Any one have thoughts on using the 30-06 and 180 Ballistic Silvertip on African plains game up to kudu?

I'm planning a trip for next year and will either take my 30-06 or 300 H&H.

If the 06, my research has me planning to use a barnes 165g TSX. Think that will be fine up to Eland, but don't expect to go bigger than Kudu.

the 165 tsx works just fine. Read JJHack's site.

I am aware of how good the TSX is...but all I can find around here is loaded with the B/T...that's the question....if I could get TSX's or Accubonds, no question.....

There are better choices. Why risk it?

Yep...good old Rem Core Lokt are better than Ballistic Silvertips...

No they're not, by a long shot. Nosler beefed up the 180 Ballistic Tip a few years ago with the same ulra-heavy jacket they used for the 200-grain Ballistic Tip--and I put one of those in the "front shoulder" of a quartering-on bull gemsbok on the Namibia safari you and I made in 1999. The trackers found the expanded bullet under the skin of the rump on the other side.

The heavy-jacket Ballistic Tips act similar to Partitions.

I shot through a Northern BC Moose with a 180 Ballistic Tip.Its not going to bounce off a kudu.

Nope.

People kept wanting to shoot elk with 'em, so Nosler obliged.

Good to know...

So, is that where the heavier jacket starts--with the 180-gr 30 cal?

Where was I all that time?

I thought you two were shooting their version of the X bullet...cant even remember what they called those...

Pretty sure the 168's are mucho beefy-o too.

The 180gn .338 is pretty thick.

Tom,

Eileen was shooting 165-grain Fail Safes from her .30-06. I was shooting 200 Ballistic Tips and 250 Partitions from my .338.

Ever hear of buying ammo online? You can have Nosler custom load whatever you want for your 30-06, or any other caliber, and ship them to you for a reasonable total cost. Midway, plenty of other places to purchase quality ammo if you don't want to shoot ballistic tips. Personally, I would not hunt in Africa with them, and I say that having shot something over 60 animals in Africa ranging from grysbok to elephants. You're going a long way and spending a lot of money. Don't scrimp on the quality of bullets you shoot at game. Something like a Nosler Partition, TSX, or even Accubond is much better choice. Heck, even a Remington Core-Lokt is a much better choice.

George,

Nosler varies the jacket thickness of Ballistic Tips according to how people tend to use them. The smallest ultra-heavy jacket model I know of is the 120 7mm, and the 150 7mm is pretty stout as well. (Again, people kept shooting elk with it.)

But all the "hunting" Ballistic Tips made today are a lot tougher than the originals were, whether due to harder cores, thicker jackets or both. I shot a big Montana whitetail doe a couple of years ago with a 100-grain BT from the .257 Roberts, range about 50 yards. She was quartering toward me and the bullet broke the big shoulder joint and made a mess of the heart and lungs before ending up under the hide at the rear of the rib cage. I've seen Partitions that did essentially the same thing.

At the other end of the spectrum, a couple of Ballistic Tips that were only around a year or two but really worked well were the 250-grain 9.3mm and 260-grain .375. In 2002 watched my hunting partner use my Ruger No. 1 .375 H&H use the 260 to break both the base of both scapulas on a South African gemsbok--and exit. That took some doing, as gemsbok hide is very tough and thick over the shoulders, and the bull weighed close to 550 pounds on the ranch's scales. Both of those bullets, however, were soon turned into some of the first AccuBonds, and the BT version discontinued.

I would not recommend bringing Ballistic Tips for your .30/06 on a PG safari. There are much better choices.

For instance, TSX, TTSX, A-Frame, Oryx, Accubond, and Scirroco.

On a 2011 cat hunt in Zim, I used a .30/06 with Federal factory loaded 180 grain TSX's to shoot many bait animals. The load worked perfectly on everything and is my preference for the .30/06 in Africa. The 165 grain TSX in .30/06 worked well for a friend who returned from a Namibian PG hunt.

Safaris are expensive. Ammunition is cheap by comparison. Use a proven premium big game load instead of something that most view as marginal.

Have anyone used the 30 cal 150gr version?

Not deviating too far...

MD, is there any practical difference between the 180AB and the 180BT in cal. 308?

The only other cal better than the 30-06 in Africa is the 375. The only cal better than the 375 in Africa is the 30-06. 165 gr and 180 gr for the 06 work very well.

