Does anyone know what the last year was that chevy built a 2500 without the def? I am in the market for a used 2500 diesel but don’t want to get the blue def stuff.

Was the 07 Classic wasn't it?

Nope, thats when they went all particulate filter-regen BS.



12 or 13 is says on the googler.

I thought my 2006 was the last year of the unmolested Duramax but I could be wrong. Like Jim said they started down the rabbit hole with the 2007 and the particulate filter BS.

Man oh man....I think the 07 Classic is every bit as desirable as the OBS 7.3 and the new body up to 2002 Ford.


I suppose they also made an 07 in the new body.

My son could answer this, I just drive the damn thing. Mine has been a bulletproof vehicle. Rust is starting to creep up on her though.

2010 was the last non def duramax. Thinking they went to def half way through 2010, 2011 on is def.

It ain't the DEF that figging things up.

Granted, I'd rather have one without the DEF requirement, but it's actually the emissions crap on the engine itself that are causing the problems.

DEF just trickles into the exhaust system.

2010. They had a DPF and EGR prior to 2010 but introduced SCR (DEF) with the LML in 2011.

It can be a problem up north here!

Don't know squat about GM diesels, but in our semi engines, the high EGR rates of engines before SCR were the cause of many, MANY more engine problems -- carbon packing, sensor problems, egr coolers plugging, etc, etc, etc. SCR has greatly reduced the need for EGR, and engines are lasting longer, primarily because they stay cleaner. DEF is a PIA, especially in winter up north, but the engines are doing better.

2010

Hell, windshield wipers are optional equipment on a pickup down here...

How hard is it to delete on a Duramax? I know one of the reasons I bought ram 6.7 because a couple hours and $1500 and it's gone if it gives me any drama. EGR block off, straight pipe the filter, tune, and done. So far mines been problem free.

2007 The Big Three all had to introduce DPF in '07. DPF robs a boatload of MPG during the re-gen cycle. DPF is the culprit of the majority of current diesel troubles. DPF equipped diesels from every manufacturer need to be brought up to full operating temp as often as possible. Short trips are the devil to DPF equipped diesels. When it's ~0F, my 6.7L Ford takes about 20Mi of highway driving to come up to full operating temp. Stop and go driving around town won't bring it up to full temp @ 0F.

Someone who either doesn't have to drive a diesel pickup around town, or, has a 20+Min highway drive daily will likely get great service from a new diesel pickup if towing consistently, you could cut those times in half for warmup. Someone who wants to jump in and go, driving across town without warmup or cool-down time is going to experience lots of trouble.

Horse1, there are some variations in there. For instance, my 2007 F-350 PSD doesn't have DPF as that came with the 6.4 PSD in the 2008 model year. I think Dodge (Ram) had a 2007.5 model and GM may have done something similar. I agree with DEF making things a bit cleaner, but you still have the tank, plumbing, sensors, heater, injector, etc. that go with the system.

Here u go ...like looking for hens teeth.?..well other than my yard...

I have a 2011 3500 Duramax dually...believe that was the first year of DEF.....It has not been trouble free, I can assure you !!! Someone made billions while the rest of us deal with DEF .

What is DPF and regen? The reason I wanted to avoid def was how much was used when towing.

My 2007 classic doesn't have it been one hell of a good truck

DPF is the diesel particulate filter. This is the "catch-can" for all the black stuff you no longer see coming out of the tailpipe. There are sensors in that catch-can that measure pressure, when there's enough soot build up the system will inject fuel to raise the exhaust gas temp (EGT) up enough to incinerate the soot in the filter thus "regenerating" the filter to be ready to continue to catch soot.

The DEF/SCR system uses DEF to reduce the frequency of regen cycles that are needed by injecting DEF into the system and catalyzing some of the soot.

My truck uses less DEF when I tow heavy because the EGT's get high enough to keep the DPF clear.

I have a 5Gal DEF tank and very rarely have had to fill it myself between oil changes where the dealer fills it for me. 5K Mi oil changes, mostly highway driving, most of it not towing anymore. My truck has 174K on it. '11 6.7L Ford.

Keeping up with DEF is a non-issue IMO, or at least it has been for me. I live in ND, no issue so far with my DEF system at all. No tank heater troubles. My truck sits outside some or is parked in my attached non-heated garage FWIW.

Just to be safe i know for sure that a 2001 does not have all of that crap on it.

Look 4 a 2004 and a half thu early 06 ...thank me latter.

2006, when the 07's came out my buddy had to scramble to find an new 06 non def.

5gal tank on my duramax, fill it every fourth tank of fuel. Never verified, but I was told trucks shipped as a chassis cab use more?
Mines a 3500 DRW utility bed. I’ve put 20,000ish on it so far.

I am no mechanic, but I was just in the market for a new diesel, and my mechanic neighbors talked me out of it. Both drive Dodge Ram 2500's or at least did. One had nothing but issues and the other did the delete this summer on his. Each of them told me they are seeing the DPF going bad and that they can be costly to fix. I went back with a gas burner, and both neighbors said until DEF/DPF are replaced with something better they have owned their last diesels.

