What do you think?

A lot of things have happened to me that did not seem so good at the time.

I agree. You are absolutely right and we can trust God 100%.

Some of what we learn after a lot of livin'.

wabigoon;
Good afternoon sir, I hope the day's been treating you folks right and all in your sphere are well.

That was my late father's favorite verse and despite half a lifetime of ill health, trials and tribulations he'd often quote it to me and believed it with all his heart.

What I've come to believe is that sometimes - if we're truly servants - then we're only vessels sometimes and what's happening to us isn't about us at all.

I'll wish you the best now and attempt to articulate and illustrate what I mean, but it's going to take a few.

Dwayne

I think a great many of us can relate to that.

Just because God can work incredible good out of unspeakable tragedies doesn't mean that He orchestrated the tragedies. Just because He used something bad doesn’t mean that He caused it...or that He needed it to accomplish His purposes.

“The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy.”

There ‘is’ an enemy, and he is out to sway us with hardships and troubles.

Well said!

Jonah may have had his wonderments at times. Job all the more so.

Wish i loved HIM more so some things would work out even mobetter.

Id like to talk to HIM about that little dead greasewood twig through my new tire.

Anyone believe there is any predestation involved?

Nope.

I’ve never considered myself to be at a level where I can judge for myself what’s good for me or not and the older I get the more clearly I see it.

The Heidelberg Catechism puts it nicely in its answer to question#1, “What is your only comfort in life & in death?”:

“That I am not my own,
but belong with body and soul,
both in life and in death,
to my faithful Saviour Jesus Christ.
He has fully paid for all my sins
with his precious blood,
and has set me free
from all the power of the devil.
He also preserves me in such a way
that without the will of my heavenly Father
not a hair can fall from my head;
indeed, all things must work together
for my salvation.
Therefore, by his Holy Spirit
he also assures me
of eternal life.
and makes me heartily willing and ready
from now on to live for him.”

I serve a God who has directed all of history in such a way as to call His people back to communion with Himself. Surely He can direct my little world whether I can see it or not.

Usually it’s the latter...

Nope.

He may have predetermined my purpose...but not my free will. I have the choice to accept or reject my purpose.

Huh?

How can God be God if He hasn’t “...chose(n) us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him”? (Eph 1:4)

For that matter, how can God’s word be inerrant if that isn’t the case? Of course there is predestination involved; God said so!

In the case of Joseph being sold into slavery by his brothers, I'd think there was both predestation, and Joseph feeling let down by God.

wabigoon;
Here's the story which I believe illustrates my reasons for believing the way I've come to believe.

In the fall of 2003, as I was doing some of the final touches on a 6 month renovation - during which time we'd been evacuated for a forest fire, had to bury my much loved father and have the reno go completely over budget for time and money - at the end of that I managed to tangle my left hand in the table saw and did my best to remove all 4 fingers.

Since I didn't completely remove them, I went for surgery and subsequently in the fullness of time needed to go for physio therapy.

One of the basic tenets I've come to live by is to be very intentional in communicating who I am and what I believe as quickly as polite conversation allows. I've found life is easier for all parties if this is accomplished, so in short order my physio lady knew I was a married father who worked with horses and hunted.

As an aside wabigoon, I've had a few folks comment that I look "exactly like that" - sometimes when it's not meant as a compliment!

Upon entering the room then I dropped my cowboy hat on the chair on top of my Carhartt jacket and sat down, making the aforementioned introductions as she worked on my hand.

While I can't recall exactly what we talked about, I felt she asked a fair number of questions of me while being fairly thrifty about her information, but I felt that was her prerogative and carried on.

During the second visit, partially through the hour long session as we chatted, she stopped and looked me in the eye and said the following...

"I grew up in an atheistic family who were also devout vegans. When I became a physiotherapist, I went to the US to finish my training and there met my husband who is a devout Christian."

She continued, "I converted to Christianity and he became a vegetarian for me, as well as moving up here to Canada with me. We had a little boy who is now 2 (I believe that was the age - sorry) and we have been praying asking God for specific answers to some parenting questions. We've had our care group praying for us as well."

At this point wabigoon she looked me in the eyes, not super happy at all and she continued, "When you came in the other day you answered one of those questions and I didn't say anything at the time"..

I muttered something about, "God does work in mysterious ways I guess..." and she cut me off..

"No you don't get it!" she was now raising her voice, but she had a hold of my hand so I wasn't going anywhere, you know?

"I went home from work and told my husband, not that little cowboy! God can't send that little cowboy after praying all this time! He stands for everything I hate"

For once in my life I was speechless wabigoon. I looked into her eyes praying fervently for wisdom, as that's a bit of a tough position to comment intelligently from if you know where I'm coming from.

Her eyes narrowed and she then said, "Since you've been here today you've answered two more, so I guess you're it and I'm still not really happy with God about it."

You have to understand wabigoon that from that time until the last physio session, I began the session with at least 5 minutes of prayer asking God for wisdom because this rough around the edges, part time cowboy didn't feel like I had much to share....

In the final analysis then wabigoon and in all honestly, I really didn't learn a whole lot when I stuck my hand in the saw. I'd still get impatient and do stupid things with power tools and equipment, though I'd been learning to control my temper with the horses by then - another story for another day.

But that all said, I've come to believe it was about her, her husband and their son. In that case all things did work together for good or hopefully I can be forgiven for believing that to be true.

Lastly I'd think that if we'd have gone to the same church - which we were several towns apart so wouldn't have happened, she wouldn't have approached a guy with a mountain sheep belt buckle and buckaroo style cowboy boots on you know?

They're Boulett by the way which is the brand of choice I believe for Sam Olson - a stylish rancher if ever there was one.

All the best to you folks wabigoon.

Dwayne

What they intended for him was his harm, but...God used it for his good.

Thank you every so much Dwayne.

Now I'm thinking on my on my old , ever believe you've done "Angel Duty"? Much as Dwayne described.

You could say He “predestined” it for good.

Like when He hardened Pharaoh’s heart...

I think the good spoken of in verse 28 is revealed in verse 29.....that they may be conformed to the likeness of His Son.

YOU might say that. But I don’t.

Now we are gettin' somewhere, disagreement!

I have a serious question about predestination. I consider myself a God fearing man. But I've always had issues with the idea of a "plan" for me. My belief is that the rules are laid out but I have free will and I make my own decisions in life, good and bad. Here's the question I have asked several people over the years and I have never gotten what seems to be a logical answer. If my path is set and I am not making all my own destination choices throughout my life, how can I be judged?

Splendid question Jake. I don't know. I wonder the same myself.

At times I feel like I've been put on this earth for a purpose.

According to Scripture God’s ordering of the universe is such that there is room for both His sovereign plan and my/our free will. It’s mysterious and it jacks with my head, but it is what it is. If I could “get it” I’d honestly begin to doubt my faith; my inability to grasp Christianity is a reason I believe it so firmly.

On the other hand there is the truth that God is God and He says He has a plan and that I am to be judged according to my choices. So, one could say in answer to your question, “because He said so,” and be right.

But that wouldn’t be to say that it doesn’t cause me to bend mental pretzels trying to make sense of it.

To get to what I believe is the bottom of it for me when I’m in doubt, however, the question has to be (if it’s either or as we humans always want it to be) “in what world would I be most comfortable; one in which God is in full control, or one in which I am?”

That’s an easy question for me to answer.

Romans 9 answers this, but we don't like the answer.

That’s the cool thing tho; you don’t have to .

So it’s not good enough for ‘you’ to just believe what ‘you’ choose. You also don’t want others to believe what ‘you’ don’t want them to. Got it.

You quote John 3:16 all the time. It’s one of the most widely quoted and famous Bible verses. It’s been called the "Gospel in a nutshell" because it summarizes the central theme of following Jesus.

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believed in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

To me, ”whosoever” means just that.

It doesn’t say ‘whosoever I predetermined.’

I have to base everything I believe on scripture. Scripture indicates God chose us, so I believe in predestination. Wabi, you should have posted the next few scriptures. The next 2 scriptures after your posted Romans 8:28 seem to confirm this.

Romans 8:29
For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of the Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

Romans 8:30
And those He PREDESTINED, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified.

Romans 8:31
If God is for us, who can be against us?

Ephesians 1:5
He predestined us to be adopted as His sons through Jesus, in accordance with His pleasure and will.

Ephesians 1:11
In Him, we were also CHOSEN, having been PREDESTINED according to the plan of Him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of His will.

John 6:44
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him and will raise him up at the last day.

God knows in advance which dogs are going to return to their own vomit. God also has known before the foundation of the earth who is His and who isn’t.

How does one know? If you believe, you are; if you don’t believe, you’re not.

I've struggled with that part of Romans. Jacob have I loved, & Esau have I hated. I've come to belief He's talking in a spiritual sense. He'll have mercy on who He choses. He hardened pharaohs heart to show His power. I don't believe in Calvinism though. It goes against to much scripture. Also doesn't match God's characteristics as I read & understand Him. You folks have a blessed evening.

I thought the romans us the ones that kilt the Jesus.

Interesting question there, but it provokes a question of my own: exactly WHO is "chosen in him before the foundation of the world," each individual, or a group that was going to come to be in the future?

My own position is that God already knows the outcome simply because He is God, but allows us to choose our own paths to our destinations which are chosen via free will. On the other hand, I do believe there are or can be "waypoints" in our lives that cannot be evaded (re: Jonah).

The book of Jonah is interesting because Jonah was not able to evade his mission in Nineveh, but the mission was seemingly to warn others that they must make a choice. I think that tickles the mind a bit.

Thanks all good folks, this is a good thread, I'm learning.

I believe you’re missing the point good sir.

That is that it matters not what you or I believe. If I believe I can fly does that mean I could go to a high spot, jump off and do so?

Our belief (mine isn’t any more important than yours) has no bearing upon determining what is true.

That was my point. This stuff is “Soli deo gloria” no matter how vehemently the Adam in us may object.

According to the Scriptures natural man is blind concerning the things of salvation and his heart is depraved as a result of Adam’s sin which is ours as “mankind”. The Spirit opens our eyes to see Christ and His gracious offer of righteousness in God’s eyes as a result of His active & passive obedience, death, and resurrection. He also allows us to see ourselves as we truly are, moving us to our knees in humble subservience and service due to the gratitude this grace inevitably engenders in us.

This is the beauty of the Gospel that “while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us...”

We are far, far, worse off then we could possibly imagine but God is far, far, far more gracious than we could fathom too.

So “whosoever” will come are in fact those whom God has predestined.

We can choose to do bad or good. If good, we should take the credit; if bad, we must accept responsibility. Of course, there may also be those times that stuff just happens. When we experience bad stuff, we are not being punished here on Earth. When we experience good stuff, we are not being rewarded either unless the good stuff is a direct result of our efforts. Middle Eastern peoples are usually strong believers in preordained life. This is a handy excuse for human failings. GD

Perhaps to some. To those who recognize their depravity and God’s Grace toward them in spite of that it is a source of unspeakable gratitude.

Me earning what I get is most definitely NOT good news. That’d be horribly bad news, at least if the scriptures are tue.

I'll just put this in if I may?

Evaluated experience is often the best of teachers.

Brother it’s your thread you post what ya like!

Since you said you’re worshipping w/ Presbyterians now, ya might like this:

A while back someone said in regards to Jesus giving Himself to sacrifice. He would have done It just for me.

Seems like I had to learn Everything the hard way. God must have a lot of patience with me. 🤠

Absolute troof there; particularly when evaluated through the lens of scripture.

Years back, I read in the Sporting News, in regards to baseball trades, 'Some of the best trades are the ones you don't make"

Lots of people want to go to heaven but still don't want to die. You can't have it both ways. There in "no good thing dwelling in our flesh"

"God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose" is a true scripture, but I am pretty sure the focus in on the afterlife, not the present one.

The flesh doesn't get saved. The soul and spirit do. Salvation is 100% good, but we all must die once, and after that is judgement.

Jesus Himself said "For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it." That's His salvation and that is VERY good.

But those that think God is there to give them a good and perfect natural life have never read the Bible. Remember, even the 12 original apostles all died. None of us are better then they were.

This. I make my choice to ask Him into my heart to save me. Everyone else has that choice. HE did not predetermine some would reject HIM and be punished, though HE knew us in our mothers womb and knew beforehand who would.

We are responsible for making our future with or without HIM. Its on us, not Him. HE doesnt give some a chance to save themselve and give others no chance and a death sentence before birth.

All have the chance to repent and believe, though Satan hardens many hearts in his fight for them and in his effort to defeat Christ in the battle for HIS.

GOD gave us free will. You can choose life or death. HE doesnt take your name out of the BOOK OF LIFE. You can. The choice is yours.

^^^This^^^

Not one of the easiest passages to hear, and no less true.

As good as this thread is, we are mostly preaching to the choir. I do hope someone that may be on the fence will read and, we can help lead them to Our Lord.

No one has any chance to save themselves. If we did, Christ would have died for nothing according to Paul in his letter to the Galatians (chapter 2).

We aren’t “pretty sick” in trespasses and sins we’re DEAD (Eph 2). Try laying the cure for some disease next to a corpse, reassuring it that “the cure for your disease is right there; take it up and be healed!”

Extreme and untold gratitude must arrest the heart of those of us who have been awakened from death to newness of life! It’s an unfathomable miracle. And it’s done for us. Those who are not awakened get justice even as Christ has suffered God’s wrath for our sins. It’s a wonder that God has called any at all; if we were paid our just reward we’d all be doomed.

Amazing grace indeed!!!!!

I like to post this.

THAT is an enlightening and different perspective. Thanks for that.

I, in no way disagree. To play point/counterpoint, as in reference to Job’s seeming misfortunes, “when God sends you tribulation, he expects you to tribulate.” An elder black woman friend of mine told me that. Her name was Willa Dorsey.

Although not deserving of Heaven - I believe in Christ - and will beg "the mercy of the court" !!!

Romans 8:29 let's us know why verse 28 is so. All things that happen to those whom He calls is -- to take on the likeness of Jesus.
Saying bad things happening to you, like a hurricane, are really good is NUTS! Unless they are part of God's molding my character to be like that of His Son.

What a comfort to know history is not "just one blankety-blank thing after another" (per Mark Twain's godless perspective.)

Willa Dorsey the gospel singer...?

We went to the same school.

Yes sir.

