for cape buff and ele? I realize softs/solids on the buff, and solids all the way for the ele. But, Barnes, Noslers, Hornady, Woodleighs? How do I do some initial sorting out, before I wind up buying way to many bullets to try?

Also, what are the chances of loading softs and solids and getting them to hit at the same POI? I want the loads to be around 2400 fps, does that nock some of the bullets out initially[ie: Barnes]?

maddog

md...I personally liked and used the 300 gr. Swift A-Frame and monolithic solids ( also 300 gr)... I believe I used earlier Barnes solids but today Id use their banded solid...really good design. The Swifts did an excellent job for me and others....they shoot well, and with the ,375 its no great trick to get POIs pretty much touching....

Lots of good bullets out there today...so get ready for lots of advice..conflicting and otherwise...

Ingwe

Thanks Ingwe! I thought I might initially get some 300 gr. hornadys to practice with, and to get used to the rifle.

You got any pet loads to try, especially for getting the softs/solids to hit the same POI?

maddog

Pet loads for me were 64 gr. of IMR4895 behind the .300 grainers...they hit within 3/4 in of each other in my rifle.Velocity was right at 2500 fps. Seating depth was always easy with the .375, seat them so they fit in the Magazine, or in your case...the chamber...
300 Horns. would be a good practice boolit, and we ( me and a pard..) used some on PG with great results..

Ingwe

This thread will no doubt bring forth various suggestions from many hunters, all promoting their favorite .375 "soft."

I will only note that the most experienced African PH I have hunted with prefers his .375 H&H when backing up buffalo hunters, reserving his .458 Lott for elephant guiding. I asked him what expanding bullet he prefers in the .375 (and his preference is for expanding bullets) and he said, "Whatever my clients leave behind. Today they're all good."

This guy has been either a game ranger or PH for over 40 years now, and has personally killed over 600 buffalo, so I listen when he talks.

Everyone has their own pet ideas on this and the subject probably inspires more campfire debates than most other subjects.

Personally I like the GS Custom flat nosed mono solid and the Woodleigh PSP.... and yes, you should be able to load them to the same POI without too much trouble.

I'll throw my 2 cents in for what its worth. Basically, I'm in agreement with Ingwe. I, too, like the Swift 300gr for softs and most any solid will work and usually they can be made to hit at some POI. I had really good results with the Northfork solids and they have a stellar reputation. Northfork used to sell a trial pack of 5 solids for you to try, basically to make sure they would feed in your rifle, so that might be a cheap option to look at if they still offer that option. You also shouldn't have any issues with hitting 2400 fps with any bullet, Barnes included.

Test

First, you don't need solids for buffalo any more unless you are shooting Sierras or some other tinfoil bullet. With todays's premiums, you only need solids for elephant, rhino or body shots on Hippos on land. Personally I've shot buff with A Frames (375 and 416 Rigby) and they were magnificent. Today and if your rifle shoots them, there is no better bullet in terms of penetration and performance than the TSX and for your 375 I'd go with the 270gr pushed as fast as I could get it. jorge

First, you don't need solids for buffalo any more unless you are shooting Sierras or some other tinfoil bullet. With todays's premiums, you only need solids for elephant, rhino or body shots on Hippos on land. Personally I've shot buff with A Frames (375 and 416 Rigby) and they were magnificent. Today and if your rifle shoots them, there is no better bullet in terms of penetration and performance than the TSX and for your 375 I'd go with the 270gr pushed as fast as I could get it. jorge

ORIGINALLY POSTED BY JORGE...........................



+++1

Look up JJ Hacks and others reports here and in big bore rifles on the Barnes 270gr TSX. It does not get any better than that.

I still believe in having solids in the magazine for shooting lengthwise through a Buff who might be going straight away from you or straight at you. Barnes Banded solid of the same weight or 300gr in the mag would be my pick.

maddog,

I have used the Remington Safari ammo with the 300 gr Swift A-Frame on buff and the Trophy Bonded Sledgehammer Solid on hippo, both worked well in my H&H rifles.

If I was going back for more buff I would use my .375 Ruger with the 270 gr FailSafe (I have a couple of hundred put away). If those were gone, I would go with the Barnes 270 gr TSX.

good hunting...jim

Good pick but don't forget the 285 grain grand slam.

I don't think you should judge a bullet on it's successes but rather by it's failures and failure rate. As I see it, one failure will tell you more about the bullet than a thousand successes and regular or repeated failures of a specific type will tell you even more.

FWIW, the bullet I like the least and have seen fail most often is the TBBC. Esp in .375.

I'm not suggesting they all fail but that from my experience, they fail more regularly than the others.

Saeed, the owner of the AR forum and with more than 150 buffalo to his credit, has shot numerous buffalo with his 375/404 and his own version of the TSX (called the Walterhog)while running away at the base of the tail with conplete penetration up to and including pass throughs. jorge

I have 300 A-frames and 300 Woodleigh solids shooting the same in my 375.

I'm almost done working up loads for mine.

So far it shoots 270 grain TSXs at 2700 fps about 2.25" higher than 300 grain round noses at 2530 fps, both at 100 yards.

That's perfect. It means I'm right on at 100 yards with solids and the 270 grainers are right on at 200 yards, 8" low at 300.

