Im a newbie, have a 30.06 with 22" barrel and 1:10 twist rate. Wanna try Berger 168gr vld hunting bullets and suggestions or data will be helpfull.
Tx

I'm not sure how much of a response you'll get here in the African hunting forum, but here's a link to a great article on loading the .30-06 for hunting:

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/newsletters/May_2009.html

Like Barsness recommends, I've been using H4350 in my .30-06 when shooting 165-168 grain bullets. It works very well for both accuracy and velocity.

Regards, Guy

I no longer use unbonded cup and core bullets for big game. Too much at stake, especially in Africa. And with so many GOOD hunting bullets out there, WHY? One does not need the extra BC or perhaps accuracy potential of the Berger bullets in Afircan hunting scenarios, but he DOES need deep penetration and to make TWO holes in everything he shoots at. Load the Barnes 168TTSX and don't look back, even if it does not shoot quite as accurately as other bullets, though usually it does.

Safariman,

Agree 100%

Bergers perform excellent! I used 155gr VLD's for my Plains game.

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/5344992/1

I suspect our new member Nellie is just asking for load data, not about using the VLD on African game, since he's posted in several other Campfire forums asking the same question.

But it is, once again, interesting to hear various opinions on using Berger VLD's from hunters who have and haven't hunted with them.

John,

Not very hard to figure out who has used the VLDs and who has not in this thread.

Yeah, on this thread it isn't hard.

On some other threads, someone may start to sound like they've used VLD's--but then they'll start comparing their performance to a Ballistic Tip. Now, Ballistic Tips are good bullets, but they don't expand exactly like a VLD!

+10 to safariman.

Once you've seen a match or pseudo match bullet blow to pieces when it hits a big bone in a big animal, and realize the animal would have been lost (or worse if agressive) and was only recovered because the guide put a quick fu shot in with a hunting bullet, you reach the conclusion that bullet construction and performance counts a lot more than BC or inches of drop @ 1000 yards (where nobody has any business shooting at live animals anyway).

Find me a PH who suggests his clients bring match/pseudo match bullets to take down serious big game.
The story of Major (?) Grey and the Lion tells what happens when thin jackets. lead cores and high velocity come together against a medium size animal that fights back.

"The case of a refined English gent named Grey will provide an excellent example. Grey and two companions were hunting driven lion from horse back in the African Savannas, early in the last century. Grey was armed with a .280 Ross rifle. The agreement was that if the beaters put up a lion, the riders were to merge together before an attempt was made to take it. The beaters did put up two lions, and Grey's companions were a considerable distance away.

Grey foolishly decided to take the male lion himself with his .280. He rode close and fired a shot into it, wounding but not disabling the beast. Understandably, the lion took exception to this unprovoked assault and charged, knocking Grey to the ground and biting and clawing him to teach him some manners, before bounding off into the long grass.
Although terribly mutilated, Grey did not die straight away. He managed to communicate to his companions that his fate was entirely due to his own stupid actions and not the fault of the beaters. He died several days later in a hospital. The wounded lion was tracked and dispatched by Grey's companions."

Section any Berger, SMK, AMax and a high spitzer soft point velocity bullet of the 1930s. May look different on the outside but construction is the same.

Even the puff piece written on hunting in NZ with Bergers admitted there was ONE hole, that the elastic skin closed right up. In other words no tracking possible.

There is just no rational reason NOT to use a proven hunting bullet when hunting. Had Grey used a 140 gr TSX in his 280 (about like a 7mm remmeg) he probably would have died in bed as an old man, not of Septicemia in great discomfort in a colonial hospital.

Sound advice.

VLDs have proven to me to be an awesome hunting bullet.

Of course I have the advantage of actually have used the VLD.

You have anecdotal evidence, from a 2nd hand story over 50 years in the past, with a completely different and unknown bullet, and in which the hapless hunter never blamed the bullet but instead �his own stupid actions�.

Well done.

The 168gr .308 Berger is the only Berger I have tinkered with so far, but I have been very impressed. I am loading them in my .300 Wby. with data provided by Berger using Re-22. If you email Berger they will provide you with some excellent load data.
So far I have dumped a few 'yotes with this setup, but I am hoping to tip over some antelope later this year. Likley some feral hogs in the next couple of months too.