All who do so, no matter their beliefs concerning predestination, will receive grace if that is their plea.

I hope that’s something we can all agree upon.

Thank you elf, you made the thread easy to find tonight.

That’s pretty cool.

Im thinking reaching out to God for HIS saving grace could maybe be interpreted as saving ones self, like reaching out and grabbing that root to the tree of life as one is drowning in the river of life.

So sad, even many on this forum enjoy having a having heart. Some really back away form having anything to do with an open Christian, "God peddler".

They must be afraid it's "Contagious".

That’s a fine analogy.

That's my life in a nutshell. I realize that if anything different had happened, it could have turned out really bad, even though at the time I thought things were bad. Everything lead to my good life I enjoy today with my family.

If a person is predistined to be saved or go to hell, there is no reason for a Bible or, for that matter, possibly even the Lords life or crucifixion.

Who needs to witness or go to church. Everyone is already predestined to go to heaven or hell. Why contribute money to the church? To buy a better spot in heaven? You dont need to work out (pay for out of gratitude) your salvation.

Your name would already be written innthe book of life or not? Why ask forgiveness of your sins? They have already been forgiven or not? Why repent of your sins or turn away from them. Youre already going to heaven or hell and cant do anything about it.

Hey, we dont need to get up and go to church on Sunday, Wabi.

Ill see you on the flipper, if we are both lucky.

I like going to church Doc. I keep buying ,and printing country Gospel to Pastor Missy, this is one

Predestination means God is making these little dumbassed critters in HiS image and saying, you're wonderful. You're gonna be saved. Then HE makes another and says you're wonderful, because you are made in my image, and everything i make is wonderful, but tough luck sucker. You're going to Hell. One for ME and one for him.
I gotta be fair, pal. Tough luck, kid. I didnt have my sons blood spilled to wash away your sins.

In fact sucker, i lied. You can not get to heaven, have your sins forgiven or be saved. You can ask for Me to come into your heart, forgive your sins, and make you believe but sorry pal, i lied, youre SOL.
I was kidding when i said, knock and the door will be opened, ask and you will recieve. BS. It was a lie.

I enjoy these threads. You men are addressing the tougher things most churches won't touch. It's hard to find a church with a good Bible study.

I guess that's one way to put it Doc.

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Jive, ive never thouggt much on predestination and didnt know what i thought. Until i read some on this thread.
Just a little bit ago, on my couch i began thinking about this, and believe it or not it seemed i was hit with a revelation, and that resulted in my 2 previous posts.

Well, that is what was revealed to me in almost the blink of an eye it seemed. Well, actualky like in 2 subsequent revelations.

I dont swear to know where those revelations came from, whether from HIM or him. But, i think i know who it was, and now i think i know the answer.

I think that if you knock, the door will be opened. If you dont, it wont.

Agreed. This is how I see it...it’s as if God is inviting you to participate in an adoption process, but you’re not the one doing the adoption, you’re the one being adopted. You get to choose whether or not you want to be adopted. And if you say “yes”, God is more than happy to adopt you into His family. Because of what Jesus has done on the front end to make that possible.

Salvation is the greatest "Bargain" in all the history of man.

Amen!!!

I am thrilled with the way this thread has worked out, may our Lord Bless all!

As a young architect I pondered exactly that... was I nothing more than a Number 2 pencil in the hand of God?

When I was challenged... I was forced to learn more...

More challenge... and more learning.

Then I came to realize the skill was not in what I knew, but what I actually didn't know... AND how the unknown was actually solved.

"Confidence begets confidence" is the only way I know to put it.

God predetermined the outcome by allowing choice in the process of the solving.

Somewhat Freudian... but ultimately Freud slipped on his own banana peel.

If my salvation or damnation was already determined, I am no more than a dog, and have nothing to do with the matter.

If I was predestined, I'm free to go and rape and pillage and kill. Wad Hitler predistined for Heaven?

If i dont have a choice, why the hell was i even given something worthless like free will?

Free will would have no purpose.

I'm real late to this, but glad that you all had a good talk about the Good News.

Welcome aboard Frank.

It’s my understanding that you’re a believer in an inerrant scripture, correct?

If so, wrestle not with your thinking on your idea of predestination but with what ALL the Bible has to say.

I don’t say that at all in the spirit of anger or argumentation but simply as one bible believing brother to another.

So, if im predestined, why should i witness to those who are predestined to Hell? Why should i tithe? Why should i stand in Church and make a joyful noise? Why should i contribute to foreign missions?

I think you follow errant scripture.

For God so loved a few in the world....

Thanks Richard.

This evening an old friend and I talked Bible while you all talked Bible. LOL!
He got saved last month and is part of our family now!

Was this for all, or just a few?

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

I realize, HE knew us in our mothers womb, and knew beforehand who would do what, but HE sentenced none to death and hell fire by HIS creation of them.

Also, I'm not going by scripture only HE fully understands. Im going by what HE told me a little while ago.
You believe as you wish, for every Bible scholar who believes as they do, they, like you, can provide scripture to support their case.

If you study church history you’ll find that those who have my understanding of this issue have been amongst the most active in doing the things that you lay forth above. The reason for that those are the means that God has appointed by which He effects His plan. He has granted the preaching of the Gospel, prayer, and faithful observance of the sacraments unimaginable power in enlightening the otherwise dark souls of countless people through the ages. It’s His appointment that gives us boldness to continue and to be faithful to those means which seem foolish to unregenerate men.

The caricature that human reason creates of predestination is not that which is understood by those who adhere to it. All your thoughts make sense if the question is viewed from a purely human standpoint, but there is a rich mystery in God’s ways which transcend those of men. Hence my encouragement that you study; I meant no offense.

God has loved a great many in the world and showed it by the grift of His Son in whom we find redemption. It is not a few but a great (and getting ever greater) multitude.

Grace & peace to you sir.

Praise God for that and welcome to the conversation!

I have no use for church history. Christians have died by the thousands to bring me HIS message for me.

It says, knock, and the door will be opened. Seek and yee shall find. I believe those words of instruction HE gave to me in the Bible, which HE said is His word, which I accept as His message of instruction to me. HE gave that message of instruction to all, for all. None are cursed before their birth. That would not be justified.

He is just.

Again I believe as you do; all who repent and turn in faith to Christ will receive salvation with full assurance of pardon.



Yeah continuationism makes conversations about biblical interpretation pretty difficult.

I was seeking to explain what I believe not necessarily convince you that I’m right, although that’d be nice too.

At any rate I wish you well.

Wait you have no use for Church history?

You do know that the fact that “Christians have died by the thousands to bring me HIS message for me” is Church history, right?

And just to be clear... justice would send us all to hell. Jesus Christ came and bore our sins on Himself after He lived a sinless life. That’s not justice, thank God! That’s grace!!!!!

Anyway be well man take care.

Just tell me, if I or others are predestined, why should i need to testify?

BTW, its so easy even a child can understand, yet you depend on a plethora of church history?

Because God uses our telling of the hope that is in us to bring people to faith. Preaching of the word is a means by which He effects salvation. He said so in His word.

Predestination is a holy mystery man. It isn’t like I wear it as a badge or “get out of jail free card”. It doesn’t mean that someone can go through life and sin like crazy never bending the knee in faith to Christ because it’s pre-appointed. It’s just the recognition that man’s heart is darkened by sin and what we see experientially as us making a decision is actually the logical conclusion of a gracious God calling us to Himself.

It isn’t rational; that’s why one can’t come to it by reasoning alone but only through a study of the Scriptures.

If any are predestined, this is a lie.

"That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved."Aug 25, 2017

HE made it so anyone who chooses can be saved. HE does not lie. Do this and you will live forever. If it were not so, HE would not have said so.

Where did I rely on “a plethora of church history”?

All I said that was that if you’re familiar with Church history (in this country that’s American history) you’d see that the Presbyterians have been faithful in doing the things you asked why one should do.

That’s all. If that’s a plethora I am misinformed as to the meaning of plethora.

Predestination does not set aside any of that.

Good night!

There is no reason to bring people to faith, if they are predestined to die. If they are predestined to live, our words have no effect and are worthless.

When I have a question about a doctrine, I like to define the terms first. I think that I recognized Acts 2:38.
The word "repent" came up along with believe.
Believe is mentioned in the book I'm reading right now, John. It's used andtranslated "faith" in other parts of the Bible.
Ie. John 3:16 whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Epesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved by faith.

Both come from the same Greek word.

How do your pastors define the word Repent?

Who so ever, bro, not who so ever is predestined.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life. ... For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

You can believe. I did it. You can too. Just ask HIM into your heart. Pray and ask HIM to make you believe. Ask HIM to help you with your disbelief. Ask HIM to make you love HIM.

HE will enter in. He made you in HIS image. HE loves you. HE weeps for you, as you would a lost child. HE wants you with Him.

You arent predestined to Hell. He sent His only begotten son, JESUS CHRIST for all, including you, to shed HIS blood to purify YOU. Ask HIM into your heart to save you and see. If HE doesnt answer, then chalk it up to predestiny.

Buona notte😴

I thought you guys dozed off.
Im getting ready to, but that's a good verse to meditate on. .....not like the hindus with mantras, but like Christians.

Jaguartx and anyone else who reads this.

Here's a blessing to discover that goes with your point.

Take a KJ Bible. The others leave some out unfortunately.

Read a chapter a day from the gospel of JOHN. I almost forgot to say that.
Underline every time you see a form of the word believe...th, s, ed.
Count them up in every chapter and circle the times its used in each.
At the end, add up the sum and tell me what you came up with.

This will doubtless become a faith building blessing.

Didnt John get taken on a trip to Heaven and then back to earth?

Paul said,
I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

I'm not sure if John could tell either. That's something I should look up. We do know that he must have been there in Spirit to say all that he wrote.

My challenge was just the gospel of John, concerning the word believe.

We know that God is for us because Jesus died for us...not because things always work out for us.

Dear Jaguar, you are absolutely 100% correct.

Dear efw, you are absolutely 100% correct.

God bless you both, my brothers.

The idea of predestination is not something that theologians pulled out of thin air. It is something that is written about in depth. Sitting on a couch pondering navel lint and predestination won’t give a man a good understanding of what it is. Assuming that predestination is single or double without reading the text of scripture isn’t gonna help a guy understand it at all.

Predestination is one of the hardest concepts to understand in scripture. We live downstream of many thinkers and it’s hard for us to wade through all of the logic. I few years ago I finally found a good place to start. It was helpful to contrast the views of Calvin and Luther on this subject. Platonic and Aristotelian logic also influences our modern understanding. This doesn’t come to a man while sitting on a couch gazing at his navel while having an esoteric experience.

Free will. Being born into sin, inheriting a sinful nature, committing sin, not seeking God (no one seeks God; Romans), dead in trespasses and sin, how can a man consider that he has a free will? What is that freedom? Do you mean a fully free will that had full knowledge of good and evil? Is a fallen man capable of making a pure moral choice? What are the confines and ability of a fallen sinful will? What binds it? What limits it? Is the human will capable of free fully informed moral agency? Is the human will limited by the fact that we are born sinful? How can a dead man know a thing?

Well, what I know about all of this is the Holy Spirit pursued me and convicted me of my sin, and of my need for forgiveness. Before I quit fighting that conviction (and guilt) and confessed my sin and submitted myself to God, I was a different person than I am now. I was not interested in hearing about God or the bible, and I was not interested in giving up the sinful habits and behaviors I was practicing. Things changed, and even though I still need to confess my sin and ask His forgiveness daily, I am a totally different person when it comes to matters of Christian brotherhood, love of others, and a desire for, and pleasure when, seeing others come to belief in Christ.

"We love because He first loved us". To us free will is real, but "God's ways are not our ways, and neither are His thoughts our thoughts". I just thank God, that I am one of His, and that Jesus' blood paid the debt I owed for my sin.

I pray that any reading this thread who don't know Jesus will listen to that part of you that knows you need to be honest with God, confess that you're a sinner, ask Him for forgiveness, and believe and receive eternal salvation in the name of His Son, Jesus Christ. .

May God bless you all.

bludog

Good morning good folks, I tried putting up a Norman Peale quote, no luck.

There were experts who were well versed in the particulars of and letter of the Law back in the days of Jesus, too.

Fifty some years ago, I tried my best to lead a young man to Jesus. He kept telling me, I don't want to pay the price. I kept telling him, The price has been paid.

Many years later, I do believe he did find Our Lord.

Bludog excellent description of being born again. Your words are just as I remember God dealing with me.
Happened in the Spring of 2010. My righteousness is as filthy rags before the Lord, but I have righteousness from God through faith in Christ.

Verse for today:

Humble yourself before the Lord and He will lift you up in honor.
James 4:10

bludog

My face was in the dirt. Sick, scared and tired. I saw and heard things like never before.

It was the best day of my new life. Thank you Jesus.

Amen



Amen

Why? You're destined to hell or heaven already. Noting you can do about it. Eat, drink and do Mary.

God bless you Jag.

In John 6:35-44 and John 10:25-30, the Lord told unbelievers that they will only believe if the Father has given them to Him and chosen them for His sheep. Unbelievers have no free choice to choose Jesus, BUT the Father’s choosing of them gives them that freedom.

Predestination is pure grace and the pure assurance of salvation. Freedom(of choice) is as much or more a gift as salvation itself. No one outside of Jesus is free or can choose salvation.

We are not free to obey until Jesus frees us in some way. If you are free in Jesus, you are free indeed.

God is “the hound of heaven”, and He pursues and chases those He chooses (because He is sovereign). When God finds you and confronts you with His amazing grace, you can’t say no. Paul the apostle is a great example.

We can only try to understand what scripture says and not put our feelings or mindset into it to twist it around and make it say something to make us feel better.

Free grace comes at God’s discretion and not ours. He is sovereign and in control.

With all due respect this argument is tired and tangent to the issue. I’ve heard this argument given during conversations, read it numerous times on the internet in such discussions and have been guilty of making the argument myself.

It was when I used it and still remains an argument out of ignorance of the topic at hand. Such arguments demonstrate a lack of study of both sides of the discussion and the respective supporting scriptures and defenses. As such, this and similar arguments represent one “what is wrong” instance in American Evangelicalism, an inability and/or unwillingness to take an honest look at personal views and actually wrestle with scripture.

Been there. Done that. Burned the tshirt and not gonna go back.

