Has anyone had experiences hunting game in Africa with 6.5s like the 260rem, 6.5x55, 6.5 creedmoor, 6.5x47 ect, No dangerous game but Kudu and Gemsbok might be on the list.

Do a little research, and you'll see the 6.5x54 and Swede have been killing critters big and small in Africa for over a 100yrs. Considering the 260rem and creedmore are ballistic twins to the swede, they should work well.

I believe Col. Boddington[?] took his daughter to Africa and she killed quite a few critters with the 260 about 10yrs ago.

Yes it works well for most of our big game. Premium grade ammunition and shot placement assist.

I have an Italian hunter with a Swedish passport who uses a 6.5 X 55 with great effect over here up to kudu and gemsbok size.

What bullet(s) did your client use do you recall? Curious, thanks.

Just want to be sure that the country and/or province you are hunting it doesn't have a minimum caliber requirement. It might be a legal size for a "local" but not for a foreign guest hunter. Example is Namibia that has a 7mm caliber minimum.

I have shot a few head of plains game with a Winchester/USRA 70 FWt in 6.5x55 using Norman 156 grain SP factory ammo. The Eland took 3 shots before it went down, but any of the 3 would have killed it, Eland are big, tough, and Stubborn.

My PH was a little nervous at 1st, but I proved to him that I could shoot and wasn't affraid to ask his advice for the preferred POA.

Jeff

I took a Kimber Classic in 260 on a trip to RSA. I used it mostly culling blesbuck and impala at night but did shoot 2 kudu bulls, a few warthog, and springbuck as trophys.

I didn't intend to hunt the kudu with it but it was in my hand when I saw them.

I shot 120 Nosler BT's at right around 3000 fps.

If hunting kudu sized game I would sure opt for heavier and tougher bullets than the 120 Bt's but they worked on those 2 animals. A monster sample of 2!

On our trip to Namibia in Sept10, my mate used a Sako Finnlight in 6.5x55. He took kudu, red hartebeest, oryx and half a dozen springbok, all were DRT, in fact none of them even twitched after they went down.
He was using handloads with 140gr Accubonds and they were all pass thrus.

Yes, there is a 7mm minimum calibre restriction in Namibia but the only numbers the police officer at the airport was interested in the airport was serial numbers.

John:

Yes, the Namibian Police at the airport only concern themselves there with the serial numbers matching the 4457's. There is no restriction on caliber size of rifles temporarily entering the country so the police there at the airport don't give a rat....unless one of them simply decides to ask to see your "Invitation/Motivation Letter" that says anything about "hunting" and decides to pull your "Arrival/Departure" form to see what you stated your reason for requesting entry was.

Legally, you can even temporarily import semi-automatic long guns but don't get caught using a sub legal caliber or semi-auto long gun on game or heaven forbid have an "accident" with either, or caught at a random road block with a game carcass and an..."inappropriate" firearm.

I've been making the trip to Namibia every year for the past six years and only once did I have an "issue" with a Namibian police officer trying to nit-pic all my paperwork, firearms and ammo head-stamps and round count. I am sure he was looking for a "donation" but my documents and firearms were 100% correct and other than wasting my time he didn't get a dime.

Do as you wish but I just wanted to point out the each country and even the various provinces within a given country may have caliber, or bullet weight, velocity or muzzle energy requirements for specific "game" animals and it could be bad to paint "all" of Africa and what is legal for locals as it may not be legal for others.

Bell took a lot of jumbos with the 6.5 mannlicher.

If you have to take this calibre and hunt your mentioned game, I would recommend something like the TSX's or TTSX from Barnes. Atleast you can be asured that you will have the penetration and that the bullets will hold together.
Shot placement will be key and don't test the calibre's capabilities on too heavy angling shots.
It will be a great hunt non the less.

Take Care,
Marius Goosen

156 gr Norma Oryx and he is happy with them. Good advice from Marius about not trying to quarter the shots by too much of an angle on larger game like gemsbok and kudu.

Some provinces require a minimum caliber of 243. Nevertheless it is the landowner who has the final say where some require a minimum of 270.

I figured a 156 would be a top choice given test results:

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/4769172/1


https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth..._Huge_264_bullet_test_Part_D#Post4848762

The 156, 140 Partitions, and Barnes 120/130s would be my pick.

The former would be longish for most OEM short action mag boxes. Seafire here did throat his Rugers out for 156-160s and they seem to work fine in those 260s.

The reason that I shot Norma 156 grain ammo in my Winchester/USRA 70 Fwt was because the PH suggested that I bring ammo that was available in Maun, in case my ammo got separated from my rifles. I brought Norma for my 6.5x55 and Winchester for my 375 H&H, 40 rounds for each, and left with most of the ammo and all of the 1x fired brass.

