The desire for a dedicated grizzly rifle occasionally rears it's head. Right now, I'm enamoured with the Sako 85 Safari, and quite like the Ruger Hawkeye.

Both rifles have sights on the barrel.

My Dad used to use a "tip-off" Weaver mount on his 30-06 Remington 760 when he was hunting grizzlies in the thick stuff.
I'm asking this question on the "African" section of the forum because I think the answer is out there, and this is the best place to ask.

Is there a scope mount suitable for a .375 class rifle that enables the iron sights to be used in a pinch? Would anyone recommend it? If not, why?

don't both rifles mentioned have integral bases?

With the CZ 416 Rigby that I have been taking to Alaska and Africa I have Warne QD's holding a Burris Posi Lock signature Safari scope. I have only wanted the irons twice over the course of many hunts but it was a great option when I REALLY needed them. I have used Leopolds QD's on this rifle with another scope and they worked well also. For rifles with non integral bases i.e. grooved recievers it is hard to go wrong with a steel Weaver or picatinny style base combined with any of several good brands of steel QD bases. Hard to go wrong with Talley, Warne, Burris or Loopy QD's. Todays stuff is good stuff.

I'm using Warne QD's on my Ruger RSM. Works fine and returns to zero. The ruger ringmounts also will work as QD's but you'll have to carry a coin or tool to unscrew them. Not quite as fast as mounts with levers.

I go with iron ghost ring (my .458 Lott), or detachable mounts on more multipurpose rifles. The QD rings all require a higher scope mount, so I use the other style and keep a coin or a tool available.

jim

With the mounts you fellows are referring to, does the scope not have to be taken off - beforehand? It can't be "flipped" can it?

I was wondering if there was a mount (like my Dad used) where one would have the option of using the iron sights - at a moments notice - if for instance a wounded animal went into some real thick vegitation.

Brian,

Warne makes nice QD mounts that fit the existing dovetails for the Ruger and Sako rifles. I have used them on my Sako and can vouch for them.

My dad had a set of weavers on his 30-06 like you describe. You could just pivot the scope out of the way.

Britt

If I were you I would just use a low-popweered scope, like a 1-4 or 1.5-5.

I know its not a 375 but here is the Warnes on my Ruger 338, I just spin each lever and the scope is off. It has been very reliable at holding zero also taking it off and on again.

There are several ways to set up a DGR rifle sights...each has it's pro's and con's...each require practice.

NECG has a steel Peep sight for use on either a Ruger or Weaver style base...you can read about them online or in a Midway catalog. It can be pre-sighted in and swapped on fairly quickly, a matter of minutes if need be as long as you make the required, simple tools, but the only really quick way is using the swing out Pachmyer style if they are still available.

I used one at one time but it had it's own set of problems to deal with... and I wouldn't use it on a DGR anyway. You should design your DGR for that specific purpose only with a steel peep or ghost ring style or Express sights and forget swapping sights around...all you do is start making un-needed problems for yourself. My 9.3x62, while not an "African DGR caliber" DGR, sports the NECG sight plus two additional sight inserts, one standard for a finer sight out to 100-125 yds, one for around 75 yds and none installed for a ghost ring stle sight. I leave out the inserts for normal short range woods hunting and only screw in one of the other inserts if conditions require or permit it. I have a lot of scoped rifles so I position the peep centerline as close to the same centerline as most of my scoped rifles using Weaver Grand Slam steel bases. K.I.S.S should by your guiding light.

There are several brands of QD rings available, any one made of steel would be my choice and I've always used Weaver steel bases plus I re-drill and tap my rifles for 8-32 Torx screws and re-cut the bases plus use a medium strength thread locking compound.

It is a simple matter to pre-sight a low (1-4x) and medium power (3-9 or 4-12) variable to swap around and still be within 1 MOA most of the time. You can carry both scopes with you when you are hunting without much trouble and have them with you if one gets busted.

But if it is to be a DGG...set it up as a DGR and leave is as DGR and practice with it as a DGR from zero to about 50 yds. Have it fitted so your eye is in the correct position when the rifle comes up, the sights are aligned and you don't have to think and the bullet hits center target. If this is really to be a DGR and not a mind masterbation you need to think of it as something between you and being dead...not some fantasy as I've so often read on these forums.

