What's the consensus on the following solids for hunting Buff & Ele?

Woodleigh
Sledgehammer
Barnes

Keeping this restricted to solids available in factory loaded offerings. For hand loading, I hear North Fork and GS customs are the way to go. But unfortunately, sounds like NF will be closing....

There are too many reports of trouble with the Sledgehammers to earn my confidence.

Woodleighs have worked fine in my 458wm on eles and buff at 2145fps and many who shoot the Lott have had equally good sucess. With Woodleighs and the Lott, you can go with 550 grain bullets at 2150fps as well, and those who use them on eles report excellent success.

With Barnes, I would look to the 500's, especially if your rifle has a fast twist barrel to stabilize the length.

North Forks have worked best for me, but I read that Mike is shutting down, too bad.

GS Custom make an excellent flat nose mono metal with an excellent reputation. I would try these before I used Barnes.

To meet the "factory loading" requirement, I would simply call Superior Ammo and have them load some samples for you and then load what you and your rifle like best.

Good luck,

JPK

I used Barnes 450 grain Banded solids in my Lott to take three buffalo in Tanzania. I could not have asked for better performance. I have not used the others you mentioned so cannot offer an experienced opinion.

Tom

Interesting on the Woodleighs as I've heard numerous times that they perform best at 2100-2150fps in the Lott.

I may just have to get Superior Ammo to work up some loads with the NF Solids. Hoping I can get my hands on a couple boxes of bullets. Doubt I'll require more than that for my intended needs.

If you're gonna hunt elephant, I'd strongly recommend a mono solid, preferably a flat nosed one, over a FMJ. The very best of them are the US made Northfork and the very similar RSA made GS Custom. - Both flat nosed solids. - Northfork is a lot closer to you, but I understand they have sadly ceased production. So GS Custom might be your only option. If you are going to use a FMJ solid, then Woodleigh are the best by far. However, they are very speed sensitive and you need to make sure you keep to the speed restrictions detailed on the box.

The two I'd recommend you avoid like the plague are the Rhino and the Trophy Bonded.

As JPK suggested, Superior Ammo will load anything you want.

Shakari, why the Rhino's????

As an aside, I have had good results with the 550gr Woodleigh Solids in my .450 Rigby (at about 2280 ft/sec). (4 elephant backed up by it so far, out of 16 hunted with them.) I aslo had good results with the GS Custom FN 500gr (copper bullets it seems) @ 2400 ft/sec., until I recovered 2 slightly distorted bullets out of the last 2 elephant shot with them. I now use the 550gr Woodleigh. Wish someonme will make a heavier than 500gr FN monolithic solid (brass, not copper preferably)....

Usually I wouldn't buy Rhino bullets as I've seen a few clients have problems with them in the past, but last year I had to load ammo at short notice for Tanzania and I had to take what I could get and the only thing I could get were Rhino....... I'll try to keep this short.

I had two days to go before departure when I received a call from a buddy up in Tanzania asking me to take my new .404. So I had to get down to Sabi Rifles in Nelpsruit and take whatever they had........ which were Rhino. I loaded them that afternoon and that evening, I then tried to cycle them..... not a single round would allow me to close the bolt. Called Sabi Rifles the next morning and despite it being the busiest day of the week, they (God bless 'em) told me to bring everything to the shop and they wouldn't let me down. - When we got busy with the calipers etc it turned out the bullets were actually .424 and not .423. Not much of a difference, but enough. We then had to pull every round, machine off a thousandth of an inch and then resize the cases and reload everything. I just made it all in time and thought that was the end of my problems........ Remember these bullets were softs. They grouped well enough, but the first Buff that got shot was a big bodied bull, and the bullet entered under the tail and exited out of it's nose between the nostrils. The exit hole was the same size as the entry hole. The next two Buff that got shot with the rifle/bullets, both got hit transversally through the chest and the same again. - One of the bullets exited out of the side of the chest and through one tree of about 18 or 20 inches in circumference and three quarters of the way through another tree of the same size. The tracker recovered that one and other than the rifling marks, it could have been reloaded and used again. - Bearing in mind these bullets were softpoints, I'd call that damn awful bullet performance. That season, the rifle shot about 15 Buff and not a single bullet expanded at all.