Assuming, of course, that 300 grain solids shoot the same as 300 grain round nose expanding bullets. I'm 99% sure they will and have some loaded up to confirm that.

I will take both 270 grain TSXs and 300 grain North Fork solids to Africa in May. Both are monolithics.

I am leaving on July 27th. I have loaded the 300gr Swift A frame to 2650fps with RL17 and I'm shooting the Barnes Banded solid 300 gr at 2600. The Solid hits abut 1" lower at 100yds and they are at the same impact at 50yds.

My PH Buzz Charlton prefers the SAF to any other bullet. I told him that I was going to load the 270 gr TSX and he said that they have been seeing pass thru's on Buff with that bullet. It kills the buff just fine but they have been seeing some wounded animals when they are grouped up in the Bush. He preferred that I use the SAF or the 300 gr TSX. I decided on the SAF. I've been happy with it at the range, just need to see how it performs in the field. Buzz has seen thousands of Buff die and he says that the SAF is the best in his mind.

Myles McCallum thinks that the NP, SAF, NorthFork, Woodleigh and TSX are all fine, just pick on you like and practice a lot.
Lee

Amazing. You mean there isn't one premium .375 bullet that kills buffalo and all the rest bounce off?

Ebby: I used the Aframe in my 414R and 375 on buffalo and a host of other animals with great success. They are a fantastic bullet and you can't go wrong. jorge

JB, you,re right, but it sure is fun to get everyone's opinion!

maddog

Agreed!

MD, I absolutely agree. There are too many bullets to list that will do the job. I was trying to show that you should probably check with the PH you will be hunting with to see what he prefers. We all know that are many ways to skin a cat but if your PH doesn't have confidence in what you are shooting, it will affect the hunt. JJHack likes the TSX, Shakari doesn't like TBBC, Buzz doesn't like TSX's, Myles McCallum doesn't really care he just wants you to practice.

It doesn't matter on here what people tell you when you head to Africa since you are required to use a PH. Discuss it with him is my recommendation.

Jorge, thanks for the vote of confidence. I'm headed to the range some more tomorrow. Hopefully, I'll have some pics to post in the next few weeks.
Lee

also bear in mind that the right bullet for the right animal is only half the story. You also need to consider and decide the right load.

Good examples of this are the Woodleigh bullets where it's very important to pay strict attention to the recommended terminal velocity printed on the box and the good old Winchester Silvertip. A lot of people hate those things but from my experience they work an absolute treat when handloaded to a moderate velocity but the factory loads make them too fast which then causes problems.

Have to agree on the Woodleigh bullets and the velocity recommendations based on one guy here in Sweden...

He shoots moose with a .358 Norma and Woodleigh bullets going about 350fps faster than intended.

I have seen some of his recovered bullets, and they are like US silver dollars -- huge diameters and expanded all the way to the base! Quite the testimony to Woodleigh's bonding, but not ideal performance in my opinion.

He is a believer in that mythical concept "hydraulic shock". Well, moose just do not seem impressed by shock to me -- they take about a minute to die (during which time they run into a swamp or some handy ice water if deep enough, but that is another story).

Good thing he was never able to get his hands on those A-Square bullets with the brittle jackets that were designed to fragment ("Lion Loads"?) or he would be launching those!

John

If you are using a premium bullet,I would think shot placement is more critical?

I like Woodleighs a lot, but have seen the flattening when they're pushed beyond their recommended muzzle velocity. In fact, I once saw a 360-grain Woodleigh .416 stopped by a fallow deer doe that at most weighed 100 pounds.

The rifle was a .416 wildcat that pushed the bullet to 2650 fps, and the shot was placed just behind the rear of of the ribcage as the doe quartered away. The bullet was recovered from the skin on the opposite shoulder (literally from the skin, as one petal was poking through). Weight retention was great, but the bullet was 2-1/2 times as wide as it was "long."

TSXs, everything else is at best, second best...jorge

On all sorts of game I have recovered only two tsx bullets, and never lost an animal to them. I have used Hornady interlocks before that with good success, but as Jorge says, they are a second best choice. Remington core locks have been used by me for years at moderate velocities with success, but once I switched to tsx, I have only used them for paper punching. When developing loads for my 375, I have started with the tsx and solid flat nose barnes right from the start. I may reload some cup and core for trigger time, but have not yet purchased any components.

I respect those opinions that differ from mine, but have formed my own from experience with many different cartridges, an am confident.

Randy

Jorge,

I'll have to disagree with you there my friend.... I'm not suggesting they're a bad bullet but that there are plenty of others out there that are equally good at least.

I also have to say that I'm beginning to distrust any bullet that forms petals simply because I reckon if/when a petal breaks off it must cause the bullet to become unstable.

That said, I'm just a layman and know bugger all about the technicalities/science of it, so I could well be wrong.

Take a look at North Forks:

http://www.northforkbullets.com/magento/

http://www.facebook.com/people/North-Fork-Bullets/100000732410648

Excellent bullet/ Very fine people!

That's a well stated idea, one which is worth considering, even when one is enjoying the honeymoon with their new "bestest" bullet. (Just wait until she cheats on you! )

No issues with disagreements, but I've just talked to too many people including Saeed's experieces (and my own) to think there is a better bullet out there than the TSX. As for Woodleighs, no thanks. Might work well in doubles at those velocities, but I like speed and if a TSx does lose it's petals then it just becomes a solid. I've used A Frames on buffalo and they were fantastic, but from what I have observed, the TSX penetrates better and expands well.

