What would you say for 30-06 on Greater Kudu, 165gr or 180gr ?
I almost always like to use the 165gr,,,but I have never hunted in Africa, so what is the general view?
thanks, John H.

Either will work fine. Kudu are not that tough, about like a whitetail. I prefer 180s because you never know what you may run into- like a zebra, oryx, or wildebeast.

From Kudu to Whitetail is long way to go...LOL therefore 180gr is much better option. ...have shoot myself two kudu..one with 9,3x64 293gr RWS UC and other with 30-06 and 180gr Nosler AccuBond...both faild same place where take hit...
Same time my friend run after Kudu long way even he shoot with 180gr Norma Oryx in very right place (shoulder).
30-06 and 165gr might be enough but better is to be sure and use 180gr...

If you shoot a good premium like the TSX, the 168 will work fine, Either way the 06 is a good selection.

Keep it simple and "use enough gun", 180 gr. Why would you go lighter? You never know what steps out instead of kudu.

I don't think it matters.

Kudu are in fact easy to kill. Wildebeeste and Gemsbok (oryx) have a reputation of being hard to kill but this is probably because their organs sit low in the chest. Hit a Wildebeeste in the center of the chest and you've passed above the spine (see "The Perfect Shot" by Kevin Robertson). It might make a difference on Eland.

I use 180 grain Partitions for all game in my .300 Weatherby simply because I don't have to think about it then. I have only recovered one bullet, an angling who at a Wildebeeste. All kills have been one shot kills.

I just returned and had eight one shot kills using 165 grain TTSX from a 300 WSM. i recovered one bullet from a blesbuck shot stern to stem; all others were pass throughs. Animals were kudu, gemsbok, blesbuck, impala, zebra. I see no reason to be concerned with the right 165 grain bullet.

Like Bob33, I used nothing but 165s in my 06, when I went the first time. Took Kudu, Oryx, Eland, wildebeeste, Zebra, Impala and Sable. Used the 165gr Nosler partition. On the Eland went from behind the last rib on the left side, to the right shoulder. My wife took her Sable with the 06 and I took mine with the 45/70. Her Zebra was a head on shot at a 100 yds, hit where the v comes together. It turned and ran a little ways and fell over. The Impala, Springbok, duikers, warthogs, are all small animals, and the 180s contructed for bigger animals, like the Eland, and don't always work as well. The 165s will drop them where they are most of the time. I never use 180s in the 06 here, either, as whitetails small and light, and need a quick opening bullet. If I go for Elk or Moose with the 06, might use a heavier bullet. As noted, my Eland shot with the 165, and worked perfect.

165-168gr TTSX's will take them all cleanly, and better penetration than a 180 PArtition or other more conventional bullet. Easy choice and answer.

Good luck and where are you going? And when?

Kudu are MUCH larger than a whitetail,BTW. Closer in size to a cow Elk.

My son used 180 gr. nosler part., for his 1 shot kudu kill out of the 06. Having said that, any of the premium bullets will get the job done. Pick the most accurate for your rifle. Personally, I lean to the heavier bullets for Africa, all else being equal.


maddog

This thread has raised the question of using either 165 or 180 gr. bullets. Folks have offered that when the hit is right the 165 is enough but no one has offered why you wouldn't use a 180 gr. bullet. I honestly don't see why you go with a lighter bullet weight given the variety of game to be encountered and the issue to bullet placement. So why would you use the 165?

Safariman, thanks for the info.
I am going to RSA, not to far north of Port Elizabeth.
I will be hunting the first week of October.

" So why would you use the 165?"

It is very accurate, a bit flatter shooting, lighter recoil, and superb on game performance. Why not use it?

I used 168TTSX and it performed as described, in my .30-06!

Having a 30/06 used by myself and many of my hunters for hundreds of animals now from steenbok and jackal to eland and giraffe the 165 tsx is the bullet of choice. The tsx is the best plains game bullet I've ever seen used. They also operate at their best when driven as fast as possible. The 165 shoots faster then the 180 so that answers that!

Sure a 180 works but it's slower. The weight becomes irrelevant when the 165s exit 90% of the time. The 165s recoil less and exit as often and open better at their higher velocity. The only reason to use the 180 is with a 3000plus fps cartridge.

JJ, I agree 165's work and work well. With that said for me I have settled on the 180's and they have worked to perfection for me. With 57.5 grains of H-4350 I get 2880 out of my 06


I also agree about the TSX's bullets

Uptonwood: Because the 180s are TOO heavily constructed for light stuff like Impala, Springbok, etc. They are made to work on HEAVY, animals. So, they don't work particularly well on Impala, whitetails, mule deer, etc. A 165 will, however, open quickly and provide a good wound, as well as the "shock" of it opening faster. The 165s, especially in the Ttsx bullets, also will penetrate as much as the 180s. Last year, when hunting the East Cape, I used 150s in my 308, and they worked very well. A guy near me was telling me a year or so back about having to track or look for deer shot with the 180s. I told him , use the 150s or 165s and you won't have to do that.