Jeff

I really think the references to what Bell did must be the most out of context bit of folk lore in the history of the Internet hunting websites.

Bell was a poacher, he went deep into the bush with a wagon train to shoot elephants on month long or longer "safari's". The guns he used were not for hunting, they were for shooting bulls and allowing them to run off to die in parts unknown. The safari trip carried on following and shooting bulls along the way for weeks. Nothing was being tracked up, no trophies saved, no meat used, just shoot them and then let them run of to die of infection, or slowly bleeding to death.

Then when supplies were getting low for the staff, they would head back over the same track following their noses, or looking for vultures and hyenas to lead them to the rotting carcasses. You see,... the ivory slides out of a rotting carcass, where it must be chopped out with an axe for hours when fresh. That chopping also risked damage to the ivory.

It was much easier to just backtrack and fetch the ivory loading the wagon on the way back. If he did not find the bulls he wounded and they simply ran off he did not care! They simply picked up the ivory along the way that they could find. What was the percentage of bulls shot to those killed and ivory found? His claim was " probably more then half"

Wow, that 6.5 and 7mm was a dandy elephant rifle eh! what a load of BS going around with the claims that since Bell used it on Elephants, then it must be good enough for anything else.

Well, lets think about that, you have 7-14 days to hunt, 8-10 or more animals to harvest. With angles, distances, weather, fading light, and brush in the way you cannot predict. Not to mention you will most likely be wanting to hunt, not search for tracks and a non-existant blood trail for a whole day for the animals you hit.

Now, if all you wanna do is collect the horns from the rotting trophies when you eventually find them, ...... then you're good to go, Just like Bell!

Since you're replying to me, please point out where I have posted anything about Mr. W.D.M. Bell.

There is nothing comparable in 2012 to ahat Bell did, when he did it, and how he did it. But is Africa a better place today than it was in Bell's day?

Jeff

Mainly factory loads are used by most of the casual hunters over here.

It has been pointed out that some of our provinces here have different minimum required calibers where the 6.5 may be in dispute as to legality. Will try to get a list and make the info available.

Jeff,

This site has the awkward reply function to the last person that posted, rather then just a generic reply to the thread. You have to understand that many posts, maybe even most posts are replied to when the end of the thread is read, not replied to in the middle of a thread. With that,... almost every reply is posted at the end of reading, which makes them all seem to have been a deliberate reply to the previous poster.

This is not the case here as my post had nothing to do with yours. You were just simply the previous post!

Or, you could just go to the post that you're replying to and click on "reply".

Jeff

Hack just soiled his shorts..........

Mr. Raider, I could quite frankly not care any less about what a man decides to hunt with. Based on the experience of 20 plus years in the bush, I am trying to help folks decide on the prudent option. It is what I get paid for. Since I actually do get paid for my opinion,..... those funding my bank account usually pay attention.

Makes no difference to me if a fella wants to pay the trophy fee for a blood spot on the ground, or a trophy on his wall. Either way I'm getting paid. You are welcome to bring anything you want to hunt with when you hunt with me. But the impact of your bullet to an animal rings the register..............feel lucky?

Interesting stuff. I did not know about Bell.. Thanks for sharing.

Worked well for Francis Macomber's wife.

I don�t know much about folk lore in the history of the Internet hunting websites, but the context bit you speak of was that Bell was an ivory hunter roughly 100 years ago.
The context of: �Makes no difference to me if a fella wants to pay the trophy fee for a blood spot on the ground, or a trophy on his wall. Either way I'm getting paid� does not to me seem to me any more honorable than an ivory hunter operating under then conventions at the turn of the last century. Maybe I�m missing something, but stalking elephants on their migratory routes before the use of planes, lorrys, cell phones, trail cams, and a few other modern conveniences seems as sporting to me as someone waiting outside the park or behind a fence.
A hunter in the bush at that time needed the consent of the local governing authority if their career was going to have any longevity. Maybe they weren�t going to wait for return correspondence from Lisbon to cross a river, but I�m sure they sought the approval of the local authority whenever possible. Consent usually being with the understanding the locals get the meat. As an ivory hunter he really couldn�t be expected to pack around a couple of elephant carcasses at any given time now could he? Ivory hunters wanted to leave someone from their staff with the tusks at least until they could be buried. I�m also sure Bell would continue to look for them as long as practical, if for no other reason than it was money and even in those days finding them was hard work; Bell would not have just wondered off because it involved a walk. The question was if anyone has used the 6.5. To that end the answer is yes. With over 1000 jumbos, a goodly portion of which was collected with the 6.5 and inferior ammo, the answer is yes. Keeping Bell�s practices viewed in light of the 1900 � 1920s timeframe would provide a more accurate portrayal than using the 1990s on as a reference of standards and ethics. The guy took jumbo at 16 yards with a frontal brain shot, sounds sporting to me regardless of which European kingdom claimed ownership.