I have posted photos of the two recovered tsx bullets. The failure lost its petals, but retained 85% of original weight, penetreted 3 feet and the internal flight path curved only 3 inches when it slowed at the end of its path. The other was a perfect x pattern and travelled straight with 3.5 ft penetration and weighed 100% of original. I an not saying there are not bullet failures with them, but none of those failures have impacted negatively. There are many other good bullets out there, but my experience has bought me confidence, in fact it is more often I who fail the bullet that it fail me.(shot placement off by a few inches)

Randy

Bottom line: Saeed over at AR has taken over 150 buffalo with the TSX including a few Texas Heart Shots that went all the way through the paunch and destroyed the vitals. That about covers is for me.

What do ya do, when the ph says to many pas thrus in a herd? Assuming you wat to hunt with what the ph tells ya?

maddog

Don't use solids. You shoot a buffalo right, I mean in the shoulder and you won't get a pass through. Other than that, Saeed didn't have any problems. As far as PHs it is a good idea to listen to them naturally, but you show up with TSXs (or any bullet for that matter) and the PH really doesn't care. jorge

This business about overpenetrating in herds is of some concern. What about using 270 grain TSX bullets instead of any 300 grain expanding bullet for the first shot? The 270 gain TSX will probably hold nearly all its weight and penetrate farther than many "older" 300 grain soft points but not as far as a 300 grain TSX.

Many PHs, including my first and so far only buff hunt PH, recomment a soft point for the first shot and solids for follow on shots at buffalo. I am suggesting 270 grain TSXs and 300 grain North Fork solids. the 270 grain TSX seems good for plains game also.

The 270 TSX b/c of how fast most loads and people drive them was the problem according to my PH. I guess you could load them down a little and they would work. Not sure.
Lee

I've never hunted cape buff., but I have spoken with several PH's at length about preferred caliber and bullet selection. To a man, all stated they prefer a premium soft, with some solids on hand for follow-up "just in case".

As to which bullet.... all the bullets mentioned thus far on this thread were well represented. However, it is interesting to note, in all my discussions it was apparent that one particular bullet seemed to be preferred (and by a large margin) by the over whelming majority of PH's..... the A-frame.

I disagree. Load them as fast as you can and what gives you the best accuracy. A lot of PHs in my opinion (take it for what it's worth) grew up with conventional cup and core bullets and POS like Kynochs. To them they like heavy and slow. With today's modern premium bullets heavy and FAST is the key to success. Then again what do I know. jorge

I got a few 375cal TSX 270gr a couple weeks ago and finally tried them out today.

Dug these out the course sand berm. Most weighed between 257 - 265 grains. The lightest in the bunch was 235gr. All grouped well for 1.5" to .75".

First time I've used them in the 375/338. I'm impressed.

I would be more concerned with not enough speed when working with TSXs.



This guy punched the meaty parts of a moose's shoulders at 150-ish yards. It's a 235 TSX which was started at 2500 fps. I don't consider it to be "too much" in either expansion or penetration.

But even a measly 100 grainer from a 7mm-08 can double on light animals as this one did on caribou at 200+ yards.



There is certainly a case to be made for using a bullet that expands well enough to stay inside of an animal which is frequently hunted in herds. I never recovered a 140 XFB, the usual X I used when hunting caribou with the -08. I lost a 150 XFB when I quickly got 40% of my daily allowance of caribou when shooting the 30-06. I'm sure I could have trippled quite readily if the animals had lined up for me.

Jorge, I'm not disagreeing with you. I like the TSX and shoot them in lots of guns. I worked up some loads for the trip too. My PH just says that he has seen some pass thru's with the 270 gr version. He says most guys push them at 2750 fps or so and that they kill great but they sometimes punch thru and he doesn't want to run the risk. He said use the 300 gr at about 2500-2550fps if I wanted to use the TSX. He then said that he preferred the A-frame so I bought those and have been using them.

He doesn't have one problem with the TSX as far as killing Buffalo. They penetrate really well and you often don't need solids b/c they get so much penetration. I just didn't want to have to pass any shots b/c deep down he may thinking that I might injure another animal. I have killed plenty with tsx's just not Buffalo so I deferred to the "expert". Ha!
Lee

No problem Ebby, I just don't agree the 270 TSX will outpenetrate the 300 TSX. The A Frames are a great bullet, like I said that is what I've used on buffalo with great success. Cheers, jorge

It seems to me that trying to calibrate things so that a bullet won't exit on a sideways shot is a bit difficult. It might exit on a lung shot but not exit if one or both shoulders are hit. If it doesn't exit on the lung shot, it might not penetrate enough on the shoulder shot. Buffalo don't stand exactly sideways either, and come in different sizes. You might be 20 yards away or 100 yards away. Too many variables.

Besides, it's altogether fine to study Kevin Robertson's book of photos to see where the anatomy is, but the several buffalo I have ever considered shooting, including the one I did, all seemed to be big black buffalo shaped things standing in the shade, and I could not make out things like the point of the shoulder.

