30-06 with 220gr solids would have had the same results, given the same shot placement.
Originally Posted by luv2safari
I'm sure a 30-06 with 220gr solids would have had the same results, given the same shot placement.

One of our range regulars had shot Asiatic Buffalo using that combination,
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