OK, I"ll be the dumbazz and ask a dumbazz question......What are the characteristics of the VLD bullet as far as performance on deer sized game. Not talking about BC's, velocities, etc......how do they act on impact? I've obviously never used them.

JB brought up the ballistic tip. What advantage/disadvantage to they have over the btips?

In my experience, which is only three mule deer, the VLD typically penetrates with a very small entrance wound. The bullet doesn't start to expand initially, instead it penetrates - that alone makes it quite different from most other bullets.

Once it's in a few inches, into the chest cavity, then it expands violently. Heart, lungs, big blood vessels shredded.

In the case of each of my mule deer, it was an instant drop. Typically there's no exit with the small 115 gr .257" VLD, I've recovered the bullet just under the off-side hide.

I thought it was pretty much perfect deer bullet performance. Squeeze the trigger. Deer drops dead. Very little damage to meat.

FWIW, Guy

Thanks for the feedback. What distances were the deer shot?

175, 230 and 400 yards with my .25-06

Bullet performance exactly as described in the puff piece on Bergers in NZ, SMKs or AMax. Reminds me of the usual performance of a good varmint bullet.
Of course woodchucks dont have big heavy shoulder bones, massive pelvis or thick hard skulls.
Any of the Mulies Guy shot could have been killed just as dead by a real premium hunting bullet and if, just if the wind had shifted, the deer moved, Guy flinched a bit and the hit not been in the soft tissue area, there would have been two holes and a blood trail, not a lost animal. I am still witing for the first report of some "hunter" stopping a Buff, Brown Bear or even a Lion charge with a Berger ot any other match bullet. I love Bergers for their intended use, and in fact am having a 2000 yard gong ringer in 338 RUM being bult around the new Berger 300 gr 338.
But hunting is not target shooting and my 25-06 shooting an 80 gr TTSX at 3900 fps (28" bbl) would have killed any of those deer just as dead with my favorite shot through both shoulders. Drops em' on the spot with maybe 4 pounds of meat lost and no worries about eating lead with my dinner.
Had they been 1/4ing away, I still would have killed them where a match bullet would never make it through the big, full paunch.
IMHO the four worse things to "go afield" in the last decade are "Tactical" anything, match bullets for hunting, "Long Range" hunting and silly huge variable scopes.
As for Grey's bullets, for many years I owned a Ross Model 10 that had been a Scottish Red Stag stalking rifle. Also had a lot of factory Kynoch ammo for it loaded with the same 140 gr SP Grey used. After first running across his mishap, I sectioned a bullet. It was a virtual twin to current match bullet constuction, thin jacket, no bonding, in fact a large varmint bullet. Actually shot a few chucks with it at about 50 yards (no scope). It just blew em to pieces.
But I DNS as I only shot my first deer in 1958.

interthem,
Do you have pictures of any of the deer that you killed with the 80 gr TTSX?

Well, it's better than most of his posts......

I see Larry is yakkin again

You had some varmint bullets that penetrated several inches before expanding?

Oh, yeah, and a factory Ruger No. 1 with a 30" barrel....

A couple of weeks ago my deer camp buddy was crushing exit side shoulders and blowing chunks of spine out of hogs with a 308 launching 168 VLDs. The big one was 295 pounds.

I guess that's a puff piece too.

That's called "puff goes the piggie"!

Yeah Larry ..........Bergers don't work......650 yds,, took rib out going in and out. Elk went 15 yds....lowly 6mm 105 gr VLD

Man, you guys need to quit breaking off Larry's root in his ass, then again maybe he swings that way. Good thread, nothing beats slapping around a troll with facts

Thanks for the info guys. Was wondering if anybody has used vld's on African game! Let me know..

A coworker used them in Africa. He used his 270 Win with Berger VLD's on some of the plains game. He was satisfied as was the PH he hunted with. I know he shot an oryx and some type of antelope with it.

Nellie,

You did click on the 24hour link on slg88's post? His was the 5th post on this thread. It has several photos of dead African animals taken with the 155 VLD from his .308 Winchester.

African game die same as American game. Same bullets work for both

Spot on...

John, Thanks for the reference of the vld hunt. Good to know. My only concern is that the animals I hunt compare to the ones in the USA, is that the vitals are a lot further forward and behind a lot of bone. just worried about heating the bone.
But shot placement is everything..
Will be testing the vld on Wednesday and hopefully I can get them to work.
Tx for the advice guys

Actually, the vitals of African animals aren't a "lot" further forward. You can shoot them in the meaty part of the shoulder, and some even slightly behind the shoulder, and do quite well.