Actually, it isn't too diffcult to find a bullet that will penetrate a buffalo's chest from any reasonable angle and yet usually stay inside even on broadside shots.

One of the most common misconceptions in hunting is that a bullet that won't exit on a broadside shot behind the shoulder won't penetrate enough on an angling shot. But unless they disintegrate, almost all big game bullets are stopped by the hide on the far side, because it is elastic and tough. The same bullet isn't going to simpy stop in the middle of soft lung tissue somewhere in the middle of the animal.

As an example, I have seen quite a few elk and some moose taken with the 150-grain .270 Nosler Partition. It has usually stopped under the hide on the far side, even on rib shots, but I have also seen it penertate from the rear of a quartering away bull moose's ribs to the meat of the opposite shoulder--where it also ended up under the hide.

Many lead-cored bullets open widely enough and "rounded" enough to stop under the hide on the far side of a buffalo, especially if they open farily widely. Yet they will still penetrate on a frontal or angling shot.

Petal-type bullets, like the X, often pop through the hide, probably because the front end if less rounded. The petals may also do some cutting. At any rate, they seem to tear through the hide more than lead-cored bullets with more rounded from ends, such as the Swift A-Frame, Woodleigh or Nosler Partition. I once shot a buffalo with a 300-grain Fail Safe from a .375 H&H and the exit hole was a couple inches across--and one of the torn-off petals was found on the edge of the hole.

IMHO, I think it has less to do with the petals on the TSX and more to do with the blunt, rounded face of a lead-core bullet. When it reaches the hide on the far side, it often doesn't have the energy to drive through given its shape. If I had to pick a bullet for Buffalo that would do the trick but likely stop under the hide on the far side, I'd go with either a 260 or 300 grain Partition -- the latter loaded down somewhat.

Having said that, and given the phenomenal results I've had with the 270 TSX on my one-and-only Namibia hunt, you'd have to specifically tell me that I couldn't hunt with that bullet!

I have settled on a couple of bullets for the .375 H&H and that would apply to the 375 Ruger also..

My favorite soft for DG is by far is the wonderful 350 gr. Woodleigh. and its a great bullet for anything that doesn't require a solid..

If, however, I was restricted to one bullet for all of Africa it would be the GS Customs "Cup Point"..Diker to Hippo, Buffalo, Lion it would suit me just fine. If elephant were on the menu then I'd probably opt for the GS Customs flat point solid, but I believe the cup points would get the job done..I just don't like being limited in bullet choice..

For the USA, about any good 300 gr. soft suits me. The Nosler rates high as do the lighter GS Customs HV HPs, and the 350 gr. Woodleigh still fits in well for elk in the thick stuff.

I was recently at gunsite and talked to Il Ling New, one of the instructors there. She had taken a 375 H&H to Australia and used the then new 350 grain Barnes TSX 375 bullets. Several Water Buffalo were shot with this bullet at various distances and they really like the results. She showed us several recovered bullets and they looked picture book perfect.

I would have worried that the slower moving 350 grain bullet may not open as well, but for her it worked great. I think it would be a bullet I would try out.

I "go the other way" when it comes to bullets. The 270gr TSX@2750 plus will penetrate with the best of them and it's flat enough to take a kudu at 350 plus. jorge

jorgeI,
In the 375 with Swift A-Frames, did you prefer the 270 or 300 grain bullets for buffalo?

I think this is exactly correct. In my favorite, but very long, series of articles on terminal performance, the author noted: "Typically, once a bullet has entered the thoracic cavity, it will at least cross the entire cavity, even if it is captured under the hide on the other side of the body. Consequently, the maximum thoracic depth implies a minimum mean wound diameter of roughly 7.5 mm to be effective. And again, these figures are drawn from data in which wounds did not rapidly coagulate, so the minimum for bullets will be larger in practice.� http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/mechanics.htmls

So, if a rifle bullet makes it into the chest cavity, it generally will keep moving until it gets to the hide on the far side (or bone, but there�s none in the chest cavity). Thus, it seems like the concerns about the number of inches of penetration is not a linear problem�it can take a lot for a bullet to penetrate into the chest cavity of a particular animal, but if it does, it sails through the soft internal organs until it hits the hide/bone on the other side.

On Cape buffalo I sure want a bullet that will give me an exit hole most of the time on a broadside shot. You get a lot more blood on the ground that way and blood on the ground can be a life saver IMO...mostly cause you know about where he is..I don't like those sneeky surprises. I am not of the school that a bullet must expend all its stuff inside, I like them blow a big hole coming out thus my choice of the GS Customs cup point and the big 350 gr. Woodleigh PP. for herd hunting I swap the PP for the less penetrative round nose 350 gr. Woodleigh and it does stop on the off side hide, but that's better than having two buff mad at you at the same time. Just my opine.

But in the end and cutting through the usual stuff, to kill a buffalo or any animal is kinda like drinking a beer, you punch a big hole in them with about any good bullet and let the juice out and you have a dead soldier..I have seen only a few failure with the .375 and that happens with lighter bullets and only on frontal shots that hit solid but slip around the rib cage go under the shoulder on top of the rib cage and do little more than tick the bulls off..It happens pretty often btw..I only have knowledge of this happening with the .375 and 9.3s and with the lighter mid weight bullets in those two calibers..Both are great DG rounds but I would pass on frontal shots, or go for the head shot.

