As Usual I will share some thoughts on the various bullet performance from the season. Here are some observations and opinions about the performance of the Barnes TSX bullets this year. There were 52 animals shot with the TSX and a nearly equal amount of game taken with several other brands. This is the first year that every hunter in camp came with �Premium� bullets. Not a single hunter used a common �cup and core� style bullet. I hope that my rants on this subject have finally paid off regarding the advantage of the additional cost for premium bullets.

Since this is article is primarily for the TSX bullet, I will describe the events for those, and use the other brands as a balance of performance. To attempt to create a document with the detail needed for each brand,�.. well it would take a long time, and a lot of space here. Furthermore there was far more detail and resolution with the TSX as more game was harvested with the TSX then all the other bullet brands combined.

The best news with the TSX is that there was not even one animal lost with the TSX bullet this season. Considering all the game shot with the TSX, both 165 grain in 30/06 and 270 grain in 375HH this is an impressive achievement. There was game wounded with several different bullets that took some time to recover, and required follow up shooting. This was as far as I could tell as likely the shot placement and not just with the projectile. As is the case every year, no matter what the skill level of the hunters, or the cartridges chosen, game will be shot poorly and we will have tracking and follow up days during each safari. There are just so many animals shot, and so many brushy and quick situations. This often creates less then perfect shots, it�s just the way things seem to happen.

We recovered only 7, 30/06 TSX bullets, and we recovered no 270 grain bullets from the 375HH. The 270 grain TSX seems to open quicker and with more violence then the smaller 30/06 bullets. That 270 grain bullet chews a hole through bone and tissue like no other bullets can. The damage path with that 270 grain bullet with a MV of 2800 fps is one of the most impressive I�ve ever seen, quite a bit more disruptive then even the 300 grain TSX has been. The typical 300-350 fps faster speed of the 270grain is a significant improvement on the terminal performance. The 270 grain in my opinion is enough bullet for anything alive on this planet. I have said many times before and will confirm this again, it�s enough for Cape buffalo. The penetration of this bullet in my experience is equal or greater then any 300 grain expanding bullet with a lead core. It takes a lot of tissue compression or an exceptional long range shot to collect one of these bullets inside game.

We recovered well over a dozen bullets, or parts of bullets from all the other cartridges used. The skinner used for many of these hunts had very strict instructions to recover every bullet and fragment he could from the game. It�s was quite an experience this year with so many fragmented pieces of the Nosler Partition. I would never have believed that so many little pieces could be found by the skinner. Nobody with any amount of experience argues the performance of the partition. It is after all somewhat of a baseline for bullet performance. Better then the Partition is all good, but worse performance is a problem that needs strict attention.

We recovered a number of jacket pieces and lead segments from several different animals shot with the Partition. This shows that even the legendary Partition will go to pieces when shot with high velocity cartridges and close range at heavy game. I have seen Partitions come apart before but this year was more then normal. The up side was that nothing was lost with a Partition. Although there was a few very long grueling follow ups looking for wounded animals. (shot placement was a strong contributor on some of these)

If my count is right 31 animals were shot with my 30/06 using the 165 grain partitions, and another 6 were shot with the same cartridge and nearly identical loads by other hunters. 37 animals this year were shot with the 165 grain 30/06 bullet. Some notable trophies were 2 huge waterbuck, 7 Blue Wildebeest, 4 Zebra�s, 4 Gemsbok, 6 warthogs, and 4 Kudu. 7 recovered bullets, the rest simply passed right through.




The first and third bullets are from 300 meter plus shots on Zebra and wildebeest. The second bullet is from a length wise shot at a warthog from only 30 meters. The fourth bullet is from the 175 meter shot I made on the Zebra. Note the length of this bullet from a Zebra shot at 180 meters compared to the bullet used on a similiar shot on a Zebra at just over 300 meters. The reduced velocity of that longer shot still allowed a complete expansion of the bullet.



Remaining fragments from two different Partition bullets, the small lead pieces I collected seem to have vanished on my way home? The other two partition bullets have the typical recovered appearance. Nothing wrong with this so long as penetration is sufficient. They will as a normal design lose the front half of the bullet during penetration, this is not a bullet or design failure.

I shot a zebra at about 175 yards, a rather long shot for our habitat, but it was all I had available. The bullet struck a quartering away direction and came to rest under the skin in front of the off shoulder. The entry was behind the last rib. This bullet was about one foot per second from being an exit hole. The skin in front of the bullet was cut in three places about 1/8� for each hole. Had that bullet been any faster it would have poked clean through. The hole was actually bleeding and looked like and exit hole. It was visually bulging with the bullet just under the skin. The same bullet and load passed through several wildebeest, and other Zebras as well. One was recovered under the skin of the chest on an impala with a perfectly centered �Texas heart shot� Another from a Blesbok�s shoulder with a very far 300 yard plus quartering away shot. That was well over 30� of penetration at a laser measured 300 plus yards! I have seen countless Zebra, eland, and wildebeest in my career shot with a 375HH and a bonded core bullet. A large percentage of these animals have managed to contain the large mushroomed bullet under the skin on the exit side. Yet the 30/06 with much less energy has exited or at least equaled the penetration when the 165grain TSX bullet is used.


This is the exit side of a warthog, the blood trail would have been sufficient although in this case not needed. The warthog only ran about 50 meters.


Accuracy is unmatched with proper load development and ammunition construction techniques. This is where many of the critics come out of the woodwork where problems arise. These are not your Daddies bullets, and as such do not always work with the same procedures you have used for load development with other bullets. I�m not going into how to develop and load ammo here, just want to say that it may take some time to sort through the best combinations of powder, primer and seating depths. When it all comes together the accuracy and performance are just magic on big game.

I closely inspected every carcass shot when the skinning was complete and meat was hanging in the cool room. In every single case when a chest shot was made through the ribs, the entry was easily identified when compared to the exit. The exits were on average 4 times the size of the entries. This confirms without any question the bullets expand even when the exit holes in the hide don�t look as if they had expansion. The photo here of the warthog is a typical example of the exit hole and the blood loss.

On a few occasions there were petals broken off of the recovered bullets. Twice there was a single petal broken off, and on one rather close shot all four were broken off with the bullet entering the back of the warthog near the tail and coming to rest inside the skull. This was about a 30 yard shot on a medium female warthog used to feed the staff. The bullet actually entered with only a small partial hole right next to the wagging tail! I made this shot in a deliberate attempt to see just how far the bullet would go, or if it would still have enough power to break the skull. In addition I wanted to see just how straight it would travel through the inconsistent tissues involved through its damage path. The heavy bones of the pelvis, organs, muscle tissue and skull might cause a variance in straight bullet travel. However there was no bullet deflection at all in this test. The travel was as straight as a ruler could have made it. Overall I cannot find fault with the TSX in anyway again this year. I shot several 130 grain TTSX bullets at impala, none recovered and the internal damage was significant. Actually the same as the plain old TSX.

I don�t see a measurable difference in the performance between the two. I suppose if you�re of the mind that the plastic tip will improve the ease of the bullet opening and provide you with a flatter shooting projectile, the TTSX is made for you. I don�t see any need to change a single thing from the 165grain TSX bullet at about 2900fps from the 30/06. Several of the hunters and I joked that so many guys bring huge case capacity magnums, and then spend time looking for wounded game. I cannot stress enough that not a single plains game animal was lost with the 30/06 and the 165 grain TSX bullets again this year. There were however a number of wounded animals with magnum cartridges. One second time plains game hunter commented that his next safari will be with one of his 30/06 rifles. He used my 30/06 to finish his safari after a problem with his 338 came up.

It�s no wonder the locals throughout much of Southern Africa regardless of the country feel so comfortable with the smaller 308, 30/06, and 270 cartridges. Once the decision is made to jump from these cartridges they move right up to the 375HH, and from there the 458. Many of these local Southern African hunters regardless of the country don�t really buy into the need for the big over bore magnums. Now with the improved bullets available like the TSX they can have an easy to shoot, economical cartridge that will easily out perform the bigger magnums using a cup and core bullet. There is no doubt that a 30/06 shooting a 165 grain TSX bullet at 2900fps will easily provide more over all lethal performance than a 300 win mag shooting a 180 grain cup and core bullet at 3100fps. I�ve seen this plenty of times where the TSX from the old non-magnum will exit while the heavier cup and core bullet will fragment into many small pieces and have no exit hole, and quite often under penetrate.

As I have written before, and a fitting close to this article. Any bullet can have a failure depending upon the definition of �failure�. For my money and with the experiences I have had since using this bullet. I would prefer a bullet fail to an un-opened solid, or lose all the petals, then to have the whole bullet crumble away or fall short of desired penetration needed. Even if the bullet fails to an unopened solid, or has all the petals break off. If the aim was true to begin with, then the bullet will impact the organs you were aiming at and destroy them. Many times a hunter will criticize the performance of the bullet or at least be left wondering how the bullet could have failed him when the game is lost. I suspect that most of these animals were not hit well, rather then having a bullet failure. We have seen a number of cup and core bullets, fall short of the penetration needed. Having that thick very elastic hide so typical of many African animals absorb much of the impact. Which then causes the rapid destruction of the bullet, while it continues to disintegrate in the next few inches falling short of the off side lung. An animal pumping blood from the entry inspires confidence at the point of impact. However after several hundred yards of tracking the hunter asks how can this be? How can that much blood be seen and the animals travel so far? A herd animal with one good lung can run dead on its feet for a very long time trying to stay with the group.

With a bullet that crumbles or falls short of the desired organs, you will be tracking and hoping for many hours and kilometers that you find the game. This makes for long evening around the campfire while everyone else is laughing and enjoying the hunt stories, and you sit stressed out and wondering just how much of your trophy will be left from the hyenas and jackals. That is if you�re lucky enough to even find it in the morning!

THANKS JJ

I guess a 165 TSX out of a 30/06 would be similar t oa 150 out of a 308win....

Did you see anyone using accubonds or your old favorite the hornady interbond?

JJ,
What was the barrel on the 375? I am having my CZ shortened to 23" from the factory 25".

Terrific post! Welcome home and now its time to shoot rockchucks and go fishing!


MARK

No Accubonds or Interbnds this year. Interbonds are a great bullet, but they do not penetrate like the TSX and fall short where their is such a wide range of body size.

Interbonds are a great choice when the cartridge size is matched to the animal size. They don't offer the "step up" in preformance when trying to shoot the bigger animals with the smaller cartridges as the TSX design does.

The interbond has a more instant stunning knock down with some impacts. But it does not exit as frequent, and it does not crush bones the way the TSX does. I guess what I'm saying is that the Interbond is a great choice when everything goes just right. The TSX is the right choice when you need a Just in case it does not option!

Great post jj

After my first hunt in South Africa, I switched to "premium" bullets. In 2005 I returned to Africa to hunt Cape Buffalo in Zimbabwe and Plains Game in KZN and the Free State. For Buffalo and several of the PG I used my .375 Rem Ultra Mag with 300 gr TSX bullets at a MV of 2840 fps. Most shots were one shot kills with the bullets completely passing through the animals, except for the Buffalo and Zebra. I only recovered the bullet from the Buffalo.

My other rifle on the 2005 hunt was a 7mm Rem Mag shooting 160 gr Accubonds. Again, most shots were one shot kills and complete pass throughs. Both of these rifles and bullets shoot 1" 3-shot 100 yd groups.