So far any animal I have shot with the 168 gr tsx has been a one step tracking session as they have dropped in their tracks. Closest shot 65 yards, fsrthest 360 yards as measured by lazer range finder.

Animals range in size from 200 to 1000 pound. One round recovered and surprizingly that was a 65 yd gemsbok through both humerus and protruding 1/8 inch through skin. two petals remaining but flattened, two missing. Both front legs shattered and lungs shredded. A pretty spectacular failure.

Randy

Ghost, I understand you point but I was chatting with my outfitter and my PH, I asked them what they thought the best caliber rifle was for hunting African game and both were clear: .375. I said that seemed really heavy, what if you want to shoot a duiker? Their response was "Use solids."

If I lived in South Africa or another country in that continent and was targeting springbok, or duiker, or bushbuck I would probably use a .270 with high quality 140 gr bullets. However, trudging through dense thickets which may produce a huge kudu or elant, or a good duiker, I guess the rationale for using any bullet weight lighter than 180 gr. eludes me.

In the U.S. I think 168 gr. are more than enough punch for our antelope, mule deer, and whitetails, but using my rationale above, I would use 180 gr. if I thought that I might run up on a black bear while hunting these animals. I would also use 180 gr. if I ever become crazy enough to start hunting elk.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, I think your point is that the quality of the round is the most important part of taking game in Africa, more important than quibbling between .300 magnums, 30.06, or 7mm. And I would agree with you on that issue. I appreciate your comments and I am going to look closely at the 168 tsx for more consideration.

Both the 165 and the 180 grain bullets in .30 caliber are .308 inches in diameter. Higher velocity means a 165 grain will usually expand more quickly than 180 grain of equivalent construction, creating a larger wound channel.

A 165 grain TSX will, a very high percentage of the time completely pass through small and medium sized animals up to 1000 pounds or more.

It has less recoil.

To rephrase an earlier question, why would anyone choose to use a 180 grain?

If 180 grains are better than a 165, then why not use a 200 or 220 grain?

I agree with JJhack... 165 and 168 gr TTSX are the best thing going.

If Terry or JJ say "jump" when it comes to recommendations, my response (and yours) should be "how high"...

I guess I am old school. Nosler's Partition has always worked, and there is no reason that it shouldn't do so in the future. Having said that, I would use the 180 or 200 grain Partition. They shoot flat enough for any distance I would shoot and they will work.

After using the 168 TSX in a 308 Winchester for a while now I stopped trying anything else. It is phenomenal in my rifle

I'm "old fachion" and will stay on 180 or 200gr Lapua Mega in my 30-06 for moose and wild boar hunting. Also it works fine for roe...do not see need to change to TSX as it didn't run well in my Blaser. But for next Africa trip will load my 9,3x64 Brenneke with 270gr Lapua Naturalis what by finn's fairy-tales is even better than TXS...LOL.

...and they always will. NP's are my benchmark. That said, I prefer TSX's, and would personally go with 165's. However, you'll not be wrong to use 180 NP's.

ok, after reading every post here, and checking a few web sites, I will try to pick up PMP ammo in P.E., their "high end" round is loaded with Swift A-Frame bullets...so that 30-06 will be used by me,,,if I can find it at a local shop.
thanks for all the info.

Both of the bullets below have been to Africa, and served their purpose extremly well. Both are 168 TTSX fired from a 300 wsm (MV unknown, I did not chronograph it). Both knocked their pray flat on their ass, as did several others that are still going as far as I know.

Has anyone used the 150 TTSX? My new 300 wsm is shooting them at over 3400 fps and sub 1/2 moa.

Bb

Speaking from experience I have used the 168 TSX's since 2004 on elk and bear (throw in a pile of mule deer, white tail, and pronghorn too)with nothing but excellent results in my 300 wsm. I have the utmost confidence in this combo so Why would I use anything else? The 168 tsx's give up nothing to most other 180's.

Simple really.

If you stopped reading reloading manuals around 1972, and ignore the advances in bullet technology in the last 10 years OR...if you are just a cheap SOB and only want to use bulk C&C bullets, then yes, shoot the 180's and don't look back.

However, if you HAVE kept up on bullet technology, you understand that everything you ever knew about bullets is now thrown out the window and irrelevant. Hard for a lot of people to grasp, because humans as a species fear change in any tiny way, especially hunters/gun nuts for some reason.

