I am starting to get ready for a Cape Buffalo hunt I hope to take in 2019 and am practicing with my Model 70 458 WM Cabela's 50th anniversary rifle. I am working on my loads and have selected a North Fork solid FP in 450 and have narrowed down the expanding bullet to a Swift A Frame 450 or a Barnes TSX in 450. (which ever shoots best) I have just started to assemble the components and would appreciate any comments or advice on this matter. I have all the bullets and several powders ready to go. AA2230 for the North Forks, RL 7 for the Swift and Barnes and also IMR 3031 for the Swift. I will try and get the POI to be close and load the A frame/ Barnes first followed by the 2 solids for the hunt. I have Hornady Brass on hand and a variety of primers. I was planning on a Lee Crimp Die as well as my Redding Die. But am not sure if I need the crimp. I will measure velocity with my Magneto.

I also have a Bushnell 6500 Elite 1.25 x 8 x 32 on Warne removable rings, with a Nikon African/Warne 1x4x20 as a backup in addition to the Iron sights. I am not sure where to sight in - either at 50 or 100 yards??

I have rigged up a short set of 3 sticks that can sit on the bench in my indoor range for practice and load development and have a set of African Sporting Creations for the hunt. On my elk hunts I have always placed a sand bag on my pack or a tree limb but that cannot work here.

Any advice from those who have actually hunted in Africa on any of my set up would be greatly appreciated.

Be aware if you are using one powder for one and one for the other, sometimes the first shot or two can be WAY off due to fouling, Well lets just say it can be at least 6 inches off at 200 yards. Same can apply for differing jacket materials.

Being you likely are shooting 50 yards or less it might not be an issue.

I'll be watching as in my mind for big bears I"m thinking Barnes 450 TSX hands down but my ears are open. Barnes has never failed me where others have in the past, at least for what I wanted/expected out of h them.

You have a good rifles and better bullet than I had in the 70s. (404 Jeffery and factory RWS and old Kynock ammo) And I was just fine.
You'll do fine if you keep cool and shoot carefully.
It's going to be 99% about YOU and 1% about your tools.

Don't shoot at "the chest", but shoot at a spot on the chest, as if you were going to hit a softball or tennis ball.
If they are quartering away, visualize the shoulder bone on the other side and shoot to break that. The bullet goes through the vitals first and dose the killing and the break of the bones does the stopping.

Good shots will usually result in a kill as if you were killing a cow in a farmers field.
Not-so-good shots can result in the stuff of legend and tales around campfires for years.

It's fun to talk of them and hear of them. It's NOT fun to be the subject of one of them

Be calm. Shoot carefully!

If it wer3 me I’d go with the 450 grain TSX and AA 2230. I’d also use the AA2230 with the FP solid, but I doubt you will need a solid if you use the TSX.

That North Fork 450 grain bullet is a great choice. I broke the shoulder of a wounded buff bull with a Texas heart shot using one. The recovered bullet looked like it hadn't been fired except for the rifling grooves. I also used the 450 grain TSX, and AA2230. Velocity was 2250 with no signs of pressure and recoil was noticeably less than 500 grain bullets. As I'm sure you realize, flat point solids penetrate deeper than round noses.

You don't need to take shooting sticks to Africa. Your trackers.will have them. They "magically" put them in front of you whenever you go to shoot, though I shot both my buffs offhand.

Have a great trip.

The 450's, both in the NF solid and TSX soft should get it all done with ease, that being said, I'll hunt Buffalo and Leopard in Mozambique in either in 2018 or '19, my load is the 500 gr Partition at 2150 fps coupled with a 450 gr Cutting Edge BBW #13 solid at 2250 fps.

The Leopard load is a squishy 350 gr Woodleigh BPE bullet at 2500 fps, it will splat nicely on a Leopard.

Thanks for the Info. I can't find any load data for AA2230 with the Barnes, where should I look? The data on the North Fork came from them. I like the idea of the same powder as was suggested earlier.

I used the same weight of AA2230 with both bullets. Start a little low and work op. The load that got me to 2250 fps with both bullets didn't seem to be very high pressure. I was not trying for maximum velocity, though. 2250 was good enough for everything including elephant.