In 2007 I hunted the Eastern Cape region of South Africa for a variety of Plains Game antelope from Steenbok to Cape Eland. For this hunt the only rifle that I took was my .375 RUM, loaded with 270 gr TSX bullets at a MV of 3043 fps (that's 5553 fp of muzzle energy!). This bullet also shoots into 1 inch at 100 yds.

Again, most shots resulted in one shot kills and complete pass throughs except for the Eland and Kudu. The only bullets that we recovered were from the Kudu. On the first shot, the Kudu was quartering to me at 160 yds. The 270 gr TSX entered the left front shoulder and stopped under the skin of the right hip. The bull ran about 30 yds and stopped broadside. Since the sun was setting, I anchored the bull with a TSX into the left shoulder that stopped under the skin of the right shoulder.

This picture shows the TSX bullets that I recovered from my African animals. They look just like the TSX bullets that jjhack posted. [img][img]http://www.jesseshunting.com/photopost/data/500/11-07_018_Small_.jpg[/img][/img]

Also, about 30 years ago I rechambered my .30-06 to .30 Gibbs. With the added velocity of the Gibbs, I wanted a bullet that would insure deep penetration, so I started loading 180 gr Nosler Partitions in it. These bullets chronographed 2990 fps muzzle velocity, and grouped 1-1 1/2" at 100 yds. I shot about two dozen elk and a couple of Shiras Moose with this combination. I was not in to recovering bullets, but I did recover some that stopped just under the skin of the "off" side.

This picture shows the 180 gr Nosler Partition bullets that I recovered from elk or moose that I shot. They look just like the NP bullets that jjhack posted. [img][img]http://www.jesseshunting.com/photopost/data/500/180_NP_Small_.jpg[/img][/img]

Superb case study Jim and proves what you and others have been saying for years. The TSX is THE bullet of choice for just about everything out there. It also validates what the Randy Brooks says about the TSXs, that you should go with a lighter bullet. He proves this with the 416 350gr TSX as being a more impressive killer than the standard weight 400gr. I'm in the process of switching everything to TSXs/TTSXs as I deplete my supply of other bullets, as long as my rifles like them and so far they are had to beat in the accuracy dept. I'll still hold on and use my Hornadys for everyday scrub deer/hog hunting with my 06, but for "money hunts" the TSXs are it. Thanks again, jorge

I guess the nosler E2 deserves a trial run as well

FANTASTIC article thank you very much Mr. Hack. I'll tell anyone if their rifle can shoot a Barnes TSX you better use it! Thanks again Sir!

Thanks for taking the time to post...great info!

Everyone of my rifles shoot the TSX into sub moa with minimsl load development. None of those rifles have had any significant accurizing done. My accuracy loads shoot well in every gun I reload for of my friends.

Everyone of those friends now use TSX exclusively and refuse to use any other.
Randy

I also used Federal 180 TSX out of my 300 wsm. Very accurate. I shot a Kudu, Red Hartebeest, and Gemsbok with the 300. All 3 dropped in their tracks. The Kudu was the closest, 75 yards, the bullet passed thru the animal shoulder to shoulder. The Red Hartebeest was about 155 yards, the bullet entered the front chest and stopped somewhere in the back of the gut. The Gemsbok was about 100 yards, the bullet entered chest side of the right shoulder and exited behind the left shoulder. I'm sticking with TSX........rej

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention the lack of copper fouling from the TSX....rej

I've pretty much settled on the 570g TSX in my 500 Jeffrey, I was a doubter at first (worried about lack of expansion) but you guys have converted me!


Regards,

Chuck

posts like this are one of the reasons I love this site....my daughter calls it "Dad's facebook".

nonsence, why just yesterday in these very pages of the campfire forums, i read again about the three tsx bullets that failed, and one ttsx. the same ones we have been reading about for the last 5 years!

seriously, i love the tsx,ttsx,and mrx. they have never "failed" to impress me.

Colorado, dont they make a 535 tsx for the 500? just thinkin on what JJ and others have said about the lighter tsx's performance.however, i still use 180's in 30 cal, but its a 30-378

Hi rosco1, I guess I want the penetration of the 570g TSX. Barnes does make a 535g banded solid as well as a 570g solid, but they only make the TSX in 570g in 510 caliber. I'm fine with it, I'm slowly working up my loads. I've got some H4895 and RL 15 to take the range in a couple of weeks. My last load was very accurate but a bit slow at 2100 fps. I'll end up somewhere between 2150 fps and 2300 fps depending on which is the most accurate and where my recoil "wimp factor" sets in.


Chuck

JJ great post!

I've been a big fan of Barnes X's and its variants over the years, yes they used to have some manufacturing problems but that was then and this is now.

I guess when you have such a great product, that a lot of people really rave about, you are going to have nay sayers who swear that its not good. All of these people have antedotal evidence, like small exits, or an unrecovered animal that they swear was hit right. We all know how that goes, but the evidence is apparant to even a small child, that the TSX is the real deal. With that said, anything can happen when a live animal is shot, so in reality, nothing would surprise me when it comes to bullet performance, but we can stack the deck in our favor.

Thanks for your time and honesty, Frank

Many thanks for taking the time to write this and post, JJ!

Nothing like a post of real reports from more shots than most hunters take in a lifetime!

A friend is nearly finished his apprenticeship as a professional hunter and also recommends the TSX based on seeing hundreds of critters shot. His reports are almost precisely like yours!

He also says that both he (and the PHs he works with) see no need for solids unless elephant is on the list IF the client is using a .375 H & H with 270gr TSX bullets. In fact, that is what they recommend for a one rifle hunter: 375 H & H with 270gr TSX bullets (not 300gr) for duiker to buff.

I guess what I find so surprising in your report (and my friend's) is that the TSX expands enough to work well on small stuff, but penetrates so well that recovered bullets are not common. However, I can't ignore all this evidence, so the next time I buy bullets they will be TSX...

John

Great post,JJ and VERY informative.Thanks for the insight.

Ditto! Very good info.

My personal 2007 Namibian PG experience was a perfect thumbnail of your whole season assessment. I took a .375 H&H with a a 270-gr TSX at a mild 2650 fps, stopping at this mild loading because it shot little clover-leafs regularly and a I also took an '06 with the 168-gr TSX which also shot very well.

I never got to the '06 as the 375 was so much fun and so deadly: seven PG that that went down where they stood. A big mare zebra at about 120 yds. stopped the one pictured here on a broadside that broke both upper legs and destroyed the lungs enroute to the offside.



The next picture is one stopped by a waterbuck, again at about 100 yds., that hit a finger-sized twig about 20 yds. in front of the animal. It obviously turned as the entrance wound was an oblong one and this is what I found bulging the hide on the offside. It also wrecked everything in between and I don't think the waterbuck even had time to blink again. Proof again, though, that no bullet is unaffected by brush.



The other bigger animals like gemsbok and kudu were all pass-throughs as of course were the smaller ones. All shots were broadside or approximately so at from about 60 yds (warthog) to about 225 (the kudu).

Then in Jan of '08 I took a bigger bull elk in CO at 427 yds with a .338 210 TSX. Wrecked elk and another pass-through. The TSX finally made this rifle - a .340 Wby - break the MOA barrier consistently which for about 15 years previously it did only irregularly.

I scored a box of these a couple of months ago. I did note the cavernous hollow point cavity - it does catch your attention. Unlike any of the other TSX's I've seen.

Have not had a chance to load or shoot them in my 375 Taylor. Was going to try for brown bear this spring, but an ACL injury laid me up.

Sounds like I may end up dumping my beloved 300 gr partitions . . .

JJhack- Excellent thread and thanks for sharing!

Also to the others who have shared their experiences as well...

I dunno - why trust the words of a professional African guide on bullet performance - when you can can read about all those failed Barnes bullets from the internet experts.

I think if JJ bothered to spend more time on the internet - and less time watching bullets being used on all manner of game animals - he wouldn't be sounding as positive as he does - about the value of those Barnes bullets!

goodnews: I'm interested in all this because I have not been to Africa,want to go,and hunt buff and know nothing about it other than what I am told and read.I have noticed that many of the Barnes problems do not seem to be mentioned with the 375 bullets,and have read that the 270 gr 375 is a pretty deadly bullet for buff;and works well on a wide spectrum of game over there.

That deflected bullet is very interesting because I have had a situation saved a couple of times where a good premium was deflected and enough of the bullet stayed together to kill the animal,which is why I think it a good idea to use tough expanding bullets in brush.

On my second trip to Africa [booked thru JJ] I took my 375HH and barnes tsx's 270 gr. started at 2800fps. Superb proformance on buff on down. Shot buff straight on thru heart bullet did not exit duh, two side follow up shots broke shoulder and lungs were pass throughs. Very impressive. I was lucky to have the buff run thru an opening after the first shot and with them You keep shooting. Next time I will take the same combination. Rbady Brooks recommened the 270 gr. and for me it sure worked.
I would surely recommend Jim {JJ} to book with as I have been over twice [ I know that is not much]. When he sets up a trip the worries are over.

Bob, when I saw the tell-tale lump on the off-side of the waterbuck I did what comes naturally to a loony, got out my knife and dug it out. Noting its side-ways, deformed condition, I found the odd entrance wound and began to backtrack toward my original position finally finding the freshly transected limb about 20 yds. from where the waterbuck lie. It was the diameter of my little finger. What was surprising to me was though it tumbled it maintained straight line and hit where I had aimed. Though a test group of two is hardly evidence upon which to make presumptions but a similar experience happened to me when I jumped a young bull elk at about the same distance - very close - in broken timber and tall grass. The rear of the rib cage, as near as I can remember, right where I aimed, showed an oblong entrance hole. Again, backtracking I found a similar finger-sized limb freshly sheared but the 225-gr Nos Part .338 had maintained a straight line to the animal which by the time I got off the shot was another thirty yards out. What these two incidences tell other than it happened these two times is the question but it did make me wonder does a tumbling bullet of good weight and construction tend to maintain its course?

As to your desiring to hunt buff, I believe I'd be comfortable with JJ's view that the 375 with that bullet, the 270-gr TSX, loaded to 2700 + fps or so is fully enough for m'bogo when placed correctly. In order to simplify my life I've basically gone to the TSX (am trying the TTSX in the .284) in my big game rifles with Hornady Interlocks as practice and I'm not disparaging the Hornadys.

Valuable info there JJ. Thanks.

good news:With a companion in NH during muzzleloader,he had a 50 cal conical deflect off a pinky-sized hardwood whip when he shot at a doe about 50 yards away.We did as you did and backtracked,trying to figure why he missed,and found the cut-off whip about 15 yards from him....

Ihave had two deflections where th game was killed;with a Partition and a Bitterroot.Both got it done but I think we are lucky.

The further from the animal the deflection takes place, the worse off we are in general,I think.BUT,tough bullets CAN save the day in brush...at least I think so.Notwithstanding best efforts,such things are unavoidable at times.

Another good report on the TSX. Just returned from my first trip to Africa (my Dads second trip). My Dad and I only took Barnes TSX. Results were perfect.