Some African PH's are so obsessed with shoulder-shooting that they can't even see this. I once shot a big gemsbok (one of the really tough ones) right in the crease behind the shoulder, and he went maybe 15-20 yards and fell over, before I could even shoot again.

An hour or so later, my hunting partner had to use my rifle to shoot another gemsbok, because the scope on his rifle had gone bad. He shot the bull right through both shoulders, and it staggered around for a while and fell over, if anything going somewhat further than mine had. "See!" the PH said. "If you'd shot yours through the shoulders it wouldn't have gone as far!" I didn't say anything, wondering what the hell he'd been watching.

The lungs of some animals also extend further back than on others. Kudu, for instance, can be shot a few inches behind the shoulder and will still go down quickly, one of the reasons they're considered "softer" than some other animals.

Get hold of a copy of Kevin Robertson's book THE PERFECT SHOT and study it. It's well worth the money.

John tx for the advice. Will def get the book. Tx

.............like I did with my 300 WSM, you can go onto the Berger site and contact them. They will e/mail you all the VLD loading data they have on the 30-06.

I started using 168 VLDs on my hog hunts about 2 1/2 years ago. Now using some 175s as well. The near immediate and immediate bang flops, not to mention the vitals devastation, is very good to see.

The 190 used on one elk so far was textbook.

When I am asked what bullet to use for big game my default answer is North Fork or TSX.

Before all of the Berger experts flame me and call me a troll here is a little background on my experience. I have made four dangerous game hunts in three African countries having the pleasure of killing eight cape buffalo (including a 49" monster in Moz.), elephant, leopard, and more plains game than I care to send to my taxidermist. I have never hunted elk or moose, but have killed a couple of whitetail and even a black bear in Alaska.

With that being said I have never hunted big game with Bergers. I have also never shot a 1000 yard (or even a 200 yard) rifle match with North Forks. I have shot one Axis deer with a 168 grain SMK at about 100 yards with an M1A and a whitetail doe with a 200 grain SMK out of a 30-338 Winchester at 327 yards lasered. Both were DRT. I would expect similar results from Berger.

For big game I look for a bullet that will penetrate deeply, expand, and retain as close to 100% of its weight under any circumstance. Personally I do not want a bullet that explodes after penetrating a couple of inches as the Bergers have been described in this thread.

About two years ago I tested quite a few bullets in a consistent test media in a controlled enviroment to see what penetrated straight, deep, and held together. A lot of the work revolved around solids. I wanted to try some Bergers but nver got around to it. I did test some SMKs and they completely disintegrated. Again I would expect the same results from Berger as the SMK in the test media. I mention this to compare some field results to test results on monolithic solids.

Stick with me there is eventually a moral to the story.



The bullet on the left is a NF Cup Point fired in test media. The bullet on the right was fired in to a large animal in Africa. I have several other similar pictures.

So the moral is I will give up a small degree of accuracy to gain a great degree of toughness. The bullet pictured above give a good example of how tough large animals can be. That shot would have destroyed a Berger and the chances of killing the animal would have greatly be diminished.

Again I am not disputing the Bergers work, just giving my point of view why premium hunting bullets are better for the hunting I do.

Yup - different ends of the spectrum. The Berger isn't a North Fork, or a Barnes. Different ways of doing their work. For heavy game, I choose a heavily constructed, deep-penetrating bullet too.

For elk sized game on down the ladder, the Berger hunting VLDs work. Although I have not been to Africa yet, I would not discount the VLDs for performing extremely well on smaller, medium, and on medium/large African plains game.

No VLDs should ever be used on caped buffs, crocs, elephants, lions, hippos, rhinos, and maybe not on the largest of kudu.

Given everything I`ve seen and from the reports, the VLDs should do well in Africa hunting the "proper" game.

Hey I though you were dead???

So they're okay to use on elk, but not Kudu?
Kudu being roughly the same size as elk if not a tad smaller...
Makes perfect sense to me

.......A 1000 pardons for my African game mis-identity.

How abouts largest of "eland" instead. Got a kudu mixed up with an eland.....Yep. Eland grow bigger.

......I think that needs to be posted another thousand times. No. Make it a million.