Gunner,

Watch out for different points of impact with 350s and heavier bullets. I could get 2700 fps easily with 350 grain TSXs using powder faster than AA2230. Pressure? Fired cases practically fell out of the chamber. But...impact was about 6 inches lower at 100 yards than 450 or 500 grain bullets. Why lower? Because the heavy bullets are in the barrel longer, allowing it to recoil upward more before they leave the muzzle. The only way I could get the same impact point was to reduce velocity to about 2350, defeating the purpose of using lighter bullets.

So..I would have had to adjust scope elevation in the field. I don't like to do that. So I took a .300 Wby along for smaller stuff.
.

Thanks Indy, but already have her worked out, the 350's hit dead on at 50 yards through the 1.5-5 Leupold, don't think I'll shoot a treed cat on bait any farther, the 500 gr Partitions land 2"s high at 100 with the 450 BBW's at about 1.5", the factory irons are zeroed with the solids to be on at 50.

The rifle is an old FN Browning Safari in 458 WM, it's light and accurate, should be a pleasure carrying it 100 miles in Mozambique.

I also have an old spare Burris 1-3/4-5 zeroed in an extra set of QD rings just in case, all loads are loaded with H-335 powder.

You don't need solids for buffalo. For softs, out of all the ones you mentioned, I'd pick the one your rifle likes best..

Further to this, you want to discuss bullet selection with your PH.

He makes his living watching what happens in the bush when we novices poke holes in DG. All of us have opinions, some have a little experience, but I'm guessing none of us have been in on the demise of numerous DG every year for the past 30 years!

The fellow I am hunting Cape Buffalo with will absolutely not allow solids of any make or Hornady softs on a buffalo hunt.

Talk to your PH.


Tim

I would use AA2230 across the board. AA2230will give the best performance.

Forget the “what shoots best” thought. Rather what has the best terminal performance. Use TSX and forget solids.

Yeah, Cape buffalo are big animals, normally shot inside 100 yards. Super-accuracy isn't required.

find some temperature pressure charts with different powders on it, it maybe hot and different powders change pressures when its hot ??

Nonsense. Any of those three bullets will do a superb job on buffalo, so why not try and be a bit more precise with shot placement, but again, no solids required as you also state.

I have to agree Jorge, but, from a greenhorns standpoint of only hunting Africa twice so far, and both times was in the low bush thorn thickets, being able to deliver a vital hit through a small opening at a trophy animal is what I go prepared for, as well as being able to deliver accurate hits out to 200 yards with my 458 Win Mag, two 500 grain Nosler Partitions at 2157 fps less than an inch apart with a 450 gr BBW solid at 2275 directly centered under both for a perfect triangle at 100 yards made me feel good about my load development.

The whole group with both softs and solids was less than an inch and a half.

I load and take solids because my PH loves them, he shoots everything with the 450 gr GS Custom flat nosed solids in his 458 Lott.

Gunner, I'm in the same boat as you and there is nothing wrong with a Partition for buffalo either!

I'm going to find out Big Buddy, have been told and read the heavyweight Partitions from 375 on up to 458 Don't kill well, I believe those guys picked the wrong week to stop huffing paint.

I'd like to see some actual data to back up that nonsense those guys are putting out. Whereas there's pretty good data out there on the Hornady DGX failing, I don't ever remember seeing anything bad about Nosler. The only reason I didn't use them is because they just didn't group with my 375 and in general Partitions-for me-have been the hardest of all to shoot accurately.

Same here on the proof, a 300 gr 375, 400 gr 416 or 500 gr 458 HAS to be a good killer, they have no choice by their very design, I've always had great luck getting the NPT's to shoot good, your old 300 H&H will routinely print less than 2" groups at 100 yards with 220 gr Partitions and H-4831, and that's with my naked eye through a receiver peep.

The Partitions always shot extremely well in both my 300 H&Hs. But my 338 WM, 257Weatherby (I would have loved the 100 Partition to shoot in that one) and my 300 Weatherby, flat don't like them. I did pick up a German 257 Wetherby (with the old twist so it will not shoot 100gr TTSXs) but now I'm going to give the Partitions a try with that rifle.

