Daughter and I are going to SA on a plains game hunt in 7/2021. She will be shooting a .308. Zebra, gemsbok and wildebeest are on the list along with smaller antelope. All things being equal, velocity and accuracy, which would you shoot? Nosler 168 grain accubond lr or a 168 grain ttsx. Thank you in advance.

Shoot a Barnes into the triangle/sargent stripe. A 160-grain NP .270 Weatherby did for my wife's last year. 150-grain TSX for a gemsbok and waterbuck in 2007. 168-grain TTSX for me.

TTSX is my choice.....excellent bullet. A 150 grain TTSX wouldn't be a bad pick as well.

Howdy DR

I have taken 4 Zebra, Blue Wildebeest, 2 Kudu, Eland, Waterbuck, Nyala and Gemsbok all with the 180TTSX from a .300 Mag.

Perfection - all I can say.

In the .308 I'd go no heavier than 168 to help keep the velocity up.

Some other bullets may work as well, but my African experiences with TTSX are stellar.

Placement is always paramount, of course!


Tim

At .308 velocities either will work well--but have seen quicker kills (and more than adequate penetration) with 150-grain tipped monolthics (Barnes TTSX and Nosler E-Tip) than heavier bullets, probably due to higher velocity.

Load is 40 grains of IMR-3031 for both loads. Guessing starting velocity is about 2550 FPS.

I'd pick the Accubond with the reduced velocity. My wife shot those animals with a 308 and 180 accubonds. Worked well.

Honestly, what more would you really need? 308’s have been my lifelong favorites. Began hunting in 77 with a 308 & have not stopped.

Last safari we used 165TSX in Mrs Blacktailer's 308 Kimber. I don't recall what velocity I loaded to but it was not max by any means because I didn't want to beat her up with recoil. Did fine on zebra on down. The TTSX should work very well.

The 308 is popular in South Africa and Namibia, probably elsewhere too. One PH loaded the Speer 180s others used the RWS Cone point and H-Mantles, not sure which weight. Either 168 will work well. Another good option is the 130 TTSX this if shots will be longer or recoil might become an issue. I wouldn't hesitate to use the 130 on the larger game you listed but might go heavier for eland. Depending on the length of the hunt recoil can build up cumulatively and is more likely in African hunting where you can shoot as many shots in one day as you do in an entire season in the US.

The milder loading is in trying to keep the recoil down. Shots will be limited, as much as possible, to under 300 yards.

Given any thought to using the 130 Barnes and increasing velocity? They work best with some speed

Given this parameter, then the Accubond LR all day, every day due to your lower velocities.

If you would like even lighter recoil with good ballistics, either the Barnes 120 BlackTip (usable at very low velocities) or the 130 TTSX would work well. The 120 opens up larger and yet still holds together like a mono.

If going factory ammo, then the Barnes Vortex 150 TTSX (new stock #) has the best bullet designed for the 308. Higher BC and meant to open fully at lower velocities, but currently unavailable to reloaders.

180 grain Barnes.

Took my .308 on 3 trips and shot everything from Steenbok to Zebra, Gembok, and Kudu. I took my .300 Jarrett with 165 Grain Accubonds on my last trip to Tanzania and felt a little under-gunned with the 165s. I would take 180 grain Barnes next time. It's Africa, you likely aren't going to have a lot of shots over 150 yards. Ignore the velocity comments on here and go with a 180 grain Barnes. It'll penetrate enough and good trackers will have no issues finding a well-hit animal.

!50 or 168gr TTSX as hard, fast and accurate as I could drive em with CFE-223 powder in Lapua cases lit with CCI-BR2's. good luck and have fun.

Gunner, you own a rifle under 50 caliber???? :-)

I know he has one, a pre-64 .22 Hornet Super Grade.

Ha!

DF

Of your choices, 168 LRAB. (But I'd use the regular Accubond or Ballistic Tip).

What Mule Deer said.

A./
168 ttsx. just coz African game is 'tougher' (scoff)

Barnes TTSX would be my choice over the LR AB.