Two companies showed stellar performance during all this. Sabi Rifles who built the rifle, bent over backwards to help me in my time of need and GS Custom who I called for advice on where I should look for the fault. Gerhard even offered to courier up some of his own bullets to me overnight if it would help. When I told him I wouldn't have time to get the payment made before he sent them, he told me not to worry about that and he'd wait for payment until I got home from the bush in 6 months time before I paid him! - You don't often see customer service of that quality huh?

Shakari

What's been your observations/experience with 500gn Woodleigh RN SPs on Buff please?

I will be using my 458 Lott at a planned 2250 FPS. I will also have Woodleigh 500gn Solids.....

mlg

The only .458 solid I've used is the 500 gr. Trophy-Bonded 'Sledgehammer', and it worked perfectly. I shot completely through a Cape buffalo end-to-end with a 500 gr. TB out of my 458 Win. Mag. and one of the trackers found it in the ground after it exited the animal. It wasn't bent or distorted in any way, and I have it in my bullet collection. I also used the 500 gr. TB to shoot end-to-end through a zebra, and though both shoulders of a hippo. I simply couldn't have asked for better performance, and accuracy was superb as well.

AD

MLG

I like the Woodleighs very much but with that calibre on that species, you'll probably find the PSP has the edge on the SP. The SP won't penetrate quite as well - esp on a texas heart shot. On the left of the pic below is a woodleigh SP in .500 Jeffery (I usually use these on cats) that I used for a coup de grace on a Buff. It expanded brilliantly, but the shot was put into the spine at a range of about 1 yard - and it didn't quite exit. The PSP will perform better in a hunting situation.

Allen,

Interesting to hear you like the Trophy Bonded..... I hate the bloody things and have seen more of them fail than all the others put together. I had a client take a frontal chest shot on a MAGNIFICENT Buff at the end of this season. We have the shot on tape and you can see the dust jump where the bullet hit and the animal react etc. Everything looks good on the film..... but we never found the animal, despite looking for it for the next 3 days. - I can only assume bullet failure.

Another TB failure that always sticks in my mind was a client shot an eland with the TB solid. It went between the ribs on entry and failed to reach the other side of the body cavity and when we found it, the bullet had bent like a banana. Range was about 100 metres and calibre was .375 H&H.

In case anyone is interested, the other two bullets are GS Custom flat nosed mono solids also in .500 Jeffery...... but I can't remember what animals they were recovered from...... get an idea they might have come from Elephants though.

My experience with those 500 gr. TB solids is limited to shooting paper and to shooting the three animals I mentioned. So my experience with them is anything but deep........

I could have shot more animals with them than I have and experienced problems, so I'm not going to stick my neck out too far in my endoresment of them.

For the present, I'm shooting 370 gr. North Fork Cup Point and flat-point solids out of my 416 Rem., and I'm going to use them for buffalo & hippo, etc., in Zambia this season. I've used these North Forks before in Tanzania, and they've worked extremely well, but again, my experience with them is limited, and it's likely that this is the last year I'll hunt with them.

AD

I don't have much experience of the Northfork bullets but they have an excellent reputation..... and it's a damn shame they've stopped production.

The three types of bullet I've never seen fail at all are the Woodleigh,the GS Custom and believe it or not, the good old Winchester Silvertip which I always used to like for cats, - but I can't buy 'em for my 500. I've even used the Silvertip on Buff once or twice (through necessity) but I wouldn't recommend them for that species.