Added thought.

A basis for the discussion can be seen in the doctrine of the Cross and the doctrine of glory. Plenty of good articles on the net to launch the brain off into thought.

As have I brother.

The ignorance of one’s place in the stream of Christian thought and how the cultural presuppositions in which we’re steeped and have adopted often unconsciously make for an inability to approach God’s word with the humility necessary for understanding.

Particularly the nearly universally accepted lie of Rousseuian “blank slate” philosophy.

Study of the contrasts between theologies of Cross vs Glory are indeed excellent places from which to start!

That doesn't apply to everyone and everything they do. Some things are irremediably evil and good never comes out of them. It's part of free will.

For instance, Islam taking over the Holy Land.

Right now I can't post an image.
"God works in mysterious ways".

The gospel is simple. Why complicate it...?

Schizophrenic

Paul probably had a sense of humor too. I think that you are joking aren't you?

Good evening men, I can't post from Youtube, maybe later.

Jesus and his apostles walk into a restaurant...

Jesus: Table for 26 please.

Hostess: But there’s only 13 of you.

Jesus: We like to all sit on one side of the table.

That took a while!

Opps, should not have done that.

Predestination is from God's point of view as He is beyond time. He knows everything from beginning to end. Free will is we still have a choice to repent and choose Jesus as our Lord and Savior to be saved. We don't know the future, only God does.

Im still trying to figure out if HE wrote the Bible for instruction for every one. If HE did, and HE sentenced some to hell before born, would HE still tell everyone to Ask and yee shall recieve. That would be a lie, if you asked and had no chance of recieving, wouldnt it?

Why would HE say, knock and the door would be opened? Did HE mean the door to hell for somr and thr door to heaven for others?

Inquiring minds, you know. Pesky little things in the grand scheme of things, you know, like, it's so easy a child can understand?

Darn. Too bad I'm not a little child.

Call me a child, IT, is not all that hard to understand.

It doesn’t appear that you are trying to figure anything out but rather repeating the same statements throughout the thread. It’s a good study and several good starting points have been suggested.

I avoid Paul like the plague. He doesn't agree with Jesus on some very important points, nor with John the Baptist or Jesus' brother James. He seems to me to be a usurper and a fraud. He obviously didn't have access to the information available in the gospels or he would have known he was at variance with Jesus and might have covered his tracks a bit more carefully. If salvation can't be gained by following Jesus, John, and the old bible please explain. I think Jesus had plenty of time in 3+ years to say what he wished to say without Paul coming along and putting words in his mouth.In Revelations Jesus commended the Ephesians for getting shed of false apostles. Paul himself in a letter to Timothy lamented "that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me". Ephesus was the premier city in Asia which Jesus commended for rooting out claimed apostles. Paul was spirited away from the holy land and hauled to Rome more as a witness protection scheme by the Romans than any claim made that he had a right to appear before Caesar. And Paul probably would have been fat and happy in Rome if his sponsors would have maintained power. Someone (probably Nero) probably had him killed. Just read his letters promoting slave obedience, telling women to be quiet, and endorsing civil government as an instrument of God for the good.

Well said

A Joyful noise.

Those first century Jesus followers likely had no concern for the complicated theologies that are so apparent nowadays, and cause so much discord. But they knew the simple message of the gospel. They knew that Jesus loved em’, and they knew if they repented, and received God’s gift of grace, that Jesus would walk through this life with them. And they could also spend eternity in His presence. And they knew these things before the Bible even existed.

Amen good man!

Off to church shortly.

Hebrews 5:11-end tells a different story. The recipients of that letter were denounced for their lack of understanding. The same can be said for all who were the subject of the epistles which Paul wrote to correct errors in doctrine and practice.

Predestination - The vast majority of the most respected theologians believe in it. There's also some very respected theologians who don't. Its not a heaven or hell issue. Based on MY experience, and the experience of all (true) Christians I know, I had absolutely nothing to do with my salvation.

When one comes to the conclusion that they had nothing to do with their salvation, there is the deepest sense of gratitude and duty. Its a very humbling perspective, quite the opposite of the perception of the critics, that predestination leads to a careless attitude. It was a stunning paradigm shift when it happened to me.

+1

I want to get to know my God and the high things of His revelation to us out of love and devotion.

I love and am devoted to my wife; I show it by constantly seeking to know her better. I didn’t walk out of our wedding after having kissed the bride and exclaim, “well let’s not over complicate this relationship; this is as well as I’m ever going to get to know her!” No, as an expression of my love for her I have sought to delve into the depths of her soul and know her like I have never known another human being.

Same goes for God. If a knowledge the level of Sunday school songs is good enough for you go back to my analogy above and ask yourself if that would please your wife.

Not a salvation issue... the thief on the cross clearly never had the chance to get to know his LORD better... but we do. And our desires tell us (and the LORD) everything we need to know about what we truly worship.

Grace begets gratitude and gratitude humble, selfless action often in the direction we least want to go. That’s why He said “take up your cross and follow me” and “anyone who loses His life for my sake will find it”.

At least that’s been my experience.

Amen; I am unspeakably grateful I have not been given what I deserve!

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Hebrews 11:6

I’m attracted to the faith modeled by our first century brothers and sisters who had no Bible. They advanced the Gospel modeled by Jesus and the apostles. They risked persecution and death to promote a faith that was compelling, defensible, and attractive. Christianity spread like an airborne disease...especially during its extreme persecution years...before the Bible ever existed.

God doesn't look after the "Wish" department, he looks after the "I DO" department

I have read your posts here for a long time. You are a strong man in many ways. Give the "LOVE HIM COMPLETELY IN EVERY SECOND OF EVERY DAY SENSE AND SHOW IT TO HIM IN YOUR ACTIONS AND WORDS AND THOUGHTS", and I will guarantee you there will be a lot more good on your path through life, than bad.

Go ahead, give it a try, you have NOTHING to lose.

Miss Lynn

This morning our minister had some interesting words. Like you start to mimic an accent over a long time.

Staring close to Jesus makes you more like Him.

Thanks for the kind words.
It was tongue in cheek, Miss Lynn, meaning that if i loved HIM more, more things would work out for me "mobetter".

Yes, i do love HIM, but often fail in putting HIM first, expecially if I stub my toe.

Take care and GOD bless.

I get you on the stubbed toe part, seems I have more toes than most some days

Lynn

Surely you know the danger of one verse theology.

As previously mentioned, the majority of the most respected theologians, who know a lot more about scripture than me and you, believe in predestination. Other well respected theologians dont (John Wesley). We aren't going to settle this at the campfire I can promise you. I base my belief on what happened to me, my experience.

What I have noticed is that free will believers get defensive about the subject and predestination believers dont.

We ALL are free will believers and find God’s sovereignty offensive; that was the central nature of the Fall, no?

Adam & Eve resented God’s claim over them as Creator which sowed doubt in His word and an idea that they could define themselves apart from Him. That’s the ultimate free will theology.

God is, was, and has always been the pursuer in the story of redemption. Man has always and will continue to run the other way.

That’s what makes grace so amazing.

We all need to strive to be more like Jesus. we will, of course never secede, we need to keep trying!

When Paul uses the word predestined in Romans 8 the part of speech is a verb. God acts man/mankind is the recipient of that action.

It may rub your hair up backwards then set it on fire but words have meaning.

I can't help but feel like maybe the entire free will vs. predestination argument is a misguided distraction brought on by inability to comprehend God. "My ways are not your ways."

All I know is I believe that I CHOSE to be a believer. If I'm wrong about that and God made me believe than I suppose I'll just roll with it. Six of one or a half dozen of the other. I'm good with it.

Next?

Many are "called", is the free will part up to us?

Slow net won't let me do anything but type just now.

Food for thought. Without regard to theology, look at it logically. God and Jesus CHOSE every character in the Bible. So it is different now?

Free will believers should at least take the time to listen to the many lessons/sermons/studies on the subject by RC.

Thanks to all the kind folks that have chimed in. The main/only thing is to Believe!

That is but one of many. We are predestined. The sun and moon are predestined. And, not to heaven or hell. If we were, then Jesus's blood would not have been shed for all of us. In fact, He wouldnt have need to die at all. His blood was shed for all.

The moon and stars are predistined. HE never said some are predestined to heaven or that some are predestined to hell. That would not be just. It would be unjust.
We are predestined to live, to be born in his image. To have free will. To be able to choose good or evil, unlike a cat or dog.

It is predestined that we have rain.

Behold the Lamb of God who taketh away the sin of the world. Straight is the gate, & narrow the way that leadeth to life. Strive to enter in at the straight gate. Good morning & Godbless.

What if you believe something that is just not true?

You continually throw up the straw man argument of double predestination without addressing the specific verses that use the word. You are the only one here talking about that false teaching. The Bible does not teach double predestination but it certainly does teach about predestination.

Does it matter? Yes. It’s the most controversial subject in Christian doctrine. The division is the question of whether we are helping God save us or whether we recognize that God saves us without our help. It’s the idea of something earned vs a gift. The scripture has much to say about salvation being a gift and much to say about it not being earned.

It is a gift, but can one not refuse the gift. One can also accept a gift. The gift comes from the Giver of all good things, but the recipient can be prideful & refuse. They could also of a humble & broken heart receive the gift that is already paid for in full. Ultimately God's Holy Spirit must deal with a person before they can receive the gift of salvation. At least that has been my personal experience.

Pretty simple. Nothing controversial about that. To me, accepting a gift is ‘not’ the same as earning a gift.
I can also refuse to accept a gift.

Good morning good folks!

Two thoughts.

Hastings, I believe for many reasons, The Faith just rings True like a bell. I see God all over His wonderful creation.

On a lighter note, a minister years ago, told of a group of young children on a trip to a farm. A boy said a dole looking mule must be a Christian mule because he looked so sad. Being a Christian is not at all a sad thing, it's the happiest thing in the world!

^^^This.^^^

To me, He died for the sins of ‘all’ of the people, in ‘all’ of the world...’not’ just some of em’.

I love to listen to Alan Jackson say, Blood, Georgia accent, I guess.

Well, according to some, He wasted His blood on some who had no chance of having their sins washed away, unless they had their sins washed away and are going to Hell anyway.

Here is a question about salvation. Did Nebuchadnezzar receive salvation? I say he did. He never knew Jesus but he did accept the God of Israel. Daniel 4: 34-37.

So what...? To me, their relationship with God is no more legitimate than anyone else’s is. The “most respected theologians” of Jesus’ day were the Pharisees and the Sadducees. He made it pretty clear what His opinion of their theology was. Agreed.

It's so simple, ask Him.

Antlers, with all due respect, to say "so what" about the conclusions of Augustine, Thomas Aquinas, Martin Luther, John Calvin, and Jonathan Edwards, is a reckless statement. Predestination could very well be the only deep theological debate that they all agree on. To not take seriously the one issue they all agree upon is dangerous. Also, if you completely read through all of Paul's epistles with the sole purpose of determining how he would answer the question, I guarantee the only conclusion that you will come to is that Paul is teaching predestination.

Heaven and hell issue - it can quickly become one if Man believes he is responsible in any way for his salvation.

Please take the time to listen to RC link posted above.

Just = we are all sentenced to hell for our sin.

Grace = Some were predestined for salvation.

If you don't believe God is capable of choosing some and not others then you haven't read the Bible.

Man is incapable of seeking God without first God breathing life in them. Therefore to all who knock the door will be open, but you will never knock unless drawn by God.

I got no problem with whatever you choose to believe. I’m cool with it.
To me, ‘accepting’ and “responsible” are two completely different things. To me, ‘accepting’ isn’t ‘earning’.

Thats how I read it.

I woke up this morning with a toothache and an ingrown toenail. I ain't complaining, but you'll need to ask me later what I think about this verse.

And following the theology of Calvin, eternal damnation is predestined for others, before they were even born. To me, there’s ‘nothing’ morally right about that. To me, “capable” doesn’t mean ‘He does.’

Antlers,

I hear you brother. Its a tough subject. There is plenty of scripture than can be described as harsh and "nothing morally right about it". I listened to an atheist describe his quest to understand the Bible. He decided to hand write it in order to not miss a word. Afterwards he was even more entrenched in his atheism. His response was there is no way he could worship a God as cruel as the one described in the Bible. Though this guy is not a believer, he did understand that aspect of the Bible more than 99% of "Christians". I'm not insinuating God is cruel, but that justice and wrath can be easily mistaken.

Many doctrinal idiots have weighed in here with their considered expert opinions as to what scripture says. You have only proven that a wordsmith can make scripture mean anything he wants. The greatest thing you could ever learn from scripture,is not some secret God revealed in a book of his exact infallible words,but the fact that he can work with any idiot willing to give it a go.

‘Somebody’ needs some carbs.

Paul, again. The overbearing deluded usurper and obviously a Roman agent. He corrupted Jesus' teaching so much it is hard to know where to start. Did Jesus teach predestination? Explicitly?

Hey guys,

This topic was hot back in the 80s when I exposed myself to weekly teachings from a Calvinist.
It was confusing trying to reconcile T.U.L.I.P. with the gospel of salvation from hell.

I realized a couple of basic things that had to be fully grasped. After that all the same issues became clear as a cloudless day.

The only thing that has ever become clear to me,is that no one has ever changed their mind in these so called discussions. All anyone wants is to give their opinion and whoever is the loudest usually considers himself the winner.

The entire Bible is the word of God.

My mind was changed through reading and study of the Word. You can't pick a verse here and there. Read through the Bible with the sole purpose of answering this question. The answer will become clear. The Bible is what changes mind.

I'm just checking in for a minute.
Later, if anyone wants a very clear and concise answer from the Word of God, you will receive it.
I will not convince some. That is understandable.
I just got done studying the end of chapter 6 in John.
Jesus Himself explained something very clearly and even many of His own disciples were offended and left Him. I will not debate. The Bible speaks for itself.
I simply want to share a blessing to anyone who wants one.

Pray for discernment and understanding until later.

Blessings

Even if some of it was written by someone who never knew Jesus (Yeshua) and refuted Jesus teachings? There is a Paul in every organization.

Yes sir, the entire Bible is the inerrant Word of God.

Well said.

When I find myself baffled as to how God’s word seems to contradict itself I have to assume it’s my problem not His.

Creator/creature stuff and all.

There is so much to learn from seeking to get a view of the thrust of scripture from 40k feet vs dissecting it verse by verse.