Good deal, and good luck with the old German 257 Jorge.

I’ve used the 400 grain Partition out of a 416 Rigby Federal factory load on Bison and a rib cage shot didn’t exit, heel of the bullet was pinched together and the bullet was bulged behind the Partition like an A-Frame. I will not use them again, because of the lack of penetration. I’ve had good luck with the 250 Partition in 338 Win mag. The 180 TSX out of a 300 RUM exIted every time even on hard angled shots.

While I have no doubt that this is good advice, be sure to ask your PH. I talked with one in Zambia a month ago and he insisted on a hunter having some solids along for following up buffalo.

TSX penetrate deep enough to negate the need for solids.

That's what I thought too. I specifically asked if I could just bring TSX's and his answer was, "Bring some solids too, in case we have to follow up a wounded buffalo".

PH's, like most hunting guides, have varying opinions on such things. I once had an elk guide in Wyoming tell me that a 300 Weatherby was marginal for elk. He recommended a 300 Ultra Mag..........

The North fork 450gr flat point solid is an excellent bullet, as well as the CEB 450gr Safari solid. Take a look at the North fork 450gr SS, this is another very excellent bullet
for buffalo. No need to hot rod the 458 WM, 2150 fps or there about will work just fine. AA2230 is an excellent powder for the 458 WM. The CEB 450gr Safari solid in my Lott at 2150fps easily gives pass thru performance on ele brain shots, I have yet to retrieve one. Good luck on your hunt.

Love the "Dipidi Doo" horns!

Jorge,
My Ruger .338 WM shoots 210 Noslers and 225 and 230 well. Not bad with Federal 250s either. It has been Magna ported, had a trigger job, and the action glass bedded.
I took this departing bull elk with 210 Nosler "Texas heart shot" .


The left ham suffered some meat damage, but an elk is a large critter and very good eating.

Head Trauma,
I like your post as it reassures me that the 450 grain solids from my 1886 will still be up to the job on ele or anything else.
We too found that the .458 NF 450 and Punch 430 solids at 2150 fps penetrated fully on frontal brain shots and the bullets were recovered in the ele body. Both could have been loaded and shot again.

Sorry sir, but not true. This is something I use to believe in, but over time and many Buffalo hunted over the years, I came to realise that a TSX will never replace a solid. If you have a situation on a wounded Buff, standing with his head in the thickets, and you only have a rear end shot, a TSX just won't have the penetration to bust through all that rumen to reach the vitals. That is where you need an out and out solid.

Neither do I prefer to use the TSX as a primary bullet on Buff either. We have seen and heard of a few TSX that fail to open, and then act like a solid. On Buff, we often shoot into the herd. We have never had a pass through from a 375 to 505 Gibbs with conventional softs such as Nosler Accubonds, Swift A Frames etc.
You don't want to be in the situation with your dream bull standing in the herd, and wonder if your bullet will fail to open, causing a pass through and hitting another animal in the herd. Will hunting with a TSX be responsible for you going home without a Buff, I certainly don't think so, but it could cost you a chance at a buff that you could confidently take with a conventional soft.

The twist is the biggest culprit in causeing any mono metal to not open, that’s why dropping to a 450 grain copper bullet in 458 is a good idea because of the length. 359 grain in 416, extensive testing has shown that as faster twist with 500 grain 458 bullets increase their penetration and aid in expansion. Even solids penetrate deeper by dropping down a weight or with a faster twist.

All good and well sir, but this is still no excuse to replace your solids with a TSX. We are not talking about adequate penetration of a brain shot on a Buff here, but penetrating the length of the body from tail to chest when a situation like this arises. When this happens, I want my hunter to be equipped with tools that will get the job done.

KMG, not to butt in here, but, do you experienced PH's think the 450 gr Cutting Edge BBW #13 solid at 2275 fps from my 458 Win Mag will be fine for a fleeing Cape Buffalo, I'll be using it in the Mozambique long grass?