Spoke with Mike this morning and he is indeed no longer in the business. Was hoping I could secure a couple boxes, and even though he has remaining inventory, he felt it may not be in his best interest to sell them due as he wanted to avoid any potential legal issues as the company is no more....

shakari, the pictures you have of the 2 GS Customs from "I suspect an elephant", shows exactly why I stopped using them. They are distorted, and I do not believe they can be relied upon to penetrate straight anymore.
Then, with the risk of sounding VERY confrontational- your story of the Rhino's softs not expanding at all, I do not buy it whatsoever. The fact that they where "oversize" by 0.001 inch might have caused your reloading problems, and I will acknowlede that they had some quality control issues regarding consistent sizes and lenghts previously. This has probably made you mad at them, therefore the "story" about them not expanding. Also, your clients that have used it, and the story of the skinner recovering one, seems like an afterthought (Also the fact that the gentleman who started the post asked about solids, (Rhino makes a monolithic solid), and you a quoting softs "experience"). Please elaborate on the clients failures.

PS- What bullet is next to that 2 recovered GSC bullets?

Karl,

sorry to hear you don't like the GS Custom bullets...... I guess these things are all down to personal experiences and taste. I love 'em to bits.

Regarding the Rhino bullets, I'm not sure I understand your comment about 'not buying' - unless your implying you doubt my word? - That's exactly what happened to me and that's why I won't buy any more. I appreciate the experience I mentioned related to their softs, but it was such an unwelcome suprise to me, I decided that it should be a case of once bitten, twice shy...... that applies to ALL their product range. You mention they previously had some quality control issues regarding consistant size and length. I guess I experienced some of that....... but I can't (and won't!) afford to take that chance with my, or my clients life. - All the while there's a choice of good, well made other bullets out there, why on earth should I accept second best.

Regarding the clients bullet failures, I didn't exactly make notes on them, but I hunted 2 SA clients in 2006 who had previously experienced problems with the Rhino bullets and also an English client who had (I believe) bought or borrowed some on a previous hunt in SA and also wasn't particularly enamoured of them.

I told the story of the other bullet in that post, but it is a Woodleigh SP. I usually use these on cats, however that one was used as a coup de grace shot on a Buff at a range of about a yard. I shot the animal through the spine from behind and it was recovered by the skinners, just under the skin of the sternum. It was posted as an illustration of why I prefer the (Woodleigh) PSP to the SP on Buff.

Hope that clarifies matters.

Here is the caption to the two FN bullets Shakari sent me two years ago:
"These two bullets were used for Texas heart shots on previously wounded Buffalo. Both penetrated the entire length of the animals and were found just under the skin of their chests. The one on the left hit and broke the spine (the animal was running downhill) and the one on the right hit below the tail/spine."

According to Shakari, both bullets gave linear penetration. From many other similar reports, It is obvious that the flattened nose on the GS Custom FN on the left, gave relatively better penetration because the nose flattened, the bullet shortened and it more closely resembles a cylinder. The perspective of the photo gives the impression that the bullet on the right is bent lengthwise. Fact is that there is not enough axial distortion of either bullet to cause any concern with me.

The small amount of distortion you will see on the front section of a recovered GSC FN (when they do not produce exit holes) will not influence the linearity of penetration. It is better to have a slight flattening of the meplat as that promotes penetration and increases shoulder stabilisation. Bullets that bend lengthwise are the ones that change direction inside the target. This has been reported frequently. Our testing as well as many field experiments and results since we launched the FN range, also back this up.

Bullets will react to the medium in which they penetrate in different ways. The obvious way to illustrate this is by keeping all else equal and shooting a steel plate and a bale of wool. My job as a bullet designer is to produce a bullet that will do the job in a hunting environment, no more and most definitely not less. Looking at a recovered bullet under magnification tells a lot about where it has been and what it has done. When a person has fired enough bullets into enough different types of media, it becomes difficult to fool that person about the media a bullet has encountered.

To those who subscribe to the idea that a solid bullet should be so tough that it must be reloadable upon recovery, I have some comment. Firstly, no matter how tough you think the bullet was after visual inspection, measurement will prove that no bullet would be reloadable after any impact with a game animal. It is a myth - been there, done that. Secondly, anything tougher than what is needed to complete the task on a game animal, will just wear out the rifle barrel faster. Karl said it well when he talked elsewhere about visualising a cloud of rifling following a hard bullet out the muzzle.