I shot everthing with a 300 win mag and 168gr. I shot 10 animals and only recovered two bullets. One was a gemsbok shot at 400 yards hit solidly in the shoulder. We found the bullet in the far shoulder. The other one was a follow up shot on black wildebeest. We thought he was done, but he got up and turned to run away, I shot him in the butt at about 15-20 yards. Broke one hip/leg and found the bullet in the lungs.

Dad also shot a 300 win mag and the same bullet. He took 4 critters with the 300, only one bullet recovery. Same scenario as me, follow up lengthwise shot on a blue WB, same result as mine. Dad also killed a buffalo and an eland with 300 gr TSX from a 375. Both were shot solidly in the shoulder and dropped on the spot. Both bullets were found in the opposite shoulder, ranges were 70 and 50 yards respectively. He bagged nyala with the 375 as well, but no bullet recovery.

All the TSX we recovered were mushroomed perfectly, no petals lost, just like a Barnes marketing photo. Perfect.

JJ,
Great post! The wealth of data put forth is wonderful. Your point concerning the size of the exit wound with the hide on versus hide off if very valid and has been my experience as well. I beleive, and your writings points this as well, that the expanded TSX "cuts" through the hide as opposed to "blowing out" a hole that we see with the cup and core bullets. Under the hide the picture is very different. And I beleive this has lead to many misconceptions about the bullet not expanding well when looking at the exit wound with the hide on.

I have been using the TSX and beofre them the X bullets and have always been very pleased with the results. In my 35 Whelen the 225gr TSX is absolutely perfect for all manner of plains game. I have recovered maybe 3 bullets of the 25 head or so of plains game shot. On buffalo, I have used the 350 gr bullet in my 416 Rem Mag and that performed very well also.

Thanks to all who posted on the 168 gr TSX as this is the bullet my '06 likes best. Have only shot one Florida pig with this bullet and it performed fine.

I don't know if this is a "marketing" post or not but it worked on me! I gave in and picked up a box of 7mm TSX to test out this season. Mostly interested in the reduction of blood shot meat.

Thanks for the info and all the extra input from others!

I have always been a Nosler holdout but it is hard to ignore the evidence. I just got back from 2 weeks in the Kalahari. My son shot 6 species with a 180 gr Federal 30-06 load and all were "Bang Flops". I did as well with the Nosler partition but we only recovered one TSX-no Noslers. The recovered bullet was shot through the thoracic inlet of a hartebeest and into the skin of the abdomen on the other side. When we weighed it it was 179 gr and perfectly pealed back. He shot a gemsbuck at 260yds and got a pass through the ribs taking out the heart and not touching the bones. One bullet was deflected by brush and he wounded a hartebeest that was not recovered. Trackers followed a blood trail for 100yds and it disappeared. Blue and black wildebeest, kudu, Blesbuck, hartebeest and gemsbuck all succumbed to this effective bullet
I'm very impressed by the performance and plan to make up some loads for my 9.3x62.

Tremendous thread and data. Clearly, the first-hand experience and photographic evidence is plain to see. (I just wish Barnes would offer the TSX for the 318 W-R.)

Curiousity here - Can the TSX be recommended for Leopard (or is it too much for Mr. Spots)?

I might suggest that a Nosler is supposed to do just what the pictures show, that is blow the front lead out inside and animals doing a lot of damage, and the rear portion exits or stops on the far side skin..A number of European bullets also are designed to do this.

IF one does not like this scenario then the option is to use the next heaviest Nosler available for that caliber..That is why I opt for 200 gr. Noslers in the 300 H&H or even the 30-06 if I am after more penetration or to recover pretty expanded bullets from lengthwise shots..

And thats the rest of the story!

I also agree the 270 gr. TSX or any of the old Barnes monolithics work great on buffalo, the older ones failed from time to time on lighter stuff and I had a TSX fail on a Mule deer out of a .308 in that the nose pinched shut and it changed course a bit and ended up in a tracking job..so any of them will fail from time to time, but todays bullet makers are the best in history and any good premium or better yet super premium bullet works well enough IMO..I am particularly fond of Noslers, GS Customs, North Forks and Woodleighs.

The bottom line is bullet placement is today and always has been the deciding factor IMO....Even if the bullet fails for whatever reason if it is in the chest cavity where the heart and lungs are it will work 99% of the time and end up after perhaps a short tracking job, it just won't look pretty after its all cleaned up and on your desk..:)

I have had bullets explode on contact and kill instantly and the lungs looked like the animal had been shot with bird shot. That was a 180 gr. Silvertip at 200 yards! The rest of those bullets all worked perfect! so there ya go...

Just ran across this one on the Alaska Outdoor Forums - Shooting section. Guy just came back from Africa and reported a 270 TSX "failure"



http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/showthread.php?t=56947

Ruminating; chewing the cud... taking "evidence of the net"

"heard rumours of failure", "took three shots to bring down this zebra"

This thread from AK O Forum is the best example of fact based, recollected, thought out discussion. Sarcasm off.

JJHack presents facts, does analysis nd reports his findings for all else do judge. Well done. Thank you, Sir.

Question to the panel here.....

Anyone have any thoughts to the TSX (in a 375 hh) performance on the smalls in Africa;duiker,steenbok,klipspringer?

At closer range,would you get the clean pass through as a solid?Assuming higher velocity with little expansion?

I tend to be a one gun hunter,and did OK with A-frames placed back in the ribs last trip on 2 out of three animals shot.Did blow apart a 3rd.Took another with a woodleigh solid because I had time to reload,but that's not always possible,nice clean hole.

Thanks for any insite....

Dinsdale

dinsdale,
That is an impossible scenario for anyone to make a flat out statement on..It just depends on what you hit on the way in! If you hit a major bone you will get a lot of destruction, if not probably a pass through with little expansion..

I solved that problem long ago when North Fork bullets came out with the cup point. It does yeomans work on any animal from Duiker to Cape buffalo, at least so far, but you never really know, I suppose it could tumble for instance and destroy a small animal?? then of course it depends on caliber and velocity. Velocity being the worst offender IMO.

It is always a good option to use a big bore with a solid or cup point..

Like you I am pretty much a one rifle person as I am all over Africa and in and out of airports and one gun simplifies my life enormously..I usually just take one of my rifles, be it a 9.3x62, 404, .375, or 416, makes no difference, load it with cup point bullets and a few solids for elephant and very small animals, and shoot everything with the one gun..

Once you get to the 40 calibers you can actually get by very well with a flat nose solid on everything IMO....

However you do it, its always a bit of a trade off one way or the other.

I applaude Mr. Atkinson for his reminding us all, just what a Nosler partitioin bullet is supposed to do and has been doing for years. I will continue to use Nosler partitioni bullets on smaller species of big game.

Now I am sure that Mr. Hack saw a lot of animals killed with these TSX bullets but I for one can't help but know, lots of TSX or Barnes bullets in the past have been complete pass throughs on big game animals. Don't want to whip a dead horse from the past but passed facts are just that facts gents. I have also heard from those who have shot the TSX bullet and come up with the same results I received in my testing of those bullets.

I did find out, that TSX bullets seemed to be more user friendly in my hunting rifles, verses those other Barnes bullets of past years. However, I have still gotten TSX bullets that never opened up in a water tank test, several calibers like the .338 magnum and .270 Winchester and 7mm magnum.

I will commend Mr. Hack for his information in the post he put forth but I shall continue to use what I know works, mushrooms out and causes lots of tissue damage, without just giving me an entry hole and exit hole with little damage to the animals vitals. The Trophy Bonded Bear Claw, Swift A Frames and Nosler Partitions, thank you Mr Hack.

Thanks JJ for the excellent report. I'm still using the 140TSX and the 250TSX(9.3x62). My experiences have shown them to be great bullets whether for antelope, deer, or elk.

Well to my simple mind those pictures of those Partitions in pieces does give me pause. As to the pass-through I much rather have two holes than one. I've used NPs all my life including Africa in my 300, but have mainly been a Swift A Frame user. With the advent of the TSX & TTSxs, I'm going lighter and faster. jorge

As stated before here any bullet can fail depending upon the conditions and the widely varied impact options, so with that fact in mind what is the default failure you prefer?

For my money, .... it's failure to open and then continue on the path I have chosen with my accurate bullet placement through the vital organs.

I know the whole thoery behind the partition, it's clearly stated in the original post here. I also know that they don't often end up in pieces of twisted copper and chunks of lead. But it happens. Much as a TSX as shown here can have the possible not opening failure.

With those as the options, I suppose I've never seen or heard of a Partition failing to open so that is not on the table for this discussion as far as I know?

Then which is the preferable worst case scenerio as a failure. Crumpled to bits of twisted copper and the lead squirting out? Or remaining a solid projectile which carries on through the point of impact you have chosen?

That bullet reminds me of what I pulled out of my elk this year:



What Mark Dobrenski pulled out of his antelope this year:



What Chuck Nelson pulled out of a Mule Deer this year:



As JJ's excellent post indicates, when TSX's work they work VERY well. When they don't, they REALLY don't, and frankly I've never seen more "problems" with a single bullet make in my years of hunting/handloading than the Barnes X/XLC/TSX/TTSX.

All the failures that I have seen personally with the various Barnes are much the same as posted by Brad which leads me to believe the problem is in the initial impact and the pinching shut of the hollow point...This makes me wonder if the new Barnes bullet with the plastic wedge, whatever its called, will be the answer to the pinching of the hollow point shut and will do what its designed to do and open the bullet up on impact and it just might be the answer to any problems that The X bullet has ever had?

I have noticed over the years that the Barnes bullets open up perfect on Cape Buffalo and I have never seen a failure. the few failures I have seen have always been on plainsgame, deer and elk..I told this to Barnes one time and he didn't seem to interested. It has always seemed to me when a Barnes bullet works it is the best, but when it fails it fails miserably..

I also have to say that I have many friends that are very experienced shooters and hunters and they swear by Barnes bullets.

Guess that's what makes a horse race.....:)

All the failures that I have seen personally with the various Barnes are much the same as posted by Brad which leads me to believe the problem is in the initial impact and the pinching shut of the hollow point...This makes me wonder if the new Barnes bullet with the plastic wedge, whatever its called, will be the answer to the pinching of the hollow point shut and will do what its designed to do and open the bullet up on impact and it just might be the answer to any problems that The X bullet has ever had?

I have noticed over the years that the Barnes bullets open up perfect on Cape Buffalo and I have never seen a failure. the few failures I have seen have always been on plainsgame, deer and elk..I told this to Barnes one time and he didn't seem to interested. It has always seemed to me when a Barnes bullet works it is the best, but when it fails it fails miserably..

I also have to say that I have many friends that are very experienced shooters and hunters and they swear by Barnes bullets.

Guess that's what makes a horse race.....:)

I have to go with the other's findings on Barnes failures. I'm a public land hunter, trophy unit tags are hard to come by. I can't afford the loss of an animal nor can I simply slip the guide a big tip and ask him to "find me another one".

So when it comes to bullets I use proven bullets like the Nosler Partition.

And I'm not sponsored by any bullet maker.

MtnHtr

Yes we have bananas. Copper ones.

JJ and others thanks for Posting results and pics.

I want to see an E-Tip recovered. Infact I patiently wait to see many E-Tips recovered. Before [bleep] head took office E-Tips were easily found for half the price of a TSX. I think they have a higher BC.