Okay, fine you're right........ the 6.5mm is the apex of elephant hunting because it's what Bell used, I will relent to your wisdom and all the experience you have. After all I just work there as a PH, what do I know?

As far as the blood spot on the ground or the trophy on the wall....... your confusion over this statement is quite telling, I suppose you can continue to assume what you like about that, or somebody else that cares to explain it will chime in.

Richard

It is the rule/law that should you take a shot and draw blood but not recover the animal you still pay for it

I didn't take my Swede to Africa but have some experience with the Swede on animals to 250 pounds on the hoof.....one can do better but I'm at a loss to explain how.....the Swede is a splendid cartridge for many of the plains game critters.....at least to 250 pounds and I'd not hesitate to use it on animals substantially larger as well.....say to 400 pounds.

I am NOT hunting elephants, I am an expert (get paid to shoot and instruct)Marksman. I never take a hurried shot if I am not confident that I can make it. I have never lost deer, elk or any large game animal in forty years of hunting. I spend a great deal of time shooting from field positions and maintain myself in top physical fitness. I can just bring the ole 06 but again, Kudu, Gemsbok, Eland, ....plains game. I have killed elk with 25-06 and 7-08 without difficulties.
Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement.

Longwalker:

Just for reference, here are a couple of links to current minimum calibers in various African countries.

AR Min Cal Posting

I know the listing above for South Africa is not correct and here is a link to the RSA game laws. RSA Hunting Standards & Norms You'll have to download the *.pdf file and skim down to Chapter 4.

The 6.5 is not legal in Namibia for listed "game" and can not be legally used in RSA on "game" larger than Springbok.

Here is the link to the Namibian hunting laws. NAPHA Hunting Law Summary

Oh I see, it�s about you and not having your authority challenged. Telling indeed. If not recognizing the difference between a statement of fact vs. an endorsement, your personal declaration of ethos as a PH, and the blanketing characterization of Bell somehow seems to emotionally wound you, what a joy you make it. Don�t hold it against Bell that he couldn�t fly in, grab a rental car, and drive to the farm. Beyond that, although it was not my original contention, the 6.5 is perfectly adequate for most all game the continent offers, regardless whether you have spent 20 years being a knucklehead.

Hi UKDave, I uderstand and thank you. I just prefer a PH that does care if you get a mount or blood trail for my money, and the game.

Richard, your presentation of what you believe to be fact about Bell shows that you have no knowledge of his history. He was a Poacher.

If I was such a Knucklehead would I be trying to help the people here that think sub 30 caliber rifles are adequate for the hunting Africa as a general rule, and more importantly the follow up blood trails to actually find the game they shoot?

The statement that I don't care what you bring is crystal clear. I don't care because it's your money. If you choose to bring a sub 30 caliber cartridge and the game you shoot cannot be located til morning, you're going to end up with chewed dismembered scraps. But that would be your choice to disregard what I suggested right?

How do you not get this when you read my post? How do you suggest that " I don't care" why would I be here and bother to discuss the cons of the sub 30 caliber cartridges?

You're right to an extent, if you deliberately choose other then .308 or larger, then I don't care, you were told by an experienced guy that has seen 1000's of big game shot, tracked and found or lost, or charged! when you decide to bring a little bore, then you pay your money and take your chances, why would I care, I'm getting paid either way. Even if I find it and kill it for you a week later.

This conversation is so clearly understood by me, you have never experienced this first hand have you? How much time have you spent with clients stressed beyond words that they have lost one of their trophies of a life time. How many evenings have you spent at camp watching everyone laughing and joking and telling the stories about the days hunts, while one hunter sitting quite after waiting a lifetime to hunt in Africa is depressed and worried that his trophy is lost or being ripped to pieces by Hyenas?

How about two days later when the same thing happens yet again! how much fun do you think it is for the PH that has to sit with all the clients and try to have a great time, while his client is sulking in the corner, because of the sadness he feels for losing a 55" kudu, a 26" impala, a 30" wildebeest, 18" blesbok? etc.

Not only the loss of the trophy but the 1500.00 bucks for a trophy fee as well! What does this do for his confidence to make the next shots on the remainder of the trip?