My personal opinion is that copper is a better solid bullet material than brass/bronze. Copper is more difficult to machine to close tolerances, wears out tooling faster than brass/bronze and is more expensive as a raw material but it makes for a better bullet. FN bullets made from brass/bronze could be considerably cheaper than those made from copper or, at the same selling price as copper bullets, afford the manufacturer a wider profit margin. I sometimes think that they would also be easier to sell because they "could be reloaded".

Karl,
I am relieved that you are no longer using the 500gr GSC FN in your 450 Rigby. As I said to you when you first ordered them, the 450gr FN will be better. The Rigby has a twist rate of 1:16.5" where the 458 Win and 458 Lott are 1:14". Due to case capacity limitations we recommend the 450gr FN in the 458 Win Mag. Although the Rigby has the capacity, due to the slower twist, we recommend the 450gr FN in the 450 Rigby. The 500gr FN can be used in the 458 Lott as it has the twist rate required as well as a bit more case capacity but, even there, the 450gr FN is better. That is why we had the conversation where I recommended the 450gr FN over the 500gr FN. If you are recovering 500gr FN bullets that are axially bent, it proves that they are yawing on impact. You must increase gyroscopic stability at impact to ensure a better transition from flight to tissue and this is done in only two ways. Increase rotational speed by increasing muzzle velocity and/or decrease bullet length. Both these requirements of course point to a lighter bullet - the 450gr FN. It is significant that the only people who have ever complained about the performance of our FN bullets, were those who did not follow the recommendations for correct use. How about giving the 450gr FNs a try?

Gerard,

Thanks for correcting me. - I checked my photos and consulted my diaries and they did indeed both come from Buffalo. I apologise for any confusion caused.

FWIW, the one on the left was when I was hunting with an American client on the last day of his hunt and the other was a young Pakistani client, again on the last day of his hunt. Reading the diary refreshed my memory of both occurances.

Adding to my previous post, I've just found the two bullets concerned in my desk and when I laid they down and rolled them along the desk, there's absolutely no discernable axial distortion in either bullet.

Gerard and shakari, you are mostly missing the point. My first point was that I did not believe shakiri's story of his "problems" with Rhino, especially the part that states that the penetrated straight though a buafflo without expanding. (I did acknowlage that they might have been out of specs, size wise.) Hell, that is a terrific solid's performance! He himself has now shown how inaccurate his data can be, claiming elephants as the victims for those bullets, when in fact they where buffalo.

Then, have a look at this photo-


The bullets are as follows:
1) 9.3mm 286gr Woodleigh solid out of an elephant bull
2) 550gr Rhino solid out of a elephant bull
3)-5) 550gr Woodleigh solids out of elephant cow (chopped out of her neck, hence the axe marks to the nose), and another cow and a elephant bull.
6) 500gr GSC FN out of an elephant cow.

I had another one slightly more distorted at the nose, which I cannot find now. I never said that GSC does not penetrate very well, in fact I think I told the story of one of these bullets exiting on the cheek of an going away ele cow that was shot about 3.5 feet behind the shoulder. Gerhard your explanation that a slight flattening might be beneficial makes sense (you have much more knowlege about these things than I), but I am still hesitant to use it on elephant. (no problem on buffalo) What happens if that slightly too soft bullet hits a shoulder bone with only half its frontal FN? Will it still penetrate as one would wish? That is why I prefer the harder bullets. (and also the heavier bullets.)

Gerhard BTW, my rifle has a .458 WM barrel from Vektor, reamed to .450 Rigby, so it should have the 1-in-14 twist then? Then the 500gr FN GSC would not yawn? The picture shows a slight bending to the left? Why is not even the 550gr Rhino yawning? (A bullet I stopped using as it was really too long, even for the 450 Rigby case.) Also, where did I post that you could see a cloud of rifling?

Hold on Bwana, firstly, I said I wasn't sure what animal they'd been recovered from, but I thought it was Elephant, and as soon as Gerard corrected me, I acknowledged my mistake and apologised for any confusion caused.