How does one categorize the literary style of Larry Root? Obviously not a historical novel, or even the Cliff Notes version thereof. Not enough factual information to qualify. Can't be fiction, as that style needs a story line and some direction, eventually leading to a conclusion. Not sure what to call it. I guess it'll have to be labeled B.S. That's a catch all category big enough to accommodate most of these droppings...

DF

I would so shoot an African lion with a VLD.

This grizzly bear outweighed most any lion and the VLD simply wrecked him from very bad angles.

........John....When it comes to VLDs, you have far more experience than me. I`m on your side when it comes to the VLDs. My only VLD kills are a bunch of hogs and one bull elk.

If I had included on my list that VLDs were an acceptable bullet for lion, I probably would have gotten thrashed by the VLD haters.

Instead, you get to take the heat.

I thought you died; or at least had the decency to quit. Oh I forgot, nothing you say is true. Carry on.

I'd love to see a pic of you with your VLD killed elk...

...............You can believe or not believe whatever you want. I really don`t care.

Got pics. 35mm pics in a photo album.

Assume I were to learn how to post pics. Let`s assume further I did post pics from my various hunts and assume even further that I could put a video on this forum featuring my nephew and his friend explaining everything and why they pulled their joke.

Since my credibility is already down the tubes of which I really don`t care anyway, do you really think that if I did all of the above that it would change a damn thing?

Nope! I`d be accused of either photo shopping my hunts, or borrowing the photos, coaching the boys to say what happened and why, and coaching their apology. And in doing all that I`d be giving further ammo to guys like you who believe that guilty before innocence is a good thing? Innocence which could be proven sufficiently.

You and many on this forum are not worth that effort. Not gonna fall into your bait trap to appease those (including you),,,who are not worth appeasing in the least, let alone making any effort to post anything.

But if you`re ever in OC, I have a few hunting photo albums you can look through. Have a few m/arts tourney trophies from many years ago sitting in a glass case, have a bunch of photos from that profession, including many studio photos when my former partner and I owned our three studios.

That`s about as much effort as I intend to offer.

Have your nephew help you, He's a computer whiz right?

And he's familiar with your computer, password and all, right?

Oh man........now I need to re-fill my coffee......

TFF!

John,
Have you posted info about your grizzly hunt or a video? Appreciate you sharing your experience.

With your skills, finances and abilities I find it hard to believe that you don't own a digital camera or a scanner. Given your intellect it's hard to believe that you can't understand how to post pics... I'd think that with hundreds of dead hogs to your credit that you'd manage at least a photo from a cell phone. Please hang just one pic of you accomplishing something.

As for your credibility, the only comment from you that is credible is that you're likely from California--the OC is less likely, but no doubt you must reside in California...

Which cartridge and bullet??? Inquiring minds.......

Snork!

John

And distance??

[/quote]As for your credibility, the only comment from you that is credible is that you're likely from California--the OC is less likely, but no doubt you must reside in California...

[/quote]........Well that kind of remark is a good reason why I could care less about making any effort for guys like you or to appease people like you. Doing what you ask won`t change anything.

Your bait trap no doubt, will be manuvered against me one way or the other by many.

I might be wrong BUT I think the 35 mm film camera was long obsolete and replaced by digital before Berger started marketing hunting VLD's




So why do you continue to hang here? Curious....

My friend killed a grizzly with a with his 7 wsm loaded with 168 vlds. Another friend of his posted about it on the hide a while back. That post said he used the 180 but when I asked him about it while elk hunting with him he said he used the 168. He said it worked well.

Bb

I'll just make an observation gents for what it's worth, but historical evidence here suggests that individuals who claim ignorance or issues with posting pictures as an excuse, turn out to be less than candid. This is by no means a blanket observation, but there it is.

Guys a question on vld brass preparation? Do you suggest using a Chamfer reamer? Which brand would you suggest?

I use a VLD neck reamer. IIRC I just bought a Lyman. It works.

Ditto here.
I am using the RCBS VLD tool.

[/quote]I might be wrong BUT I think the 35 mm film camera was long obsolete and replaced by digital before Berger started marketing hunting VLD's




So why do you continue to hang here? Curious....[/quote].........Since you inquired in a respectful way, I`ll answer you......Both my 35mm Canon and a 35mm Nikon have been with me for quite awhile. One of them happened to be my late father`s who died in `02. Both are outdated for sure, but they work perfectly fine for me. I am also an album type of guy, where many pics are of different sizes including 8x10 blow-ups. For me, it is like sitting down and turning the pages of a good book without getting on a computer or throwing in a disc. All albums are kept on and in the coffee table in my den. Not apologizing for being obsolete.