Enjoy the time with your daughter. Those memories will last forever. Bob

At the velocities that you are working with,I would give strong consideration to the Hornady 150 grain interlock. The version of the bullet that I have the most experience with is the Flat Base Spire point. I have taken around 100 big game animals with this bullet from 308s,30-06s,and 300 Win Mags.

It will give very good performance on the bigger critters at the moderate velocity levels you are using. I have a friend who used the same bullet in 300 Weatherby to kill a bunch of bull elk.

The new SST version is supposed to be really good but I've only shot it at targets so far.

Of the 2 bullets you listed, 1 would use the Nosler Accubond, but either bullet will work well.

With reduced velocity I'd be hesitant to shoot the TTSX. On the other hand, I think the Accubond LR is a bit "soft" if the distance is short. I'd give thought to the regular Accubond or partition 165 grain. Both are soft enough to open with relatively low impact velocity remaining at 300 yards with the reduced launch velocity you're considering and yet will hang together with all the velocity a .308 can muster even at powder burn distance.

My current load for my Kimber Mountain Ascent in .308 is 44.5 grains of RL15 and 165 grain accubonds. It's predecessor, a Kimber Montana, shot it's best with the same bullet and 43.5 grains of RL15.

Tom

Can't go wrong there.

What RinB said.

LOL, I see what you did there.

I have a friend who is an Afrikaner living in Joberg area. He is a PH and does culling at times. His favorite load for the .308 was the old Speer 180 "Mag Tip". He also usually went with head shots. He did, however, run into cold (freezing) temp issues with the South African Powder he used in the Drakensberg's for eland. The bullets didn't penetrate the hide the velocity was so slow. He quickly went to the South African 147gr FMJ Surplus Ammo and head shots. I used the 308 one time on a 230yd Axis. I was using the 165 NBT. I got complete penetration, so that's another good option for you. Personally, I'd go with the 150TTSX. But nothing wrong with heavier. I think most African Game is tough enough to "open" any Mono, even at slower speeds. Think of a "stump" with 1" thick hide on it...there's your zebra!

180 grain Norma Oryx.

You will be in Africa, land of the greatest trackers in the world. What is needed is a blood trail.

TSX. All day, every day. It doesn’t matter if the animal runs 500 yards. It will be found.

On a Texas Ranch, where a runner means another’s property, I prefer something that kills quicker (all things equal). In Africa, I want a legit lung shot blood trail, the rest will take care of itself.

Yup. Put two holes in ‘em and they will be found.

IMHO, the decision should be between the 150 TTSX and 130 TTSX. Both will recoil a bit less than the 168 and the Barnes bullets dig speed. No plains game will stop either one of those with decent placement within 400 yards.

Remember, the 150 TTSX is likely to retain more weight than a 180 NPT. The 130 TTSX will easily retain more than a 165 NPT and more than likely as much or more than the 180.

If it opens, expands and is caught, that is true.

But an expanding bullet should do so 100% of the time...

What utah708 and DaddyRat both said !

TTSXs..like Porsche, there is no substitute, or for that matter, any decent bullet your rifle likes. One can never go wrong with a Partition...

I was leaning something TTSX until I read this. The velocity would shift me over an Accubond or a Partition - whatever the rifle likes best.
Good luck and don't forget to post photos.

yup

At your velocity...which are fine by the way id be happy with a quality cup and core bullet like a interlock. Of the two you mentioned id use the Nosler Acubond. The 308 is one of if not the most common cartridge in use over there. You will be fine.

Think I might just be able to build an entertaining magazine article around all the contradictory, "absolute" statements in this thread.

Thanks, guys. One of the reasons I became a Campfire member almost 20 years ago was to discover what hunters were interested in, and their opinions on various subjects.

JB...did I say something you feel is incorrect?

Nope.

Sounds like an amazing trip! I wonder if I could make something like that happen some day with my children. I'm a bit jealous, and excited for you and your daughter!