A dedicated DGR can be used in all types of hunting and the more you handle and shoot it the better it is...BUT...the major problem is the difference in eye position using a scope vs a peep or Express sights with the usual rear sight setup. If you get used to shooting the rifle with a scope you will train your neck and head muscles to hold your head at a slightly higher position. You can get around this by positioning peepsights at the same level as a scope, but if you use Express sights you eye must be about 3/4" lower or you will not be able to align the sights and most likely shoot high enough to miss a vital "stopping" point. I've had quite a few heated arguments about this and only get my point across when I let them on my range and let them show themselves. I eliminate one possible problem by NOT using Express sights of ANY style on ANY of my rifles and haven't since my mid 20's. I even re-positioned the sights on my smoke-poles to keep my head position the same as my smoke-less rifles. Doing so made my kill zone hits increase from about 65 % to over 90% when snap or "instinct" shooting and felt more like shooting my 9.3 than a cap and ball...I also had to build a higher comb to keep from beating my cheek all to hel*. This way of doing sights is still arguable and for the most part...you either think your hide is worth something or want to argue some esoteric point. It's your hide, if you don't think it's worth looking into and testing the hypothoses then who am I to worry...you want to be bacon grease...go for it.

You want a DGR then make one but keep it as a dedicated DGR and set up the sights so you don't insert a set of problems that most people have no idea or concept of. It takes a lot of practice with both scoped and peep sighted rifle to keep the transition from one to the other as seemless as possible, but you should be practicing all you can if you expect or...most likely...don't expect a problem with Mr. Mean'n'Nasty.

I don't hunt large game much anymore, prefering to just look and take pictures, but I still carry a heavy cal, 9.3, 375, 416, if I'm going to be in their bailywick and one or more of my heavy cals get a workout a few times a month - 3 sets of 3 quick shots at 50-60 yds, around 30 yds 15 yds and 5-10 yds or anywhere inbetween those ranges at the centerof a dark brown spray painted 9" pie plate...sometime every month.

'Njoy

I have excellent luck with Warne on my 416 Ruger, but Quick Detach" is a bit of a misnomer. More like "relatively quick" detach as there are two levers to flip. The only QUICK detach I've worked is the EWS German pivot type, but it also has drawbacks. Like ALL things German, it's over-engineered and it does require quite a few pedantic adjustments to get it to sit right and I also think the upper limit for them is the 375 H&H. Now if money is no object, the Teutonic Claw Mounts are the way to go, but stand by to pay. Or you can just be practical and get the Leupies and they work great. jorge

If you can find a set of the old levers that Brownwell's used to sell for the Ruger rings that replaced the ring base nuts, you'll have a good QD set-up. I got 2 sets many years ago and have them on 2 Hawkeye 375s. They hold tight with any level of recoil and detach easily by hand. I've also had a local gunsmith convert the factory Ruger ring attachment nut to a lever-release on a 458 Lott - it's a simple and fairly inexpensive welding job that'll duplicate the Brownell levers. Either works well if you don't want to go the Warne route Jorge mentioned - probably easier in the end.

I've run Warne QDs - their early ones- on my 375, 340, and a light 358. And they've worked. I also had a set of the non-QD Warnes on a 7mm-08. A bit of trouble I had with keeping zero on the latter rings proved this:



(It makes me wonder if they used sintered metal.)

The company did offer to replace the rings and bases. Unfortunately, that does nothing to address the confidence issues I have with the sets of QDs I still have. (The newer versions are also beefier which kind of voids the svelte design they enabled on the lightwight 7mm-08 they were used with. I replaced them with Leupold DDs.)

I've had Warne QD's on my 375HH for ..... Hmmmmm I can't recall how long now... A hella long time anyway! They have been flawless and return to a functional hunting "zero" every time.

There is a company called Ashley outdoors that makes a rear Peep sight for the warn bases. I have this peepsight, a larger "ghost ring" type. It's like magic, quick release of the scope, quick attach of the rear peep, and deadly accurate to well over 100 yards. Busting water filled gallon jugs freehand to 50-75 yards with this peep is no problem. From a rest 150 yard shots on big game sized targets should be easy as well.

I'm not changing my setup anytime soon. The Leupold 2.5-8 with the Warne rings and bases along with the Ashley outdoors peep is just a perfect match to this rifle.

JJ,
What is the real low down on ghost ring vs low power scopes. Somewhere I have read that a low power scope is quicker because it only has the cross hair and animal, vs. the ghost ring, front sight, and animal?
So, if as a PH you have to go in to the thick stuff tracking a wounded animal, do you actually take the scope off?