You are the only one in this thread championing that idea. You introduced the straw man and then defend him without addressing scripture which deals with the issue. Not an intellectually honest way to approach scripture, ignoring, denying or avoiding the things that are difficult to understand.

Care for some Christian music?

Good evening everyone!

It's a blessing to know so many here that are serious students of God's Word!
Wabigoon probably never expected Romans 8:28 to bring up so much debate when he posted it. 😄
It's a precious promise to those who meet the requirements. I wish that I was adept at sending audio files, because I sing this verse with those who like to sing and memorize Scripture that way.

The second half of the verse is what comes into question with many folks.
"...To those who are the called according to His purpose."

Who's this talking about?
Those who are saved.
Lets walk down the Romans road for that straight way to heaven. Jesus said in John 14:6

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

The first question that requires an answer in order to get to the heart of the issue is....
1. Who needs to be saved?

Romans 3:10
"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one."
Why?
Isaiah says, "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away."

I cleaned a Possum cage and I wouldn't even think of wiping my mouth off with that filthy rag. Stink, flies, possum poop, yuk; now that's an illustration of what our "righteous" deeds (good works) are to God in regards to salvation.
Why?

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;". Romans 3:23
Does that apply to you? Have you ever sinned? IF you have always been and always be perfect, this doesn't apply to you. Maybe you haven't committed murder, but have you ever told a lie?

Romans 6:
23
"For the wages of sin is death...."

Death? Well EVERYBODY dies sooner or later.
But, the death here is the eternal death of the human spirit, not the mere body. Revelation of Jesus Christ explains in frightening details what this means in 20:14, 15; & 21:8
"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."
"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

Now there's a serious promise. How many murders would a killer have to kill to be considered a murderer?
How many lies to be a liar?
There's a reason why these are both different degrees of sin yet in the same list.
2. According to God, where do you deserve to go some day?
This point is extremely important. If you can not admit your condemnation to a completely holy and righteous God, you can not see your personal need for Him to save you.

The Bible tells us that it's not wise to compare yourself to others. In doing so we are trying to justify ourselves by our own righteousness, which is holding up a dirty diaper to the Lord and saying " I've got a bunch of these for You to consider, so why not let me into heaven? These rags of my righteous works should pay for my tens of thousands of sins....right?"
Wrong!

"Lord, I've gotten baptized, tried to obey the law, treated others with respect, give to the lodge, the church, the nra, don't cuss, don't chew, don't go with girls that do!
I gave my life to You, repent of all my sins.!"
Those are all works of self righteousness....filthy rags.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.". Eph. 2... Likewise on that Romans road 4:5
"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

Notice the following.
A. We are UNgodly.
B. This is to those who "worketh NOT."
C. Who are we to believe upon so we call be justified in His eyes?
D. Salvation is of faith in Him, because it is a gift that has been fully paid for.

"But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.". Romans 5:8
6:23 "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Some here have given an invitation to the Savior, when He has told you to come unto Him in complete faith. Others gave their life or heart to Him....another work.
He is the One and only accepted Sacrifice Who gave His life after suffering for your sins.
From the minute you transfer the object of your faith....your filthy rags to INSTEAD making The crucified Savior the Object of faith..... that is when He gives that gift of everlasting life. You can never go to hell from that point on. What about sins? You will be treated as sons. Discipline on earth in time, but never hell. It will hurt, but Jesus is the only One Who paid for them.
3. What must you do to be saved?

"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved."

Pray now,

Dear God,
I don't deserve to go to heaven. If I got what I deserve it would be hell. There's no amount of works that I can do to be saved. So right now, I place my trust in the Savior, Your Son Jesus. He suffered terrible torments for what I have done against You....so that I will not suffer the torments of hell. Please give me Your promised gift of everlasting life.
Thank You very much Lord.
Amen."

Please PM me immediately upon praying this prayer.
I want to pray for you and be a blessing to you any way possible.

Happy Camper

I really believe that God in his infinite mercy will forgive you for believing that. But he did say through His messenger Jesus "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say unto you, that except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven."
Torpedoed Paul right there. But you see, Paul had no idea Jesus said that. He never met Jesus except his claims of meeting Him out on a lonely road and even at that he couldn't keep the story straight. I hope Paul repented before his Roman protectors turned on him and killed him.

Thanks good men we may be preaching to the choir, better than no preaching at all.

You can't be serious.

Happy Camper, the "sinner's prayer", another difficult topic.

Reconcile this:

From the minute you transfer the object of your faith....your filthy rags to INSTEAD making The crucified Savior the Object of faith..... that is when He gives that gift of everlasting life. You can never go to hell from that point on. What about sins? You will be treated as sons. Discipline on earth in time, but never hell. It will hurt, but Jesus is the only One Who paid for them.

To this:

3 See what kind of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are. The reason why the world does not know us is that it did not know him. 2 Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears[a] we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is. 3 And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure.

4 Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. 5 You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. 6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. 8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's[b] seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

A dude was walking to class and a guy in front of him dropped $10. First guy ran and picked it up and having just got out of bible studies asked himself, “What Would Jesus Do?”

So he turned it into wine.

Yep, just trying to get folks to thinking and researching. But I am pretty sure you and I just as well talk to a fence post as each other.

Hastings,

All mighty God, the creator of Heaven and Earth, couldn't get his word pure but we can? Who decides? You? Me? Trump? Obama? Can we all choose differently, picking what we like and tossing out what we don't? Man that would make it easy. What about Orthodox Jews that don't believe in the New Testament all together? Who is the authority on this?

I go with Jesus. And John the Baptist. And Jesus' brother James. The apostles Jesus publicly chose. And the Old Testament. I don't go with anyone that opposes Jesus' personally and repeatedly stated doctrine of salvation through repentance exemplified by works and as John said "works meet for repentance". James was obviously written in contradiction to Paul. In Revelation Jesus commended the Ephesians for giving Paul the boot. In a letter to Timothy Paul lamented that Ephesus had turned against him. I can't get past the book of Romans where Paul sets up the civil government as an agent of GOD. Check it out with an open mind. God won't punish you for seeking truth if he is just. Are you a Southern Baptist?

Hastings I"m sorry but your position does not dignify a response other than its simply completely wrong and extremely convoluted.

I am not Southern Baptist. I am a member of no denomination. I lean Presbyterian though do like a proper Baptism (but do not believe being dunked saves a person) .

Yes, ctsmith, to know Him is to place 100% of your trust in Him for salvation. That is when you become a child of God..... spiritually born into His family.

So others know the address, you are showing I John.
From the first few verses, it clearly addresses an audience of believers who have already obeyed the gospel by believing in Jesus. He goes on in the same letter to assure them that once they are saved, they will always be saved.
" And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."
I John 5:11-13

What John states in his 3 letters is addressed to a saved audience that already have the gift of eternal life.
On the contrary, who he addresses in his larger gospel is primarily to a lost audience who has no assurance of heaven. See John 3:36 & 20:31

"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
"But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name."

It's as clear as our beautiful cloudless sky today.
After making Jesus Christ the Object of your faith, read the gospel of (St.)John KJV.
This clarifies the many supposed contradictions and confusions that the so called "reverends" cause to their churches. It's no wonder that Jesus rebuked them more harshly than any others.

May I recommend to all to prayerfully go back and study the Questions and Answers clearly stated in my previous post. There's much to gain by setting aside the other distractions for an evening or morning and settling that issue. There's nothing more important.

Christ is not illogical. He is not unjust. Show me a scripture saying He predestined some of His creation to death and others to life, rather than showing me a scripture with the word predestined in it.

Im betting you're predestined to jump if stuck with a hot poker.

Once saved, always saved, yes. But the question becomes ARE we saved. John spells out a simple test that's hard to work around, but you tried.

PS. My interpretation of this question is the result of only contemplation of just and unjust in the brain He gave me to study scripture and stand up for HIM and from the conclusions HE put in my head from reading this thread and my rudimentary knowledge of scripture.

I never studied Theology and truthfully dont know what youre talking about. I pulled up the definition of Calvanism yesterday, not having ever seen in scripture what the word means.

Im not saying we arent predestined to hell or heaven, im saying to me, it doesnt add up to what a life of scripture has impressed on me.

Maybe you're right. Maybe thats why theres going to be a great gnashing of teeth, those being believers who studied His word diligently, tried to emulate Him, tithed and still will end up going to hell, but I dont think so.

"The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.'' Proverbs 16:4

''Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much long suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory.'' - Romans 9:21-23


"And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? Or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? Have not I the Lord?" Exodus 4:11

Then therein may lie the problem. You keep making the same comment propping up double predestination as a straw man. You say that you haven’t studied theology just contemplating scripture based on a rudimentary knowledge.

Based on reading the thread there isn’t one person posting who hasn’t been influenced in the negative by bad theology. I include myself in that number. Modern Christian doctrine in America is strongly influenced by Charles Finney and Wesley’s Christian perfection doctrine. Works based salvation.

If you are truly looking to understand scriptural teaching on predestination a good starting point is to read a few papers online that contrast “the doctrine of glory” with “the doctrine of the cross”.

Good one!😊

To a certain extent we’re all stuck in our time and place with its philosophical presuppositions and blind spots. That’s been true of those who have thought about God since the very beginning; we don’t know what we don’t know, and we aren’t fully conscious of the way that our culture informs our interpretation/application of the ideas in Scripture.

A careful examination of these in light of the many wise men of the past (who again, are all fallible and had similar baggage to us) has been very helpful to me as I’ve sought to know God better and to be transformed into the likeness of His Son.

This exercise isn’t necessarily equally helpful to everyone, but at the very least realizing that each of us has severe limitations and blind spots when it comes to the things of God allows for the intellectual honesty and humility necessary to begin.



Salvation through faith as a work in and of itself, “If you would only bring your faith to the table you’ll be saved...” plus sentimentalism which manipulated the emotions rather than engaging the whole man by God’s word and through the power of the Holy Spirit by use of His appointed means.

A picture from last Sunday at church. We had a baptism, the baby was good as gold. I think Pastor Missy has a great way with the babies.

While not keeping up with all of this thread, I do believe, as He said, salvation is freely given and comes with belief in the good news, faith in Him and repentance. That gets it. Anyone can do it. None are sentenced to death before life.

I am constantly wrestling through these issues to test myself against other believers (I am open to being shown to be wrong if it is from Scripture and it’s happened plenty) in an effort to live a life that is more Christlike before men.

Thoughts lead to actions, no?

Long way to say that our engagement here doesn’t preclude engagement elsewhere and the Gospel needs to be heard by the choir just as much as by anyone else.

Lots of women are good with babies, how about scripture?

Let's hope we are showing a sermon, as opposed to peaching one?

RC, she is splendid at that as well. Missy is the only glue holding our leaky ship together.

Or both; practicing what we preach?

It’s my prayer for myself and those I love each day.

elf, the hardest part is also praying for the people that hate us.

This can be true except I don’t pray that they’d practice what they preach.

The truth be told, choirs, pastors, and all of us need doctrinally sound preaching. I'm thankful beyond expression that a man of God had the spiritual courage to tell me the truth in love back in the day. Most people are comfortable in their traditions and pass those along to the next generation of children. We are told by God the Holy Spirit,

"Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ."
Colossians 2:8

With all due respect to all those with the best intentions, the baby is an example of someone who has no accountability: However, the pastors pouring water on them demonstrate a lack of understanding of the most vital subject of salvation.

I don’t think people resist Christianity because those who call themselves Christians love others too much, or because they are too welcoming of others, or because they are too willing to carry others people's burdens, or because they're so forgiving and so open and so gracious. I think what people find so easy to resist about Christianity is the hypocrisy and the 'we know it all, and we're better than y'all' attitude that many who call themselves Christians seem to have. I don’t think people resist Christianity because of Jesus...I think people mostly resist Christianity because of people who call themselves Christians.

My biggest stumbling block to answering the call to salvation had far more to do with a recognition of the autonomy I’d have to give up when calling Jesus my Lord. That’s true for all of us and that incessant need to be our own LORD makes it difficult for all of us to be faithful to Christ’s call to love people.

Christ, to those who meet the real Him in Scripture (because there are many in the world), is highly offensive to all mankind. Setting aside one’s “rights” is as tough or tougher than the call that then comes to those who receive His grace.

I thought the whole idea of Christianity was to become "One with God". Am I wrong? When then does this oneness occur?

I don’t think so. God is transcendent and we are always and forever creature. The first question of the Westminster Shorter Catechism asks that question. The scriptural answer that those writers gave was that man was created to glorify God and enjoy him Forever.

Do you trace this back to Adams sin?

It occurs to a man the moment that he makes the decision that I covered in the post below. I hope that you will be blessed by it.

Indeed our first father’s sin continues to impede our communion with God!

Why then do I always hear about the struggle to be like Christ from those who are supposedly "One" with Him?

Christians are so confused. If indeed Adam's sin,or even yours continues to impede,what did Christ accomplish?

I find it to be an easy walk. The idea that the Power that created the universe is interested in having a relationship with me...one of His creations...resonates with me. Everything else really pales in comparison to that idea. Once that relationship was established, fine theological points that are so often considered important, evaporated. To know that when the Creator of all the universe is on your side...it changes your perspective and gives life real meaning. It makes my life better, and makes me better at life. I truly feel that extending grace is the greatest opportunity that we’ll ever have, relationally, while we’re on this earth. I’m convinced that Jesus loves us, is with us, is not surprised by anything that’s happening to us, and will walk with us through it. “Come to me, all of you who are weary and carry heavy burdens, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.“ - Jesus
I take ‘that’ to heart.
It’s the easiest life that I’ve ever known.

Here you go R H Clark, and anyone else who wants to know.

A man once asked me if I was 100% certain that if I were to die today, would I go to heaven?

I appreciate that question. It has an answer that God is not hiding from us. I posted it yesterday, but some missed it. Here's the answer.

Lets walk down the Romans road for that straight way to heaven. Jesus said in John 14:6

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

The first question that requires an answer in order to get to the heart of the issue is....
1. Who needs to be saved?

Romans 3:10
"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one."
Why?
Isaiah says, "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away."

I cleaned a Possum cage and I wouldn't even think of wiping my mouth off with that filthy rag. Stink, flies, possum poop, yuk; now that's an illustration of what our "righteous" deeds (good works) are to God in regards to salvation.
Why?