My 06 seems to like Highlands and shoots it very well.

tomk,

Not much difference between the heavy-jacket Ballistic Tips and AccuBonds, if any. In fact I've shot Partitions and heavy-jacket Ballistic Tips of the same weight into dry newspaper (on e of the toughest bullet tests there is) and penetration and expansion were very similar.

One of my friends who's used the .338 Ballistic Tip a LOT since it came out in the early 1990's once called it "a Barnes X with a little bit of lead in the nose." That's a pretty fair comparison, from what I've seen in sectioning, media-testing and shooting game with heavy-jacket BT's.

Thanks John

Harry Selby used a 30-06 with original Winchester Silvertips in 180gr weight with great results so I'm sure that todays 180gr Ballistic Silvertips will work even better.

I remember now...thats the safari where I had a pinched nerve and took a schittload of percocets....

lottsa excuses fer gittin' old and fergetful....just sayin'...

maddog

A mind is a terrible thing to waste....


But Ive only wasted one!

Thanks John. Just glanced at the Nosler website and did not see any BTs bigger than .323 listed.

??

George, I think all the bigger Ballistic Tips have become Accubonds now.

The 200-grain .338 is now a Ballistic Silvertip, so is listed on the website under Combined Technology bullets. All the larger than .338 caliber BT's have all become Accubonds.

Yep, thanks guys see that now. I'm looking for something different for my 350 RM after trying to get it to like the B 225-gr TSX with a couple of different powders. So far no can do.

Maybe the 225-gr AccB.

I have taken lots of game in Afric with 30/06 and 180 Nosler Partitions...no reason your ammo won't work. I have taken Elk, Kudu, Gemsbok, Hartebeest...etc. It worked on them and more.
Go git em!

One of the classic combos for plains game!

If Elmer Keith had just taken a .30-06 with 180 Partitions in 1958 when he made his first safari, instead of a .333 OKH with POS 300-grain Kynoch soft-points, he would never have written than plains game is "as tough as an old gum boot." And we would have been spared generations of the same sort of BS.

Thanks, I had a good chuckle.

You say that as if it would have been a good thing!

Only to be started again by the use of Ballistic Tips! (just kidding MD, but I couldn't resist and kynochs ARE crap!)

You can add me to the list of 30-06 / 180 Partitions used on zebra, kudu and eland flawlessly. Should be easy to find that load from a factory. I know Federal rolls them up...
BTW: thanks again JB for bringing me up to speed on the newer BT's. I've been thinking they were not much more than deer killers ( if that)...

J B How about THE 165 gr BT 30-06 Bullet jacket thickness?
Would the Federal Factory 30-06 165 gr. Nosler BT ammo
work for game up to ELK?

I can tell you that current production 150 grain Balistic Tips out of a 30-06 work great on feral hogs and will go completely through a 6x6 treated cresote post.

I can not imagine that a decently hit elk would stand a chance.

A couple of years ago one of my buddies went to Africa for plains game with his .300 Win mag. I gave him a few boxes of ammo for the trip, including both 180 gr Partitions & 180 gr Ballistic Tips.

He and his PH were both more impressed with the quick/instant kills from the 180 Ballistic Tips.

FWIW, Guy

Id much rather use a 180 BT than a 180 Partition.

Thanks for posting all the good info on this thread ref the BT. Last time I shot them was in the early 90's out of a 300 Win Mag. Much akin to firing grenades at game. More meat wasted than put in the freezer. Perhaps I'll give them a go again. Thanks.

Yes, I loaded some 165 B-Tips for a buddy and his .300 Win mag back in the early 1990's. Deer carnage. Filled tags, but dang...

The current B-Tips are much changed from those days, twenty years ago.

Guy

Have to agree. I am no fan of a 180gr bullet out of the .30-06. Drops too much for my liking, as I don't think it has the necessary powder capacity to shoot it flat enough. If you know your rifle with 180's, then by all means go with it. All of my rifles are set up to not needing to aim off the animal whether I am shooting 100-350 yds. The 165's or even monolithic solid 150's will turn the .30-06 into a sweet rig.
IMO

Good to hear. It still kills me to refer to the 90's as "twenty years ago," makes me feel old. I had some 150's, new generation, and stoked them to 59 grs of IMR 4350 I believe. Don't hold me to that. The ripped along a wee bit over 3K and grouped really well. Flatten deer and black bear like the hammer of Thor.