With the A Frames I had good penetration with the 300. Never used the 270. In the TSX as I stated I prefer the 270 as fast as I can get it.

I will reiterate what I said, and what jorge said earlier...I liked 300 gr. A-Frames..

the buffalo didnt...but I did...

Ingwe

Anyone have experience with the 250 TSX?

In the 9.3x62mm, yes. Killed the bear in my avatar quite handily. Penetration is excellent.

In fact, on several occasions I've shot two feral hogs with the same bullet, and on one occasion three. One day I'm hoping four piggies will line up just right...

I like A-frames and TBBC. Both worked well on my safari. My partner using A-frames and I was using the TBBC.

Hi,

Have any of you used the Federal TBBC .375 H&H 300 grs High Energy ammunition in hot weather? If you do, what`s your experience?

Thank your very much

PH

HI there,

as stated in another thread, I'm just back home from a Nambinian hunting trip(and now suffering one of the most awful african disease: PSD for Post Safari Depression. I try to cure it eating biltong but I'm afraid it won't be enough ). I used the 270 grains TSX (sako factory loads, known as "powerhead" loads). Hunting mostly in the bushy and stalking as much as possible, ranges varied from 70 to 160 meters. From 5 of 7 bagged games I recovered 6 bullets.

I was hunting antelopes only. The bullets worked pretty good every time I did my job but I have noticed only 2 of 6 remained in one piece:





From left to tight: Gemsbok (4 petals missing, remains: 186/270 grains), Gemsbok bis (3 petals missing, remains: 211.5/270 grains), Kudu (2 petals missing, remains: 229/270 grains), Blue Wildebeest (2 petals missing, remains: 249.7/270 grains), Burchell's Zebra (worked as advertised, remains: 270 / 270 grains), red Hartebeest (idem).

Bullet went through

I lost one hartebeest but I believe it was my mistake, not the bullet.

Strongest game reaction: the zebra, broad side heart shot @ 150 meters, it still ran 300 meters befor it felt down, no blood on the track on the 150 first meters and the expansion was of the "advertised" kind.

My observations on that little experiment base:

1. Worked good
2. strong game, no pass trhough, especially with 3/4 facing shots (which are the quickest killing ones through)
3. Hard hits: bullets broken apart in their front section.

Hope this can help in bullet selection.

Maddog,if I may offer you some advise.Never shoot a buff with a soft. Their hide are simply too thick, which causes the bullet to mushroom before reaching the vitals. I have heard of clients ignoring the PH's instructions after being told to load solids, and then ended up dealing with the consequences...and they were not good. All dangerous game ....solids.
Hope that helps. If you need any questions , please feel free to ask.

I'm sorry but that is the most wrongheaded advice I've ever heard for shooting a buffalo, it's so ludicrous it has to be a joke.

That is quite funny!



For buff I have used A Frames and Hornady solids because they shoot to same POA in my gun and I use the solids mainly for the little "tough" antelope than buf. I am not impressed with a 375 Solid on buf after how I have seen softs work unless you are going for a brain shot.

I have fell in love with the 270 TSX as an all around 375 bullet. This bullet gives me the excuse to use this caliber more often from a rifle looney standpoint. Used it on springbuck up to 450 yards and lion up close and elk because I wanted.
I may not use the 375 on buf again but the clever 375 has a way of finding its way in your hands when after something else a big black shape appears and suddenly buffalo is on the menu.

blaser: that 270 TSX is the greatest thing since sliced bread and big boobs. I spent a long time speaking with Randy Brooks on the subject and when he tested this bullet and the 300gr in Africa, the 270 seemed to give better results on buffalo, same for the 350 in the 416.

I'm sorry, but solids only for buff is an antiquated philosophy. I went through a period when I used them, and loaded them for others. Watching the results we got with solids vs expanding bullets, there was no question that solids had more followups and no DRT. With the advent of premium controlled expansion and x/TSX bullets, the argument for solids only just doesn't hold water.

I can't believe a "PH" actually said softs can't penetrate I buffalo's hide! amazing.

I used a 270TSX on a 600lb Mountain Caribou in the Yukon last week. Shot was at 80yds and a bit high in the ribs. Shown is the exit side of the victim.

That is a DANG nice Caribou!!!!!!!

I still use and like solids..I have never had a complaint with solids, I don't consider them antiquated..I particularly like the GS Customs flat nose solids and I love the North Fork cup points which are a solid of sorts that expand..I would perfectly happy to hunt everything on this planet with north fork cup points and my 375 H&H or 416 Rem. It is the only "one do everything" bullet that I know of.

I normally use a soft for the first shot followed up with solids. Buffalo are very seldom DRT, that is a falicy or the lucky results of one that has not shot a lot of buffalo, it just does not happen often..One shot broadside with a soft, follow up shots in the posterior with solids is a tried and true practice.

I would not hunt elephant or Hippo with softs at all..

The old timers knew what they were talking about, and many still use solids..there is a place for them.

I have seen a few failure with monolithics, bonded core bullets on buffalo, so I am not soley convienced that today shooters are as knowledgable as those old guys were.