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;". Romans 3:23
Does that apply to you? Have you ever sinned? IF you have always been and always be perfect, this doesn't apply to you. Maybe you haven't committed murder, but have you ever told a lie?

Romans 6:
23
"For the wages of sin is death...."

Death? Well EVERYBODY dies sooner or later.
But, the death here is the eternal death of the human spirit, not the mere body. Revelation of Jesus Christ explains in frightening details what this means in 20:14, 15; & 21:8
"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."
"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

Now there's a serious promise. How many murders would a killer have to kill to be considered a murderer?
How many lies to be a liar?
There's a reason why these are both different degrees of sin yet in the same list.

2. According to God, where do you deserve to go some day?

This point is extremely important. If you can not admit your condemnation to a completely holy and righteous God, you can not see your personal need for Him to save you.

The Bible tells us that it's not wise to compare yourself to others. In doing so we are trying to justify ourselves by our own righteousness, which is holding up a dirty diaper to the Lord and saying " I've got a bunch of these for You to consider, so why not let me into heaven? These rags of my righteous works should pay for my tens of thousands of sins....right?"
Wrong!

"Lord, I've gotten baptized, tried to obey the law, treated others with respect, give to the lodge, the church, the nra, don't cuss, don't chew, don't go with girls that do!
I gave my life to You, repent of all my sins.!"
Those are all works of self righteousness....filthy rags.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.". Eph. 2... Likewise on that Romans road 4:5
"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

Notice the following.
A. We are UNgodly.
B. This is to those who "worketh NOT."
C. Who are we to believe upon so we call be justified in His eyes?
D. Salvation is of faith in Him, because it is a gift that has been fully paid for. It was paid by Jesus, God's holy Son Who suffered, taking our punishment....dying.....then taking that life back the third day.

"But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.". Romans 5:8
6:23 "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."


He is the One and only accepted Sacrifice. He doesn't want you to give anything to Him. The debt has been paid in full. It is finished.
From the minute you transfer the object of your faith... those filthy rags to The crucified Savior as the Object of faith..... that is when He gives that gift of everlasting life. You can never go to hell from that point on. What about sins? You will be treated as God's children. If you do something really bad, He will discipline you on earth in here and now, but will never send you to hell.

3. What must you do to be saved?

"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved."
The word believe is repeated 100 times in the gospel of John alone. You have read,
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Here's a sample prayer to make it very simple.

Pray now,

"Dear God,
I don't deserve to go to heaven. If I got what I deserve it would be hell. There's no amount of works that I can do to be saved. So right now, I place my trust in the Savior, Your Son Jesus. He suffered terrible torments for what I have done against You....so that I will not suffer the torments of hell. Please give me Your promised gift of everlasting life.
Thank You very much Lord.
Amen."

Please PM me immediately upon praying this prayer.
I want to pray for you and be a blessing to you any way possible.

Happy Camper

I would think you a very nice well meaning man,as I find most Christians to be. I also find however that people who don't really know much about what they believe always refer to the text of what they are supposed to believe to answer simple questions about what they actually do believe.
My questions are meant to spark thought in you,not to regurgitate Paul's thoughts. If indeed God is alive in you,why must you only repeat what He told someone else 2000 years ago? Those are questions you must ask if you are to ever be really One with God.

elf, you're correct about many Christians "turning off" others. They must be afraid it's contagious!

I need to thank the Jehovism's Witness lay minister that counseled me in a time of trial. he told me to look up Romans 8:28.

May Lord Jesus Bless him!

I quote the Bible, because it is God's detailed revelations to us. My opinions are subjective and prone to errors.

I also quote the Bible because It is the example that my Savior, Jesus gave.

A. He quoted His prophets many times and read from the Old covenant / testament in the synagogues.

B. Jesus was tempted by Satan himself and quoted specific references that applied to the temptation and affirmed to Satan that he was talking to the Almighty God Who was in the devil's presence.

Also, I quote the Word of God because,
"And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

The Bible is inspired by Almighty, All knowing God.
It's profitable for many reasons. Most of all,
It is the way to know how to be with God.

Can a person obtain salvation by following Jesus? Can a person learn enough about salvation to obtain salvation if they completely ignore Paul's letters? I say yes. Well?

Being at one or being exactly like Jesus will not happen in this life. Even if you are born again you still live in a flesh body that is corruptible, at death then one can put on incorruption. Being perfect like Christ this side of the grave ain't happening. Being at peace with God through faith in Jesus is possible. If a person is in Christ they are a new creation. The things I did 10+ yrs ago I have been set free from. Don't ask what they are that's between me & God.

Aw, come on, dont give us that Jive, confess, inquiring minds wanna know, bro.

Just kidding. You're spot on.

Well said



Amen

To me, unequivocally, YES. To me, He’s the ONLY one to follow.Well, unbelievers in the first century were never asked to become Jesus’ followers through blind faith in an authoritative New Testament that didn’t even exist yet.
There were a lotta Jesus’ followers who obtained salvation before ‘any’ books of the New Testament were ever written.

Then there is the question of a missionary having the flat tire, and never getting to the native village?

I think there is some type of a "Second chance"?

It seems to me that your question is similar or the same to most of the questions that people ask about the authenticity of Christianity. As a Christian I can honestly say that there is absolutely nothing that another man has lived, given example of or in which someone has reflected Christ that caused me to be a Christian. I believe that a lot of people become moralists in that way but not Christians.

Unfortunately modern Christian thought equates moralism with what a Christian is to be like. That moralism is equated with holiness or being like Jesus. Compare a moral Christian to a Moral non Christian and you can’t tell the difference. Being Jesus in the world or oneness isn’t Christianity. We can’t be Jesus. We can’t live the Gospel because we aren’t and never will be the gospel. We can speak about it but we ain’t it.

What is a Christian? A sinner. A sinner that has believed that Jesus death justifies himself before God. No better or worse than another human being unless he chooses to act that way. Just a sinner. Most Christians refuse to think of themselves as such or make excuses that they may sin on occasion.

It’s no wonder that non Christians look on with The understanding that they are viewing hypocrisy. Christians walk around talking about how holy they are or implying it all the while sinning so that others can see it.

No second chance.

I see a theme with some posts, the theme that its easy to get to heaven.



Consider that these guys were equivalent to current day pastors and priest. They were granted power by God to perform miracles and cast out demons. What if your pastor cast out demons and performed miracles in front of your eyes. Would you ever believe they were on the fast track to hell?



The perception by most is that God is a big huge teddy bear. They haven't read the same Bible as me.

CT, I'm talking about people that never heard.

Me too.

All innocent people go to heaven, no denying that. One problem, no one is innocent, no not one.

If a guilty person who has never heard the gospel can die and go to heaven then why burden them by witnessing?

FYI I've been a licensed ordained minister for about 20 years. I've worked exclusively for a church and taught from a pulpit.

What I see as the great fallacy of the church is that it teaches that you can never attain. In fact you attained all already if you are born again. It's hard to get people coming back though if they think they already have everything they need,so then the Church becomes a path to salvation rather than a group of already saved.

This is an excellent example of the way that we as humans think about God’s justice and fairness can cause us to stumble and where we need to go back to scripture to see where we’re wrong.

We are all guilty of sin and have been presented everything we need to know in nature according to Romans 1.

From where does your idea that there is a “second chance” come?

I understand that perfectly. I operated that way for nearly 20 years. The question then you need to ask yourself is,"Can God speak to me separately,one on one today,rather than me getting all my answers from what he told somebody else 2000 years ago.

I'm not saying that what God said to them isn't true or relevant. What I'm saying is that you need specific instruction for your life from God today, rather than trying to live it according to what he told somebody else. The whole purpose of the whole Bible is for you to understand that you can have a one on one with God,in fact that's what he wants.

If you want to find God and understand your purpose,look inward and search for the real truth about everything.

Clark, with all due respect, God told those 2000 years ago exactly what he tells people today. The Bible hasn't changed, not one word. Want to hear what God has to say? Read the Bible.

That may be what you meant. If so I apologize.

You can learn a lot about God and humans by reading the Bible but if God is alive today,he's still talking and wants to lead you specifically. Too many times we seek direction from what has been said and that's not necessarily bad at all,but you have specific problems and live in a different time that requires specific direction. I would be much more interested to hear what God is telling you ,than have you tell me what he told someone else.

The problem with "listening to what God has to tell us" is that we are humans and there is an undeniable overwhelming tendency to hear what we want to hear. Which is why I always say, if you want to hear what God has to say read the Bible. "Listening to what God has to Say" is very subjective and dangerous. Very few will "hear" the same. The Bible is never changing, solid as a rock. The Bible is God's word.

The Jesus I know is not bound by the covers of a book. He can reveal Himself in any manner He chooses.

Absolutely. I'm staring out the Window looking at Jesus and God as I type. I see them in everything, revealing themselves continually. But only take instruction from the Bible. I do not trust what I "hear". I do not trust what you "hear". The Bible is complete. I am certain homosexuals "hear" their lifestyle is okay with God, as does the habitual adulterer. Same with the drunk, the corrupt, the cult leader, etc. etc. But wait, I am an exception. Everything I hear God say is pure and correct. As a wise old man told me, "son, everybody thinks they are an exception. You are no exception".

It is good to remember the bible was compiled and edited by fallible men. The original dialogue quoted in the New Testament was spoken in Aramaic or Hebrew and translated into Greek at some point and now we have our English versions. It is interesting to me that some writings were lost or ditched and there are obvious insertions in places. The Roman church had custody of the bible for a long time and while they couldn't easily monkey with the Old Testament they certainly could bend the New to their own use and advantage. That said, it seems that Jesus' core message survived.

elf, I should have said, First chance.

wordTo me, the Bible is NOT the foundation of the Christian faith. It wasn’t for early first century followers of Jesus (when the Bible didn’t even exist), and it’s not now. To me, the Bible exists ‘because of’ Christianity...Christianity doesn’t exist ‘because of’ the Bible.

I believe the Bible is inerrant. If any piece of scripture can be broke, then the whole Bible can be unwound. Then who becomes the authority? Sorry Hastings, not you, but me neither.

Has there ever, been a better Book?

The Bible is very very clear that it is the Word of God, which has to be considered at least part of the foundation.

heard a guy say on the radio the other day, non-christians like to say that Jesus was a nice guy, spiritual, a lot of good teaching. but, if he claimed to be the Son of God, and really wasn't, is he still "good"?

I'll let someone else field that.

Christ followed the Old Testament, promoted others to do the same, and began the teachings which are documented in the New Testament. So, a big part of the Bible as we know it today was not discounted by Jesus and is a fundamental piece of Christianity

I believe it to be inspired. To me, that’s not so. I don’t have to believe the literal Genesis creation account, or the literal account of Noah and the Ark, or the literal account of Jonah and the great fish...in order for me to believe, wholeheartedly, the Gospel. My faith in Jesus is not dependent on an inerrant Bible, nor does my relationship with Him require me to believe things that simply are not true.

There is somewhat of a safety in basing your decisions in what God told others to do. The problem with it however is that you are left with a book of directions and examples of what God did long ago rather than a living God in you. Read Hebrews for example.The entire theme is that there is no longer any boundary between you and God. What good is it for God to provide a way for you to stand in his presence guilt free but you would rather just read an account of what he told somebody else to do?

The usefulness of the scriptures is not as a book of God's words to you,but as a book that reveals to you a way that you can hear from God for yourself. Yes,nobody will hear the same but that's the point. Your problems and weaknesses are completely different from mine. There's no danger for the seeker of truth. There's no danger of being wrong for he who seeks what is right. Follow peace,love,joy,goodness,all of what the bible calls fruit of the Spirit and your path is always sure. The real danger is when we stand up and declare that we know God because we have read the book. Therein lies pride. I'm not telling you to throw away your bible. I'm telling you the bible is the path,rather than the destination.

To me, Jesus was raised the Jew that He was. He knew the Law and the Prophets, and discussed them with His followers...ALL of whom were Jews. Up until that time, the Old Covenant was all they had, and it was all they’d known. But Jesus ushered in something brand new. The Old Covenant was made between God and the nation of Israel. Whereas Jesus’ New Covenant was made between God and all of the people in all of the world. Jesus fulfilled this Old Covenant, rendering it completed...“It is finished” meant just that...and He ushered in His New Covenant. Jesus’ New Covenant is what is in effect now. The appearance of Jesus and His ekklesia was intertwined with the history which had preceded it, and the Law and the Prophets were preserved for Christians in what became the Old Testament in the Christian Bible.

I'm in agreement with that as well, except that not all of Christ's audience was Jewish or Israelites.
But what is your basis for discounting the Bible as a "foundation" of Christianity? Yes the OT was fulfilled, but its words are still integral to belief and faith. As a historical record alone it carries many fundamental beliefs, and the words of the prophets foretold what was to come.

I play it safe. I know (and you do to) what happens when man is given any sort leeway. We always will twist it to fit our objective (whether its the Bible or anything else). Its human nature. I am no exception.

sse, Moses is a profit, and a "Good Guy, Jesus is Lord God.

Then what makes you think that exact twist didn't happen in translation or the writing down of direct revelation of the text you follow as inerrant? I think it a better testament of God's power that he can get the the message across despite any fallacy, rather than that he could cause humans to be infallible in this one area.

Question - God revealed to the local Methodist Church to allow gay pastors. What say you?

CT, I'm sure God love all of us, I'm not so sure about the, "Gay Pastors.

God, through the Holy Spirit has revealed just the opposite to many. Who is correct?

Well, if the best surgeon, mechanic, or firefighter were the choice I had, I'd take the person?

The only thing I could tell you about anything is to follow TRUTH. Now,figuring out what TRUTH really is and separating TRUTH from opinion and personal experience is up to you. It's not as easy as it first appears and often requires deep personal examination of why you think a particular way.