Yeah, what a great turn of events for the hunting trip of a life time eh, for this poor guy. You think I come here to type in lines of gibberish to humor people? This is my living, I take it serious, I'm not new to this game. You wanna ridicule me, go for it....... I have a level of confidence based on sound experience over decades of work in Africa. I get paid for my opinions and suggestions just like every other PH and Outfitter. My hunters ask me what to bring for every thing you can imagine from clothing to firearms, and bullets.

Why do you think they do that? What would they ask me that? Why do you think I have had over 400 hunters now in Africa? Because I have no idea what I'm doing or talking about? Maybe I should direct them to your Email or PM you can sort them out, you answer the questions and comfort them into knowing what to bring to stack the deck in favor of good success.

I'm curious as to what your source of information was? Is there some literary source that I'm missing, or is this just bush gossip/rumour mill? I can't imagine there's anybody still alive that would have first hand information about this, and what you've posted tends to run contrary to everything else I've read about the man.

For instance:
"Bell was a poacher" Bell operated largely in the abscence of law, not quite the same as operating contrary to the law. There was no law in the Karamojo at the time Bell was there. When he shifted operations to Ethiopa, it was with the permission of the military governor. When he went into the Lado, he had a permit from the Belgians, until King Leopold died, then again it was an abscence of law, with a flood of other hunters from the British colonies.

"he went deep into the bush with a wagon train " Bell writes of hunting on foot, with mules or oxen, by canoe, steam boat, and his last safari was motorized, but I never once came upon a reference to a "wagon train"

"Nothing was being tracked up, no trophies saved, no meat used, just shoot them and then let them run of to die of infection, or slowly bleeding to death."
Bell writes of constantly being followed by hoardes of natives wanting meat, and having a rule that no meat was to be touched until the ivory was chopped out. Were some carcasses wasted, and ivory left to rot out? Absolutely. Bell is candid about it. But if you're honest with yourself, you'll admit that this was still taking place in much more modern times.

So if Bell was a poacher, then so were many other. Selous, Neumann, Sutherland could all fall under your definition. Taylor was a self confessed poacher as was Ian Nychens.

If you have an alternate source of information regarding Bell, I would honestly like to know what it is so I can research it myself. At this point all we have to go on is Bell's own writings and the writings of those who knew him. And so far, unlike Taylor, Bell has never given us reason to doubt his written word.

I don�t think you can in any way equivocate being an ivory hunter in 1900 Africa with being a poacher as understood by today�s standards, but I do seem to recall Bell mentioning he had crossed a river to hunt in another country without permission. Hardly warrants the character assassination here. The OP never asked anyone's opinion, and beyond his use of the 6.5, Bell is irrelevant to the topic. But lets not stray from what is really important; can we just talk about JJ if he�s not too bashful.

ammo producer RWS define 6,5 swedish as : The 6.5 x 55 is definitely a fast cartridge with extended trajectory. Its internal precision is excellent and as a hunting cartridge it is optimally suitable for all medium-sized, but also for lighter red deer and wild boar.
Kudu, eland and oryx are not medium size game .
It's also alowed bullet (over 140gr) in my homeland Estonia for big game... but it's not the best option for it.
Have more than 10 years experience with swedish hunter coming over here to hunt mose or wildboar with 6,5 swedish...and fairily this is not the best option...it's work when you shoot from tower or stick but for driven hunt you need something "better and bigger"

Motorist,

Most kudu aren't any bigger than continental red deer, though further north they get bigger-bodied. They're also not as tough to kill as some other African animals either. I have seen bulls as heavy as 750 pounds (around 340 kilos) but most are 2/3 that weight.

Oryx are medium-sized game. A really huge bull will weigh 550 pounds (250 kilos) but most weigh 400-450 pounds.

Eland and moose are much bigger, bulls weighng 1000-1500 pounds, or even larger.

Hi John
I know what is kudu , have them two in my "collection" also oryx and some other African "creatures". Have some red deers as they dwells in our hunting lands. Number of mooses or wild boars havent even count And 6,5 swedish is not the optimal rifle to hunt them...at least not from driven hunt. Have over 25 years hunting experience on mooses, wild boars and red deers...from that my oppinio.
It's beautiful caliber for roe or similar size game even for longer distance...and can be used also for bigger "creatures" but...
In Estonia by the law you can also shoot bear with 6,5 swedish but will sapient hunter do it
Therefore understand JJHACk when he "do not support" 6,5 swedish for hunting in RSA.

I took this kudu bull with a 6mm 250 Ai. distance 432m. can a 6mm or 6,5 hunt African game? yes. do I recomend it? no, it is just a bit marginal, if you use it often and you feel comfortable with it, you will probably have no problems. for a foreighn hunter I allways recomend 270win as the min though I would prefer a 30 caliber.