The only solid experience I have is the 570 and 750 gr Barnes banded flat nosed solids from my doubles shooting armadillo off sticks walking around the farm, and one friend that shot a hog with one, obviously not a test.

Interesting take on Barnes. With TTSX I hear of no failures to open. I"ve personally never seen a TSX not open either but others have.

My friends on the big bears on the coast in AK are about the opposite and prefer by far to see barnes over other cup and core options out there, due to the barnes always working and some of the cup and core, even bonded, just not proving satisfactory.

I could easily see that a more fragile bullet would lead to a quicker death by a few seconds or so generally. Makes sense. Personally I'd be scared as hell to be shooting a big animal with a bullet that didn't always make it out the other side. But with backup I suppose its sort of moot.

Sure is nice to read comments from the folks that have been there and done that on the real question at hand, as its often different than what one would believe.

Me, I'd be bringing Barnes though regardless. I have nothing but faith in them and them alone. Obviously mono solids after the first round will never be a bad idea. OTOH I'd think too, I could mag up with Barnes and let the pro carry the solids if need be.

Sure wish Barnes would tuck a tip in that 458/450 bullet....

(Neophyte opinion here): The solid is in my view a specialized tool for the PH for the valid reasons Marius stated. That said, I really don't see a need for a solid on anything but elephant, rhino or hippo on dry land. The owner of the AR site, with over 200 buffalo under his belt, uses his version of a TSX out of a 375/404 and he gets complete penetration, even on "Texas Hear Shots" on buffalo. There have been instances of TSXs not opening up, but it's very rare with the larger calibers as they have a pretty big nose cavity. The PH i hunt with, John Sharp loads solids exclusively on his stopping rifles but for clients, he does not allow it (except for the animals cited above).

Gunner, the CEB BBW#13 will work great. The meoplat bullets have shown to offer better penetration than the round nose solids, so at the respectable speed of 2275 fps, they will certainly get the job done. I shoot both my softs and solids from my 500NE at 2080, and it has done the job, so think your velocity is spot on.
I speak under correction, but dont think that you can get the meoplat solids in the Barnes Banded Solids. They changed them to round nose. I bought some for my 416 Rigby and still have a few, but once they are gone, I will need to start over with finding a new combination.

Jorge, I can fully appreciate why John would not want his clients to use solids. He is a legend of the game.

To get back to the TSX issues, a PH friend of mine had them failing to open out of his 470NE. Subsequently, he moved to Shift A-Frames for softs and the local Dzombo solids.

Twist plays a part in the opening of TSX, GSCustom, etc. I’d go with a450 grain TSX in 458 on Buffalo in a heart beat.

Not.458, a .416 Rigby, 400 TSX. Reportedly went thru 50" of buff; must have been angling shot. My good bud went to Zim for this 41 incher

DF

Any of you guys ever used the (discontinued) tungsten-core GS solids on buffalo or elephant? I bought a box of the 500gr bullets for my .458 about 15 years ago but never got around to loading any except the one dummy round. For those not familiar, these were a hard tungsten core wrapped in a gilding metal jacket with a moderate meplat. I believe they were discontinued due to something about tungsten cores being considered armor piercing.

10-4, Thanks KMG, I have 10 or 12 boxes each of the flat nosed 570 and 750 gr Barnes Banded Solids for my 500 and 577 Nitro doubles, that should do me a lifetime, and yes, the solid load for my 458 WM was developed specifically with the CEB BBW#13 solids because of the big flat meplat, hoping to they'll plow really good should the need arise.

My experience with Cape Buffalo is limited to just 2, both in Mozambique. The first was on a buffalo wounded by another hunter and running toward the rear of a large herd. I shot it going away at about 200 yds, broke the spine and dropped it anchoring for a close in finishing shot by the other hunter. The 2nd was my own bull at about 50 yds, frontal chest shot and a second similar presentation to bring him down. Both of these penetrated to the paunch. All these shots were with the 400 grain Swift A-frame from a 404 Ruger (0.423” diameter) at about 2375 FPS MV.

I haven’t shot any buffalo with a 458 but have no reason to believe that a 0.458” Swift A-Frame would behave any differently than the same bullet in 0.423”. I don’t think the solids are needed.