A few years ago, I believe Phil Shoemaker (who posts here under 458 Win) did some testing between the efficacy and quickness of low power scopes vs open sights and the scopes won every time, even in close. Hopefully Phil will chime in and validate or disprove. jorge

Scopes are great as long as the lenses are clear. In close and dark, I seriously doubt any advantage for necessary point-and-shoot follow-up work. None of my friends, who carry 375s in their back-up duties, uses a scoped rifle. I do believe the age - or condition- of one's eyes affects speed of use with opens or GRs though. (A ghost ring really only involves the front sight and the animal, no different than a scope.)




On the NECG sight, it is the aperture insert which locks the elevator slide (which is also controlled by an elevation screw) on both of the aperture sights I have including one for Ruger. Tolerances are looser, however, than with a Williams type sight (which doesn't depend on the aperture to lock anything) and running without- or switching- can mean loss of zero. Also, by design the NECGs are made in such a way that using a large aperture creates a hole that isn't round. It has flat sides due to the length of the viewing channel forward of the aperture. (I happen to like both of the NECGs I have and plan to order another since they make the best tip-off sight for 22s. They aren't without a couple issues which are worth being aware of before dropping most of a C-note though.)

Over the years, I have found that the scope is quicker on targets, but maybe not so much in real world practice.

However having said that, I like the idea of the peep for my DG rifles because there is nearly zero chance of damage, or getting knocked out of adjustment. It's far more fail safe in my opinion.

For a fella coming to hunt and using his DG design for a week or two where he's going to "baby" his rifle as much as possible the scope idea seems practical. However for a professional who's rifle is bouncing around and packed into the bush every day all day for season after season. The Peepsight makes more sense in my opinion.

The Beauty of the QD design is that you can actually have your choice with a moments notice. Pop off the scope, snap on the Peep and you're ready in about a minute or so. Also having that little peep solves almost all scope damage issues as well.

Should you arrive to the hunting area only to find the scope is bad for any number of reasons, you're not out of luck to 150 yards or maybe even further. Just snap on the Peep and go hunting. For DG odds of shooting beyond 150 yards are slim anyway.

There will be times when the Scope beats the Peep every time and visa versa. It's a tough call to always choose the right one. Having them in this QD configuration gives you which ever one you want, or feel more comfortable with at that time.

Some one has said that a peep or ghost ring is as fast as a scope, and I tend to agree. With a peep you look through the rear sight concentrating on front sight and target. The front naturally aligns in the center of the rear and is very quick. A large peep or ghost ring illiminates the low light problem especially with a brass or ivory coloured front sight. The whole QConnect concept is new to me, I believ that a one rifle one site concept is the way to go, but some interesting posts have given me cause to think.
Randy

I have been using Warren QD Rings for about 25 years with excellent results. I have also installed many on friends rifles. There are others just as good I am sure, but I stay with what works.

Just a note of support on the Warne QD rings....

Not a DG or sight related, but I used the Warne QD weaver style rings on an Encore muzzleloader for several years. It was nice to be able to take the scope off when cleaning. I can say that it held zero every time. When I first mounted it I was worried, so I would shoot a shot, take it off, put it back on, and then shoot another. It was really impressive to me. Never a problem over 4-5 years and a lot of cleaning. Never had to adjust the scope. The Warne rings are heavy though......

JCM

If you liked the lower quality Weaver style, you can imagine how good the standard versions work! The Ruger Version may be best of all with the integral bases.

I shoot Mausers and pre 64 M-70s..I have my actions surface ground and hand fitted Talley bases and rings. I also use the Talley peep or a shallow V on a island. My scope return to zero much better by doing this, but it must be done right by a competent gunsmith..

Does anyone know a source which sells parts for the earlier, non-Weaver versions of the Warne rings? I need to get a first model M7 going (which is already set to go with Warne's one piece base) and need another ring or parts for the one I have.

I personally wouldn't use nor really reccommend it but there used to be a Pachmeyer side mount called the 'LoSwing' that did the very thing the Weaver mounts did. I can see no reason to believe this would not work on a 375. they were nicely built and finished mounts and were quite popular in the early 50's if I recall properly. Don't remember any problems with return to zero. Had one on a 30-06 and was satisfied with it.