LT DAN 432m...nice shot...I'm probably not ready for that .
20 or more years ago I hunt mooses with 22-250...head shot from 50-100m and down it was...but sometimes hands shake slightly and wounded animal was on the run...
we do not like wounded animals on the run...therefore use slightly bigger barrel than min.needed and part of your trouble are gone
At least this is my motto...
270 win is nice caliber have use it for wild boar and works perfectly

Motorist,

I wasn't stating any opinion on the 6.5mm's for African game, just pointing out there are vast differences in the size of gemsbok and eland, just as there are between red deer and moose.

Am I missing something here? Here's a guy with a stone cold dead, beautiful kudu killed with a 6.5 something....and he doesn't recommend it? Was it blind azz luck or what?

No, not luck. This kudu was shot from a shooting chair. I am trying my hand at longer shots. I had an army of trackers ready to do a follow up, on a stretch of land I know ver well. I was scouting for this specific bull, for the meat. What I am atempting to say is that allthough a 6mm or 6,5mm can kill larger plains game, and having seen it for myself many times, I beleive there are better suited calibers for african plains game. Again 30 caliber is my first choice, most of the game I take are with 308 and 300h&h.

The 6.5 x 55 Swede with 140 TSX or NP will kill plains game stone dead. It is an inherently accurate round. I have taken blesbok, kudu, gemsbok, and a score of springbok with it, Fun to shoot!

Well I have a bit of experience with both the 6.5 x 55 and 6.5 x 54. Two peas in a pod. Out side of one Moose with the swede, and two elk, most all of my other big game has been Deer and caribou size. I look at this stuff a little different, its your hunting trip shoot what you want and are most comfortable with! I would rather have a guy shoot a 6.5 x 55 or a 7 x 57 that he can shoot well than something in the order of one of the usual cartridges recommended such as the 300's they seem to be the ones most look at for a plains game safari. It makes no difference to me one way or the other, after all when you write the check for it, you get to decide what bullet launcher you are going to shoot or not.

Perhaps you guys remember the Swedish study of elk (moose) kills which is quoted here from time to time. In Sweden they keep statistics about range, number of shots, and the like. According to these studies, there is no difference in killing power against moose between the 6.5x55 and the .375 H&H.

That said, I have never shot any African plains game with anything lighter than a 180 grain .30 caliber bullet. They work fine so why change?

JJ would probably point out some differences that pertain to African plains game. For one thing, it's hard to track wounded plains animals. There isn't any snow for a blood trail and the animals are in herds--making finding the track of any particular one harder and making the wounded animal run harder to keep up with the herd.

Looonnnng shot!

Can't argue bigger is better, but is there really a difference between the .270 and the Swede?

Only on paper.

Interesting thread. Use enough gun seems to be good advice but it seems people do not agree on whats enough. I sometimes shoot whitetails at my farm with a .223 but would not travel somewhere else to do it. At my home place I have lots of time and knowledge of the places the deer use to travel. If I am going to spend the money to hunt in Africa then whatever the PH advises for the game one intends to hunt is what I would use. Even if I think a 6.5 is what I prefer. But as has been said repeatedly.... its your money.

yes I agree, but I have to draw the line somewhere. Hatari, I always consider the whole safari and blood trail and follow up and local game ranches that my frown upon smaller calibers. then I imagine this foreign hunter cursing me in silence because I recommended something- lets call it marginal. I want to play it safe when I am asked for my opinion on calibers.

a friend of mine is a pro game culler for European venison export. between two cullers they took 112 blue wildebeest in one night in 2011 with 25-06.

I agree..

and this, JJHack
does you no good at all..it's a comment you should have kept to yourself.

.....Let me guess. He doesn't recommend it though.

Says a lot, huh?

I does say a lot, When you bring a cartridge that your PH/outfitter suggests against, or prefers something bigger. This is not fishing where you attempt to catch the biggest fish on the lightest line for the challenge, we don't do catch and release.

You can attempt to twist this sentence any way you wish. However the rules are the same at every camp, and every location you will hunt. When you hit an animal you pay for it. If it's your choice to hunt with a smaller cartridge and game cannot be found even with the magic skills of our blood tracking dogs ( because no blood is leaking out) then that is your decision, not mine, not the business, not anyone but yours.

In an average season we take over well over 200 animals many times over 300-400. During that Average season we cannot find about 10-12 animals. Most are bad shots, or brush deflections. However no blood on the ground handicaps the follow up more then anything else. No blood on the ground or flora eliminates the single best option we have, the highly trained amazingly experienced Blood tracking dogs.

Our dogs will find 99% of the game shot in minutes. But no blood, and the dog is worthless to help.