Hope some make the trip next year

Brad, its strange what happened to you guys, and you all know each other it seems, were these bullets from the same lot run? bad copper?

I had two XLC's fail to open,stopped using barnes all together till they came out with the MRX/TTSX, i know you had one o fthem not open. it does cause me some concern, but damn! the dozen or so critters i've shot, and another 20+ head of big game from buddies using barnes, i have been very impressed, more so than any bullet i've ever used.

Ray, my exact thoughts (and expressions/results). The X-type bullet is so easy to be enamored with when they work right....like they do most of the time. But when they don't, then you have what JJHACK was like before he became enamored of them; he disliked them to the point that he actually wrote on one of the hunting bulletin boards that he had seen an X do a 180 and bounce back out basically the same way it went it. (I can tell you, something's changed, and it hasn't been a drastic design change. But the constant and significant tweaking does tell one something about the fact that an essential problem must exist, otherwise why address "perfection"?)

You keep and X-type well into the 2Ks and shoot something with some resistance to high speed impacts and these bullets will work. (Perhaps that's why the reports from Africa come back so positive.) But do a softer animal - caribou come to mind- out at closer to a quarter mile give or take and then see what the numbers give you in terms of terminal results. And I've mostly had good results even then. But as anyone who's whacked game - even lethally- with spitzer FMJs can tell you, though there will eventually be an animal lying dead where the tracks end, finding the end of that trail - and how far- are questions that often aren't fun to learn the answers to.

I have followed this and many other Barnes bullets threads...

Although sometimes the calibre is not given, sometimes you can come pretty close to figuring that out from the picture if there is one.

It seems to me that all of the bullets which failed to open are small calibre. I cannot think of one larger than .338 which failed... (although perhaps some of the pictures were of a large calibre with nothing for scale, so some may have been mis-identified).

It is also perhaps not co-incidental that reports on big stuff like buff have been so uniformly good: one does not generally shoot buff with small bores.

Wish I had been collecting the data over the past years so I could analyze it!

Still, JJ has a pretty big database on .30 cal Barnes bullets and a pile of dead critters and that is hard to argue with!

Of course one has to expect a few failures with any bullet (and yes, even the Nosler Partition sometimes fails -- before I moved and lost it, I had one from a whitetail that evidently tumbled, shed both cores and lost much of the gilding metal). But, just like those pictures of the failed Barnes bullets, it was recovered from a dead critter.

John

HMMM, ok we have unopened TSX's which prove?????? how about what happened to the animal? Obviously they were recovered from a dead critter, pictures with no explanation is very subject to my B.S. meter, and man is it pinned!

what I find most fasinating about the "failed" and recovered bullets is that they were recovered in the first place. An expanded X bullet is rarely recovered, so how can one that acts like a solid stay in an antelope?

Something else is happening here...though we may never know what this actually is. Possibly the bullet, being a very long bullet, is understablized and is tumbling upon impact...?

Good morning Ray. The top bullet was a 30 cal, 150 gr, TTSX. The other two were the regualr TSX, Marks a 223, 52 gr TSX and the other a 140 7mm TSX.

I've had good results, including one perfectly shaped (recovered) TSX, but I'm also convinced a bullet that relies on a tiny air cavity to initiate expansion is likely to have far more problems than a typical lead core type bullet. As you indicate, the tip likely is "pinching shut" at impact and simultaneously tipping.

My bullet and Chucks were both recovered lodged backwards in the animal (ie, they tumbled). Can't remember about Marks.

That's like saying, "the condom failed but my girlfriend didn't get pregnant, so what's the big deal?"

Interesting that someone thinks something designed to do one thing, which does another, is acceptable... and it's not like Barnes bullets are exactly CHEAP!

I'm not interested in further explanation of each bullet, as every one has been fully documented on other threads so apparently your "BS Meter" isn't very accurate... use the search feature on this site if you want all the details.

Back to JJ's excellent post (and it is a very good one), I still think when the TSX works (and it usually does), it works darn well (though likely in truth, not really that much differently than a dozen other bullets) and when it fails, it REALLY fails.

If I want to shoot solids into an animal, that's what I'd pay for. The argument that even if they don't open, they maintain their weight acting like a solid (they actually don't as they tumble), I just can't buy into. But that's just me.

Mtn, that's where I ended up, coming back full circle.

There actually is no mystery to what is happening. It is a matter of terminal stability or the lack thereof.

One of the more endearing traits of a functioning TSX is the symetry of the opened bullet. Second, the front section is perpendicular to the centerline of the bullet.

These two traits conductive to terminal stability.

A failed TSX is lacking these atributes neccessary for "shoulder stabilisation" - hence tumbling occures - just as it would aon a spire pointed full metal jacket.

A tumbling bullet can not penetrate as far and as straight as a terminall stable one.

As a side note: this excample shows the dynamic nature off the often cited SD-Factor - the ratio of bullet mass to crosssection.
It changes with the opening of the bullet, as it does when the bullet turns sideways, then changes back when the bullet travels backwards... (as the concept is only a valid one to penetration when momentary bullet mass traveling viewed in relation to the area facing the direction of travel).

To conclude - the length of the bullet has nothing to do with the tumbling - the reason is the lack of "shape".

Interesting now are these points:

Percentage of failure to open?
What bullets do not open? Small dia. hypothesis, thank you, John.

Overall, TSX offer solid field performance.

JJ is one of the finest gentleman I have ever meet personally.
I have been reading his post for good grief 10 years now! Since the days of Shooters.com. I enjoy what he writes and he has PM me good advise on occasions. He is a mentor and one to be listened to.

But, he has as far as I know, has used this forum as a sales pitch for Barnes Bullets.

He is a spokesman for Barnes Bullets. He will obviously be biased. No doubt he believes in the product he uses.
But it will be a biased sales pitch.

I would think that if Nosler hired him out and sent him bullets to be used we would be seeing E-Tip reports from Africa.
But we won't because he's not sponsored by Nosler.

What about those of us not sponsored by Barnes who use their product and give the same reports. Sponsorship is not offered to those who do not hit the top of their game. It also does not negate the accuracy or integrity of the report, or indeed the man. Have you considered that his acceptance of their sponsorship may be due the quality of their product? Probably not. If you don't like Barnes bullets don't use them. No need to get in JJs face about it.

I don't know the man, but he seems like an honest fellow to me.
Randy

I didn't get in JJ's face bud. Read my post again.

Didn't I say that JJ is a mentor and should be listened to?

If you don't like my post don't read it.

If you are sponsored by a company you are going to give a sales pitch, that is your job. That's why you are sponsored and that's why JJ is posting this subject here.

He is promoting, it's an infomercial.

I have witnessed 4 similar TSX failures
2 with 140 gr in 7mm RUM
1 with 85 gr in a 240 wby
1 with a 168 gr 300 RUM

So it's okay even when the bullet never passes into/through the vitals as long as you can shoot well enough/(are lucky enough) to cut a major artery with said bullet? (Or can manage to get a second bullet into the animal?)

I was an advocate and defender of mono-coppers when many people still thought they weren't accurate enough to hunt with, and JJHACK was giving his view of them which were sometimes virtually opposite the ones presented here. (And even then I was put off by the fact that no two boxes of 150 XFBs could be counted on to work, shoot, or even look the same. And that factored into being the last straw for me.)

But Barnes bullets...the monos anyway, are bullets which many folks find it difficult to be objective about (not saying that I am either.) But long before they ever came on the market it was well known that even some of the fine varmint bullets of the pinched hollow point design did not have the same reliability of expansion as their otherwise designed brethren did.

But there are a lot of good bullets which will do the job. (Do we realize how lucky we are?) So, though the X design does do a heck of a job in many circumstances, there are others which, though perhaps less spectacular or maybe a bit more messy, can also do as well and sometimes better in terms of reliability. And some are better suited to parts of the range of use that is demanded of bullets these days. So, use what you like, but it is almost certain that when a Barnes or two goes sour, then you stop and think... and at that point, the honeymoon is over. And yes, there are still Partitions (and Swift's answer to many of the complaints about that design) as well as a host of newer good answers.

Here is how I break this argument down every time it comes up- and it comes up often. Not only on this forum, but every time I think I may want to try the newest, greatest thing available.

First priority to me is accuracy- if you can't hit what you aim at, near and far, it really doesn't matter if you're shooting a Polaris missile or throwing a rock. For me, Hornady, Nosler, and Aframes have given me more than acceptable accuracy in what I consider "game bullets". I've worked up very accurate loads with all of them that work in my rifles and don't give me problems.

Second priority and roughly equal to the first is on-game performance. Hitting a target is one thing, putting one through an animal in tough conditions is another thing altogether. I've had excellent results with the Hornady, Nosler Partitions, and Aframes. Not so much with some Sierras and Speers I use to load. Haven't really tried the Barnes X's much since I loaded them a few times with the old Barnes X's. Accuracy was awful and the fouling of my barrel was worse than my .17 Remington. I hate spending more time cleaning my barrel than actually shooting and loading!

Third priority is price and availability. Hornady's and Nosler Partitions are my go-to bullet most of the time just because I can afford to shoot more of them at the range and have confidence in their accuracy. They are easy to load for, give me superb accuracy, and game performance has been more than acceptable on anything I've shot with them.

To me, experimenting with bullets can and has been an exercise in frustration much of the time. Once I grew tired of the frustrating sequences- load, shoot, scrutinize, check seating depth, adjust seating depth and the myriad of other loading crtieria that can affect accuracy, etc..... I realized I already had bullets that performed perfectly for me and didn't create any frustrations at the loading and shooting benches. I like the KISS principle.
Along the way I was told that for my African trip, I should be loading a premium bullet for the big, tough game I would be going after. So, I spent the money on Aframes and set about building a load for them in my .338 for Africa. Luckily, my Hornady 225 bullets use the same load as my 225 Aframe loads and shoot to exactly the same point of aim. Problem solved.
Once I got back from Africa and the afterglow wore off, however, I soon realized nothing I shot in Africa needed the extra "performance" of the Aframe bullets and would have easily succumbed to any Hornady Interlock or Nosler partition at half the price. However, seeing those perfectly mushroomed Aframes that came out of a couple animals was pretty impressive and probably was worth the few bucks I spent. I wouldn't waste the money on them for this side of the pond however, nor will I spend the money on experimenting with the newest greatest Barnes, North Fork, etc.... lump of copper and/or lead unless I feel a need to and so far I just don't see the need. At 56 years of age, I doubt I will find that need before my hunting days are over- unless I hit the lottery and have a chance to hunt thick skinned, dangerous game like Cape Buff, Elephant, Rhino, or something that really does require the extra performance of the premium bullets. IMHO, thin skinned animals, be they here or in Africa, Canada, etc... just don't require an extra premium bullet from my experience. Just put a good bullet where it belongs and get your knife out.

If using the premiums gives you a woody, I'm all for it. Every guy should have a chance to have a woody while hunting once in awhile, right? But I doubt the game will be interested in what is exciting to you and/or the rifle you shoot.....

Sorry so long winded, but these threads just seem to go on and on with no resolution in sight. However, without these discussions, the pics of "failures" probably wouldn't have come to light and there would be no definitive proof one way or the other. And being the contrary, testosterone filled nuts that we are, and having access to this immediately accessible media these days, anecdotal evidence just isn't enough anymore.

Bob

Goshdangit Bob, I love to see you post!