Secondly, you've just called me a liar on a public forum. I'm the straightest guy you ever hope to meet - hell, I can't even bring myself to wear a copy watch, let alone anything else....... However, I was there, and you were not, but there is something I can do something to prove my case. I won't give names etc on a public forum, but I'll PM you the name of a well known PH who saw all 3 occurrances himself AND I'll PM you the name of the client, (actually the Father of the shooter) who is another well known outfitter in the Eastern Cape of RSA. I won't give you the phone numbers because if you do your own search on the internet you can be sure you're talking to the right person.

Once you've spoken to them and they've confirmed the facts I've stated, I'll be very interested to see if you have the moral courage to apologise to me on this same public forum........... I appreciate that convention time is rapidly approaching and it might not be easy to get hold of both parties, but I'm a patient man and don't mind waiting until they get home for your public apology.

Even if the lack of expansion were not true, and it is..... the size error would be enough to make sure I'd never buy another Rhino product again........ not even for a fishing weight.

PM sent and I have to say, I'm astounded by your lack of professional courtesy etc.

shakari, if their stories line up with yours, you can bet your life that I will appologise. But please stop your bartering of Rhino products, a product that I have absulote faith in. Same goes for GSC, I will use the product on buff, but I am reluctant to use it on elephant, esp bulls. That is personal opinion, shaped by MY experience, so if you disagree, so be it. Just do not take on a manufacturer's solid bullet from zero experience with their solid. (Their solids and solfts are 2 fastly differing bullets.)

How about putting up a photo of that unexpanded Rhino found by the skinner?

Within the boundaries of professional courtesy, I say what I mean and I mean what I say and I certainly don't tell lies.

I like GS Custom bullets and I like GS Custom as a company and I like Gerard as a man.... and I respect his expertise.......... and I say so.

The opposite goes not only for the Rhino product and also a few others........ if I've had problems with a product and don't like that product, I'm entitled to say so....... whether you like it or not. You'll notice I didn't say I don't like the Rhino solid, I said I don't like the Rhino product..... and I explained why. As is my right.

I can't publish a pic of any of the bullets, because I don't have them. I find most clients like to keep any recovered bullets from their animals. (I'm sure it's the same for you with your clients) These clients were no different. Obviously the one that entered the ass of the Buffalo and exited between the nostrils couldn't be recovered, but I believe the client has at least one of the other two and possibly/probably both. Unfortunately, I don't.

shakiri, you said you did not metion the solid, only the Rhino product. this now after the poster asked what the other posters think of the Rhino SOLID. Then you post this:

After I asked you what your problem with Rhino is, you relate a story of their softs. You call that professional courtisy?

Going back to GSC and Gerhard, I have a lot of respect for him and his products, and have stated it as such, even in this post. I have taken his agent on in the past on what I believe to be untruths. Funny enough, my point of view on that specific issue has now been published by the Magnum magazine, confirming what I have said then. Coincedence?

I really don't want to get into a pissing contest here....... but...... I don't see what's wrong with my comment. I explained why I don't like them. I'm entitled to do that.

Regsrding your second paragraph, I appreciate that English probably isn't your first language, but perhaps you should consult a dictionary and/or a thesaurus to look up the meaning of the words professional courtesy. Please don't think I'm having a dig at you there..... I'm not, but I sincerely believe you think that expresssion has a different meaning to it's true meaning.

As for your comment about Magnum Magazine. I fail to see what difference that makes. Presumably they've printed either an article or a letter written by you that expresses your opinion? - That doesn't make your opinion any more relevent to anything, it's just your opinion in a magazine. - Nothing more and nothing less....... and it doesn't affect the fact that I have every right to my own opinion whether it agrees with yours or not.

Karl Stumpfe, do you post as Warrior on AR?

jwp, no I post as Karl S
Shakari, it is an article by one of their own staff confirming what I have said on that specific instance. Lets not dwell on it. We are all entitled to our own opinions. They will likely differ. Please just stick to what the poster asked- What you think of a SOLID Rhino?

Karl,


in which issue? - If it's current, I'll be happy to reply to it.

Regarding the Rhino solid - I wouldn't use ANY Rhino bullet after my experience with their softs and their lack of helpful (note the word helpful) support whilst I was having that problem. Frankly, I've used a lot of solids of many different makes and seen a whole lot more used by clients and IMO, the very best of the bunch by far is the GS Custom. I've used it on all of the big 'n' uglies and they've never let me down.