Ray; if you read what I and others posted we agree softs should not be used on hippo, elephant on rhino. "old timers" used solids only because they had no confidence in soft points up until a few years ago. Using solids only on buffalo I find totally silly, and especially what that "PH" said above that softs will not penetrate a buff's thick skin. That is absurd. Also our friend Saeed agrees with not using solids as well on buffalo and he's shot plenty of buffalo with this TSX-like Walterhog bullet. The practice of a solid up the ass can be easily done with a TSX as Saeed has done on many ocassion. Nobody said they were antiquated, solids have a place when hunting elephant, rhino or hippo on dry land and those "old guys" used solids because that was the only thing BACK THEN that could be counted on to penetrate.

JorgeI, You must come here often. Your knowledge on African game is immense and I bet you dont even need a PH when on your Safari. Why would you need one, you were practically born here.
Would you like me to forward you the clients details , that needed life support before returning from his safari,after almost being killed by the buff he shot in the right place with a soft.
Maybe you and Saeed can visit him.
Please, your sarcastic replies are not appreciated. And as a "PH" i'm telling you that I know what i'm talking about.

Not as often as I like unfortunately, and I don't hunt RSA, but there are softs and there are softs and I don't have to live in Africa or be a PH to say that your original statement about softs not penetrating a buffalo's hide are ridiculous unless of course you are using some kind of varmint bullet. Any of the soft points mentioned here will easily penetrate a buffalo's hide and kill him. I'm no PH and my grand total of having shot two buffalo is minuscule, but in Zimbawe where PHs actually have to pass a rigorous series of exams in order to be licensed they recommend softs for buffalo. So yo have one instance of ONE client with an unkown soft in an unkown caliber that failed to kill one buffalo(and I don't doubt it happened I hope you realize I'm not questioning your veracity) and you recommend only solids? You are the first PH I've ever say that in the past twenty years anyway. I have in my hand a copy of Craig Boddington's Book Safari Rifles. In it there is a survey on the back of over 100 PHs questioned on caliber, rifle, ammo, etc., and not one recommends solids exclusively for buffalo. I'm sorry but your advice is off the mark in this regard. jorge

Ok JorgeI,
I'll back my facts up against your friends friend that has a friend that once hunted in Africa.
First of all , you cannot become a PH without writing the Exams to qualify. So, I have passed mine. Years ago , as a matter of fact.
Secondly , I never said exclusively shoot buff with solids. They have their place, but not often.
FACT: Elephant-(that YOU want to shoot with a soft) Side on or Front on brain shot. OK you have I dont know how many inches of solid bone to shoot through to get to the brain. I guess I understand why YOU would want to use a soft.
FACT: Hippo: 95% of the time , it will be in the water. Only thing sticking out above the water. You guessed. Front on head shot. Once again, heavy bone.
FACT: Rhino- Anchient Tank that found itself some legs. Has about a 10 inch diameter shoulder bone you need to break. (Shoot it with a soft-hahahaha....idiotic!)
Buffalo- Front on head shot or through the chest. You have about a Square inch target on both, where you need to force that bullet right through there. Chest is protected with bone that looks like two bowling balls on either side. Brain is protected by huge bosses. If you're a little off target, with a soft, you're in the doodie. (You can say hi to the guy on life support)
Fact- Lion- Soft will be fine.

So please, Jorge, dont insult my intelligence. YOU, my friend , are a civillian. I am an outfitter. If I loose a client because his soft was half an inch off and could not break the heavy bone on its way to the target. Thats the end of me. So before you post another of your theories get your facts right and look at where I am coming from.

Craig Boddington has over one hundred safaris to his credit and Saeed has taken over 100 buffalo. Now as to what I said regarding softs & solids:


More:



And what *YOU* said:


Your words and mine for comparison. Since dangerous game also includes lion and leopard and by your own words "All dangerous game...solids".

And if you bother to READ what I said and corrected, solids are the correct tool for elephant, rhino and hippo on dry land. On the water hippos, like crocs only have one small spot to shoot (and BTW NOT heavy bone THERE) and any soft (or soild) will work just fine. Finally, I am well aware of what it takes to become a PH in RSA and what it takes to become one in Zimbabwe and Tanzania. Not insulting your intelligence Ace, but what *YOU* wrote regarding solids and dangerous game is nonsense. One more thing, the two buffs I've shot at, both with Swift A Frames (416 and 375), BOTH hit the shoulder broke bones and penetrated the heart and lungs, CLEAN THROUGH. And you maybe need to refresh your buffalo anatomy, a 1" square target for a chest shot? And you call me idiotic?...jorge

Yes Yogi bear. 1 square inch is the size of the hole in between the shoulder bones looking from the front.(Anatomically speaking) Thats about what you have to get through to the vitals without touching anything on the way through. But you being the MR Know-it-all should know that. I'm done arguing with you and kindly ask all these dear forum users to send all their questions relating to Africa, and heck anything they want to know to you. Since you know it all. I have taken, guided and shot more african animals than that you have ever seen pictures of in books. I'm done with your BS. Heck, what do I know about Africa, I just live here...

I've only been on one safari to RSA, and that was 15 years ago.

Both PHs personally inspected the ammo of clients on DG hunts to insure NO softies were even around on the DG days. Solids only!!

Has something changed that now allows softie shooters to survive the split second charge of a mis-hit Buff?