It always amazes me that no matter how many folks say positive things about brand "X" (no pun intended) you always get a few folks saying the opposite. So what I do is look for "trends" and of course the validity of the individual posting the comment. I have limited experience with TSXs except to tell you they are the most consistently accurate bullets I've ever used. I like Swift A Frames, especially on the "other side of the pond" as one of you said. I love my Hornadys and I use them a lot on this side as well as Partitions. I won't use them again on anything faster than 2700 fps however. Again purely empirical, but the picture below shows a 180gr Hornady RECOVERED from an impala shot at 80 yards. It weighed 78-80gr out of a 300 Weatherby. The others shown are from a 375 H&H recovered from Zebra, Eland & wildebeest at ranges from 200-65 yards. Partitions always kill well for me, but I've seen enough blow ups not to use them on "money hunts". Do the TSXs fail? I'm sure they do. I've even seen a few posts of A Frames failing (but very few).

I'll go with JJ's recommendations and for my leopard hunt I have a whole batch o 210 TSX @2930 fps out of my 338.

Thanks for the follow up regarding the Barnes relationship, if that is what it's called.

I'm not now nor have I ever been a salesmen for Barnes, Hornady, Swift, or any bullet maker. I have over the years been contacted and used as a data refrence point by a number of companies that manufacture all sorts of hunting gear.

If I find something that works as I like it to, and they want me to also use it to report back on, then I'm more then happy to assist with the use of the products I like.

If I were contacted by a company to use their cup and core design and they were to sponsor me for this, I would flatly say absolutely not.... no way... no chance. The product must work for me first. These people are not my employeer, they are manufactures of produts and they want them tested to the best levels possible. They actively search out folks who they feel have this skill and ability and then they turn them loose with a supply to report back on.

My situation with Barnes was that I hated that X bullet more then anyone could imagine. I had more lost game, more bizzare recovered bullets, and more barrel fouling then anyone should experience in 100 lifetimes of shooting. They seemed to have a new design, plan, or coating every few months. Everything was a prototype and the load data was just as inconsistant. When people showed up with the X bullet, or the fail safe, I would just cringe and worry about how much time we were gonna hunt and how much time we were gonna be looking for lost game.

About two years after the TSX was introduced a very skilled and knowledgable PH spoke with me about these "new" bullets. I'm not so closed minded that I was blowing him off because my mind was made up. I listened because of the respect I have for him. That season I had several guys shoot game with the TSX bullets. However they were using normal for weight bullets, 250 in 338cal and 180 in 30 cal.

By the end of the season I was impressed to say the least. However I felt that driven faster they would open and cause much more damage. The only way for faster was ligher bullets in my simple mind. So the next year I loaded and took over bullets I bought with my own money and used without any sponsorship.

Upon my return I wrote a similiar document to this post. In that I said very clearly that there were things I did not understand about what I experienced. Enrty and exits that are identical, bullets lodged backwards and so on. But........ no animals lost of the 50 plus we shot with the TSX. No fouling and I was able to shoot a hole touching group the last few days I was there. This after the rifle had been uncleaned for 2 months of hunting every single day and having shot probably 50-75 rounds of the TSX by 6-7 different hunters.

So I was impressed with the positive changes Barnes made and I felt that further study must be made to get me a better level of resolution.

Remember I was.... early on a very strong sceptic, but now a bit more excited about the TSX. The next year we did the same thing again,.... and again the same results. I would guess thinking back we shot another 50 plus animmals and lost a single Blue Wildebeast. That animal was shot poorly by the admission of the hunter and we cannot blame the loss on the bullet or the cartridge. Then again last year, another 60 plus animals, and this years results as well. So what have we now, 250 plus animals shot, and most of those over 300lbs. During all this time we have lost a total of one single Blue Wildebeest which was shot poorly. Not a single animal from Steenbok and jackal to Eland and Giraffe was lost due to bullet placement with the 165 grain 30/06 bullet. How much resolution is this now for comparison? Say 200 animals over 300 pounds some over 500 pounds and some over a ton in body weight. How many life times of hunting feedback is that for a single hunter? At what point do you have to look at this and take notice of the success here?

Any bullet made, at some point will have something people will refer to as a failure. I don't care who makes it, it's probably been posted on the net with a photo and a critical comment. Barnes is not immune to these comments either. What is the ratio of failure, and what is the result of that failure? When a Bullet remains intact and continues on the path you chose with your aim, even a failure to open will destroy the tissue in that path. Compare that to a bullet that sheds the core(s) and or ruptures and leaves a path of torn and twisted jacket material behind. Then minimal remaining mass stops short of the vitals.

That's my opinion, take it for what it's worth here on this free site. We need to create income with the use of our choices, it's not just recreational but rather for a business, its a professional choice!

The last two years Barnes has provided me with some assitance and technical help to make things right with the loads. Everyone can have that with a simple phone call or Email. I was in the que with the rest of you where my support came from. They don't answer the red "bat phone" when I call for support.

So I have used their bullets because I believe in them now. I'm not using them becuse they showed up on my front porch and I had nothing better to use. In this business I use the best options I can find. These trips are expensive, and in many cases the lifes dream of the hunter. The business is not making any money while searching for wounded game, they only make money when shooting additional game. Keep that in mind, it's an important factor in the choices here for us. I want a bullet that will bring to a successful conclusion as quick as possible the death and recovery of every animal. Because that lets us move to the next one.

So what do you think I would choose? A bullet I get for free for a value of 50 bucks a box, or the trophy fees for the business day after day after day? This is a no branier folks. My equipment is chosen based on the greatest likelyhood of success and the most efficient means of harvest possible. Your mileage may very and you can certainly choose to fire any bullet you like. I'm not here to challenge anyones opinion where is differs from mine. I'm simply sharing my experience and you can digest this and use it to make your own choices.

JJ - any observations on the Barnes Banded Solids?

I have some of those in 270 gr / .375 cal also. I suspect some feeding issues with the nose profile.

After reading far too many of these "which is better, bullet X or bullet Y" posts, I have concluded that one should use a premium bullet and it does not matter much, if at all, which one.

I use 180 grain Partitions in .300, 450 grain TSXs in .458, and 450 grain North Fork solids (the best) for specialized situations.

These work. If I shoot something in the chest, there is no reason for a second shot. I can't see the slightest reason to experiment with something else.

Sheister - the opposite is also true. Even when hitting the mark, inadequate bullet performance is going to ruin your day. And not on DG only either.

JJ,

I apologize if I come off sounding harsh but what does it mean to be "sponsored by Barnes"?

I pretty much wrote Barnes bullets off when Ty Herring wrote hunters should aim for the shoulders when shooting big game animals in heavy brush about 4.5 yrs ago in the Barnes newsletter. Folks were writing and complaining about slow kills and losing animals in heavy cover when using TSXs. Of course in a couple days the newsletter was edited and that blurb was deleted.

You've shared some interesting and informative experiences on this forum in the past and I've learned from you. But there are simply too many folks (both old and young) who swear by Nosler partitions for BG up to NA bison or kodiak brown bears.

Thanks,

MtnHtr

I like Nosler Partitions, I have no complaints with them. As I said in the original post here, they are the base line of quality bullets in my opinion.

In their day they were the best available, but even Nosler has moved on with additional options in their lineup. If all I had to use for hunting the rest of my days was the partition I would not feel handicapped, I would however have to select shots with them differently then I do with the TSX. The TSX offers far more penetration then the Partition will.

At the end of the day, I'm just glad that the hunters coming over to hunt with me now are bringing a premium bullet to use. Africa, or any expensive hunt is no place for cup and core designs when many better options are available. In the grand scheme of the expenses for this trip it's a small additional cost. I know they are double or in some cases 3-4 times the cost of cup and core bullets, but then your paying over 2 thousand bucks just to fly there and spend a week or two. It's not like you're just hunting the back 40 afer work and can wait for the just the right shot or try again next time. In Africa each chance you pass could be your last at that animal during the short stay you have available. I'm hoping that the guys coming being the right cartridge, and bullet to take every advantage of each opportunity they have.

I have not used the banded solids on game, The standard TSX shoots fine as it is for all the game we hunt.

I think, if I were headed to Africa to do a mixed-bag safari, I would listen very carefully to what Mr. Hack has to say.

However, there are some obvious differences between a mixed-bag African safari, and deer hunting in America. Or elk hunting. Or antelope.

For instance, In Oregon, we can NEVER (that I've ever seen) be hunting both deer and elk at the same time. They shut deer season down for elk season, in areas where they would otherwise overlap. A guy can choose a great deer bullet in perfect confidance he won't have to use it on an elk.

Anyway, my take is very simple... even on elk, I haven't seen a need for a super-penetrator. Even the Accubond, regarded as somewhat "soft" in comparison to a TSX, has blown all the way through the body of the 4 elk I've seen shot with it. And as Mr. Hack has said on another of these damn TSX threads, the Interbond and Accubond are noticeably quicker killers. The 4 elk shot with them I've personally seen went DOWN. That has more value to me, than putting a TSX 4" deep into the tree behind the elk... and perhaps having him run a lot farther.

Also, having myself been very frustrated by the earlier X bullet's lack of consistancy and then discontinuation after I'd spent a bunch of money trying to find a load for it (in my .358), and seeing all the "banana" TSX's pictured here and elsewhere, it just leaves me feeling like it's still a work in progress- UNLESS you want a super-penetrator. And it sounds like on a mixed-bag African safari, that's a great idea. And I would most certainly give Mr. Hack's words great weight- if choosing a bullet for that.

If choosing a bullet for deer hunting, absolute maximum penetration is pretty far down my personal list. Same with elk. Have not yet drawn an antelope tag, but I can't see why that'd require it. Even our black bears ain't no big thang...

Just my thoughts. Now that this thread isn't just about Africa anymore, I thought it would be OK to post this... I've been holding off out of respect for JJHack, and out of appreciation for his obvious enthusiasm and huge body of experience with the TSX. In no way am I saying that he is incorrect in any way whatsoever.

JJHACK,
Awesome post! The TSX is my go to bullet for big game hunting. For me the TSX shoots like a match bullet plus its a killer on big game and no lead to boot.....

cmg, read my post and you will see that on-game performance is rougly equal to the first priority of accuracy....

I agree with JJ in that paying for an expensive trip like Africa (but could also include guided trip anywhere for that matter), it is only sensible to use the very best equipment. That is why I used Aframes for my African trip and I wasn't in the least disappointed to make that choice. The performance was spectacular, to say the least.
And, yes, I made a bad shot on a Wildebeest that took at least 4 long hours of tracking to find and finish off, just prior to an impending charge by the p.o'd animal. Time that could have been spent looking for the next animal in the bag. Luckily, my bad scope was easily replaced with a scope I had in QR rings and we were back hunting in no time.

In any case, I've found JJ to be as honest and analytical as can be when assessing equipment and as far as I'm concerned you can take his advice without reservation.
If I didn't already have a couple loads worked up for each of my big game rifles that have proven year in and year out to be very effective, I would jump on trying the TSX bullets in a minute just on the accuracy claims alone. Anyone who knows me realizes I don't mind spending money for an advantage of any sort. What I don't like is spending money for no real perceived value- which is why the original Barnes X bullets kind of make me wary of their bullets.

Or, maybe I'm just getting too old and cranky to change now.....