Those first century followers of Jesus didn’t even have the Bible, because the Bible didn’t even exist yet. But Jesus’ movement made some great strides early on ‘without’ a Bible. Jewish Christians didn’t have their lives changed by the Old Testament books that they’d been reading and studying and living by for their entire lives...! The Apostles didn’t become emboldened and stand up to the very power structure that had Jesus crucified because they were motivated by the Old Testament books that they’d been reading and studying their entire lives...! And Saul, who was the Pharisee of Pharisees, who was expert at the books of the Old Testament...and lived his life according to them...didn’t become the Apostle Paul due to those Old Testament books that his entire life was centered on...! Jesus’ Apostles...who hid and were scared after Jesus was executed...later made a remarkable change. They became emboldened, they faced and defied the very people who had Jesus crucified. It WASN’T the Old Testament that brought about this change in them, and it WASN’T any New Testament documents (which hadn’t even been written yet) that brought about this change in them. They were emboldened by something they had seen with their own eyes. They saw Jesus killed. And a few days later they had breakfast with Him on the beach...! They ALL experienced the risen Jesus. THAT is what changed their lives. For me, the faith of Christianity is tethered to the event of the Resurrection rather than the authority and inspiration or infallibility or inerrancy of the Bible. The Bible did not create Christianity. The Bible did not birth Jesus’ Church. For me, the faith is anchored to the event (the Resurrection) that sparked the movement (the Church) that brought us the Bible. To me, Christianity began on the very first Easter morning with an empty tomb...!
These people were closest to Jesus. They followed Him, they lived with Him, they learned directly from Him, and they literally ‘experienced’ life with Him while He was on earth. The foundation of *their* faith, to me, *is* the foundation of the Christian faith.

All of us are born dead and in our sins, but faith and belief in Jesus is the only answer to our sinful condition. We can opt to believe in Jesus or not.

Those who believe in Jesus are given a new birth from God. All who receive Jesus and believe in Him become children of God. John 1:12

Faith is necessary to believing in God. With faith, we will not perish (John 3:16), but without faith, we will perish. When we believe in and receive Jesus, we are destined for eternal life. The free gift of God is eternal life in Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:23

Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe (in Him) is condemned already because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God...whoever believes on the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him. John 3:18, 36

It’s our life choices, behaviors, and actions that prove God’s predictive knew-you-in-the-womb to be accurate.

To the first part of your comment, it seems that most non-Christians don’t have a problem with Jesus. They like Him. It’s ‘Christians’ that they have a problem with.
To the second part of your comment, even if one doesn’t believe that Jesus is the Son of God...following His teachings will make one’s life better, and following His teachings will make one better at life.

Yeah they like the nice guy who heals and feeds people just like the people of His time did.

Most hate... LOATH... the one who says He is Lord of all who retains His “right” as Creator to Lordship of all His Creation... also just like the people of His time did before they hung Him on a cross.

Belief relating to the god of the bible underwent modifications over time, the god of early OT times is not the same as later times, and quite different to the NT descriptions. People create their gods in the images of their hopes, fears and desires. Which still happens.

Regardless of whatever you think their reasons are, non-Christian people nowadays don’t seem to have a problem with Jesus. They do however seem to have a problem with ‘Christians’.I have not found that to be the case with non-Christian people nowadays at all.

Completely wrong! God never changes.

“I am the Lord, I do not change.” Malachi 3:6. Men change, God doesn’t. For 4,000 years, the Jews represent a memorial to the unchanging nature of God.

God has always been, and always will be, and will always remain the same. Men either follow God or follow their own devices.

Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Hebrews 13:8

That belief about the nature of God changed over time is not wrong. It is there for anyone to see and read. A tribal god, a god of war (verses say this) morphed into a God of Love. There are clear and undeniable differences in the nature of god between books.

To deny this requires cherry picking of verses, ignoring verses that do not conform with one's preferred image of God.

I'm thrilled good Christian men. This is a splendid thread.

Just keep following your own devices. Atta boy.

Ive read some enlightening scripture i hadnt remembered.

I had forgotten some of this. The scripture is good for correction. Humm.

From infancy you have known.... Humm.,

…15From infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for instruction, for conviction, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be complete, fully equipped for every good work.

Agreed. I enjoy all of the genuine engagement about this subject matter. Differences of opinion and interpretation are not a bad thing, they’re just a thing.

Paul wrote that. It doesn't count.

It counts if ya’ want it to. It doesn’t have to count if ya’ don’t want it to.

Sòme intelligent saved men say dont read a scripture and go by it, but read the whole and add up what it means.

Others say, dont come up and say what you think it means and get out of it, but go by scripture and show it.

Sheesh. Cant win for losing with youse guys.

When we get to Heaven, I'll look around to see if Paul is in a pup tent.

Sorry man, I can't give you that one. We can't pick and choose scripture based on what we want to believe. No sir.

I find this compares well with hunters around a campfire discussing different aspects of their hunt for the "turdy point buck".

Mine had 28 (before 4 were broken off).

That’s OK. I’m cool with whatever you choose to believe. To me, in addition to Essential Beliefs, we have liberty in Non-Essential Beliefs.
“...without passing judgment on disputable matters… Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master servants stand or fall… So then each of us will give an account of ourselves to God… So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God.”
Romans 14:1, 4, 12, 22
One’s salvation does NOT depend on believing in Noah and the Ark (for example). Nor does one’s salvation depend on believing in everything that Paul said (for example).

It's not about me or what I do. I was talking about the bible and what it says. You turn the focus onto me in order to avoid dealing with what the bible says, a common tactic when it comes to inconvenient truth.

Just Love back!

No offense, but me thinks she may have forgotten or rejected one or two scriptures.

If one rejects one scripture, do they not reject Him? I dont know because i am also often inclined to lean on my own understanding (feelings?).

How many scriptures are we allowed to ignore, reject or overlook, before our house is not built on the Rock?
I would consider not how well someone knows scripture, not their wonderful desire or devine intent, but I would consider that HE made woman different than man and HE had a plan, a path, you might say, that is narrow.

I also know that HE said HE does not abide in a woman instructing a man. Now, to preach scriptutre, does not necessarily involve instructing men, but if a woman preacher is counseling people with problems i expect there is some recommendations going on.

It does make some uncomfortable. Just my take.

Just Love back!

Its not up to me to change anyones mind. Thats the Father's job.

But I have to ask, and I am not trying to sound condemning. But have you read the Bible lately? Not a verse here and a verse there, but the Bible from cover to cover? If not I challenge you to do so. It can be transforming. If you have, well there's no hope for you.

Nor am I out to change anyone’s mind. We’re just discussing subject matter of mutual interest on a discussion forum.Yes. But I don’t worship the Bible.

Christianity would still be true if every Bible and manuscript in the world were non-existent. To me, the foundation of Christianity is not a collection of ancient writings we call the Bible. To me, the foundation of Christianity is the reality of God and the historicity of Jesus, His life and teachings, His death, and especially His Resurrection. In fact, the New Testament wouldn’t even exist unless the Resurrection occurred. So, to me, while all of the Bible can help us to more fully understand God and and follow Jesus, we don’t need all of the Bible to understand its most important message—the Gospel.

So, can love allow practicing homosexuals to pastor a church?

Are we to assume HE was wrong on this occasion or on several occasions?

Are we supposed to over look things like this or, as HE said, use the scriptures for instruction and correction?

How many mothers with love overlooked the crimes of their husbands or children to the detriment or dismay of others.

I know that you, and evidently many others in the church are ok with this arrangement. Is this leading others to accept Gods words were sometimes in error?

How many are uncomfortable with this?

How many prospective members looking for a church home will be diverted by this?

Im sure Margaret Thatcher was a great world leader regarding conservative Christian values. Was she the camels nose under the tent? Look a the female world leaders we have today.

Many will come in my name. Take care that yee be not decieved. The way is narrow...

I see what you are saying, antlers.
I respectfully disagree in part. I agree with the faith in the death, burial and resurrection being the source of that new birth, and relationship with God.
Certainly there's no true church without the Living Word. I couldn't put it better myself. 👍

Since then, I believe that we have the most highly documented ancient collection of books and manuscripts due to the Divine actions of God.
The disciples and Jesus preached from the O.T. and later the Better Testament was given as the additional Scriptures.....ending complete with Revelation.

The part of difference is the place of the Bible in the continuation of churches. There's been a trail of martyrs blood throughout history by those who held to Scripture over the teachings of the established state "Universal Church."
I was taught by Catholicism that traditions, vatican councils, Popes speaking excathedra were at a highly trustworthy level as revelation from God. I think that these are put on equal trust with the Bible, which should be interpreted according to official church teaching. When I got saved, I came to place more and more faith in the trustworthy Bible. I am not a follower of that religion or the "Father/pope" either in case anybody is wondering. I don't think that you do either antlers.... unless you correct me.

How do we know and everyone else know of the Savior if not from God's inspired, inerrant Word? We would be left with oral traditions, church "fathers", current "fathers/popes", councils, and mainstream "Universal Church" officially allowed interpretation of Scripture.

God gave us His Word so we could have a clear trustworthy document of the all important Savior Who was tortured and died on our behalf and after three days arise bodily.....seen of hundreds of eye witnesses who could testify of that fact to all sceptics of that generation. I trust Him BECAUSE of His supernatural Word. That is how we today can have the same power and relationship with the Lord as the disciples who saw the Savior in person.

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

My Church is built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ being the Chief Corner Stone. We know and see Him and them from the Bible don't we?

…15From infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

16ALL SCRIPTURE is God-breathed and is useful for instruction, for conviction, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be complete, fully equipped for every good work.

The scripture is GOD'S written message to those who would be HIS. It is what you have known from birth and what some have rejected or forgotten in written, transportable, transferrable form.

To me, just because one can learn about math from a math book doesn’t place the importance on the math book to the neglect of the math itself...the math still exists apart from the math book. Just because one can learn about history from a history book doesn’t place the importance on the history book to the neglect of the history itself...the history still exists apart from the history book. And just because one can learn about Jesus from the Bible doesn’t place the importance on the Bible to the neglect of Jesus Himself...Jesus ‘still’ exists apart from the Bible.
Your birth certificate tells of your birth, but you don’t exist ‘because of’ your birth certificate, your birth certificate exists ‘because of’ you. You would ‘still’ exist even if you had no birth certificate.
The Bible tells of the Savior, but the Savior doesn’t exist ‘because of’ the Bible, the Bible exists ‘because of’ the Savior. The Savior would ‘still’ exist even if there were no Bible.

Certainly true that He exists and has always existed before the N.T. I appreciate your candor in explaining your position. I wasn't sure before.

I think that He spoke to the first people directly, like Adam, Eve and their children. We know of many others too. After the first written scriptures, there were miracles confirming their veracity. As time went on there were Judges and prophets. It just seems like the Lord thought that the written Word was extremely important. 2 Peter 1:17 comes to mind .

"For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation."

We certainly don't worship the Bible, but there's psalm 119 and other famous passages of how valuable it's wisdom is and supernaturally speaks to us by His Holy Spirit for example.

Hey man, I don’t disagree with any of that.

Just to be clear,I never said there was no use in reading or studying scripture.I have found much inspiration and wisdom in the Bible. What I said and stand by is that I don't think these forum discussions have ever accomplished much more than arguments.

I won't sit under a woman preacher it's not biblical. Homosexual preachers are unbiblical. Homosexual people can be in church hearing God's word just as any other sinner can, but not to preach. Give me a break folks!
As surely as God lives, Paul the apostle is in heaven. I'll not argue any of this. No one will persuade me differently.

Well good folks, it's this way, we are blessed to have her. A friend tells me his Presbyterian church offered a man minister $90,000 a year, and he turned them down.

If, and when she leaves we are plain sunk.

Amen!

I didn't mean to come across as holier than thou, or to judge you. I've been dealing with friends here on this end who want to be involved with ministry, but do not know the Lord or have any interest in the Word. I'm trying to encourage them on this end and it's been on my mind.

Hey guys,

I just found a Christian movie this morning that might be a blessing to you. Have a great day!

For you guys you feel like you hear from God within and find that of equal to or greater importance and what you read in the Bible; how do you differentiate your experience from the Gnosticism that Paul condemned in his letters?

The central tenets of Gnosticism are the polar opposite of the central tenets of Christianity. And no one here has stated the “equal to or greater importance than what you read in the Bible” that you refer to. None of the apostles had the Bible though. And none of Jesus’ early first century followers had the Bible either. The Bible didn’t even exist until the 4th century. But there were a lot of Jesus followers in the meantime...and their relationship with the Savior was likely just as valid as yours is.

Without the Bible, who is Jesus?

Ain't no pup tents in heaven, just mansions. (John 14)

And the predestination in Romans 8 is to be be conformed to the image
of Jesus Christ -- verse 29.

"For ever, O Lord, thy word is settled in heaven." (Psalm 119:89) He'd still be God

Obviously. But how do we know about him? From what our alcoholic uncle told us?

I’m not implying that anyone here is practicing full-blown Gnosticism.

In the old testament the charge leveled at Israel through the prophets was never that they had abandoned temple worship. It was always because of what they had added to temple worship. They kept the groves and high places.

In the early church parameters of Gnosticism, legalism, antinomianism and several other ideologies were being mixed into Christianity. The apostles condemned these added teachings.

Gnosticism was not seen as full blown but in a hierarchy of upper level Christians who were supposedly receiving direct revelation from God.

How do the members here, who believe in daily or frequent direct revelation, differentiate what you experience from the Gnosticism that the apostles condemned?

How'd you all like that movie this morning?

I'd not post another in the same day, but there's been some discussion on Bible history. That's an interesting topic. This documentary was well done and might be of interest to those who want a greater appreciation for God's Word. It covers ancient source manuscripts for the Latin and Greek N.T.s, the Dead Sea Scrolls to our most modern versions. Well worth the time. Set at 720p for best quality. Blessings!

Nobody here has stated the “daily or frequent direct revelation” that you refer to. That Jesus ‘can’ reveal Himself in any manner He chooses has been stated. That God doesn’t ‘only’ reveal Himself through the Bible has been stated. The apostles didn’t condemn communion with God by means other than a Bible which didn’t even exist yet. They condemned the tenets of gnostic theology that were in direct opposition to the tenets of Christianity. The fact that none of the apostles, and none of the many early first century followers of Jesus had a Bible likely didn’t interfere with their salvation, or their abilities to have communion with God. I’m certain they asked, as we do, for knowledge of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding. Not having a Bible was clearly not an issue with any of em’.

Alright then. I am alive. I'm not sure everybody is though because a lot of them act like pre programmed robots just regurgitating their original programming when I try to talk to them.Me and Jesus got this thing going on where I trust him and he has a great time living my weird and dramatic life right along with me. Yea, sometimes I satisfy my flesh ,but that's OK cause Jesus picked up that tab,and I keep on trying to do better,which is the real and only point anyway. Me and Jesus keep on going working on me.cause I got a big plank sticking out my eye.I got to be able to see clear to help anybody else,but Jesus loves me anyway,which might just mean that I love and accept myself. It might mean both since we are really just one anyway.