As I said to you in a PM, just imagine what might have happened if I'd managed to close the bolt on an oversized bullet and fired the rifle - or if someone had loaded those bullets and not checked them and then bought them on safari. - His hunt might have been over before it had begun. Sure it's easy to say, no-one would load ammo for a safari and not checked it...... but how often have you had guys pitch up with unchecked, brand new and/or faulty rifles etc. Whether we like it or not, the truth is that theae things happen from time time.

I'm an absolute perfectionist when it comes to reloading and hunting and I simply refuse to acept second best.

Karl,
It was in fact someone else who spoke of visualising (not seeing) a cloud of rifling following the bullet out the bore. That will teach me to check quotes before attributing them in future. I wrongly gave you credit for it and I should not have.

The distortion of the 500gr GSC FN in your photo is of no concern as it is in the top half of the nose and not in the shaft. The nose of the bullet is leaning slightly and would not have affected linear penetration. Did it?

What you need to do is to take one of these "slightly too soft" GSC FNs and shoot the heaviest bones you know of in a downed ele. While you are at it, shoot those bones with a bronze/brass solid as well. What would it be? The top of the femur I guess. The strong point of a copper solid is that, if it meets extreme resistance, it may deform some but it will hang together and finish the job. Brass solids have been known to fail and, when they fail, they fail catastrophically. I would recommend that you use the 450gr FN and not the 500gr FN. However, if the 500 is what you have, use it for a test, bearing in mind that it is not ideal.

As a matter of interest, if the bullets in your photo are readily available, a picture of the base surfaces of 1, 3, 4 and 5 would be interesting to see.

If your 450 Rigby is built on a WM barrel, it may well be a 1:14" and that can only be good. The 450gr FN is still better to use as the additional speed you can get from it, will be worth more than the extra 50gr of the 500gr bullet.

When you say: "Funny enough, my point of view on that specific issue has now been published by the Magnum magazine, confirming what I have said then. Coincedence?" I take it that you are referring to the meat damage question and your opinion that GSC HV bullets is a "sales gimmick". Let me clarify that once again. I have stated repeatedly that HV bullets cause less meat damage than jacketed lead bullets. Not "no meat damage" but less meat damage. By this I mean that, if you have shot 50 animals with HVs and 50 with cup and core bullets, all else equal, you will have more meat in the freezer from the HV shot carcasses.

I have taken clean shots with cup and core bullets. Less damage than what I have experienced with some HV shots. I have also seen incredible destruction caused with cup and core bullets - far worse than what I have ever experienced with any HVs. That is the unpredictability of terminal ballistics. One fact remains and that is that HV bullets bring a greater measure of reliable and predictable performance to the table that is good to have in a hunting bullet.

Your implication of the time was that the pages on our site that deal with meat damage and terminal reliability are less than honest. Then, as now, I say that the statements on those pages are from users of the product and not from us. The comments we get are edited for grammar and spelling, but not for content. Afrikaans and other language contributions are translated into English. At that time I stated that anyone who has sent us a contribution and feels that our editing has changed the content in letter or spirit, is welcome to tell us, so that we can correct the statement or remove it. If a contribution is or becomes suspect, we do not use it or remove it automatically. After your allegation, I asked customers whose contributions are published, as we made contact with them on technical matters or when they re-ordered if their comments are good. We received no requests to change or remove anything, so I must conclude that everyone is happy with what we published.

As for the Magnum examples of meat damage and impact velocity, we are talking of a sample of two, one of which is debatable as to what exactly happened. The collective experience of the hunters showcased on our Gallery and They Say pages number several thousand animals and simply carries vastly more weight as a valid opinion. Speaking of opinion, it is each to his own and it is good when one can back up an opinion with some fact or a substantial body of research or record spanning an acceptable length of time.

The starter of this thread asked about solids available as factory ammo so discussion of GSC, Rhino, or any other make available as components only, is out of line anyway. I have imposed enough, I am out of line and I apologise for that. I am out of here.