Believe me, I understand. Until I look in the mirror and see the gray hair, I sometimes think that I never really left the 1980's.

Ah well...

I have been wondering about the 150 gr ttsx bullets as I have recovered only one 165 gr so far. It went through both humorus of a big gemsbok and was found cutting the off side skin without exiting. It is hard to change down when the 165 wworks so well. The 150 would give a slightly flatter trajectory. Do you have experience with the 150 monolithics?
Randy

Me too! It made my day.

Nice Thanks for your post Doc.Guess everyone is too cool to answer my question.

Nothing on APG but I do have some of those old blue coated things(XLC's) in 150 gr and they are incredibly accurate out of my No.1 RSI with IMR 4064. Absolutely the hammer of Thor on WT deer and black bear. I recovered exactly one because I dug it out of the bank after being shot angling through a fat Michigan whitey. Looked purdy too.

At this point I might comment than my wife Eileen used a .308 Winchester and 150-grain Nosler E-Tips on her last safari, taking game up to a big zebra with no problems. The list also included a big bushbuck standing behind a prickly pear. The bullet expanded on the prickly pear but still penetrated plenty on the facing-on bushbuck.

I wouldn't hesitate to use a similar load on any animal under 1000 pounds.

Im mostly hunting whitetail and black bear so I will probably go for a 150 gr year. Or I should probably just go with 140gr 7x57 and leave the 06 with the 165 gr. 06 is pretty much over kill for deer anyways.
Thanks for the input.

I like heavy for caliber bullets, and I don't think you can have too much gun. I've shot black bears with .375 H&H and .458 Lott. As far as the .30-06 Springfield, I think the 180 grain bullet is perfect, versatile, and particularly suited for tough game like African antelope. It will be ideal for wildebeest, kudu, oryx, and zebra. I favor more controlled expansion than a ballistic tip, however. Partition, A-Frame, TSX, even a Scirocco would be a reasonable choice.

The caveat with the OP was 'plains game UP TO KUDU' say 500 lbs. Yes some get bigger...

As Kudu aren't the toughest antelope out there, a 180 ST would be perfect.

As to trajectory:

Doesn't the 180 from an '06 approximate a 270/300grainer from a .375H&H. That is one of the reasons both work so well for North American hunters in Africa as the trajectorys match and are familiar to a lot of riflemen.

MSK07,

Apparently you've never shot anything with the recent 180 Ballistic Tips. You would find they ARE controlled-expansion, since the jacket is about 2/3 of the bullet.

I've shot quite a few animals up to 550 pounds with the heavy-jacketed 180-grain .30 and 200-grain.338 Ballistic Tip, both in Africa and North America. The ONLY bullet recovered was one mentioned earlier in this thread. It was a .338 that hit a quartering-on gemsbok bull at about 150-175 yards, dropping the bull instantly--and was recovered from under the hide of the rump on the opposite side.

I've just worked up a load with the 180 Combined Tech Ballistic Tip for my 308. Should work great at 308 velocities. Extremely accurate. Might be my load for sheep hunting this yaer. With a turret I'm not worried about it not being flat enough.

I would be afraid of the 180 BT being too tough at 308 velocity levels, but that's just me.

The rear end of the heavy-jacket Ballistic Tips is tough, not the front end. They open up very well even at moderate velocity, due to the thin jacket around the big hollow-point under the tip.

I'm sure they would open up just fine, I just think a 308 might be better served with a 150gr BT. I believe the lighter bullet might kill a bit more decisively on the size game we are talking about here(small cow elk in size).

John,
Can you list for us all the heavier-jacketed BT's?

I don't know all of them, partly because Nosler has been adding to them over the past few years. You'd be better off asking them.

I don't think, however, the 150 .30 is one. The 165 and 168 .30's are, and are probably what I'd use in a .308 on game larger than deer.

John, its been my experience that even the more lightly constructed BT's are still pretty darn stout. I have no doubt a 150 BT out of a .308 Winchester would work great.

Maybe he did some bad shooting but still wrote a good story anyway.

He didn't do much bad shooting on the safari. He used a bad bullet, when much better ones were available.

I am one of Elmer Keith's biggest fans. I own all his books, plus the 2-volume collection of his Guns & Ammo columns. I also still have the letter he wrote to me in 1977, concerning a question I had about the .338-06.