So why do I continue to hang here?...After much thought during my nearly 3 month absence from this site and back in mid October stating never to return, I decided not to continue to voluntarily and permanently restrict myself because of the actions by two others. I simply changed my mind. I guess many here don`t understand, that people do change their minds regardless of how much their minds were made up beforehand which were stated in a post. Some here enjoy reminding me of my past quotes and insist I follow through. Oh well.

I will also point out that I have received a few PMs of
support from others here on this forum and still do while the majority of the "guilty before innocence" crowd seek their posting revenge. So when they post their garbage, I am becoming more inclined just to post a few icons,,, or ...In fact, their posts are becoming more fun to read.

Sure! I am not getting any like around here. But so what. As said before, I`m not here to make friends with those whom I`ll never meet. I have quite a few off-line shooting/hunting friends whom I`ve known for alot of years that can at times keep me very busy.

Nobody needs a gun/hunting forum. But it`s fun and one can legitimately learn a few things, pick up a few pointers and pick up some new ideas here and there.

So when the more dislike and hateful sabre rattling postings go on back and forth regarding me or regarding anything else, it really accomplishes nothing, and changes nothing for either side. Even before this fiasco, I have in the past found myself really getting pissed off here and there. Gonna try and not go there anymore. It will be interesting to see if some follow suit.

Some will post what they want. I`ll either totally ignore them or just use these,,,, ....

That `ol saying of,,,"sticks and stones",,,applies here too.

Bigsqueeze,

I dont know you, but have seen some of the school yard bullying you have suffered. No doubt some of it you brought on yourself.

I think the above post of yours is a good mindset to have.

There is a saying or quote that goes; "There comes a point in your life when you realize who matters, who never did, who won�t anymore, and who always will."

The grizzly is in this video. I should not have shot him when I did with the first shot but you can see how well the VLD worked even at that extreme angle. The second shot was going straight away and it is hard to complain about bullet perfomance.

Although I have just enough experience to be dangerous (one Africa plains game trip and two large bull elk shot with Berger .284 168 gr VLDs), here I go...

Much of African hunting is short range shooting (the Karoo and parts of Namibia as notable exceptions.) There is also the possibility of a REALLY short range encounter. I believe that the Bergers offer superior long range performance (for years I thought shoot large game with them was an irresponsible stunt; I no longer do.) I would prefer a bullet with a different engineering concept for Africa. Partitions, A-Frames, TSX, etc. are designed for the most consistent terminal performance and that is what I would choose.

How does a Berger VLD differ, in construction, from a Sierra Match King? My impression is that both use a J4 jacket with soft unbonded lead inside. the VLD has a slightly better ballistic coefficient. The Match King has a slightly better shape for accuracy, and you don't have to seat it as far toward the lands.

If all that's true, I don't understand why anyone would hunt with one (or a Match King). It would be a reprise of Roy Weatherby's arguments from 1960. Explosive bullets may be fine for sticking between a deer's ribs but when you have to crunch bone, what good are they?

Never considered hunting with VLDs but I am ready to be enlightened, if there's anything to it.

Then I would suggest you start a thread (yet another one, I might add) out of the Africa forum where it will get the appropriate visibility. Five years ago I was EXACTLY 100% aligned with the logic in your post. Several things changed my mind:

--John Barsness's testing in the Bullet Tube and on animals,
--My elk guide's strong recommendation--insistence almost--that I use them, and
--Their performance on the two bull elk I got to examine first hand (168 gr 7mm).

They do appear to go in a couple of inches and then create a wicked (deep and wide) wound channel. I do not know the technical details of the construction of Berger hunting v. target bullets, or how they compare to SMKs. Not all cup and core bullets are the same. Jacket thicknesses and tapers can vary, as can core alloys. I would not be surprised to learn that their game performance was a serendipitous outcome of Berger's efforts to design efficient LR bullets, rather than an intentional effort to engineer a hunting bullet.

But back to Africa...it is also a very different thing to snipe a grizzly bear at 700 yards than to stop a lion at 10. I have done neither, but I have walked the lands where both are a possibility, and know what bullets I would depend on in either case. They would differ.