Wayne

Hi Wayne,
Thanks for your post. Nothing has changed. You must understand that it is by no means law, just common sense, if you start looking at Ballistic Coefficient and momentum on your bullet performance.
Someone summed up a buff beautifully the other day by saying:
"They look at you as if you owe them money"

and that my friend says it all....

I can't believe what I am reading here. A guy that has killed 2 Buff's telling a guy that does it for a living that he is doing it wrong, basically. Unreal.

Jorge, I'm sure someone can instruct you on how to fly.

Who boys....take it easy!

Her is what I intend to do, unless told different by my ph. Solids all the way on the ele and hippo[dryland]. On the cow cape buff, in a herd situation, softs for the 1st shot, solids thereafter.

maddog

I doubt it, but wrong is wrong and if you took the time to read what was posted initially or read the thread in it's entirety you might find it enlightening, not to mention what PHs who hunt DG for a living say, and if you believe that a buffalo's hide will prevent a decent soft from penetrating, well by all means use all the solids you want. This is a forum with opinions and you are free to draw your own conclusions. One question you might also ask (or see for yourself) is how much DG hunting goes on in certain areas of Africa. Living there doesn't make one an expert.

BTW, told the outfitter what I was bringing for ammo. Hornady 300 gr. DGX and DGS. He said perfect. He even said he buy all our extra ammo. He stated that he really likes the new Hornadys. I got that from 3 othe Zim phs, while researching the hunt, for my son and I. Soo, we are each taking 3 boxes of ammo. 1box of softs and 2 boxes of solids. My son is going to use factory ammo, and I'm using handloads.


maddog

I have nothing but the greatest respect for anyone with a PH ticket in Africa. But I can't believe that we really have much of an argument on the table. For buffalo, I would bet Jorge's next house payment that fully 80% of DG PH's would recomend a quality expanding point for first round on a buff and solids thereafter.

jorge, I appreciate everything you post, but this doesn'nt make you an expert, either. Not dissin' on you, but back up and take a breath...ole buddy

maddog

Red Leg I think if you really research it, the conventional wisdom for buffalo is even more to strictly softs. When I hunted with John Sharp, I spent lots of time on the range with my 416 working up loads just as you say, a soft followed by solids. When it came to crunch time, my first shot (400gr A-Frame) broke the shoulder and later revealed it also shot clean through the heart and was on the off side) anyhow the buffalo took off on three legs and went into some mushes. I immediately topped off the mag and when John saw I was putting in a solid, he said to stick with softs. Every year when I go to the DSC convention I am fortunate enough to get invited to a few affairs that involve PHs and naturally these and other subjects come up and I can tell you without reservation quite a few recommend strictly softs for clients anyway and for them aince they dont't know what's around the next corner, and those that carry doubles, have one barrel loaded with each. jorge

Md: I am the first to say I am FAR from being an expert and my post was not directed at you, but anybody from the Pope on down that says a soft won't penetrate a buffalo's hide or that a buffalo's chest kill zone is 1" square is plain wrong.

I used a 300 gr TSX on a quartering facing shot two months ago and didn't need to worry whether I had sledgehammers or not in the mag. He was at a very odd, steep upward angle and the bullet clipped the near shoulder transited the heart and lodged in the spine behind the lungs. That bullet traveled through about three feet of very old, very big bull and the results could not have been more decisive.

Many PHs (as covered in African Hunter magazine) suggest clients come with TSXs or Barnes solids.

Those TSX are great. I only recently changed exclusively to them, due to difficulties in obtaining them in South Africa. But found a supplier.
I shoot the 130gr in the .308 Win at about 3200 fps.(Same rifle my clients use if they choose not to bring their own.)
and the .375 I use the 235gr also at about 3000fps. Their penetration is unmatched.
Man I get goosebumps just thinking about them....

interesting...

you hear so much about the 270 grain .375 TSX that i wondered if there was something wrong with the 235 grain TSX.

There was a time when the solids ruled the roost for almost all hunting in Africa. That had a lot to do with the crumpling reputation of the cup and core softs which were the only game in town.

Those days have long since past us by. However there are still countless people involved in this business that cannot get beyond what was the history of the manufacturing designs of the old soft point bullets. I sometimes wonder what it took to get some of these folks to switch from Black powder muzzle loaders to a center fire rifle?

Today the bonded bullets are gaining the respect of most experienced PH's and outfitters, I strongly suggest them or the TSX to all my hunters. The future is the monolithic bullets that have no lead. They are very much like a semi mushrooming solid.

The TSX has provided the greatest consistency and deepest penetration of any bullet ever used on the 1000's of animals we have taken through our camps. I cannot see any reason to use anything else on all but the biggest thick skinned game. There is simply no reason for the soft first, then solid theory of old. Just stack the magazine with TSX bullets and you have both on every shot.

As far as the weight when speaking for the 375, With about well over 50 buffalo taken with them now in the last several years, the 270's have been the better choice. The 300's work great, but the additional 300fps for the 270's trumps the 30 grains advantage of the 300's. The penetration is usually better with the 270's, and they open more complete. There is something to be said for that extra 300fps with that 270gr chunk of solid copper.

I remember presenting this at a public seminar. There happened to be a fella from Barnes company in the audience. He was introduced to me after the presentation and said that The Barnes company had also come to the same conclusion now. The 270gr was actually a better over all performer in the 375HH then the 300gr is on Buffalo and Eland size game.