But Keith apparently never really grasped the concept of the Nosler Partition, and his book SAFARI (written after one safari) is a long litany about the toughness of all African game and the possible reasons for that toughness--when the Kynoch softs he used sometimes didn't exit a Thompson gazelle. He ended up using solids in his .333 just because the Kynochs weren't worth a damn.

That almost willful blindness to the advantages of well-constructed bullets was Keith's one real fault as a gun writer.

BWalker,

I have considerable experience with the 150 Ballistic Tip, especially from the .308. It is indeed pretty stout (I once shot lengthwise through a pronghorn buck with one) but have also seen one fail to exit a 3-year-old mule deer buck's chest when the bullet hit the shoulder knuckle--on a 300-yard shot from a .308.

Why would somebody choose the 150 BT for 500-pound plains game from a .308, when the heavier BT's penetrate so much deeper--and the 165/168's shoot just about as flat?

Thanks, John. How'd you know I do the bulk of my hunting with a .308?

Because I am of the opinion that a 150 out of a 308 might kill a bit quicker, yet still have adequate penetration. No warts on the 165/168 BT's out if a 308 either, just a preference thing.

With that said; What do you and Mule Deer think about the .25 cal 85 gr BT for use on deer out of a .250-3000? I have a '24 vintage M99 takedown that has the slower twist and is at it's best with slugs lighter (read as shorter) that 100gr bullets.

Brinky72, I don't know about the 85 grainer, but the 115 gr Ballistic Tip did an outstanding job for me on mule deer & pronghorn this past fall. Used a .25-06 and couldn't have asked for better bullet performance.

But - have never used the 85 gr version.

Guy

The 150gr BT killed pretty quick at 300 saum velocities for me last fall on two mature southern 8 pts. Both less than 50 yards. One thru both shoulders with exit and the other on the point of one shoulder quartering to me with no exit. Neither buck took a step, but i also doubt either of them were scaring 200lbs either

My big concern is getting something to stabilize well in the ol girl as she is a slow twist (12" or 14" can't remember). I'm hoping they will perform at 250 velocities like the 87 gr Speer Hot Cors'. Speer bullets can be a PITA to find during good times let alone now.

BWalker,

I am sure the 150 Ballistic Tip would kill "a bit quicker," the penetration is another question.

At this point I might ask how much experience you have in hunting African plains game.

I haveshot those out of a 25-06 and they are bombs. id look at a 100gr flat base of some sort.

I am sure they would to.
I haven't shot any African plains game, but have shot a variety of NA game in the size range in question. Nothing magic in regards to African game, at least thats the opinion of my father, who killed a pile of it with using a 270 extensively.

Any body using the Nosler 140 gr. BT in a 270 WBY?
How they do?
AMRA

BWalker,

I have killed quite a bit of African plains game with cartridges even smaller than the .270, from the .22-250 to the 7x57, and have used the 7x57 on bigger game such as wildebeest and kudu. In 2007 I took part on a month-long cull hunt, and along with the animals I took (ranging from springbok to my biggest kudu) the guys I hunted with personally took another 59 animals while I was right there with them, up to eland. And that's only one of several safaris, all but one longer than the typical 7-10 days plains game hunt.

The 150-grain Ballistic Tip from a .308 would work fine on any of the plains game, as long as the shot was reasonably broadside and avoided the big should joint. I've seen quite a few of the tougher species killed neatly with similar bullets, including the Sierra GameKing, Hornady Interlock and yes, 150-grain Ballistic Tips. But all that shooting took place in open country.

Around 3/4 of African plains game hunting takes place in what's called "bushveld," thornbush and trees where 90% of the shots are inside 100 yards. They're also likely to be at quartering animals, where the correct placement is in the big shoulder joint or somewhere in the rear of the ribs.

Even if the animal's broadside, a shot into the ribs isn't always possible, due to the brush--and doesn't kill as quickly on many African animals anyway, because their vitals are further forward than on deer or elk. The shot SHOULD be placed in the shoulder.

Plus, even aside from eland the larger plains game animals don't weigh only 500 pounds. My largest kudu weighed around 750, and zebras can easily be that large. Supposedly gemsbok weigh less than 500, but my largest weighed 550 on the ranch's scales, and gemsbok not only have relatively heavy shoulder bones for their size, but skin up to an inch thick on their front quarters and neck.