I got to keep on working on the truth I know,you know all those little things that the small still voice tells you that you ought to get around to doing instead in just saying someday you will start. Jesus said it was the little foxes that spoil the vine. Do you understand any of that? It all boild down to ,"If you are born again with the Spirit of Truth in you,then no man has to tell you what to do. You know what you ought to do. You have just been making excuses up till now,and telling yourself that someday you will get it right. That someday is now and life is now and Heaven is now,if you live in God,and he lives in and breathes through you.

Ed Brady, "Forgive yourself"

How would your alcoholic uncle know anything?

"The heavens declare the glory of God and the firmament sheweth his handiwork." (Psalm 19)

"Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.(Romans 1:19-21)

Creation shows you a ton about the great God and his Son the Lord Jesus Christ. You (in the collective sense as well as the individual sense ) are without excuse, even without the Bible.

Good to see you posting good Brother. I'll bet those grandchildren are growing like weeds!

Occasionally you seem to forget Doc Rocket's helping us with some historical facts. Or you just to reject them.




Originally Posted By antlers
If ones personal faith and belief in The Messiah is threatened by what others say or believe, or by what ancient manuscripts contain...then maybe the problem isn't with what others say or believe, or with what ancient manuscripts contain.
Answered by Doc Rocket

Well, you're kind of right about this, on a basic level.

However, it appears you are not up to speed on the history surrounding the Canon of New Testament scripture, nor the Judeo-Christian tradition of debate over minutiae! Don't worry, you're not alone. I doubt that 1 Christian in 10 in the USA knows even the basic history of the First Century Church. Nonbelievers, maybe 1 in 1000.

The first thing, i.e., why are we Christians so quick to argue about What others say and believe about the Christian faith, is because what we ALL say about our faith matters to EVERY Christian believer. The traditions of Judaism, outlined in the Torah and multiple rabbinical texts, argue that discussion of every new viewpoint on Scripture is not just desirable, but a mandatory exercise in the Jewish religion. And Christianity, which is nothing more nor less than the fulfillment of the Jewish religion in the person, life works, and teachings of Jesus, has followed that tradition for millennia.

So that's why we argue about it. It's our tradition. If you don't like our tradition, butt out and go take care of your own traditions. I'm not being mean or angry here, I'm just sayin'.

The second thing: why does every new "ancient" text or artifact that pops up stir up immediate opposition by so many Christians? Well, it's because our faith is founded on a very carefully selected set of writings from the first century A.D. While some non-Christians (i.e., outsiders who don't "get" our traditions) may take delight in promoting "new" texts that appear to contradict the Canon of Scripture--because they're mostly ch!tt-disturbers, in my experience--these texts are almost always the same old crap that's been popping up since the 2nd or 3rd century, and which has been cataloged in the Pulp Fiction aisle of the theological library for the better part of 2000 years.

99% of Christians are largely ignorant of the history of the early Church, from the time of the Acts of the Apostles to the Fall of Jerusalem in AD 70. This was a time of enormous expansion of the Church, but the very cool part about it was that while the number of Christians exploded over the course of a few decades, the geographic expansion was very small. This meant that pretty much EVERYone knew somebody who actually knew, was taught by, and witnessed the miracles of Jesus. And the Jews, who comprised the early majority of Christians, were/are real sticklers for THE TRUTH.

This means nobody could bullsh!t about the Gospel of Christ. Posers were recognized and cast out immediately. You couldn't hide behind an internet handle in those days. You were either the real deal, or you got stoned to death. Sometimes you even got stoned to death if you WERE the real deal, so being a poser wasn't exactly a high-paying gig, you know what I'm saying? Oh, and keep in mind that in the First Century it wasn't like today, when any schmoe can write a book and publish it online... if you wrote a book then, the only way it got published was if other people agreed that it was really good stuff, and copied it out by hand for other folks to read.

So the people who actually wrote down the life, words, teachings, and miracles of Jesus were guys who actually knew him. If someone didn't really know him and TELL THE TRUTH as it was known by hundreds of first-hand witnesses, their scribblings would've been ignored. If not burned and the author stoned to death. By the early 2nd Century, the de facto Canon of Scripture we know as the New Testament had been pretty much agreed upon by the vast majority of Church leaders and scholars, based on a very tight-knit history they all shared.

Mark wrote his Gospel first, probably within about 20 years of Jesus' death and resurrection. John's gospel was probably written within a few years of the Fall of Jerusalem, Matthew and Luke somewhere in between. Lots of other folks wrote down their memories of the events, too, but for the most part these were ignored by the Church because the majority of the Churches thought they were incomplete, contained too many untruths, or were flawed in other ways. The four main Gospels were endorsed and widely circulated as a result.

Now, there were some dissenters (as there always are in human affairs) and they started up their own versions of church that were anywhere from slightly wonky to batsh!t-crazy. And by the early 3rd Century, enough of these outliers existed that the orthodox Church had no choice but to lay down the law--in keeping with ancient Judeo-Christian traditions of heterodoxy--and they held a series of councils in which the majority of Christian leaders and scholars said what was the truest material in keeping with the historical writings of Church Fathers. All of batsh!t-crazy gospels were ch!tt-canned at that time, but all manner of non-believers keep bringing them up as "proof" against the Christian religion.

So that's why we care about somebody resurrecting (pun intended) some piece of batsh!t-crazy "Christian" writing from the 6th Century. Our forefathers worked really, really hard to clean up the true story about Jesus for us. They paid for it with their blood and their very lives, and we owe them a debt for that.

And that's why we tend to be derisive and dismissive about "ancient" texts that get "discovered" that were written at least 500 years after the Biblical texts we endorse. It's part of our tradition.

People who aren't Bible-believing Christians can say and think what they like for themselves, but they can't expect us not to defend our religion, our tradition, our history is something precious to us, and we don't care to have fools who are ignorant of our tradition and our history to pass off their ignorance as valid opinion.

I have no problem with anyone defending their beliefs. Especially if they’re honest and civil about it. Doc’s position statement doesn’t negate anything that I said in my original post. I stand by what I said.

Even with the bible, we don't really know happened.

Do you operate with this personal relationship/experience being the means of obtaining knowledge of God and growing spiritually?

It is a means of obtaining knowledge of God and growing spiritually. Obtaining knowledge of God and growing spiritually isn’t only accomplished through the Bible.

Amen. Great post, and thanks for it.

Happy_Camper,

I started watching your posted movie. When they started trying to convince us Jesus changed His mind about baptism I turned it off. Jesus told us at the end of Matthew to make disciples by baptizing them. At the end of Mark Jesus told us one who believes and is baptized will be saved. Most certainly He the Creator of Salvation knows what He requires of His creation.

Ringman,

I'm trying to think of the places that you're talking about. Can you give me the minute mark on the movie and the exact references you are talking about? I think I know which matthew and mark quote, but need to be sure since there's so many versions that differ.
When I have time, I'll take a look at them.

Sorry I missed this. So if a homosexual, after much self examination, decides his truth is that homosexuality is not a sin, even though the Bible specifically condemns it, then its not a sin? Wow. This Christianity thing is easy. If God reveals to my heart that these liberal scumbags need to die, and after much personal examination of why I feel this way, I determine its right. I kill them. Its all good? I'm sure at least one of the child molesting Catholic Priest felt in his heart that it was justified. The others didn't. So it was not a sin for him but it was for the others? That verse about the narrow gate and those entering will be few, that isn't my truth, therefore it isn't so. In other words, edit scripture according to what your heart tells you after self examination.

I hope I misunderstood you.

Well now, what if the homo reads Paul and understands that no one, not one is righteous and by faith accepts Jesus? Is he saved by the sacrifice of Jesus.? Is his ransom paid even though he is too weak to leave his unnatural life?

Hi Ringman.

I agree that we should do what Jesus requires of us.
Since I posted 2 movies, the first was, Eternal or Not.
The other was on the history of the New Testament .
I might be wrong but I'm guessing that you are referring to the first one. I don't remember where anyone said that Jesus changed His mind about baptism. There were lots of interviews so sorry that I missed that. Are you sure that it wasn't one of the introductory religions, since they went to source documents for everything explaining Morman beliefs to Budhism?

I'm using the KJV and looking at Matthew 28:19-20; Mark 16:15-20
I think that you are talking about 16:16
15
"And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;"

Do you believe that water baptism is a work required of the believer or baby for salvation?

I can't correlate your statement to my question. I am asking if it is NOT a sin if your heart says its not, even though its contradictory to scripture. You are asking if a person can be saved if living in a pattern of sin. We are told by John, in 1st John, (and by others in scripture as well), that anyone who lives in a pattern of sin is not saved.

everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. 5 You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. 6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. 8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's[b] seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

Satan underwent as much transformation as God, from an angel/son of god playing the role of adversary in the old testament, to the Devil fighting against God in the Christian theology.

DT, since you dont love GOD, what does it matter to you.

I'm having difficulty with my faith these days.

Fatcity67,

What's seems to be the difficulty?

It's interesting as history. The story of Judaism and Christianity is interesting. The same with Buddhism, Hinduism, etc.

one thing I've noticed in my life is that when I've been in a bind, is that things always work out for me.

Everyone has sinned and fallen short. Let me ask in another way. If a man really believes in Jesus and accepts him through faith but goes into a rage one day and completely out of character kills his neighbor in a dispute. And then admits to God he was wrong. Does he get to keep his salvation? I am sure there are a lot of people who believe Jesus was who he claimed to be and accept him by faith, but in moments of weakness go AWOL. Just wondering what you think. You know King David had a lot of trouble keeping it between the ditches.

Why do you think that is stxhunter...? To what do you attribute that to...?

simple, Faith

Strong work. 👊🏻

I don't know if anyone caught this post this morning since there's been so many. It might answer several questions that came up today. It goes into the beliefs about salvation as taught by different religions. Then it covers the topic from a Biblical perspective. After you watch it, feel free to contact me PM or here and I'll try to get back to answer questions tomorrow evening.
It's called Eternal or Not, the movie.

Yes, of course he "keeps his salvation" (though my belief is once saved always saved, but the question is WERE we ever saved). Conversely, If he murders weekly, asking for forgiveness each time "by the blood of Jesus", but not putting up a good fight nor changing his pattern of sin, with no atonement, then according to John, he never had salvation.

Assume I struggle with an addiction. I know its wrong. I would willingly give in to the addiction if not for the fact that I'm a Christian. God's word is the only reason I fight it. I fight it every day tooth and nail. I win on more days than I lose, but its a continuous battle and I do lose some. Is this a "pattern" of sin? I don't think so. I believe a pattern is if I lose a lot more than I win and have the attitude that its okay, God forgives, and don't fight it with every fiber of my being.

King David, a man after God's own heart, despite his weakness. God also laid a heavy hand on David.

I believe we have lost sight of Gods utter hatred of sin and do not take it nearly as serious as we should. Ask King David. Ask Noah. Most churches romanticize the flood by showing a big beautiful ark full of cute animals. What is not taught is all of the dead rotten human bodies floating on the surface with smell so putrid that it can't be stomached. All humanity, except those on the ark, killed by God because of his hatred of sin. The entire old testament is the same theme. God hates sin, lays down a heavy hand, and the atonement for sin is a blood bath. With Jesus came the new covenant and Jesus blood now atones for our sin. But rest assured, God still hates sin just as much now as he did in the old testament. If a person thinks its as simple as "asking God into their heart" but keeps on sinning, prays for forgiveness, with no attempt for atonement, I'm afraid the narrow gate is going to surprise them.

As mentioned previously in this thread, a thorough reading of scripture proves God is not this big Teddy Bear as he is portrayed in the modern church. God is to be feared.

most folks put too much thought into faith, it's pretty simple either you have it or you don't. You don't need to go to church or prove it to anyone else, its what you know in your heart. People like to make things complicated.

Can you give examples of the means outside of scripture?

Church isn’t about proving your faith it’s about building it up by participation in the means that God has appointed for that purpose.

Christianity isn’t about mere faith for faith’s sake it is about the proper object of faith. That is In the person and work of Jesus the Christ who provided for us salvation by grace alone through faith alone on account of His work alone to the glory of God the Father alone.

Yea,you don't understand at all,but I doubt any further explanation would help.

As HE said, the scriptures are useful as correction. Iirc

Actually I think I do understand. But it does get confusing and convoluted when Truth isnt the Bible. Thats the point. The Bible is THE Truth. Why is it so hard for some (you) to say its wrong because the Bible says so? Instead your response is "The only thing I could tell you about anything is to follow TRUTH. Now,figuring out what TRUTH really is and separating TRUTH from opinion and personal experience is up to you."

Let's just reverse your conjecture so maybe you can see how shallow it is. What you are in effect saying is that you couldn't and wouldn't know TRUTH without your written bible to tell you. You must not even be saved. Isn't the Spirit of TRUTH supposed to live inside you after salvation and guide you into all TRUTH,or did you just think that meant He would tell you to read your bible more?

I



You are absolutely correct. Without the Bible I would be one bad son of bitch. Bank it. My wicked heart would twist shet up bad. My church would look like it was managed by Kid Rock, with ladies in bikinis collecting the tithe, because after all, it would bring in a large crowd and increase the tithing, and I do appreciate a well worn bikini. Meanwhile, back at the church with a gay pastor..........

Yes. Examples of a means outside of the Bible include ALL of the early first century Christians who obtained knowledge of God and grew spiritually outside of the Bible, which didn’t even exist yet. Christianity spread like an airborne disease during its extreme persecution years before the Bible ever existed. These people were not motivated by, guided by, nor comforted by the Bible which didn’t even exist yet. They knew the way and the truth and the life WITHOUT having a Bible to tell them.

In the book of James we are told faith without works is dead. That haunted me for years until I died to self & was born again. Living a lifestyle of sin, instead of being tripped up by sin is different. If one says they are saved, but there was no change in their life they should closely examine their faith. God is to be feared. God is to be loved, and so is our neighbor.

The first century Christians did have the bible. The same one that Jesus used when he opened the scroll. Jesus testified to the veracity of the prophets and the law. The first century Christians surely knew Jesus' teachings. I believe a Christian could do just fine today with only the Old Testament and Matthew's account of Jesus.