I'm not sure you need to "limit" the 308 to 40gr of 3031 at this stage though. It may help to "work up" to a bit more recoil and muzzle blast between now and then. To your question, I doubt there is going to be a hunting bullet you will come across that will give undesirable performance at modest 308 Win velocities, at the typical distances Plains Game are killed, but if there was one, it would likely be one of the "harder" bullets, IMO.

No experience here but with proper placement I have mostly DRT with the 150 TTSX Barnes shooting CCI LR Match primer, 4064 or Varget. None of those at max velocity. If I need more oomph, technical term, I use the same load in Lake City cases. My actual max is the start load averaged with the max load. In other words the middle load. The LC loads I drop two grains unless I need more power. Thus the regular load in an LC case. They are prepped heavily by me ahead of time and I use them on my 358 Winchester loads. I run them through the 308 SB die then right on through the 358 die, always with Imperial sizing die wax. They're so durable, it saves you more than a little bit on cases. Good luck. Let us read a report with photos on your return. Be Well, Rusty

If you can find any new Lake city, it is tougher than Lapua!!!

I am using LC LR 16 brass for this load so that might be helping velocity some. Max is 41.5 grain of 3031. Starting load is 38.0 so this is slightly over mid range load at 40.0 grains. Plus, this is being shot out of a 26 inch barrel in a savage model 12 flv.

168 TTSX and Varget or RL15 is all you need to know.

Here's a 165gr NP under the hide on the far side of an 8' brown bear, started at 2450fps out of a 300 Savage. Same performance on moose too!

Use the 150 TTSX - not the TSX. A .308 with a 150 TTSX has punched through every wild hog up to the 250 - 275 weight range I've shot with it and that is several truck loads and deer up to 250#, which is a bunch more. 100% of the TTSX's have exited. The big old boars here have thicker and tougher hides than most small and medium size animals and make good subjects for testing over lots of numbers of animals. The TTSX's always exit even when going through both shoulders which is covered by 1"+ thick tough hide.

My load for the .308 Win with a 150 TTSX is Varget in Black Hills brass (supposedly made by Winchester) and a F210 - 0.010" off of the lands. Lapua brass obviously is good, but it holds about 0.5 gr less. Runs right at 2900 fps from a 24" 1:10" barrel.

Make sure to take a good quality camera and good binos. A good bird i.d. book will be interesting too, the birds are amazing. My wife and I went to Tanzania for three weeks and loved it. Our expectations were high and it was even better than that.

Good luck and have a great trip.

There are some guys here who have hunted Africa. Some several times. May I suggest you listen to them. 308 with a 150 TTSX looks like a winner. You can run it faster than the 168 and get great penetration with deadly results.

As I recall, Mule Deer's wife hunted plains game with a 308 loaded with 150 grain E-Tips. I don't think she had any complaints. Ask him.

Was in the eastern cape last year for a cull hunt. Rifle was a Blaser R93 .30/06 with a Zeiss scope. Ammunition was factory Barnes 168 grain TTSX. Barrel length was 22". This combo worked perfectly. I would use it again without hesitation.

I think with the LC 16 cases you are getting close to the max velocity. Can you chrono it with that load in the 150 gr TTSX? It might enlighten you. You may be "there" and not know it. I had some discretionary funds come in and spent them on a Lab Radar. I can soon print out a dope card on any load with a few shots beside it. Lots of fun if you are a bit of a "Lab Rat". Keep her shooting and the familiarity with the gun makes for a happy hunter. Good luck and Be well. RZ.

I shot a 150 Ttsx diagonally through a moose at 547 yards. It was started at a mv near 3400 fps from a 300 wsm with superformance. If you go Barnes go Ttsx over tsx and I wouldn't consider anything heavier than the 150. I'd probably go with the130 and get the speed up to 3000 fps or so. Or just use a 150 or 165 partition.

Bb

I guess they all work but wife and I just took 15 animals in Namibia with Swift A-Frames..Flawless performance...300Win ,180 gr and 30/06 180..She dropped a giraffe with one shot,06....Guide was impressed..Swift factory bullets..Everything dropped with one shot out to 250-300 yds..