I have seen all these animals killed with the .308 and even smaller rounds, but have also seen tougheror bigger bullets than the 150 Ballistic Tip break up on the shoulder joint, or fail to penetrate both lungs on broadside shots. One of my companioons on that month-long cull hunt shot a zebra with his .325 WSM and the 220-grain Power Point factory load. The shot hit behind the heavy shoulder bones, in the meat of the shoulder, but the bullet only penetrated one lung. No, the bullet didn't break up, it just expanded too widely to penetrate far. It resulted in a long chase--and the PH finally forbidding the guy to use the .325 anymore, and switch to the .375 he'd brought for buffalo.

The .308 will work fine on that sort of game even in bushveld using 150-grain bullets, but they had better pentrate deeper than a 150-grain Ballistic Tip. My wife killed a bunch of game on our safari in 2008, including a very big zebra stallion, with the .308 and 150-grain Nosler E-Tips, a monolithic that penetrates quite deeply, just like the Barnes TSX and Hornady GMX. But there certainly wasn't an excess of penetration, even then.

If you're absolutely sure a 150-grain Ballistic Tip would be better than a 168 or 180 BT from the .308, why then you should use it if you ever go on safari. But despite how much I like that load for pronghorn, deer and caribou in North America, I would want a bullet that penetrates deeper for a plains game hunt. Plus, there's no great advantage in the 150's trjectory, even if some of the country is open. Sight a 150, 168 or 180 Ballistic Tip in at 200 yards at typical .308 velocities, and the difference in drop at 400 is around 3-4 inches. Look it up.

Sound rational, John.

John,

Seems there is a moving dynamic between bullet construction, bullet performance and velocity. Faster may not always be better.

The old standard of big bullets at 2,400 fps seems to have stood the test of time on large stuff. Maybe that's why the '06 and similar, using heavy for caliber bullets at more modest velocities, seem to get the job done time and time again on PG and lighter animals.

Maybe those hunters of old knew something modern hunters are learning.

Our long range hunting rifles benefit from hi vel, high B.C. projectiles. If most shots on African PG are at moderate ranges, all that extra oomph may be wasted, or at worse, a hindrance, bullet selection notwithstanding.

DF

DF,

I do know that cup-and-core bullets are still quite popular in Africa among local hunters, partly because both bullets and ammo tend to be MUCH more expensive over there. A PH friend of mine also owns a sporting goods store in Kimberley, South Africa, and when I was last in there in 2007, there were a PILE of Sierra bullets for sale, with a low percentage of Nosler Partitions and some South African premiums. The Sierras were priced about like Partitions are over here, and the Partitions were at least twice as much. The Sierras were mostly .270 and up, and almost universally in heavier weights, including 220-grain .30's and 250-grain .338's. The bullets under .270 were mostly .224's and 6mm's, which work fine for culling smaller animals such as springbok and impala.

Another South African PH buddy is fond of the 150-grain Hornady Interlock in his .270, for both culling medium-sized animals from warthog to hartebeest, and for backing up clients after the same range of animals. But on anything bigger he carries his .375 H&H--often loaded with 300-grain Sierras.

Another uses a 7x57 for that sort of work, with a local brand of ammo loaded with a 170-grain roundnose. He never had to use it when I was there, but a few weeks ago a local friend here in Montana hunted with him, using a 7mm Remington Magnum with 160-grain Nosler Partitions. I haven't talked to my friend yet but he sent me a condensation of the hunt: The 7mm Magnum worked great on his first two animals, a kudu and blue wildebeest, but then the scope went haywire. (I haven't asked the brand yet, but suspect it was a variable!) He ended up using the PH's 7x57 on the rest of his animals. I dunno what they were yet, but they all died pronto!

Well stated DF!! I've always leaned this way after of course, with mishaps of pushing bullets to fast and having them fail! There's a bunch of folks on the board that have killed more animals than I but I still have some hands on experience that says go heavy and keep it modest. IE heavy for bore/cal and keep the speed reasonable.

Ingwe should be along in a bit to take a bow and claim full credit for that pearl of wisdom...