I am a fanatic about scope mounts and have spent a lot of dollars trying everything up to and including those made by the very best metal working gunsmiths. I use Weaver bases and the new weaver rings with 4 screws. You can lap them and there is a lot of surface area to hold under extreme recoil. In fact weaver's were the only mount that would hold a scope from sliding on a 7.5 lb 375 Ackley. I think that Talleys and Warnes are a satanic creation because they cannot be lapped and because there is no provision for adjusting windage. They usually mark the scope tube. Yes you can adjust windage with the weavers by switching bases, switching the ring bases, and by judicious use of a file on the bases. If you ruin a base then pony up a few more dollars and try again. They are very light as well and return to zero as well as anything else. The rings with two screw are OK but require more fiddling.

1- the Pachmayr LoSwing worked on a .375 Improved after Warren Page's (no connection just emulating a hero)
2- for my own, in my dreams, bigger game rifle it's screwdriver removable scope and emergency irons peep - that's for fun not miserable conditions.
3- for my own general purpose rifle it's Leupold lever style QD and emergency peep irons but that's really more for a rainy day than any contemplated emergency.

Historically I used the old Lyman deluxe receiver sights with a blank slide when the scope was screwdriver mounted again mostly a rain and snow alternative. I wouldn't know where to buy the sights these days and as for blank slides maybe an auction site?

I wonder why the S&B Short Dot and such aren't used more in the field? It's been many years since I realized I was wasting my time trying to see open sights and I'd seriously consider a red dot and a 3X auxiliary on my .375 for fun.

I'm an NRA Instructor & teach scope mounting to my SCI chapter members. I have mounted many dozens of Warren Rings & lapped each set. I install just about all the brands for friends. I have never had a problem with Warren Rings marking or damaging the scope. I always use a torque wrench. I have a friends 30-06 & Trijicon Scope now that I intend to install Warren Rings on & intend to lap. I mounted this scope on another rifle, a 375 H&H, lapped the rings, & used alignment rods to insure every thing lined up. My friend used on a hunt & now wants to remount the scope on his deer rifle. No scope marks or damage.

Talbot are the best QD mounts for DG rifles.
The Leupold LX is close behind.

I wouldn't use anything but the Warnes!

Warren or Warne rings? I'm not familiar with Warren.

I have my first set of Warne rings on my CZ 550FS 9.3X62. They work great. They are not lapped, reamed, blueprinted or treated with any other type of magic. They are just properly installed by someone with a lot of experience mounting scopes. Good quality mounts: from American Weavers on up should not require anything but the proper tools and some knowledge to provide the maximun accuracy and reliability from your choice of rifle and scope.

If it is a dedicated DGR why even mess with a scope? Sounds like your preparing for bad breath range vs hunting so why not save a pound and a half and go with the NECG peep? I have one on a Ruger in .35 whelen and love it for hunting pigs in the brush.

Since when does a "dedicated" DGR rifle not need a scope except maybe for elephants? Now if you say a "dedicated stopper" we're in agreement, but lion, leopard, buffalo & hippo fall under that category and I'll take a scope over open sights any day. jorge

My bo bo. Happens when you are an old fart like me.

My bad, I was thinking stopper and DGR in the same light.

I have a 1.5x6 on my whelen for general hunting but pull it off when crawling at bayonet range. I also have the standard Ruger rings with the extra lever that was at Brownells, scope goes on an off with less than 1moa variance. I searched and could not find the little levers anywhere now.

I used to use Warnes but if you look at the picture of the warnes above you will see that recoil or bouncing around in the truck can pop the levers out and around to block the uplift of your bolt handle..I have seen this happen on Safari a number of times and had to tape the lever on my rifle for a whole safari one time, I did this after a buffalo about ate my lunch with a rifle that the bolt was blocked by Warnes, the PH killed him at my feet....a heavier sping might prevent this, but I just peddled them all and went to Talleys..

Today I have the receiver of my rifles suface ground and have Talleys QD handfitted and they return to exact zero everytime. I don't except them returning to within an inch or two of zero as most folks do...

That said, the best return to zero scope mts and bases are still the old claw mounts if properly installed..

Ray,

When you say:

"That said, the best return to zero scope mts and bases are still the old claw mounts if properly installed.."

are you referring to Weaver mounts - or what?

I always have the levers opposite the bolt handle, On Model 70s and nearly all other makes you can put the levers on either side. I guess there are a few makes that must have the levers on the side of the bolt?

Yeah, just switch the levers to the other side of the gun--problem solved.