Ok. Think we have finally settled on a load. She handles the recoil of a 308 fine. So, LCLR brass, 41.0 grains of IMR 3031 and a 168 grain Barnes ttsx. Should give me around 2600 FPS. I may chronograph it later. No pressure signs with this load. After talking with the folks at Barnes, the 168 ttsx is designed to expand properly down to 1500 FPS so we should be good there especially with limiting shots to 350 yards or less. Now to get her shooting of sticks more.

I haven't killed anything but hogs with this one. Terminal performance has been outstanding.

I don't know how it would do on PG, but is an interesting bullet, very accurate as you can see. It frags and penetrates much like a Partition. I guess you could say it is the mono answer to the Partition. Kinda expensive, but how many do you actually shoot at game? Practice with cheaper bullets.

https://cuttingedgebullets.com/308-135gr-er-extended-range-raptor

I guess I'm the only fan, wrote the only review...

This group at a hundred, shot out of a Kimber Classic with 23" 5C Broughton barrel. Check out those low ES/SD values, pretty typical of Varget, IME. 2,900+ fps with a 135 gr. bullet out of a .308 isn't bad. And that's a LR bullet, doesn't have to be going that fast to expand and frag. I know it would work on the lighter PG animals, not sure about the bigger ones, or where the cut off should be.

Reportedly not the best choice in brush, could frag if it hits a branch. All my experience has been out in the open. All that said, I like this bullet.

DF

DF,

I know several African PH’s that think very highly of that bullet. Actual prefer it over a TTSX for certain applications.
R

Just keep it out of the brush.

My experience with it has been great; I'm a fan.

Only down side is the cost.

DF

Hello all, this is my first post... just joined last night. I took a 308 over there twice. My load both times was a 168 TSX over H4895 ( I think 43 grains) that chrono’d right at 2700fps. It killed everything I pointed it at, all with one shot including a very large zebra stallion at about 270 yards. I’ve taken other rifles over there, bigger ones, but my PH always asks why I didn’t bring my 308! I’ve seen 150TTSX used over there out of my buddy’s 30-06 and it worked very well. If y’all show up with rifle loaded with an X bullet that your daughter shoots well the PH’s will all be very pleased. I built my mom a 21” barreled 7/08 and loaded it with 140TTSX at about 2750fps.... it hammered everything as well. Including two zebras! Good luck, Benbo

Ben, welcome to the Campfire.
Thanks for the addititonal information.

Welcome Benbo. Good info you posted.

Daddy Rat
My 15year old son used his 308 Howa on plains game including Hartman zebra and Oryx without any issues. The load I developed for him was the 150grain accubond with 50 grains of cfe223, this load groups into half inch @100 yards with a chronoed velocity of 2,900fps .
Start at least 4 grains lower and work up.
I advise your daughter gets plenty of practice shooting of sticks it will really pay off.
If you want a great outfit to have a family hunt with I can highly recommended Osombahe Nord safaris run and owned by Harold and Liezel, a great family run hunting.
My wire, 15year old son and myself had a fantastic time along with the others in our group (2other hunters)
Go have fun with your family I garruntee it will be something you will remember for a lifetime.

Will add something to what was posted early on about my wife's success with 150-grain Nosler E-Tips in the .308 on a South African safari in 2008.

On that trip she used a handload that got around 2850 fps from her Serengeti custom rifle's 21-inch barrel, but not long afterward she started getting recoil headaches, and could not shoot that load from the light .308 (under 7 pounds scoped) without a headache starting on the very first shot. (Before anybody starts suggesting rifle fit as the problem, the stock was indeed custom-made to her dimensions. In fact she went to the Serengeti shop to have it fitted by their top stockmaker. It comes up with the scope right on whatever she's aiming at, and has a very soft recoil pad.)

Instead the problem started due to what happens to many of us in middle age. We become less flexible, and recoil can thus cause various things, one of the possibilities being headaches.