Bob

Hi Jeff -

Actually, I can hunt both deer and elk at the same time if I'm hunting deer on an Applegate ML tag and elk on a general season tag for the coast units which includes Applegate. I had a real careful discussion with ODFW on that to be sure I was legal deer hunting w/o the elk tag in my pocket during that time when the seasons overlap.

There are also some bow/gun overlaps for deer vs elk. For instance I believe the high cascade (119A) deer hunt overlaps with elk in some areas.

You should check the synopsis ... at least last year, there were warnings about where those overlaps occur so that people not wanting to be in an overlap area would know ahead of time and apply for something else.



Like you said, this has wandered a ways from Africa.

Tom

Bob,

read your post. Twas, why I paraphrased it. Guess I misinterpreted your analogy about the on game performance of said rock.

Other than that, I yearn for the age to be a curmudgeon.

Have a ways to go yet, I am afraid. Life is tough.

For those of you who have not enjoyed success with the TSX, don't use them. That will leave more for me. Price will reflect the slower demand and I can stockpile.

In my hands, they have performed admirably, and I have not found any other to be superior on game. Calibers I've taken game with the X or TSX include 9.3, .338. 8mm, and .30. All rifles produced a MV of less than 3000 fps, notably in the 2500-2750 fps range. Game taken range from deer/nyala to cape buffalo. It works for me.

I wonder if the sub-.30 caliber hyper-velocity crowd has a bigger problem with TSX than the rest of us? It would seem to follow since they have problems with all bullets.

Nothing quite like stirring the hearts of the internet crowd like trying to tell him your bullet is better than thiers..

JJ you should be ashamed of creating such a pandaminic!!

God is great, Beer is good, and people are crazy!

And that, economics of killing, makes sense in your business...in Africa, where the hunt is about plurality. I will agree with the idea that when the X design works as intended, it seems to kill faster in general than most, at least I always thought so. I don't think that really matters much most of the time for most hunting that is done by most people though.

Well I have at least 8 boxes of Barnes TSX bullets sitting on my reloading bench and I'll most likely use them for paper weights or Christmas presents to others. I did not purchase these mind you, they were exchanged for past XLC bullets that would not open up either. I will not waste anymore of my time nor money on powder, primers etc when it comes to Barnes bullets.

I don't need to read what others like or dislike, I found out for myself, what I needed to know and that is those TSX bullets do just as the Blue XLC and X bullets did in the past years.....They Don't Open Up!

I am content with spending my hard earned money on premium bullets for a money hunt and those are Nosler, Swift and TBBC bullets. If Barnes truely does fix their bullet problem, I might change my mind toward them but I seriously doubt this, as they been changing things since the mid-90's and still have not gotten it fixed. They do have very good PR work and advertising is top shelf too.

no that's 1 true statement that we can all bank on.......rej

Thanks for the report JJ, I've been a fan of Barnes bullets for a long time...even in the original X flavor.
However...a person might be rightfully suspicious of a guy that rides a Rokon...

Since JJ has not used the banded solids I thought I would jump in. I and the PH's I have supplied with these have used them with great success on Elephant and Cape Buffalo. We use a premium soft first on buff, then Banded solids but the PH will have the banded solids from the first shot on. On ele only solids all the way. For those of you who saw my DVD that incuded following up a wounded Cape Buff, I loaned the hunter my rifle loaded from the top to bottom with Barnes 400gr Banded solids at 2600fps from my 416 Rigby. They worked exeedingly well. Good initial 'thump' and then straight through deep penetration from any angle.

Put me in the 'bullet terminal performance FIRST, accuracy second' camp. I will and have, chosen a premium bullet that shot into 1.5 inches at 100 yards over a cup and core bullet that shot into an inch or less. Most of the time, though, the TSX and TTSX are the most accurate bullet one can use in his hunting rifle, but I used them (the original X bullet back then) 21 years ago when they were not always so accurate but still plenty good enough for big gmae hunting.

Ummmmmm..... I have and ride a late model customized ROKON as well. Is my rifle looney card now going to be retracted???

Now that right there is funny... and completely true

Whiskey is better

Tonk,

Are you interested in trading those worthless Barnes TSXes? What calibers and wieghts are they?

How about making mine Wild Turkey please!

Quite a few others have now come out with solid cooper bullets I suspect after seeing the success of the tsx, but I kinda feel like they have to with many states all ready outlawing lead ammo and many are in the process of following suit. Including washington which states it will be lead free by 2011. No bullet company is gonna let Barns be the only one sellin ammo in that state.

I heard several state that Nosler use's a very high quality alloy in production of the e-tip and that it will produce more consistant results related to expansion. (no friggin bananna's)

Me like's the results of the partition alot. I'm thinking the Partition is the best of both worlds. You know the perfect medium between the Interbond and the tsx. I'll bet blood trails are more consistant with Np's yet still great penetration.

Ray gotta love that song you quote from! Had the daughter load it on I-pod for recent trip over the pond and I must have listened to it 100 times!

Still looking for some old past bar patron to give me my first million however!

Ringman now that is a very strong possibility sir!

I have .338 caliber in 225 grain, 4 boxes. Also have 3 boxes of the .308 caliber in the 180-BT. 2 boxes of 7mm caliber in the 160 grian, however my son-in-law has spoken for those ok.

Now what do you have in the way of premium bullets to trade?

WOW talk about the ford vs chevy debate. I must admit I enjoy reading everybodys panties getting in a wad.....I am not a PH but I do use Barnes TSX in every rifle I own (6) and I can tell you they all shoot more accurate than I can and I have shot a pile of game with them as well. Mostly in Texas (hogs, exotics and whitetails, probably around 175 or better) I personally have yet to have a failure with one (recovered only a few). My buddy calls them my armour piercers. Thats OK though everybody has to use what makes them comfy. JJ, when I book with you that is what I will be bringin'

Tonk,

Thanks for posting. I use 210 in the .340 and 150 the .308. Maybe someone else wants your stuff.

God is great, beer is good, whiskey is better, monolithics bullets are both good and bad, and people are still crazy!

Tonk,

Can you tell me about your failures with the TSX. I've read accounts of others here and I would like to hear more.

Thanks
GK

Hey Tonk, bullet selection is somewhat limited for my 500 Jeffrey (no North Forks), so what would be your go to bullet as opposed to the TSX. I was thinking of loading up 600g Woodleigh PPs limiting the velocity to between 2000 fps and 2100 fps to keep recoil (and shoulder pain) under control and prevent over expansion. Would that be a good choice for brown bears and cape buffalo? Like all of us, I want something that will expand reliably and hold together and penetrate.

By the way I did buy a lead sled today, lol ...

Regards,

Chuck

"I want something that will expand reliably and hold together and penetrate"

You forgot to add "at any distance"! Just kidding, I've seen this written and heard it spoken more times then I can count.

We place a lot of demands upon the one item we blast out the end of a barrel and send down range hoping it will do the trick. We spend a lot of money on very expensive gear, and yet we cringe at the tought of spending a buck on a bullet. Yet it's the single thing that ties the success of the whole trip together for us.

After all the effort to plan, prepare, travel and pay for the hunting trip of a life time there are still people who launch a 20 cent bullet and put all the hopes and dreams of success on that little chunk of lead and/or copper they just shot down range at the trophy they have been dreaming of maybe their whole lives!

If you want a bullet to expand reliable and hold together, the partition, Aframe, and other bonded core bullets do that like magic. They don't however penetrate as well. If you want one that penetrates like no other the TSX does that well.

There is Crossover with them, the bonded technology will penetrate and exit when you use a bigger cartridge then generally needed. Like using a 375HH for all the plains game species rather then a 30 caliber rifle. There is Crossover with the TSX as well. You can use a much smaller cartridge then typical and still get equal or even more penetration then the bigger guns using the bonded bullets.

Those photo's of X type bullets that don't open cannot be argued, at least not by me. They have the photographic proof to show it could happen, It may have even happened with bullets I or my clients have shot too. I guess We will never know becuse the animals are all dead and skinned.

If your aim is true, and the bullet hits and penetrates through the vitals then the failure to open, although bad, is not the last word. In my opinion, a bullet that falls short of functional penetration because of some failure is the worst default option. I have seen some odd exit wounds, and completlty bizzare issues with the early X design. But not with the TSX, ..... it's simply does the trick everytime. There is a good reason why so many African PH's (its becoming overwhelming in numbers) recommend the X bullet to hunters coming over to hunt with them. This was not the case 10 years ago. We would cringe at the thought a hunter came with an X or worse the failsafe.

That has really swung the other way in the last few years. I see and hear PH's all the time now telling their hunters to consider bringing the "Barnes X" bullets to hunt with.

My latest reason for not shooting monolithics has nothing to do with success or failure..it has to do with free choice, and when the Democratic Liberal far left placed demands for "LEAD FREE" bullets and the manufacturers buckled under to it that really P.O me, and I don't intend to buckle under to a bunch idiots with an agenda...I am going to shoot lead bullets until hell freezes over..

God is great, beer is good, some say Whisky's better, and people are crazy!

if i remember his post about it, he never really used them on game, just that they didnt open up when shot into a water tank..

Mr. Atkinson I guess you best move over just a bit because I will also be using those LEAD BULLETS too!

Ive heard the same thing from a lot of guys over the years. Until I asked exactly how many animals they shot with them to form the opinion. Generally is was a couple but they shot into lots of mud, newsprint, logs, waterjugs, etc.

There is a differnce in shooting many hundreds of animals versus a few dozen phone books, stacks of paper or water jugs.

Whooooa Hoss! I have used Barnes bullets on big game fact. Now I have NOT used the TSX bullets on any big game simply because if they don't pass a frigging water test, they are sure as "bells" not going to do worth a hoot on any big game animal I shoot understand.

I have had several pass through shots on big game animals using the Barnes X and XLC bullets. However I am not going to go into a lot of details on my passed experiences with Barnes bullets, like whipping a dead horse several times over. If you like em use em it's that simple. I don't like them for obvious reasons and I am sure as hell not going to use them period.

Now on the other hand, I will continue to use those Nosler bullets in partition and accubond version. The TBBC and Swift A Frames for hunting purposes. I would suggest you run a water test on the next batch of Barnes bullets prior to your hunt.

Never ran a water test - have used TSX on game in:

6mm Remington
.30-06
.308
9,3x64
.45-70

Worked so well, I never felt the need for a water test.

Well said. I and my hunting clients have used them (X, XLC, TSX and TTSX bullets) in calibers from .243 up to and including 458 Lott on animals from 40 to over 2,000 lbs. They simply do thier jobs better than anything else out there made to date. In my world, a water test is what happens to a guy's bladder when he is face to face with something large and bitey. Never hunted for water tanks, might have to take that up when I am too old to hunt Elephant and such

I've no dog in the fight here. Folks should use what they like and what they feel comfortable with. I don't make one penny from Barnes or any other Manufacturer today. However,... I hate to have young guys or those with minimal experience read some of this and assume that if a bullet is tested in water under unknown conditions by an unknown individual without any control over the consistancy of the results, .....and then compare that to the same bullets used with stellar results on many hundreds of real big game animals using my equipment with me and many of the visitors here that have hunted with me as eye witnesses to the results that some how the two examples are equal. Or that they somehow share the same preformace credibility.