With respect to the CEB BBW#13, my only experience has been with their 0.500” 570 grain bullet in a 500 NE 3” at 2150-2175 FPS in a DB on a large bull elephant. At least 4 feet of straight line penetration on a frontal brain shot after a chest shot through the heart, to anchor. Much more penetration than needed on any Cape buffalo bull, especially in a herd or even small band scenario.

I have no experience with AA2230 in a 458WM, but in my 458 Lott this powder worked well with 500 grain softs, so I would assume it would work just as well in the 458WM.

All good info, and Thanks W264, part of my affliction comes from liking to tinker with rifles, cartridges and loads, you see, near every rifle I have at 9.3-62mm and up has a solid load developed for it, of course the big 500 and 577 doubles have their very own solid load barrel, left barrel, back trigger, second shot, solid.

For example:

9.3-62mm, 280 gr CEB BBW solid, I bought a blank from NECG and filed it dead on at 50 yards.
400 Whelen, 400 gr Woodleigh solid, filed on NECG sight blank.
375 H&H, pre-64 rollover front sight, 300 gr CEB solid at 2700 fps, dead on at 50.
375 AI, 300 gr CEB BBW solid at 2800 fps, NECG sight blank filed dead on at 50.
Browning Safari 458 Win, 450 gr CEB BBW solid filed dead on at 50 from another NECG sight blank.
505 Gibbs, 600 gr Woodleigh solid at an easy 2150 fps, changed front sight height with a NECG sight to get solids to hit dead on at 50.

All but the 505 [scope killer] solid loads impact within an inch of their soft point littermates at 100 yards through their scopes, having a good solid load to shoot with irons is fun, 'can be useful' and will make any larger bore more attractive to a potential buyer at time of sale.

A fresh pinch of cope, a set of sticks, walking your farm randomly shooting stumps, dirt clods, cow patties, armadillo and rocks has provided many a enjoyable afternoon for me.

Gunner, you have dillers in OK?

LOL, yes, I have to say walking a creek bed and putting a Barnes solid from a 500 Nitro into the tailpipe at near dead on [he was up on the bank] angle doesn't leave much for the buzzard cleanup crew, it really hulled that thing out ;]

Yondering:
The 500gr AGS works very well in my rifle. The last four ele's I've killed with my .458 M-70 were with the AGS @ 2150 fps. One of the ele's presented itself in picture-perfect position for a frontal brain shot. I was standing on a slight rise, and was level with the ele. The shot was true, and during the recovery, one of the skinners located the AGS bullet. The bullet had penetrated the brain, through the neck, and was somewhere (?) in the vicinity of the hips. Expensive bullets to practice with, but a small price when considering the cost of hunting elephant.

My buffalo experience is both African and Asian, 4 countries and 3 continents. 135 in all; I don't count those I finished for other people. I don't know why PHs do..............naah I know exactly why they do.

Anyway, this what I've learned; most of it with the .458s but some .375, 416, and 450 NE. A-Frames are great. TSXs are good. Partitions are good. Woodleighs are good. From what I've seen of DGXs they aren't always good. CEBs are good until you hit bush then you have 7 pieces of shrapnel and that isn't good. Solids suck, but if you use CEBs you better have some for the followups because in the brush Safari Raptors suck worse. If you have to take a going away shot on a wounded buffalo break his hip or spine him with your magazine full of softs.

PHs don't agree with each other, so its not mandatory to agree with yours. Its mostly about the first shot anyway.

Totally agree.

I would recommend AGAINST using the Hornady DGX on buffalo based on my experience with that bullet on elk out of a 458 Lott. That is a bad bullet. The newer ones are bonded and may have fixed the problems. I would still be leery.

As for the Barnes not opening. They need some velocity and some size to work reliably. I don't know what the velocity is on a 470 but probably less than I get with my Lott. If you are pushing a Barnes to anything over 2100 fps in 458 I don't see how it could fail to open.