We decided to start downloading the round, and ended up with the 130-grain TTSX at just about the same muzzle velocity, and with a small muzzle brake recoil was reduced enough to allow Eileen to hunt with the rifle again. So far we have not been able to tell any difference in results on game between the 130 and 150-grain monolithics (Neither of us, in fact, have been able to detect any difference in the way "tipped" monolithics expand and penetrate, whether the is a TTSX, E-Tip or Hornady GMX.)

The biggest animal she's taken so far with the 130 TTSX load was the biggest cow elk either of us has killed, as large as many mature bulls. The elk stood quartering to the left on at around 200-250 yards, and the bullet landed just above the right shoulder joint, breaking the heavy bone and penetrating both lungs before ending up under the hide in the middle of ribs on the opposite side. Maybe a 150 would have exited, but I am not so sure, since we've seen a number of monolithics of various weights, including other TTSX's, from simiilar-sized animals (and some even smaller) in both North America and Africa.

What I do know is Eileen does not worry that her .308 might be too small for anything she might hunt either in Montana or elsewhere, and the trajectory of the 130 is just about exactly the same as a 150 at the same velocity, out to 300-350 yards, which is as far as she shoots at big game.

The powder charge for the 130 TTSX load is 45.0 grains of IMR4895, but could just as easily be any of other powders in the same burn-rate range.

That sounds much like the H4895/120TTSX load my teenage daughter shoots in her 20" 7mm-08 at 2,820fps. It's not very snorty but kills everything we have pointed it at, plus it digs deep.

I'd probably take something different for a PG hunt, but this is an interesting option for the .308.

I wrote one of the two reviews. Check it out.

https://cuttingedgebullets.com/308-135gr-er-extended-range-raptor

DF

Mule deer
The loads my son used were in a Howa 308 about 8# all up. Fortunately he's 15 an flexible.
I had the same problem with my Whelan as Eileen had with her 08. Getting old is a bitch they don't warn you about. Good to see you solved the problem for her.
Those monometals sure do do a great job, kill out of all proportion to their weight. Deadly is dead whether using 130grain or 220grain.
Give me the 130, gentler and just as deadly. I agree I would use your load on African PG the 140 guys outer edge mono worked on Hartman zebra and Oryx with thru and thru on both.
Enjoy your elk, the closest we get in Oz is the mighty sambar.
All the best to you,Eileen and the family for Christmas from my family.

25epps,

Yep, even though many people tell you about getting older, it usually doesn't sink in until you get there!

One of my pen-pals in in Australia sent me a copy of SECRETS OF THE SAMBAR, Volume 1, by Errol Mann. Don't know if you have seen it (my copy is one of 138 copies of a limited edition, and it's wonderful book, which makes me want to hunt them in Oz! Don't know if that will ever happen (have pretty much had my fill of flying around the world) but who knows?

Thanks very much. Hope you have a great Christmas as well,
John

With a .308, I would vote 150 or 165 gr. Barnes

Anybody tried the 155 Scenar?

DF

Getting old is not for sissy’s !!!


Lefty

Yeah buddy.

Daddy Rat
My son used a Howa 308 loaded with 150grain accubonds at 2,900 fps. He shot zebra, Oryx, warthog, blesbuck, heartebeast plus other game. No problems 10 very dead animals
Bob Nelson

My 15 year old son shot 10 head of plains game in Namibia from impala to zebra with a Howa 308 loaded with 50 grains of cfe223 at a chronoed velocity of 2,950fps. Result 10 very dead animals
Bob

The TTSX will allow you to concentrate on the point of exit.

The trip has been punched back to 7/2022. I am torn between the 168 tsx and the 165 Nosler partition. Both Bullets are shooting well with 44.0 grains rl-15. A slight nod in accuracy to the partition.

No brainer. I'd use the 165 Partition. If you want a mono, don't go above 150 gr's in the 308.

You could shoot 10 animals with each bullet at the same velocity side by side with the exact same shot placement and you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Use which ever on shoots the most accurately with lightest load.

The vast majority of her shots will likely be standing off of sticks and I would be surprise if she has a shot beyond a 175 yards and more than likely most shots will be under 125 with many at a 100 or less.