I agree that shooting bullets into something other then game has some entertainment value and may reflect some of the performance possibilities of that bullet. However actual use in the field under actual hunting conditions on real animals at various distances and angles with game from Jackal and steenbok to Buffalo, eland, Giraffe, and rhino would seem to trump any results using water.

However this is just my opinion, and since it comes from real world first hand experience I gotta go with that for now.

Can anyone here explain what it means to be "sponsored by Barnes"???

Thanks,

MtnHtr

Well, I guess I must be the only hunter east of the Rockies that has had serious issues with BARNES BULLETS "NOT OPENING UP AS ADVERTIZED"......nonetheless I won't be using them period on any of my hunting ventures.

Now it seems to me, that one can tell how good a product is by those stores that stock the product on the shelfs right! Ok, most of the gunstores I have visited in the last 2 years in states like Nebrasks, Wyoming, Colorado, Missouri, Kansas, Iowa, Kentucky, Tenn. to boot, have had very little in Barnes bullets on the shelf or none at all Elephant hunter from Walla Walla. Barnes has had a great track record over the last decade or so for NOT living up to the hipe they put out concerning their bullets. They try and try and never make the grade, then come out with something totally comic and super great, only to have the same frigging problems. I stay with whom I brought to the dance gents!

Now when we were pulling a tractor some years ago, a sponsorship meant the company or person, paid a certain percentage of the expensses and also a stipend in many cases. You can have several sponsors who share fotting the bill etc.

Can you find the Barnes X and TSX?


These bullets were collected during a range session in June. I typically shoot the bullets into wet phone books at 50 yards. This time the books were new and hadn't yet been rained on, so they were dry. I do agree that no amount of shooting into test media will predict the actual performance on game, but on the other hand it allows us some type of gauge to compare the bullets to. And I do beleive that it is a whole lot better then going into the field blind going strictly upon the reputation and PR of the manufacturers. This web site and others, IMO, provides some excellent in field experience, that few of us will ever aquire. That being said once my gauge is calibrated, I have a good idea how that bullet will work in the field. For instance I know that a bullet that penetrates 14 inches in my media will pretty much penetrate through any medium size beast. 18 inches of penetration will go through kudu, waterbuck and gemsbok. Over that we are talking about buffalo bullets. During this testing the 404 Jeffery in 400 grain TSX penetrated 23.75" at a muzzle velocity of 2000 fps. Though the bullet didn't open as much as I like it penetrated well and straight. On the other hand the 400 gr Barnes Originals did not perform well, they bent and penetrated only 12".

We owe it to the game we hunt, and lost trophy fees to shoot the most suitable bullet we can for quick recovery of the game. There is nothing like spending two days looking for a wildebeest when with a better quality bullet you could be hunting other game. And lastly, we don't always get that perfect broadside shot on a 7-14 day safari and we must take what we are given, I want a bullet that will perform under all conditions.

Funny to me how some of these things begin to rile folks up. It's as if these bullets are one of your offspring or a wife or girlfriend. The defense and or attack of a product like this is hysterical to me. I wrote a post based on what I saw, then some folks tell me I did not see it, but they seem to want to prove that what happened again this year was a fluke, a lie, somekind of smoke and mirrors. As if I have some special agenda to attempt making people buy something.

When I took the time to write this for the benefit of those without the experience of seeing it themselves. I did not do it to generate debate, or argue the perfect product for all hunting now and in the future. I simply did it to share the experiences I had.

If your feelings are different then this, I wish you well and hope that as a hunter and sportsman you have all the success in hunting that you wish for. There are plenty of other people that hate hunters and what we do to waste anytime in a conflict over this non-sense for me. If you feel the need to be aggressive, angry, or your opinion is not shared with this, then maybe you should write a new post to express the experiences you have had with all the big game you have taken with your projectiles.

Good luck with the future hunting and I wish you well.

Tonk,

I am curious why you clicked on a thread dealing with Barnes TSXes. If you don't mind, would you mind explaining it to us who wonder why you would read about something you detest so much?

The past year or so, haven't seen many bullets from ANY manufacturer on the shelves of gunstores. The shelves have been bare of reloading supplies.

It might could. Depends on how many playing cards you have clothes-pinned to the spokes.

JJ,
I for one, am enthralled when I see your posts. It gives me real world reference to which I can make a logical choice in bullets. This information you provide at no cost to me is invaluable. God knows (and I don't use His name loosely) I must maximize every opportunity I have to hunt. I spent hundreds of dollars over my earlier years for opinionated gun mag's trying to glean some formulated information on good bullets.

You do this of your own good will for us, without erroneous bias and I thank you.

Ringman I don't know what your game is but I don't play damn games understand. Now I read and click on many posts. I don't detest anything Pal, I simply don't use Barnes Bullets to hunt with anymore.

Now Pal, if I detested Barnes Bullets, I sure as dogs bark, would not have spent the money I have in testing the blessed things in the first frigging place.......I guess your just a little dense to that )_&(*(_*^)*&^ FACT.

Now your the one who wanted to trade for my Barnes TSX bullets but you never mentioned what it was you had to trade......right JACK! Now don't be shy, you didn't have a damn thing to trade, you just wanted to get my reaction to your post. Lets not be coy Pal!

Hatari......YOU seem to have left out the YEAR prior.


Dah!

Well to jump into the middle of a religious war here, I have two bullet choices for an expanding bullet that I'm aware of for my 500 Jeff. Either the Barnes TSX or Woodleigh Protected Point. Though I'm probably two years out for a brown bear hunt, I'm leaning towards the 600g Woodleigh PPs for bear. I'm leaning towards the Barnes 570 TSX / Banded Solids for buffalo which is probably four years out. I really kind of wish Woodleigh would make more of a controlled expansion bullet or Barnes would put a much larger hollow point in their .510 caliber TSX or North Fork would make one of their expanding bullets in .510 caliber ...

Chuck

JJ,

Thanks for some valuable info.

Bears are really soft skinned, and much more lightly constructed compared to the big African vegans. The soft point is a great choice on the brown bear. I also agree that the TSX for the big African game is a much better option.

It's gonna be hard to make a bad choice with a 1/2" diameter bullet over 500 grains in weight. No bear or Buffalo alive is a match for that combination put into the right place. I've seen both killed with guns that are not even close to that level of power.

Your never over gunned for these species, but your certianly at the upper level of Firepower!

Thanks JJHACK... I'm taking my 500 Jeff deer and elk hunting this year, hoofing it up and down the Colorado Rockies with my 11 lb rifle should whip me into shape. Hopefully I'll be in shape before the season arrives.



Chuck

Rokons ain't got no spokes

Seriously, most come with hollow wheels that hold water or extra fuel for long cross country travels.

Back to the topic..... WOW!!! Some folks DO get overly riled at this stuff that is supposed to be fun.... I like them and use them, if someone wants to use something else that has worked for a long time for them, OK by me just go have fun and be a good sportsman about it.

I sure would like to be 'sponsored' by Barnes or some such, I could use a little extra money for my hunting funds. So far, I still pay my own way.

JJ

As a someday wannabe for Africa, I want to thank you for the time it took to write all this up for those of us who appreciate it. I will never live long enough to come close to doing 10% of what you and others have done so I live vicariously through you and these posts. I WILL go to Africa someday, God willing, and then I too will be hooked. I have met a PH from SA at a local hunting show and hope to go with him in the future.
As far as opinions go, we all have them...to argue over some of what has been written here is just childish. If hunter A loves bullet "B" ,so be it...if hunter C hates them, so what? All need to remember, we all have opinions, just like a-holes...thanks again for the knowledge based on what you have seen.

JJ;

Thanks for your excellent posts!

I've only been to Africa once... and that was for a visit with my eldest son and family who lived there at the time, and he arranged for a one-day "safari" where I managed to wack a couple of warthogs with his 12-gauge and Brennekes.

My interest has to do with black bears, moose, etc. Last fall I took my 458WM loaded with 350gr TSX's to Northern Ontario for a moose hunt. No moose showed so I didn't get a chance to try them on big game. MV was 2700+fps. Bear are so dominant now in N. Ontario, that predation on moose calves has reached 70 to 80%!

This year the 350 TSX's will be tried on a black bear, either from my 458WM or my Ruger No.1 45-70 Improved (long-throated)at 2470fps. Since I'm known in this area as a guy with quite a bit of experience with bears (not going into details here), I've been invited to deal with a "monster" bear that's become a local problem bear. The owner of the property has recently shot, and killed, a couple of the offspring, or buddies, of the "monster". They weighed about 300 lbs each. Now, the bear in question has a head that's at least over 20" wide (I'll not go into details over that either - but that's valid)and easily reaches with his paws over 9 ft, by tree markings and knocking down a bird feeder at that height - observed. Also, family members chased into the house and a horse attacked and serious damage done.

In a week or so I'll be setting a bait in the bush about 150 to 200 yards from the house. In baiting, I'll be carrying a rifle for self-defence. It's close quarters in there so it'll not be the 458WM while transporting bait. Once the bear is coming I'll put up a treestand at about 35 to 40 yds from the bait. The 458 will not be used in those close quarters but likely my Ruger No.1 shooting the 350TSX at about 2470 fps. While lugging bait it'll be the Ruger, as my Marlin (45-70) is at the smith's getting a couple of inches removed from the muzzle-end (that's the one I'd prefer to be tottin'for personal protection).

Questions: do you have, or do any of your clients have experience with the Barnes 350-gr TSX in .458" in Africa? And,if so, how did it work? And, what velocity for impact would you think would work best on a 500 to 700 lb bear?

It IS very accurate in both rifles and has a significant diameter cavity in the nose. Barnes (Ty)says it will start to expand in a water test down to 1600 fps.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.


Bob

www.bigbores.ca

Sheesh...I am reminded of the saying back during the Crusades [ah, those were the days!], went like, "kill them all and let God sort them out."

I have NEVER used Barnes anything bullets, mostly because I hunt pigs and deer [and 'Yotes of course]. To be honest I have never had an issue with any of the hunting bullets I've used. Of course I don't kill anywhere near as much game as some here post about, not a value judgment or anything, I just don't pull the trigger unless I'm pretty positive I can drop the animal.

So I'm by no means a world authority.

Now what I am wondering is how, if a bullet can be such a flop, and moreover if this company apparently has never made a good product, it could still be in business and thriving.

My guess is that Barnes bullets must work for some people, right?

Anyway I ordered a few different calibers, a medium caliber, .264 and a bigger one .338, both in the TSX plastic tip thingie version.

I've got an open mind, but now my curiosity is really tweaked.

Fwiw a week ago I blasted a cross-tied stack of newspapers about 14 inches thick. It was pretty dense and a 140 grain Hornady SST just creamed right through it.

I expected it to make it about 10 inches in, but I was surprised.

Yeah it aint a deer or any other game but it does tell you something, even if that is only that if you are going paper hunting this will prolly reliably drop a stack of New York Times.

Ok, that's my two sense, on with the Inquisition!

twosixfour

Welcome to 24hrcf! And pretty darned good early post for a newbie. Well said.

As you prowl about this site yo will find some of us like older or even new but in the clasic style blued steel and good wood rifles wheras many others like the synthetic/stailnless stuff. All is good and all in fun MOST of the time. Don't know why it is not always that way, some folks tend to get thier panties in a wad too quickly over stuff that should be easy to talk about as adults. Might have a 12 year old or two posing as adults, one of the 'miracles' of the internet.