I am not a big Barnes fan like I was when they first came out as I couldn't get them to shoot very good for me anymore but on anything 30 caliber and up, with the exception Marius just cited, I have never seen nor heard of a failure to open. I have seen several fail to open from 25-06s, however.

I am going to load up a couple of boxes for this summer. We will see how it plays out (provided they shoot adequately)

Thank you for your comment Dennis. I think Barnes are terrific bullets. It is just belief that you get horses for courses. If I recall, I think my friend might have photos of those failed Barnes.

As I mentioned earlier, some of the Buff we shoot are in herds, and I don't still want to wonder if the equipment are going to fail, and go through the animal hitting another member of the herd. There is no doubt that Barnes penetrate better than conventional bullets, and usually they sit on the opposite side, just under the skin. Any percentage of failure to open, would probably allow them to have enough energy to break that skin.
This problem is nullified when using conventional lead core bullets.

I will see if i can get those photos.

I think you will find that most PH's agree on most points.

More important is the twist rate with any mono metal expanding bullet. If the bullet is marginally stabilized then the point can bend and they will not open.

Horses for courses. If they don't suit your rifle's twist rate, then don't use them on Cape Buffalo....

JWP, I guess both my doubles are properly twisted, I've recovered nothing but text book expansion on several 570 and 750 grain TSX's from my homemade bullet testing media, hard packed magazines with the odd cow leg, jaw and any other large bones I could randomly stuff between the magazines makes for a pretty good test packed tight in a cardboard box.

They haven't always been pretty, and some beat all to hell with differing bends to the petals, but all expanded and done the work, the 570 TSX's from my 500 Nitro leave at 2168 fps, the 750's from the 577 leave at 2065 fps, haven't shot any buffalo with either, but have no doubt, it'd take a lot of buffalo to stop em.

Agree on what? Bullets? Clients? Truck tires? Whiskey?

With the desired frontal/shoulder/side shot, I would use the 550gn Woodleigh Weldcore and back that up with a magazine full of 450gn TSX bullets to scratch his chest from the inside, if he tries to run a way. The Woodleigh's thump hard, as well as anything and the X's are terrific for going away shots.
John

I’m not having nor have I ever had a Barnes TSX to not open, maybe you should tell your friend he’s the one having problems.

I have killed hundreds of animals since 1990 when the X's hit the Aussie market in most caliber from .224 through .458 and although accept that some people had some failures and saw the pics posted of X bullet versions that did not expand, I personally never experienced or witnessed it. Because I used so many, I noted a great many changes that has ever been discussed here on the 'fire. I published an article on it about 2003 and although Barnes liked the article, TSX's followed soon after obsoleting my findings.

In the 1990's and into this century, I had a website called Guns-N-Info.com and had a lot of international input from hunters with their technical questions. The only Barnes issue from that era was with .257 caliber X bullets relating to accuracy and by miking my own lots, I found that at least with my supplies, there was a run of bullets that were under caliper, maybe enough that some barrels "could" be poorly matched. There was no talk of opening issues until I ventured here but as stated, I too have seen the pics posted.

I used a lot of .458 Caliber X bullets with my personal choice going to the 400 grain but the 300's were terrific on medium game and the 450's may prove the best of all of them. The 500's work too but are very long and I tried them in both my .458's and .460 Weatherby but 2150fps was only achievable in the .458 case when using AA2230 and extending the OAL to just under 3.6" and the .460 case lost powder capacity because of that same bullet length, were a mere 2600fps+ was only possible and not the full 2700fps the cartridge is rated at, which I will add, it a true and achievable factory specification.
John

You are spot on!

Great thread! A ton of experience shared.

I’ve used Woodleigh Weldecores in my doubles with complete satisfaction.

Interesting that you saw problems with the 25s as I have personally seen 2 occasions where a 25-06 fired X bullet failed to expand and penciled through. In one case killing a second animal and recovered from it and in the other it was never found but exited with none of the typical trauma.

A good friend of mine who was a game warden here in Arizona had a case where a 270 fired X-bullet exited a cow elk and killed 2 more, lodging in the 3rd. Bullet could have been reloaded and fired again. I know nothing of the rifles that fired these bullets, however.