I've never shot a more accurate bullet in my 375 then the 270 TSX either. At 2830fps this bullet will penetrate as well as a solid, but open up to a larger diameter and continue to push through anything in it's path.

And the bigger 375s like 375 Wby and 375 RUM will give those velocities with the 300s and a 378 would do it with 350 Barnes

Yeah toad,
Nothing wrong with the 270gr TSX.I will use them, but for another application. The reason why I have gone with the 235gr is quite simple. In the case that a client uses my rifle in .308, and he has no problem with me carrying a backup rifle, it will always mean that , if I have to step in I usually have a quite far and running shot. Thus , with a bit more speed and fps I dont quite have to calculate too much lead in trying to get a shot in. I always want my client to down his own animal, so I will leave it till the last. Then the lighter bullet gets there a little quicker. So the reason why the lighter bullets , is solely on a backup perspective in preventing a lossed animal. Hope that makes sense...

...and regarding what JJHack said, I could not agree more. To me there is no way you can compare softs with TSX. The TSX are simply in a league of their own. Also, dont understand the logic of putting a soft in followed by the solids. Are the solids there to fix what the soft could not achieve first up...why not then just go with the solids in the firts place. But sure...TSX over all!

It is SO nice to see some folks who have actually "been there, done that" speaking up for Barnes. The experts (LOL) we all too often hear from have never used them but know all about them.

The new 130 TTSX is a deadly killer in deer sized game, we use it in the ancient, obsolete 300 Savage (just ask the experts) in 99s starting it out at 2800 with 4198. Shoots sub MOA and every Deer and Antelope taken thus far has been a one shot kill with little or no tracking.

Barnes rules: 400 Whelen 350gr "old X" (we have a hoard), 250 yard one shot kill. (the 350 and 400 old X are also great in the 400 H&H)

That which is perfect needs no defending. Barnes monos are great under the circumstances in which they work best. That's not really different than other bullets. But as has been pointed out previously on here, there really are no bad bullets these days. African game and typical distances seem to show monos in their best light.

Jorge1,
I don't disagree with your posts at all, but I believe their are options to be considered and they work..All the old guys are not gone and I know many PHs today that prefer a client to use solids even today...I think if you hunt with a PH, you should abide by his suggestions, but thats just me, nobody has to follow that advise, its your hunt and your footing the bill.

I Belive the lighter monolithics are great buffalo bullets like the .270 gr. TSX for instance, and prefer it to the 300 or 350 in a monolithic as I believe velocity is what makes a monolithics work..

I also am satisfied that Swifts are excellent, GS Custom HPs, Nosler partitions work, most of todays bullets kill buffalo well on broadside shots, and I don't place much faith in how a bullet kills one or two buffalo, I like to see their long haul record.

For my part, I want a flat nose solid or a cup point, IF I am dealing with a wounded bull, if I am shooting a bull length wise from either end, otherwise I am perfectly content with any of todays premium bullets for a broadside shot and yes I do have my favorites.

My favorites, for what its worth, are the 350 gr. 375 Woodleighs, the 450 gr. 416 Woodlleighs, the GS Customs bullets and I still like the good old 400 gr. Nosler Partition in the .416. I respect others choice of bullets most of the time, and that is their business not mine to start with.

Can't disagree with anything you say Ray, your last post I'm in complete agreement with.

Ray, where do you get ahold of your GS Custom bullets. They are as close to Barnes TSX that you will get. Their factory is about 3 miles from where I stay. I since stopped using them , because there is now a 12 week waiting time on an order, and as you know with the amount of rounds I shoot , I simply cannot wait for them that long. Is it not sad that it is easier to get a hold of Barnes,which is foreign, than bullets that are made 3 miles down the road. But GS Custom are really good. I have not had one failure on them ever. I use to use their HV monolithics bullets, and still have a couple that I will shoot out.

So you are not putting the TSX and their ilk in the softpoint category? If not, then the whole argument is off base. I lump any expanding bullet into the softpoint category. Some are decidedly tougher than others. I suspect that most handloaders in the US will also make that distinction. I have personally taken buffalo with Woodleigh solids, Woodleigh Softpoints. Hawk Softpoints, Barnes monolithic solids, Barnes TSX, and RWS H-Mantles. Reaction to the aforementioned softpoints on buff I have shot, and those shot in my hunting parties lead me to the conclusion that they were more effective than solids. Now, if I need to follow up a wounded buff, then I want all solids. If I were a PH backing up my client, then I would want solids. However, based on my observations, and those of several PH's who specialize in DG in multiple countries, I want the first shot with a premium expanding bullet.

No , I dont put TSX and softs in the same category. A soft to me is something that has been bonded. With a lead core. My Engineering Degree tells me that something that has been bonded can fail. I have had a couple of failures in the past with big brand soft bullets on game, so have turned away from them completely. I exclusively use TSX now in all my calibres.
I guess it goes about preferences, since there are many different experiences and points of view about this topic.

My question to you is why you back up with solids? To do the job the soft could not do in the first place?

Its a retorical question, so I really dont want an answer from you. Its all about personel preference at the end of the day. As long as everyone is safe once the buff is on the truck...