Your monicker is one of my all time favorite calibers. It should have been more popular than it was but is still well liked out here where shots at mule deer run long. Try the 100 or 120 gr TTSX over a good stiff dose of R-22, On deer I predict that you will love the results.

Was the 140SST from your 264 winmag? That is a bullet with great sectional density so if that was the case I am not surprised at the results.

"On with the inquistion" Good one, laughing here.

Good hunting, MARK

Hey RINGMAN......Now just who is US my dear fellow?

Those Barnes Bullets in TSX have been sold American, for the US faction on this forum.

Now JJ HACK for someone who has NO DOG, you sure do spend a lot of time hitting those type keys. I guess it is just in your blood. Now speaking of blood or bloodlines, bring your dog over to my kennel. LOL. I hope you got a good one!

Tonka Toy,

That post was way out of line. You need to grow up, boy.

Now, lets all get back to having fun and having an adult conversation or two about guns and bullets and hunting and such.

MARK

Tonk asked,



"US" are the adults who ponder these things.

Well, after all these years on line I have never done this, but I just put a troll on my ignore list. Won't be able to see any of Tonka toy's rants. What a piece of work. Oh well. Once again GREAT POST and Kuduo's to a fine gentleman named JJ Hack.

DNFTT....

MARK

Thanks JJ for your time and effort. The TSX have been great for me since they were introduced. I have taken 20 or so animals with excellent results. The two bullets that I recovered were 100% weight retention.
Please ignore the POS that has no clue what is going on. Some fools just keep going and going and.......

Of only two recovered one was 183/185 gr the othere went through leg bone left side rib left side rib right side and leg rt side. It lost 3/4 petals but was mushroomed to .505" and weighed 135/165. Both bullets were recovered from a 42" gemsbok. The 185 grain at distance was .7xx" starting at .338. I have been shooting X bullets since first available, and this is the first two recovered ever by me.

Twosixfour welcome aboard, sounds like you make up your own mind based on experience and not our conjecture. Glad to have you posting.
Randy

Of only two recovered one was 183/185 gr the othere went through leg bone left side rib left side rib right side and leg rt side. It lost 3/4 petals but was mushroomed to .505" and weighed 135/165. Both bullets were recovered from a 42" gemsbok. The 185 grain at distance was .7xx" starting at .338. I have been shooting X bullets since first available, and this is the first two recovered ever by me.

Twosixfour welcome aboard, sounds like you make up your own mind based on experience and not our conjecture. Glad to have you posting.
Randy

I'd say another welcome aboard for twosixfour...sounds like a common sense kinda guy....
As you see, some guys here really get lit up over things like this..I just posted on another thread, I'm a TSX fan Big Time ( Though I gotta say I did not like the original X Bullets...too hard to get them to shoot) Between my wife and I we are 20+ animals with the TSX, NA and African PG and lovin' the performance....
We still use some other brands for various applications,so I'm a boolit slut...but I'm in the + camp for TSXs..
Ingwe

JJ,

At the risk of hijacking your thread, I am going to post two results of two TSXes I heard about today. Both shots were at the same elk.

The first shot was the 100 grain TSX from a .25-06 AI. Cliff chronoed thema at 3,600! They lazered the elk at 562 yards. Cliff said the fellow got a little excited and didn't wait 'til it turned completly broadside. He hit it quarting toward him. The 100 grain TSX entered about two or three ribs from the paunch. It exited the off side ham. He said this is the first one he has shot that did not drop at the shot. It ran toward them for about fifty yards.

The second shot was a 120 grain 7mm TSX chronoed at 3,800 from a 28" barreled RUM. When the elk stopped Cliff fired. The TSX entered the near shoulded. It traveled through the lungs and exited. He has not any, including this one, take a step after hit by one of his 120 grain TSXes. The shot was 510 yards.

Cliff has two friends who shoot twenty-five calibers at elk. Of the 14 shot with them, this is the first that did not drop whre it was hit. That's why I ordered a .257 Roy. Can't help myself.

TY Safari.

No actually the .264 Hornady SST was out of a 6.5x 55, probably 2,600 fps or something close to that.

I also shot that long Hornady 160 RN and it plowed through also, but I expected that. "Wound" channels looked about the same.

Again, I was surprised that the SST which I have never hunted [successfully, lol] with would have that kind of penetration.

Anyway waiting for the TSXs to arrive on Monday.

JJ
Thanks for sharing all that You have seen and done with us.
To tonk and his kind the gentleman JJ is one of the most stand up guys I have ever had the pleasure of meeting. I know him, booked with him, and he has fished in my boat {not many people get to do that}. If he says a bullet works You can go to the bank on it. I use them, noslers, both in Africa and almost all of the others. While there are lots of folks on here that that have killed more stuff than I have, I've killed alot of big game animals with a bunch of different calibers and bullets. By the way Barnes 270 gr. tsx's started at 2800fps from a 375HH do a great job on cape buff.

twosixfour
That 160gr 6.5x55 is indeed a penetrating round
Randy

Lots' of folks sometimes type stuff that they later regret unfortunately on the Internet. I for one appreciate both JJHACK's and Tonks insights (if not the emotion). I'm thinking 600g Woodleigh PPs for big bears at 2100 fps and 570g TSX's backed by 570g Barnes Banded solids at 2150 fps for the big African beasties.

Once again thanks to JJHACK for sharing his experience and photos.

Chuck

Safariman or Women, now that street runs both ways...Dah!

Safariman.....Now YOU seem to say I have ranted with my posts but in reality sir, I have told the facts about those BARNES bullets weather you like it or not.

Now comes your post calling me a quote: BOY! Well, years ago I might have been but I can assure your arse I am not a boy any longer and I don't "rant or rave" about anything big game hunter.

I call a spade a spade and that should be simple enough for you or anyone else to understand. Sorry dear sir! It seems I have ruffled your tail feathers just a bit Rooster, to bad.

Now you can go play in the corner with your BARNES BULLETS and get all the satisfaction your heart desire's. I'll stick to my guns with NOSLER'S, SWIFT A FRAMES and TROPHY BONDED BEAR CLAWS bullets and won't have any disappointments on my hunts.

Just for newbie Tonk-

*** You are ignoring this user ***

You earned it!

A good bullet, delivered in the right place will almost always deliver a satisfactory result when hunting.

Face it, there is no such thing as a perfect bullet, because it is impossible to design.

What are your most important parameters and in what order of ranking are they important?

Accuracy, penetration, retained weight, etc.?

Or just the result, dead game?

All bullets are compromises, because if you want a reasonable market share you have to convince a lot of folks that your product is good and everyone looks at these things slightly differently, so necessarily bullet mfgrs produce products which hopefully satisfy as many as possible.

I am still surprised how some bullets which have reps of high frangibility [Nosler BTs for example, in smaller calibers] often deliver great penetration. I remember hitting a hog in the shoulder from close range with a 150 gr BT from a .280.

It thoroughly penetrated both shoulders and almost blew the offside foreleg off. I did recover some shards of the bullet but there wasn't a whole lot left.

Still the piggie dropped on the shot and croaked very quickly.

Shot placement is everything.

Did this bullet fail?

Well I guess technically it might have in the sense that weight retention was almost nil.

If you set the argument up in advance you can almost always skew it to support your "facts" [often observations based on limited data points] but in the real world dead game is pretty much the determiner of whether a bullet "worked" or not.

Regretfully agree Hunts

Chuck

This might need to go to a new thread, say in hunting rifles or similar area but to me an exit wound is really important to give a good blood trail and to know that I got through the whole thoracic cavity BUT, If that was the ONLY parameter I would just shoot solids so some expansion is also important. Acuracy only needs to be good enough for hunting the game at hand at the ranges that engagement will occur. 1 inch groups at 100 yards are completely a non issue when hunting cape buff, for example. I do demand this and beter from my 257 WBY. In most cases the TSX and TTSX do all that I need a bullet to do and more.

COLORADO: As this LOOOOONG thread shows, plenty of fine bullets out there...and plenty of opinions.

Here's one of the latter: with the very powerful firearm you are using, try the A-Square Dead Tough. Or, if you want/need a solid, A-Square Monolithic. Work awfuly well when downloaded. Accurate, consistent in quality and real-world performance.

BUT:

1. Not always easy to buy; and,
2. Bring your wallet.

Thanks wpsuth. Since I've got a load pretty much worked up with the 570g TSX at 2100 fps and it's shooting sub MOA, I'll try it on deer and elk. If it expands well on them it should be fine on the bigger / tougher critters.

The dead tough 570g and 600g bullets are a good option I hadn't thought of.

Regards,

Chuck

Chuck, didn't you know that a 570gr bullet is not big enough to use on a deer?

Wow, and I though my shooting of ground squirrels with my 416 Rigby was a bad case of rifle looneyism.....

We simply MUST get a report back and some pictures of this adventure. A good idea, I must say. Nothing like actually taking your DGR out hunting and using it to gain familiarity with it.

Absolutely, elk and deer season are in October in Colorado. I may try for black bear as well.



Chuck

I'm sure not taking sides in this, but I've shot seven African animals with Barnes bullets, and a pile of American animals with partitions and TSXs. All of them died and were recovered. So, as far as deadly, they're pretty much the same to me.

However,the Barnes are far more accurate in my guns (223, 243, 260, 270, 7-08, 308, 30-06, 300 SAUM, 300 Win Mag and 375 H&H).

could be a fluke, though ;-)

Thank you for taking the time to post your very complete results using these bullets.

I am set to start using the Barnes bullets in 2 rifles I will hunt with this year. I cannot imagine them expanding less or killing worse than the wasp 100 grain broadheads I kill deer with. In my lifetime I have personally not shot a WT deer yet that I could not find if it had two holes in it (in and out). I have however trailed a bunch with one hole in them from an underpowered bow with dull broadheads and we find about half of those sometimes after hours of crawling thru every type of snake infested lyme tick hole in the county. Many years ago I got a bad corneal abrasion from a twig doing that trailing at night once, again 50 pound bow and a butt shot in Eastern NC.

Thankfully the State of GA is looking out for us and we can now use crossbows. My "bud" bought one a few years ago and he has only lost one in the last few years with the 175 pound crossbow.

It is a fact that I do not need to shoot barnes bullets to kill GA whitetail deer, but its a free(r) country (so far) and it is my perception that they seem to offer some force amplification. So if they shoot in my rifles I get to burn less of my now $27/pound powder to do the same thing!

After shooting into some catalogs at 100 yards last week with 4 of my rifles and standard bullets I am positive that if I were to ever get to go to Africa, my 300WSM would be loaded with Barnes bullets.

My brother was shooting squirrels with a .177 cal pellet rifle. I don't have a heavy rifle, but had a massive failure with my 338 win mag small bore. Such a failure that all I saw was a red mist when the trigger broke. Probably too fast at an old X bullet 175 gr at 3200 ft/sec. I fear it was bent or tumbled when it hit the squirrel. I did not recover either the sqirrel or the bullet. Makes me want to quit using those old poor quality bullets. Squirrel at 150 yds on the top of my neighbours feed shed. He let me have first shot as he was sure those inaccurate Barnes would probably miss or only wound.

Randy