So carry on with the ignorant view of this comment. It's a very misguided uneducated opinion. Again, I'm not in this for recreation and a couple trips over to have a hunting vacation. This is a business, I own, and I run. With 20 plus years now of experience it puts me at a huge advantage where these opinions are concerned. When you have blood or spoor tracked well in excess of a 1000 animals get back to me on what you would like to see your hunters use!

You pay the money, you bring whatever you like, but you also then have the responsibility for shooting with proper placement, with a weapon that can provide effective lethal force and appropriate locating evidence.

These are your choices entirely, not the PH, the outfitter, the trackers, it's all your choice, select wisely and utilize the recommendations of the professionals you're with carefully.

As a side note, 100% of the People working in Africa posting in this thread have recommended 30 caliber or larger........... coincidence?

I do the same thing you do, on a much smaller, part time scale, and I never consider myself an expert as you do. I understand the game completely. I just try to refrain from making arrogant azzed and often times unsubstantiated comments and opinions. Stating publicly that "I don't care what you bring, I get paid anyway", is bush league IMO.

Seemingly caliber questions and suggestions get the most interest on any of the threads. So...has anyone on the Fire ever killed a running eland with a 6.5 at 200+ yards with a 25 mph gusting cross wind?

Since this is the internet, I will say I have made that very shot, several times, once while staring down a mamba with the other eye.


But in real life, I find JJHack's logic very compelling. I have hunted Africa only twice, but have never taken a rifle smaller than a 30-06. Shooting big game in Africa is like going to a one-shot all-or-nothing turkey shoot with the following rules: First, it costs $500 just to sign up (your daily rate). Then there is a per shot entry fee equal to the price of the trophy fee (typically around a thousand bucks, but it can be way more) Don't hit the bullseye? No problem, you can enter again, but you will have to pay the entry fee again (or maybe double the entry fee, depending on how quota works.) Surely all of us would want to put the odds in our favor as much as possible when taking a shot on terms like that. The key is that in a typically turkey shoot, accuracy is the sine qua non. In Africa, the bullseye is successful recovery.

On the last day of my most recent hunt, we were looking for kudu in thick cover, and I had the chance to take the klipspringer shown below, which might have weighed 30#, soaking wet. Surely a .22 Hornet could kill it. Did it bother me to drill it with my .338 Magnum? Not in the least--look at the cover behind me and ask if you are willing to make a $1000 on recovering that little guy.

I will ask him

I hate pissing contests on this forum as I'd like to think those of us who frequent here are a cut above the great unwashed. That said, there is a passage in one of Craig Boddington's books regarding his missed opportunity and what was in his words, the largerst kudu he'd ever seen (to date, Craig has been on over 105 Safaris, talk about SUCKING! ). Anyhow, he was carrying an 06' that day and this kudu would only give him fleeting glances as he flitted through the jess. Finally at last light the kudu gave him enough time to make the shot, but the only trouble was all he had was a Texas Heart Shot. Craig felt the 06 was in that instance "not enough gun" (and I agree) and passed on the shot. He goes on to say had he been carrying his trusty 375, that sixty plus incher would be adorning his bulkhead today. There's a lesson in there somewhere. My personal minimum when there are high dollar trophy fees involved. starts with the 300s and a premium bullet. jorge

Jorge,

I've read that very passage from Craig a number of times, and it doesn't prove anything one way or another--since he didn't shoot.

I've had considerable experience with various bullets in the .30-06 and .375, and there isn't much difference in penetration with bullets of the same construction and sectional density. Finn Aagaard demonstrated this years ago in an article where he shot a bunch of bullets from .30 to .375 (as I recall) into wet paper. He also said the tests mirrored what he'd seen on big game.

This has also been my experience with various bullets from .30 to .375, both in test media and game. I wouldn't hesitate to take a "raking" shot on a kudu, for instance, with either a 200-grain Nosler Partition or 165-180 grain TSX from a .30-06--and wouldn't expect any vast difference in penetration from a 300-grain Nosler Partition or 270-grain TSX from a the .375.

Of course the .375 bullets would make a bigger hole, which may not may not make a difference, especially toward the far, narrow end of the wound channel. But penetration wouldn't be a problem with the right .30 caliber bullet.

It is almost unnatural how the 30-06 mirrors the 375 H&H. They are both old rounds that time has been kind to; they have relatively the same trajectory path; they kill about as well as anything else in their class; they are very common and found everywhere; most hunters trust them without fail; almost every hunter has owned one or the other...or both; they're usually found as pretty much Classic style rifles....and on and on.