Exactly. Well said.

Then,I would say you have sadly placed all your faith-trust in a book of rules,rather than in the living God.

I am totally depraved my man. The Bible is my guide. Guilty as charged. Meanwhile back at the gay church with a bikini offering, there are rumblings that since homosexuality is okay, that adultery should be too. I hear those offering girls are starting to get around. I realize this church sounds a lot like Sodom and Gomorrah that God burned to the ground including the inhabitants, but their heart is their guide, so its all good.

The Law and the Prophets that the Hebrews had is not the Bible as we know it today, and it is not the Bible that is being referred to in these discussions. The Law and the Prophets is not the Christian Bible that we have today (chaptered, versed, mapped, and wrapped). The Christian Bible that we have today is the one that is being referred to in these discussions. But, those first century Jewish Christians didn’t have their lives changed by the Law and the Prophets that they’d been reading and studying and living by for their entire lives. The Apostles didn’t become emboldened and stand up to the very power structure that had Jesus crucified because they were motivated by the Law and the Prophets that they’d been reading and studying and living by for their entire lives.

I really believe James (brother of Jesus) had to be written to straighten out the misinformation spread by Paul. Likewise John in Revelation 2 quoted Jesus who congratulated the church in Ephesus for exposing him. Jesus and John the Baptist both emphasized salvation through repentance exemplified by a changed life and good works. This was nothing new then and has been the theme of the whole bible. The Lord stood ready to forgive at all times. He saved David, Nebuchadnezzar, and the whole city of Nineveh. The story of the prodigal son and the tax collector and many more were told to illustrate the need for repentance. Quoting Jesus "except ye repent, ye shall likewise perish"

Good morning! I thought this might fit?

Hastings, you believe different than every theologian past and present. Things that make you go hummmmmm.

Hastings doesn't like Paul, but we like Hastings. Let's pray on the matter.

What's so sad to me is that you don't understand your own guide. If you did understand you could see that you are operating under the Old Covenant. Just like them you believe that your life is to be guided by a set of written rules and when you break them you must look to the sacrifice for forgiveness as a path back into grace. Seriously think about that. It is a perfect description of the Old Covenant. In order to be born again,you have to understand what the New Covenant is.

The New Covenant doesn't forgive your sins by atonement. The New Covenant destroys sin by remission. Unless you understand that,you will remain ignorant and blind. The New Covenant doesn't forgive all who have sinned and fallen short. The New Covenant gives righteousness to all who believe,even if they don't obey the commandments.That's what the book you claim to follow tells you in Rom.3.

The new Covenant doesn't leave you totally depraved without a set of rules to base your righteousness on. The New Covenant transforms you into a new creation,totally blameless,all things are new and all things of God. At least that's what the book you claim to base your life on says. I suggest you read it sometime and actually try to understand it rather than just going by what somebody told you to believe.

Guilty as charged and everything you said goes against the scripture as I understand it. I'll stick with the Augustine, Thomas Aquinas, Martin Luther, John Calvin, and Jonathan Edwards interpretation.

And you still haven't answered the question without bouncing around. Its simple. According to you, is homosexual pastors okay? Yes or no?

Just like I said in the beginning of this discussion,you just want to feel that you are right. You have no interest in learning anything. I told you a great truth about the New Covenant VS the Old Covenant and you just totally dismissed it without even looking to your own rule book to see if what I told you was actually true. I won't reply to you again unless you come seeking an education.

Thats funny. Another dodge.

Gay pastors, yes or no?

Because I have studied the Bible and agree with most of the top theologians of all time, you concluded that I haven't studied the Bible? Connect those dots for me.

From my observation of your conversation here both of you want to feel that you’re right, although I wouldn’t say that you “just” want that on either side. (I want to feel I’m right too, but I don’t “just” want that)

Sounds to me like, as in so many of these conversations, we have differing categories that make the nomenclature and semantics difficult to navigate requiring grace and a willingness to seek understanding on both sides.

Seems Clint’s question re: the ultimate authority on something like the ordination of same sex attracted men is a fair one and gets to an essential point. If one were ungracious we could assume that’s why you won’t answer it; I tend to believe having interacted with you over the years that you’re most likely talking passed one another and not understanding.

Seems also that RHC’s point concerning freedom under the NC is something to be considered even tho I, like Clint, recognize that an appreciation for those great men who have gone before doesn’t negate that fact but actually they had a great many good things to say about it which would likely reinforce at least some of RHC’s points.

The riches of the glory of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is far beyond individual men to relearn with each generation. Reflection upon the thoughts of great believers of the past is only a bad thing to the extent we lend it the authority only the HS (whose appointed means include the scriptures) should possess.

Grace and peace to all you brothers as you seek to know and follow God better! He is worthy of all blessing and honor and glory!

^^^THIS^^^

I have no problem with the congruence of the whole bible until Paul intervenes. I am not anywhere near Paul's only detractor. But as to all these theologians, the path to destruction is wide and many take it. I take Jesus at his word.

I appreciate that my friend. I haven't posted much here in a while and I'm sure a lot of that has to do with a heightened awareness of having less time to waste. For good or bad,that's probably why my responses seem so curt. My best you you all.

I understand where you’re coming from on this. There is much joy to be had in the simple message that through Christ‘s sinless life, death, burial, & resurrection God has reestablished communion with His people! All we must do is see ourselves as we are and that message as “good news” to be included in that group.

I used this analogy earlier in the thread to address this so please forgive the repeat but I think it’s a fair comparison. I have been married to my wife for 21 years. What would it communicate to her if I’d have, after I “kissed the bride”, gone about my life as if that was the extent of my interest in her? Marriage was just the beginning for us; I love my wife dearly and as a result I want to know her better. Out of gratitude I seek to know how I can serve her in a way that makes her feel valued. What would it say about my love for God if I simply said “hey I’m forgiven and going to heaven that’s all I needed thanks”?

Getting in is simple as is staying in; God has done the work, praise His life giving name! But that doesn’t mean there isn’t great and rich complexity underlying it all. That doesn’t mean there aren’t mysteries that can’t be loved and adoringly searched by those grateful souls who have recognized grace for what it is and want to know their Heavenly Father better.

Writing such a desire off with an eye roll, “yeah you just like to complicate things” seems to miss this very important point.

In Christian theology there’s this’ism and that’ism and a lot of other ism’s. If you choose to go down a certain path to gain a deeper relationship with, and understanding of God, then so be it. But the path ‘you’ choose to travel to achieve that is ‘not’ the ‘only’ path to travel to achieve that. Others also seek a closer walk with God, and desire to learn of Him even more. To think that the ‘only’ path to that is the one that ‘you’ have chosen is simply not true...more than a little bit. To think that “those grateful souls who have recognized grace for what it is and want to know their Heavenly Father better” ‘only’ accomplish that by going down the path that ‘you’ have chosen is also simply not true...and more than a little bit.That hasn’t been said, or done, on this thread.

Well perhaps we’re misreading one another because I took your “^^^THIS^^^” to Roger’s comment as just that, and I never said “mine” was the only anything either.

God and His ways are well beyond me. The more I know, the more I see all I just don’t know. Including, apparently, the meaning of a one word post giving an “amen” to a 6 word post.

I had a boss who quoted that all the time. Mainly to mean "God is in control so I can screw over anyone I want."

Men can and will use anything and everything to take advantage of other men. One could say we’re totally depraved.

Thought I did but apparently I didn’t. I beg your pardon.

What did you mean then??

Just what I said. There was no “eye roll” as you said there was; there was no “Writing such a desire off” as you said there was; and the “yeah you just like to complicate things” that you put in quotation marks didn’t even get said.

I apologize then; wasn’t attempting to mischaracterize.

There does seem to be an underlying suspicion of those of us who find ourselves looking deeper into these things than others. Can you see where I could get that idea?

Am I completely reading that into what you’re saying or is that fair?

Accepted. 😎Those of us who flat-out reject the theology of predestination (for example) aren’t suspicious of its proponents; we just don’t agree with em’ on this matter. Being a proponent of predestination (for example) doesn’t mean that you’ve looked deeper into it than its opponents have.

Antlers, one day the light bulb will come on.

I would love for you to take the time to listen to a "Chosen by God" series by RC Sproul then report back to us on your thoughts.

https://www.ligonier.org/learn/series/chosen_by_god/

People like a lot of things....answers to questions that currently have no answers, life after death, reunion with loved ones, ultimate justice, etc.

I already gotta wear shades...! 😎

I actually enjoy these discussions very much. Especially when folks participate with honesty and civility...most especially honesty. I think they ‘do’ do some good. I think they ‘do’ result in more than just arguments. I have learned a lot, and I have gained some valuable insight, from participation on these threads.

James the brother of Jesus was an old school
Torah compliant Christian, which put him at odds
with Paul,.... Paul then got ostricised,/banished?
So he went away to start his own little spin off cult
which demanded far less of a person to become
a christian.


The Druid teachings were oral and had no
written reference, yet were able to spread
between ancient Britain and mainland Europe
and this despite the fact that unlike Christianity,
were by no means made so easily available to
the common man community at large.




Or consider that with the Bible, the Jesus character
is shown not to meet the criteria of the Messiah
as decribed in OT prophecy.

some do some don't

I agree.



Correct sorry I ought to have said “mankind” as a more general reference to the race not all individuals you’re right.

I know of no Bible that changes the Words of Jesus at the end of Matthew or Mark. The three Bibles I used the most were the King James, The New King James and he New American Standard Bibles. When I was a new Christian I had ten version. Soon I narrowed them down to the three above. back to your movie: As soon as he stopped talking about "faith only". The next thing he started with was "faith plus works" and the first thing he mentioned was faith plus baptism. Not only do we have Jesus' Word about baptism we have examples throughout the Book Of Acts when someone became a believer.

I believe Jesus above everyone else. His Word is too clear to miss for the serious Bible student.

Baptism is like signing a check. If you receive a check in the mail as a gift for no reason, are you working to earn the money if you sign it and cash it?

R H,

You are breaking my heart. One of the first things Jesus says is repent. Jesus says more than once, "If you love Me you will keep my commandments." James says, "Faith without works is dead." If someone does not display obedience to the New Testament, they can't be saved. Jesus says, "By their fruit you will know them."

Jesus says, "Narrow is the way and few find it."

If you have faith, you know the answers.

I've never heard it put that way before.
It's good to hear your point of view. I'm interested your beliefs on this important subject even if we have some different views.
What do you think about this order that Jesus puts things in? I like to picture things and organize them in my mind for understanding. If you were to put things in an order, say first, second, and so forth....(Ie. Gift of the Holy Spirit, salvation, baptism, faith, etc.)
How does this work?
1st.
2.
3.
4th.

From Lecture 1 I got that since Augustine, Aquinas, Luther, Calvin, and Edwards all agree on the Augustinian view of predestination, and in light of the sheer power of their Biblical scholarship, and that they command as much respect as they do, that that should lend much more credence toward me believing in it too. It also reaffirms that God makes His choice about our salvation and ultimate destination before we are even born...and it reaffirms that what God foresees in our life has nothing whatsoever to do with His choice regarding our salvation and ultimate destination...without any consideration of His foreknowledge of our acceptance or rejection with respect to the proclamation of the Gospel.

From Lecture 2 I got that if you don’t believe the part of the Westminster Confession containing these words: “God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and immutably (that is, without possibility of changing it) ordain whatsoever comes to pass;”— that you are an atheist. It affirms that God is sovereign, and by His sovereignty He decrees anything and everything that happens. And He sovereignly elects, chooses, and redeems some, and the rest He passes over...before they were even born, and without regard to His foreknowledge of their acceptance or rejection of the Gospel. One group gets mercy (salvation), and the other group gets the justice that they deserve (destruction).

The answers you feel are true may not be true. What's more important, believing you have the answers, or searching for the truth....finding out things that may not be palatable, perhaps unacceptable, yet true?

stx posts out of confidence.

You post out of fear.

they only matter to me. not asking or telling anyone what they should believe.

You are the man, a true student of the word. I hope you have time to finish them all.

I can't help but love RC. I live about 4 hours from his place. Regret never taking the time to meet him.

Fear? No. The very opposite. Fear is believing in things that may not be true, yet provide comfort: faith. Being promised eternal life may bring comfort, but may not be true. Avoiding the likelihood of death without an afterlife comes out of fear.

Don’t know if I will. Gotta tell ya’ though...I still don’t abide by the theology of predestination. At all. Even more so after those lectures.

Fear of burning in hell for eternity drives
many a christian to believe.




Within what time block period did such extreme
persecution take place? and what was the toll?

.. And how far had Christianity spread?

The bible supports predestination. An omniscient God knowing the end from the beginning, etc....

Thanks. That’s pretty general and I’m not finding anything to sink my teeth into; nothing solid. Do you have personal examples of how you have grown in knowledge and in your relationship with God outside what we find in scripture?

When I read what Paul writes in Romans 8 where he uses the word translate as predestined I see God as the actor and predestined as a verb. That gives a very different understanding of the concept, an action by God rather than God’s knowledge of something.

Without and before getting into a break down of what Paul means I have to acknowledge that Paul is saying that God, in some way, is actively involved.

I can’t remember the exact differences at the moment but Luther and Calvin differed on their understanding of predestination. Luther held the view that Christ’s work was for all mankind and not just the elect.

I’m working on memory but to the best of my recollection Augustine began studying and writing about the subject later in life and hadn’t fully worked through the matter. Both Calvin and Luther studied his work but differed in their understanding of what he was saying. This was in part because Augustine hadn’t worked all the way through but mostly because of differences in their approach to study. Calvin was more Platonic and Luther Aristotelian in technique.

So ‘you’ consider it “pretty general” and can’t find “anything” to sink your teeth into regarding the facts that early first century Christianity began as a small, despised, illicit religious sect, they were treated as criminals, and endured 300 years of empire-wide hostility and persecution, yet Christianity continued to gain adherents among both Jews and non-Jews throughout the Roman world, and ‘they are’ responsible for the survival of the faith that means so much to us today...and they did ALL of this without the Christian Bible which didn’t even exist yet...and ‘you’ find “nothing solid” about any of it...?

I encourage you to finish, you haven't made it to the meat. I'm not trying to persuade you to change your doctrine, but to know your opponent. Consider it a challenge.