When they first came out, I culled dozens of feral horses with them in various 30 caliber weights. They were most impressive on horses.

I have never killed a single head of African game (something I intend to correct in July) but I have killed 20+ elk with Barnes X bullets. I have never recovered one, not a single one on an elk. I have recovered only one from a mule deer which traveled the length of his neck after breaking one of the cervical vertebrae. I just wish they were more accurate in my guns.

He's not the only one. I guess the guys below is also full of it then?

https://www.shootersforum.com/handl.../103617-barnes-triple-shock-failure.html

https://www.longrangehunting.com/threads/barnes-triple-shock-disappointment.62461/

https://www.huntingnet.com/forum/reloading/122165-barnes-tsx-failure-expand-no-way.html

Jeff, those Woodleighs are very good. They are not as soft as what people make them out to be either. Had a hunter use them in his Heym 470NE on 2x Cape Buffalo. On both bulls, he broke the near shoulder, and we found the mushroom in the meat on the opposite side. ( Roughly 2"-3" from getting to the skin.)

I use them myself in the 500NE.

So you surfed, the internet to find 3 posts on 3 different sites as far back as 13 years ago, congratulations! 🎈 why don’t you do the same for any other expanding bullet that failed to do as it was designed to do? We know the examples are out their.

Like I said I’ve never experienced that nor have I ever personally seen it and yes I’ve read about on the internet. We are talking about buffalo with with a 458 and your 3 that you found on the net were 270 and 30 cal. Do you recommend any of those calibers for cape bullalo?
I personally have seen cup and core bullets come apart and not penetrate as they should. Jack Lott had a 500 grain solid bend about 90 degrees and 1 that broke apart on the same cape buffalo.

Any and all Bullets can fail at some point, I even saw a picture of a mono metal flat point solid that broke in half on accurate reloading site.

I’d use a TSX in a heart beat, but your point seems to be to thrash TSX Bullets.

Have a nice day, sir.

Same to you.

Interesting that you saw problems with the 25s as I have personally seen 2 occasions where a 25-06 fired X bullet failed to expand and penciled through. In one case killing a second animal and recovered from it and in the other it was never found but exited with none of the typical trauma.

A good friend of mine who was a game warden here in Arizona had a case where a 270 fired X-bullet exited a cow elk and killed 2 more, lodging in the 3rd. Bullet could have been reloaded and fired again. I know nothing of the rifles that fired these bullets, however.

When they first came out, I culled dozens of feral horses with them in various 30 caliber weights. They were most impressive on horses.

I have never killed a single head of African game (something I intend to correct in July) but I have killed 20+ elk with Barnes X bullets. I have never recovered one, not a single one on an elk. I have recovered only one from a mule deer which traveled the length of his neck after breaking one of the cervical vertebrae. I just wish they were more accurate in my guns.[/quote


Wow. I want to start off with saying this has nothing to do with the original post. I have been puzzled for the past 2 years of how my deer season turned out that year. Much older and very experienced friend of mine started loading 270wsm ammo for me. He suggested the 110gr TTSX as the bullet he thought would give phenomenal accuracy and velocity out of my Tikka. We went to the range and sure enough first try at the range using RL-17 I put 4 rounds in the same hole and 1 about 1/2" off. I was ecstatic and had never shot 5 round group like that out of a deer rifle before. Fast forward to deer season, I shoot 7 deer that year only recovering 5. That was my 19th deer season and to that point had only lost 2 deer total. This year I would match that total in 1 season. Of the 5 retrieved, I only found "good blood" on 1 of them. 2 of them I found zero blood. The other 2 I found pencil sized droplets or smaller until I walked up on the animal. None of the projectiles were recovered. Upon explaining this to my friend he was just as shocked as I was. His reasoning is that the TTSX's were they were moving so fast and the bullet was opening so fast that the petals were breaking off and on the core was passing through. My take was that the bullets weren't expanding at all. He says that's almost impossible. He has shot these religiously out of 7m-08 and 308's at a much slower speed and he says they perform flawlessly for him. Now I know i'm not crazy for thinking these bullets weren't opening! Thoughts??