I agree with everything you say in your post John, but I asked Craig specifically on this incident and he was quite specific in that he did not feel the 06 would have penetrated like the 375. I love my 06s, but why bother taking one to Africa when I have a variety of 300s to choose from?

This is to no one in particular but I found this thread very interesting due to the experience represented here. I did not find JJH's comments incinderary as it's difficult to fully communicate with words only--he was trying to make and emphasize a point.

I'm by no means an expert having been to Africa for hunting only once but it seems to me it boils down to percentages which a lot of things in life do. The point seems to be not what can a particular cartridge do but can it do it every time (or you pick your number).

I've made my way up the cartridge latter and now I'm on my way down again for hunting in NA but I would always listen to the voice of experience.

Jorge, do you feel a 300 mag would have penetrated significantly more than a 30-06?
I might also point out that Boddington's opinions have changed over the years, on elk rifles in particular.

Jorge,

I've shot quite a few big game animals with bullets of the same designed from both the .30-06 and .375. The bullets I have the most experience with in each cartridge are the 200-grain Nosler Partition in the .30-06 and the 300-grain Partition in the .375. If there's any difference in how deeply they penetrate I can't see it--except to perhaps give a slight edge to the 200 Partition.

I really can't say. All I can go on is my own limited experience and what knowledgeable guys like Craig and Mule Deer tell us and all I can tell you is there is a noticeable difference in what I have observed between an 06 and a 300 Weatherby. As to John's comment on the penetration of a 200gr 06 v a 300gr 375, all I can say is if John says so, it's good enough for me.

I'm going to see Craig in a few months and I'll make it a point to bring up this very topic and specifically his kudu story. j

I have never took a texas heart shot, so I cant say for certain either. However, I would suspect a 30-06 would penetrate deeper given like bullets and range, but the 300 would do more damage.

In penetration test done by Randy Garrett of Garrett Cartridges,the 300 grain Nosler Protected Point for the 45-70 at 2150 fps out penetrated the 300 grain Nosler out of the .375 H&H Magnum.


Jayco

He does not recommend it. he said to keep in mind all the animals that are taken in a cull for venison, are ALL head shots. he said for a foreign hunter that is most probably on a time limit, he would recommend nothing less than 30 caliber for an across the board plains game safari. with perfect shot placement the 6,5 mm would be enough most of the time. the question thus is are you satisfied with "... most of the time". if you are, then use the 6,5 for your safari. personally I love the 6mm's and the 6,5's, but again for a general plains game hunt with various animals available at short and long distances, I simply think there are better choices. I cant put it any simpler than this

The Garrett "tests" were let's just say optimized for the 45/70 and the fact two different bullts were used pretty much tells it all. At 2150 fps, what weight bullet was he using?

I don't see how the test could be optimized for the 45-70 when both the 45-70 and .375 H&H were shot into wet newsprint both using a 300 grain Nosler Partition,one a FP made for the 45-70 and the other,factory .375 H&H ammunition.

You might e-mail Randy and ask him about his test although he just sold Garrett Cartridges to Ashley Emerson.

Jayco

Your Sig line is hilarious.

If a 200 grain 30-06 and a 300 grain .375 will penetrate about equally, it would not surprise me if a similarly constructed 160 grain 6.5 would penetrate equally as well. The sectional density is about the same.

In the old days they didn't have premium bullet construction so they made up for it with moderate velocities to hold bullets together. The 160 grain bullet in the 6.5x54 and the 220 grain bullet in the 30-06 both went about 2400 fps and the muzzle and the .375 was only a shade faster.

I'm not at all convinced that the discussion based solely on penetration is the only consideration. Even if both cause the death of the animal, the one that bleeds you will find easily the one without a blood trail us up for grabs between the hunter and every starving predator in the bush.

Do your hunters ever shoot something that just falls over dead?

What fun is that?

Though there is no scientific evidence to back it, African game just seems tougher to put down. Not every time, there are plenty of bang flops, but then there are relatively good shots that not only don't anchor the animal, but they haul butt towards parts unknown and a long tracking job starts.

That then feeds the obsession for bigger guns and tougher bullets.

One of these days we are going to get you to part with some of that west Texas oil money you've been hoarding and check it out in person.

Ha! I'll go with you next time, how's that? I'm really, really wanting to go, no kdding.

I'll hold you to you word!!!!

I'm just being curious: when two calibers, like the 06 and the 375 both show similar results in penetration, and to a very large extent same for the 9.3, why is it then that the 375 is still considered the entry level caliber for DG hunting in most African countries?

Precisely, there's a message there....

Because the people that come from where the 06 was made did not make the rules, but the people who came from where the H & H was made did?