Modern, what I consider "super premium" bullets, are NOTHING like the bullets of old. Using the heaviest available bullets in a caliber to insure deep penetration was a problem with crappy soft bullets from over 100 years ago. Period. End of discussion. Its like comparing a modern direct injection multi-stage cam lift engine vs the Model T's engine. They don't compare except the fact that they are in fact inside a car, and make it go vroom.

With these new super premiums, penetration is damn near guaranteed to exceed anything else, pending the animal doesn't have a 6" steel plate around its heart. Sure the old bullets killed just fine, still do. BUT, humans while fearing change, also crave advancement (we are a funny lot). Metals are better, machining and tools are better, powders are better, primers are more consistent, bullets naturally are in the same line. You simply do NOT NEED anything over the "medium" end of bullet weights in any given caliber for todays modern bullets. This has been proven through hundreds of posts on various forums, articles, testing, and lab work from bullet makers.

Want to use cup and core soft points on an elk in 30-06? Sure, use 180's, heck 200's are better. Using a multi-part bullets such as the Partition or A-Frame? 180's is cheap insurance but you're probably fine going lighter and 165's will do the job just fine, this goes for bonded core bullets too.

Now, if you are using monometal or non-conventional style bullets? 165's and under, and you'll have NO issue, damn near from any angle. I wish someone would do some penetration tests here so we could see, but I know over on AR guys have used the 130gr TTSX in 308 mags to kill elk just FINE. Most guys would scoff and say a 130gr will bounce off even the tinniest of elk!!! How dare you insult the game by using such a small bullet?! But they forget, Barnes bullets will almost always give full penetration, regardless of MANY factors.

They shoot flatter, meaning less hold over or trying to do math instead of concentrating on the target. They recoil less, which means you can shoot larger cartridges comfortably, or just practice a whole lot more. Might get rid of that flinch too....no one will admit it, but I bet there are more then a few people reading this now that developed some bad habits by sticking to old lore with shooting. Most won't also admit the 30-06 with 180's is just too much for them. But, I know they exist, I see them at the range, flinching at a shot with 8-9lbs 06. If they were shooting 150's I bet they'd do better. I know the 130's in my 300wby are cream puffs on the receiving end of the recoil.



SAYING ALL THAT....if a 165gr partition makes it through eland, then there is absolutely NO reason to "need" anything more. African game are not bullet proof, I think that perception became of physiological differences then what US hunters are used to. Whitetail hunters are used to the high shoulder shot...well, don't always work with every animal lol

What's a high shoulder shot? I shoot for the armpit, where the leg joins the body, on a whitetail, of maybe half way up, right behind the shoulder. Never, never, shoot one in the shoulder, all it does is waste a lot of meat IMO. But agree with you on the rest of it.

ghost I agree with the armpit location. Tight to the leg 1/3 of the way up. I have to admit to head shots whenever possible, but I am a meat hunter.

Go to my web page and read the article on the shoulder shot. This is such a poorly understood term/ concept

www.huntingadventures.net

MileHigh Shooter,
For the 30-06 with Swift A-Frames, would you go with the 180gr @ 2750fps or the 165gr @ 2900fps for all plains game?

If your desire is to collect beautifully mushroomed bullets then the Aframes are the best game in town

If you want two holes to leave blood and unmatched penetration the TSX is the best thing going. I lead with the TSX when discussing options for my arriving hunters. First choose what your barrel likes best, if all else is equal the TSX is your best option.

The PH I hunted with told me that if Americans would all show up with a 30-06 and 180 grain Partitions his life would be alot sweeter. When I asked about DG he jumped right to the .458 Winchester...

That.....

My .30-06 shoots 180s much better than other weights so I use them for everything. The type of bullet I choose depends on what I'm hunting.

How about when you are hunting African PG Swampy?

No golf carts over there, you know...

Fixed it for you!

I hunt Africa with 165gr tsx. The golf cart seemed to manage the Karoo much better than with the 180gr. Probably less weight to overcome. take a look at my avatar photo for full humour.

Randy

I have had stellar results on Elk using 180 gr. Partitions, Speer Hotcors and Hornady interloks. I use Partitions generally nowadays though and would certainly take them to Africa to hunt Kudu if I got the chance.

Whatever your rifle shoots best. 165's 180's as long as you shoot straight and not try and shoot an elephant with the 30-06 (for some or other reason I should perhaps not have said shooting an elephant with a 30-06). Specially not from the back of a golf cart

Have a friend who DID kill his first elephant with a 30/06, using the 220gr RNFMJ bullet. Frontal brain shot, from about 15 yards, when he was 12. Later became a PH in Rhodesia, as it was called then.

http://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/the-30-06-still-americas-best/

...........Same `ol yada, yada, yada.