I have since switched to factory loaded Nosler 140gr Accubonds and haven't even had a deer walk away from them at all. I really like the concept of the TTSX and want to shoot them again but maybe in a 130gr i'm just a little standoffish with my past experience with the smaller ones.

Randall

I’d say all Bullets have limitations and the petals shearing off is great for some and not so for others. The 140 ABs at 3200 are rocket ships though.

There is a huge difference between the smaller caliber TSXs (since corrected with the TTSX) but the large openings in the larger calibers, really afford the TSXs pretty reliable penetration. That and they will hold together and penetrate better than any bonded cup and core at least that has been my observation /

I would concur with this.

Agreed men, my 570 gr TSX's at 2168 and 750 gr TSX's at 2065 open very easy in test media and the end of lengthways shot 55 gallon metal drums filled with water.

You have to witness the displacement forces these two bullets put out to believe it!

Hard to believe anyone would not recognize the effectiveness of the TSX Bullets especially in big bores.

I'll give you a little visual rundown:

Steel 55 gal hydraulic oil drum full of water, banded lid facing me at 25 yards.
750 gr TSX left the 577 Nitro double at 2065 fps.
At impact, the drum ruptured, as I was recovering from recoil I saw the threaded filler cap bouncing towards my outside right field of view [pulled the threads on that]
Broke the latch on the lid band, main lid blew, ruptured [split] the drum at the seam.
Hugh half fist sized dog knot knocked into the bottom of the drum, damn near made it through.

Rolled the wasted drum back into the tractor bucket, went to the shop to wipe my rifle down and weigh the bullet, Yup, you guessed it, 750.4 grains.

Nothing will live through an accurate hit with that combo.

Nope!

Except maybe the poor sap who pulls the trigger

I [may] have 10 years left with that shoulder pounding beast!

Awww... That's just gunner's truck gun...

Okie 'dillers are big and bad...

He gotta protect the ranch from those critters.

DF

My 140 gr TSX via 270 Win Kimber Montana had zero issues opening and penetrating a diagonal shot on my 2015 bull elk at 250 yards. It weighed 140 grs recovered IIRC. It sits in a drawer of my X/TSX/TTSX recovered bullets that run from 150 # hogs to whatever a cape buffalo weighs and a pile betwixt.

Between 1990 and the end of the decade there was a huge variation in the design changes (Read that as planned changes and not variation in manufacturing tolerances) with Barnes X bullets. Some of these hollow points were quite thick and others thinner and the ogive shapes varied across the bullets, and the bases and the heals and the finish overall in the production lots as continual research was done to perfect these new entries into the big game market. Barnes also had at that time, hunters issued bullets to trial which they called field correspondents or some such similar name.

The end result appears satisfying to people who stayed with them and not so much with those that dropped them back then, which is a similar scenario to the Nosler Ballistic Tip critics that used the first batches in the 80's and bitched about it ever since.
John

I would not hesitate to use a 450 grain TSX on buffalo,I’d even use the 400 grain GSCustom, either one in a heart beat.

Just an FYI for those interested.....
Barnes sent me a couple of boxes of 450gn Vortex Ammo when first developed and it shoots well as expected and chronographs at 2133fps. (Oehler 36P)
The factory OAL for these cartridges is 3.328" for those wishing to emulate these load spec's.
I have found it extremely easy to gain 100-200fps more than this with good accuracy and not a skerrick of excess pressure, so there is wiggle room as with most factory load comparisons.

The powders I have used included AA2230, H 322, H 4198. There is a list of additional powders in the manuals that also include Rel 7 and H 335 which already have a track record with the .458 so it should not be hard to find a suitable buffalo load.
John

Coming from a man that has to use a Hi-Cap 10mm on LA swamp rabbits.

With a 3.6” magazine the 458 bullets can be long loaded and gain even more velocity, through more case capacity.

I would use C.E.B. Raptors and Solids.

Either the TSX or AFrame will be fine. Used a 450 gr A Frame from 458win was a 1 and done deal. I have a client that shoots 300tsx out of 458 lott and had gone 3 buff 3 shots. Quality bullet and placement they will die.