DF

Funny, someone should PM him and let him know folks are speaking of the ol 7 Mauser. It's one caliber I always wanted but never bought. Perhaps because I always wanted it in a purdy Mauser bolt or a No.1 both of which seem hard to come by and have eluded me. The 7X57 is the grand daddy of all things good though.
I don't mind the bigger faster crowd, it has it's place and leads to more development in all arena's and creates interest in new toys. All of which is good for the sport. Myself, I have become quite comfy with my '06's running 180's-220's at a rather pedestrian pace. My fav happens to be 200 partitions fed by RL 22 out of my No.1 RSI. Second place is a tie with 220 and 180 RN slugs with either RL22 or a variant of 4831. I may be talked into a '06 AI project though, just for the whole case life aspect

Bought my first 7x57 in 1974, and have owned and hunted with at least a dozen since. In Africa have taken animals from springbok to kudu and wildebeest, and in North America from pronghorn to bull moose. Ranges have been out to around 375 yards, and the bullets included Barnes TSX's, Hornady Interlocks, Norma Oryxes, North Forks, Nosler Ballistic Tips and Partitions, Sierra GameKings and others I've probably forgotten. It works.

It's that kind of talk that will get me into hot water with the Misses....

Well, basically all that kind of talk does is prove a lot of cartridges will work when pointed correctly.

But the 7x57 is indeed just a slightly smaller (and lighter recoiling) version of the .30-06!

But significantly more skookum....

Remember when every article about the .222 said it was a miniature .30-06? Well, I did some geometric comparisons a few years ago, and found the .222 most closely matched a scaled-down 7x57.

Dunno what that proves, but there it is!

I bought my first 7x57 in 85 and like an idiot rebarrelled it to 308. I have since rectified that oversight by another purchase. Since I only use the 7x57 on whitetail I have settled on 140 gr bullets although the heavies shoot very well in it. It has been suggested to me that I rebarrel the 308 back, but it shoots between .1 and .3 inches depending on my state of mind. Worse grup ever was 1.25 inches on a cold January day. I cannot think of changing anything on that rifle.

My 30-06 was fed 165gr tsx for Africa and did well.

Ahhh, just knew Ingwe would come through...

Baiting him with a 7x57 is not too unlike throwing a piece of raw meat to a junk yard dog...

DF

medicman,

In my experience, it's hard to see any difference in field performance between the 7x57 and .308, though some people claim they can.

Just a matter of taste. The .308 is proven in the game fields and without a doubt in the fields of battle. IMHO the 7X57 is a wee bit more nostalgic and is oober cool to me because of it. The sad thing is after reading this thread is I went to the Mauser web page and couldn't find a new production model readily chambered in 7x57. Plenty of 7x64, 8x68S, 6.5X57 (which is damn tempting) but no original 7

Yeah, that sucks.

.308 factory ammo and brass are also a lot more available (at least during normal times) than 7x57, the big reason I have two .308's and only one 7x57. (Of course, the 7x57 is a perfect custom rifle, but one of the .308's is a Merkel single-shot with great wood, which ain't bad either!)

Exactly correct,but we can say the same thing about about the .260,6.5x55,.270,7mm-08,and .308. Plus about another 20 cartridges that are in the same class.

Right now I've decided the perfect deer gun would be a Merkel or Blaser single shot in 7x57R. Next week I'll be smitten by something else.

Well I think it means that a good design is a good design.

Recalling where these two cartridges originated,it is no surprise the 30/06 and 7x57 ended up being pretty comparable.After all it was the 7x57 that kicked American butt,and we invented the 30/06 to provide our forces with something comparable,but in 30 caliber.Kicking up the proportions a bit accomplished that,I think,but no doubt the 7x57 is the bee's knee's in a light recoiling cartridge for BG,as people have proved for over 100 years.

I recall that JOC, his wife Eleanor, and Fred Huntington all went to Africa together with Eleanor using a 7x57,JOC a 7 REM Mag,and Huntington a 280 Remington.JOC reported there was not much difference between the three cartridges that he could see, and Eleanor killed 15 head of game with 17 shots or something like that.

Being a 7mag fan this breaks my heart but things are what they are...and can't be ignored.

Seems when Eleanor wanted a BIG GUN to use on tiger,lion,and elephant they had Len Brownell build her a 30/06 which she used on those animals as well,even killing a tiger before it took a bite out of a beater.

Hate to break out the history books to illustrate there ain't much difference between these various cartridges but truth of the matter is that if you are shooting something between 270 and 30 caliber on a 57mm or 30/06 case there just isn't a whole lot of difference.Since we have had the benefit now of over 100 years empirical data to look at this should be pretty apparaent but the conversations continue unabated...


BTW what the hell is a 308 Winchester

Exactly 0.024" plus the availability of heavier bullets in the 30 cal.