Ballistically every 300 WSM/Win will do the job equally as well if not better.

30-06..........Famous and boring.

The late Jack O'Connor once wrote something to the effect that new shooters bought the latest fad calibers, but that connoisseurs stayed with the classics.

I agree with Jack, but in 1903 the 3006 was the 30-03 and not yet a classic. Perhaps one day one of these wunderkinds will not be a memory and be a classic. It usually takes military adoption to garner major acceptance but not always.

The Barnes X bullet was rejected by the majority because it was a new concept. I liked the concept and have used them from the start with consistant results that have never failed me. Some decry them still but they have become a classic causing cup and core bullets to pick up the pace, so to speak.

I resisted the 30-06 for decades because it had a cultic following, but in 2008 I bought one and realise it is pretty much as advertised by those I considered fanatics previously. By mixing the old cartridge with the new Barnes bullets I am very satisfied with the 165 gr for any game up to what I feel requires a 375H&H. Point in fact is that I have retired my 338 win mag from its former role as every day hunter.

Randy

But in 1903, making a quantum jump from BP cartridges to smokelss. There were smokelss rounds before 1903, of course, the 30/30 and 30/40, but they weren't in the same class. When the 30/30 first came out, Col. Whelen proclaimed it (with the 160gr bullet) the BEST Elk cartridge he'd ever seen. When the 03/06 came out, he went to that.

Ain't nothing wrong with Boring.. if hunting, your primary purpose is to put the game down quick and the 06 works. Taking something else out just to be "different" seems strange to me.

Boring is good when bullet placement is consistant and results are reliable.

The smokeless rounds were also present in mauser rifles very early. I also enjoy the 7x57 which is another boring rround.

I don't have much hunting experience with the 30-06 having own just two in my life a M-70 and a sako carbine. But I did take the Winchester Elk hunting some, it shot 165 gr TBBC loads from federal very very well so well you could cover the group with a quarter at 200 yards. The Elk never cared, they just fell over. So yea a good 165 gr Bullet will do fine on Kudu. I only had the chance to hunt those once a long time ago. What ever shoots best in your rifle. After all its you who is writing the check for it. My opinion on this is just that an opinion based on what I have seen over the years nothing more.

The 7x57 is not boring! The 300 WSM who cares.

Exactly my sentiment. My tongue was securely pushing my cheek when that was written. Those chamberings that have stood the test of time and passed with honours into this present have done so for a very good reason.

the 7-08 tried to duplicate the 7x57 why?
the 260 tried to duplicate the 6.5x55 why?
the 308 tried to duplicate the 30-06 why?

I believe it is so a new generation can believe they have improved on the previous. There have been improvements in ballistic projectiles to be sure, but were they eally needed? All the above just work even better than they did with cup and core, but did the game need to be more dead?

These are just some of the thoughts of an old recoil hound. The last couple of years I have succombed to a couple new age rounds. The 375 H&H and the 257 Roberts. I guess we are all affected by the "new is better" advertising.

Randy (aka squinty)

Randy and all - would there be any use for a .30-30 lever action in Africa? Like for warthogs and impala and that sort of thing? I thoroughly enjoy shooting and hunting with mine and was thinking it might be kind of fun to take it to Africa if I ever get over there. Am loading a 170 gr Rem Core Lokt to about 2100 fps with good accuracy.



The doggone thing is so light, handy and quick to get into action...

On the other hand I do have a good .30-06 and a .375 as well. Just got to wondering 'bout the .30-30 and Africa...

GuyM it will be bordering on sin to leave it at home. Perfect for smaller critters and impala and hogs. The 30-06 or the 375 will be a perfect second rifle.

Wow - good to know... thanks for the encouragement, as I was thinking it might be silly to even contemplate bringing a .30-30 along.

The .375 has to make the trip. I've truly no reason to own a .375 H&H rifle, but since I have one, if I do get to Africa, it's coming along! The rifle has been there before and apparently did quite well, but I haven't made the trip yet. That one shoots well too.

Regards, Guy

The idea that a 30-06 and a .375 is all most folks need seems to be getting on a lot of folks nerves. Maybe you should add fishing and golf as a boredom cure...

Guy, the only caution I would have is that you will grab that little rifle off the truck to chase a warthog (which it will handle just fine) and after following him for a quarter mile, the kudu of your dreams will be standing at 250 yards on the next ridge with a six inch window to his chest. I have used my Evans paradox over there, and have had exactly the that happen. Just have to be willing to laugh and keep chasing that stupid pig.