As mentioned, African game doe seem to sell themselves more dearly than something that has been eating from the corner of your crop for the last 5 years. Is bigger better? Probably. Does that mean a smaller one will not do the job? Doubtful. We could also pose if it would be more effective to hunt buffalo with something that has a lanyard, and the answer would be yes, but that doesn�t necessarily make it our first choice.

The British did not set the minimum cartridge size for DG

WAG because I have never been to Africa...(risky post

...but, could it be more frontal area and bullet weight to deal with bigger animals,and heavier bones?

And that jackets can be correspondingly thicker, heavier,in larger bores than smaller one's? All adding up to wound channels of larger size through vitals,and ability to break those heavy bones more effectively?

The debate on this issue is really interesting and thanks for all taking part.

A hunter wounded a kudu and in those days I was much more mobile than he so ran after the kudu and had to shoot it twice with an old 303. I still remember the surprize when it did not fall down at the first shot as they always do when hit by the 375.

Does someone know the answer as I just thought about larger bullet weight and caliber being the reason why 375 is minimum DG caliber?

Pieter do you remember the Latino fella that was going blind? He shot a kudu with the 7mm weatherby he had. It bolted for parts unknown. I hit with a follow up shot going straight away with my 375. It was on a dead run. That bull went end over end twice in a cloud of dust. I think you were with me during that group. I know you were with his blesbok and that hartebeest

Anyway my big fear was the horns were going to be broken off the way it did that 720 degrees of rotation. Seeing an animal the size of a big mature kudu bull roll that way was a sight I'll never forget. Yeah the 375 is a huge difference over anything smaller and a massive level of power over anything In 30 caliber 8mm or even 338

Sorry Jim I forgot to answer. Yes I was with that group hunting with someone else, but was there with his blesbok and hartebeest.

It's "fun" to read that penetration is all we need from caliber and bullet . Take full metal jacket and allways have "good" penetration .
From my own experience in Africa:
Oryx from 300m lungs shot fell down but arise again and went 400m before was finally down...
Blue wildebeest from 150m shot went 5 inch behind front leg and slightly up...it "cost" 3 hours to find it and 2 extra shots to put it down
Both cases caliber was 9,3x64 what is equal to 375...
Therefore if you play with your own money, and that you do in Africa, take proper gun and proper ammo Do not play game what is the minimum caliber what take animal down...it might cost you lot of money

Gents: In rereference to the discussion here on the penetration virtues of the 06 v the 375, I related a passage from one of Craig Boddington's books where he states he passed up a raking shot on a big kudu because he was carrying an 06 and not his usual 375.
Our own Mule Deer opines the 06 pentrates just as much as the 375, so I asked Craig for some clarification and he is complete agreement with John, especially in light of today's modern bullets. He does give me a bit of slack as he states the 375 does hit a lot harder, but kudus are regarded as relatively soft targets.

He must not use Partitions and they've been around for a long time.

Oh please, Craig I'm sure has used more Partitions than you have socks. You should do yourself a favor and look at the penetration tests on all bullets over on AR. Partitions were not anywhere near the top

I won't waste my time.

The NP will penetrate just as well and sometimes better than the TSX in 30/200s, on animals.

Probably because its easier to regulate a minimum caliber than it is to regulate a minimum bullet construction.

That doesn't mean a smaller gun with a good bullet won't work, it just means the .375 is the smallest caliber that will work with any bullet.

There is this phrase, "all else being equal". Well, a 30-06 will do a great job on plains game. Also, with "all else being equal", the 375 will create a wider wound channel and it dumps energy, quickly, into the critter because of its greater frontal area. The 375 does have more power but it is much more difficult to place shots with as precisely as a "lesser" round.

Monolithic bullets have changed the calculus. A bullet thru the heart causes death whether it is a 6.5 or a .416. Too, monolithic bullets all penetrate more deeply. So how much is enough?

I have had great results with the 270 and monolithic or bonded bullets. I usually put my shots where I wish. This is so because I hunt a lot and it is not a big deal if I pass a shot. Also, I am very familiar with my 270.

However, for the guy that can shoot it as well as I can shoot my 270, I believe the very best trophy hunter's cartridge is the 300Wby. Sadly, not many can.

Gentleman,
It all comes down to "can it be done?" Yes. Do we recommend it. No.
I returned yesterday from a hunt, which I am sure the report will surface on 24hr soon, but I was just reminded again that had the gentleman even taken the shot with a .30 cal, we would have had a hard time finding his Zebra. He took the Zebra with a .375 loaded with 270gr TSX. Shot a little bit far back, but the bullet was big enough to give my dog something to work with. He went about a mile. Shoot what you can handle.

Take Care,
Marius