It's a 30-06 Improved! Does everything today the old 30-06 did, in a more compact package!

Yeah, especially with the new powders.

But, it'll never compete with the '06 using heavy bullets...

Heavy bullets and slow powder belong to the '06.

DF

And the same can be said about the '06. Does everything a 300 mag did using new powders and heavy bullets. Run it at the same psi/cup and it's damn amazing what you'll get.

These new powders have changed a lot of "rules".

DF

But the proven effectiveness of old 30-06 performance on game remains valid. A 165/180 grain 30 Cal bullet at old school 30-06 speeds will kill most things quite effectively.

Yep.

And that can be said for a host of "old fashioned" rounds that have been efficiently killing stuff for generations.

The main thing I see with some of these new, high intensity rounds is superior performance at extended ranges. Most old time hunters wouldn't have considered shooting a deer at 500 yds. They'd have gotten closer and zapped it with a .300 Savage or such.

Shooting critters across canyons and hugh bean fields wasn't in their play book. I guess buffalo hunters out West, with their big rifles, did some of that. But they were professionals, not neighborhood deer hunters.

IMHO,

DF

I know the 30/06 is not a real long range cartridge in the sense we tend to think about it, but sometimes the numbers will lie to us...

I do know that if a 165 gr bullet fired from a 30/06 lands in deer or elk vitals out to about 500 yards,you have a very dead animal.How it works beyond that I can't say as 500 yards or so is as far as I have seen it used.It is no toy and a very lethal combination.

Yeah, back in the days before the belted magnums...the 30/06 was the 1000 yard competition round!

Great point.

Now, those old rounds just bounce off stuff, especially anything beyond 200 yds...

Go figure...

DF

Is the 180 BT harder than the Hornady 180 SST

From what I hear, yes, definitely.

I've heard that the NBT is tougher than the SST. I think changes were made in the past few years, thickening the NBT jacket.

I've shot 180 NBT's in my .300 WM at 3,050 fps. I've had the bullets cause explosive wounds on hog heads, all on the intake side. I've been told that hog heads aren't good tests of bullet performance.

But, I've shot hogs thru the head with my 6.5-284, using 140 gr. SST's at 2,950 fps and got pass thru wounds without a big exit hole.

I had one doe, shot thru the lungs with the 140 SST, run a long way and didn't have that much internal damage. I've switched to 140 VLD's with that rifle, hoping for more internal damage.

Those NBT's may have been the older ones, I'm not sure when the reported changes took place.

IMHO,

DF

I ran the old NBT's in a 300 WM as well. 180's and 150's and loaded them right near max. This was my crop damage rifle that I used over potato fields. Even the 180's were like hand grenades on deer. That was back in '95. I still have some and run them in my '06. I have bought a newer box of 150's and they hold up much better than those old 180's.

I killed a number of hogs with that .300 WM. It killed'em stone dead in their tracks. Where the bullets hit, it looked like something a Claymore may have done. No exit, just a massive, gaping hole with inside parts exposed.

I never experienced that with SST's. I've read stuff about them breaking up, just never saw it.

DF

My dad condemned the 139 gr SST's in his 280, foolishly IMHO. He hit a big bruiser of a buck in the pelvis on the run and damn near blew the thing in half. The bullet went completely through but tore the hell out of the deer and all of the best meat. My dad bitched about how explosive the bullets were. I kinda broke it to him soft by saying WTF did you expect hitting a deer there at 3k FPS.

I picked up 2 boxes of 180 BTs this past Sat. Been curious just exactly what they look like inside now. Change them they did! They are GOOD looking bullets now from a jacket perspective. They may not be bonded like the A-Bonds,but for $23 a box I can shoot some critters with them. I can't see any reason not to in the 30/06.

I reviewed these when introduced and they performed just like a Hornady of equivalent weight on feral game in the .30/06.

In the mid to late 90's, there were a lot of "pretty" bullets on the market as people seemed to be intrigued with "trinket" marketing.

They will be fine for the usual deer sized game.
John

John,

Nosler beefed up the jacket on the 180 BT a few years ago. Now it's very similar to the 200-grain .338, with the jacket comprising about around 75% of the bullet's volume and 60%+ of its weight. They act very much like Partition when they hit game.

JB
Good to know. Back then I had so many provided for review, I tested them all. Haven't tried them lately.

John