Remember, you pay for a wounded animal so most people when faced with a $500 bill for a wounded animal have a tendency to get closer.

Of the TWO (2) bullets listed by the OP, I'll take the TTSX all day long if for no other reason than penetration. Two holes are better than one and if they bleed, the trackers will find it...

Agree. I’ve seen ‘06-capacity cases fail to give even the 150-gr TSX/TTSX’s enough speed to adequately expand at long range on occasion, depending on resistance. I’d be a little more uncomfortable with the 160’s in the 308.

Excellent observations(s), but I kept my recommendations to the two bullets proffered by the OP.

It is interesting to look at the factory Barnes Vor-tx TTSX ballistic data and compare 130, 150 and 168 gr results.

https://www.barnesbullets.com/ammunition/vor-tx-rifle/

It wouldn't cut and paste very well. The 130's lag by 200ftlbs at 500yds and the 150 and 168 are virtually equal.

I haven't found much difference in "killing power" between various "premium" bullets in the 150-180 grain range in the.308 (or .30-06) on several safaris, including a couple of big cull shoots. From what I recall right now, the bullets have included the 150 Nosler E-Tip and AccuBond; 165 TSX, AccuBond and Partition; and 180 Hornady Interlock and Nosler Partition. There were probably others, but right now I'm too tired and lazy to look them up in my records, but they include a LOT of animals.

When put in the right place they all penetrated sufficiently to kill well on plains game including gemsbok, black and blue wildebeest, kudu, zebra, all in the 500-800 pound range.

That would also include the same general range of bullet weights and animals shot with the .270 Winchester, 7mm-08 Remington, 7x57 Mauser, .280 Remington, etc.If you shoot 'em in the right place, they pretty much fall over within 50 yards or less. If you don't, they wont.

Where's the hair-splitting loonyism in that, John??

I have always obsessed over the loads I use on plains game. Then, my PH buddy asked me to go out with him to fill a large order of meat he had received. I was to do the shooting with his 30/06 which was suppressed. We shot every female and youngster that we saw. Everything just fell over and I think just as quickly than anything I had ever used. Anyhow, he kept stuffing that rifle with a variety of different factory loads none of which were premium. Everything dropped at least as well as the premium bullets I used in my 270. Hard to admit but maybe a tad faster, maybe.

I left him with a large supply of 270 Fed Blue Box with 130’s and they worked really well also. I believe they are loaded with Speer Hot Cores.

Hard to admit but sometimes I think my load development is a waste of time.

I'm not surprised. Some of us rifle looney types forget that gazillions of animals fall to plain old soft points, year after year...

Guy

Rick,

Like you, have hunted with quite a few PHs--many of whom have also been cull hunters. Two I hunted with on a really big cull in 2007 had different choices in cull rifles. One liked the .308 Winchester with 180-grain Sierra GameKings, and the other the .270 Winchester with 130-grain Hornady Interlocks. Part of the deal, of course, is both could buy their bullet of choice at "affordable" prices--about the same price as Nosler Partitions cost here. (During the same month-long trip I visited the sporting goods store owned by one of the other PHs, Rob Klemp, in Kimberley. It was kind of astonishing to see all the green (Sierra) boxes on the bullet shelves, but a lot of cullers like them--and as you know, not all cullers use head-shots exclusively.

Then there's my now-retired PH friend Kevin Thomas, who was born and grew up in what was then Rhodesia and is now Zimbabwe. I hunted with him more than any other PH, and he culled hundreds of Cape buffalo on a big Rhodesian ranch with a .30-06 using 180-grain Partitions. This during the daytime, on herds pushed by him by ranch workers. Kevin says he never had any problems, even on mature bulls.

I'd LOVE to hear the back story on that.


Okie John

My personal experience is that a 308 with cup and core bullets in the 150 or 165/8 variety will do the job just fine on anything you hit well.

Premium bullets in a 308 is one of the most overthought subjects on the interwebs, IMHO.

If they both shoot well then take them both and do some testing. Good luck.