The SCR system is a pain when it malfunctions, but you are barking up the wrong tree if you are worried about DEF costs. $14 gets you 5 gallons of DEF at Walmart or a truck stop, which takes you thousands of miles. DEF as a cost is a pittance compared to the cost of fuel, oil, etc.

Don’t avoid a SCR/DEF equipped truck because of the cost of DEF. If you want a reason to avoid a SCR truck, avoid it because of the maze of sensors and the fact that a SCR truck will also have a DPF and all that stuff lowers mileage and decreases reliability. That being said, they pull more weight better than the older trucks ever did. So..if you need a diesel, get a diesel.

Very good advice.

Very good explanation. Thx.

I have a 2007 LBZ. The 2007.5 is basically the same but they started putting the dpf on them. All my truck had was a metal substrate cat and a egr. Both are easily deleted, for off road use only of course...

I have been running a lot of new trucks lately with the Duramax that are mostly tan and some camo..
They are exempt from emissions restrictions and have a surprising amount of horsepower for a 20,000 lb truck with armor and go through a lot of abuse.
Not sure if the civilian version would be as strong running but I am very impressed by the Duramax.

Before I took my current job I hauled milk. My old boss had a half dozen Marine Cummins ISX 2's hidden in the corner of his barn. Brand new. In the crate. Where all the emissions crap goes on a Cummins ISX cast into the block was "NOT FOR HIGHWAY USE INSIDE THE USA". Damn those things pulled good haha. Terrible fuel mileage but we were pulling ludicrous weight. He would buy Peterbilt glider kits slap the marine engine in them and have the diesel Dr. come and tune it up throw an 18 speed behind it and they went like hell.

The DEF fluid is used to chemically reduce the amount of NOx emissions (NO, NO2, NO3) to N2 gas and H2O.

It Really has nothi g to do with the diesel particulate (soot) filter.

The DEF is Injected downstream of the DPF.

I have an 05 with 315k on the clock. Backed with an Allison its hard to beat. I'd spend good money to replace it with an 06 but you couldn't give me one after 2009.

A buddy has a deleted and chipped 1 ton duramax, I am not sure of the year. That thing is crazy.

http://www.trucktrend.com/how-to/transmission-drivetrain/1301dp-gm-transfer-case-averting-disaster/
Transfer case and injectors were the only internal problems we had with our one and only bought new 2006 lbz Chevrolet Duramax 3500 4x4. The engine and transmission was the best parts of that truck. IMO We farm and tow heavy and the whole truck was wore out around 200k miles and some of the steering components twice. The local dealer put in 9 u joints under warranty for us, but that just might be because it's the exact u joint that a 1982 Blazer uses. I still miss the ride of our Duramax but that's the only thing.
EPA AND EXHAUST EMISSIONS SUCK.

I know our 03 was Pre-EPA BS. It still runs strong. Power train has been flawless except for a crank position sensor at 1500 miles. FWIW, our 2016 has also been trouble free. I keep a couple of gallons of DEF in the bed. It hasn’t been particularly aggravating. The extra power and increased economy is nice. The ride of of the 03 is a Cadillac compared to the newer models.

I do think that knowing what I know now, even though I heavy haul quite a bit, I think I would prefer to own my pickup with the new 7.3 gas engine than the 6.7 diesel it has in it. Although it's not given me any trouble since I bought it, I firmly believe they are more prone to trouble than the gas engines.

Plus, you pay $10k extra for the diesel. That $10k doesn't buy reliability...

The reason I am interested in diesel is more torque at lower RPM, when your pulling up a good hill with a gas truck and the thing drops down into second gear and 4500 RPM you begin to wonder how long this engine is going to last. OTOH all the BS with diesel now makes it somewhat of a toss up. Do you pull over hills at 4500 and 35MPH or do you pay $10K more and endure the BS. As a truck I would drive on a daily basis to the grocery store and then once a month drive multiple days pulling an RV it’s a damn conundrum.

A lot harder than it used to be since the EPA sued all the tuner companies. Bullydog and a few others were almost put out of buisness. You can still delete but you can't get rid of the CEL (check engine lights) with commercially bought tuners. There are programers out there who you can install tunes in your controller that will clear the CEL codes, using them will void any warranty or guarantees you get from company selling the ontroller.

I have an 06 Duramax the LBZ motor is what you're looking for in a Chevy for the most reliable least emmissioned motor pre DPF & DEF. EGR cooler and a catalytic converter is pretty much it. The VIN codes eighth digit of an 06 will either be a "2 or D" on an 07 it's just the "D". If you find a VIN code 2 it's technically an LLY tune on an LBZ motor. So it's lacking about 50 hp at the flywheel, most GM dealerships will retune to the LBZ if you ask. It'll be the cheapest 50 hp you'll ever make. Another way to tell if you have a LBZ motor in 06 is to check the transmission it was the first year of the 6 speed Allison, you should have a +/- button on the shifter and if you put it in manual mode you'll have 1-6 on the digital readout where the odometer is.

The biggest problems with these pickups are the variable vane turbocharger and the EGR cooler. Bulletproof Diesel makes a great EGR cooler replacement since deleting is harder to do now, and is 50 state legal and won't throw a CEL. The turbo gets coked up and the vanes will stop adjusting, making sure you're actually working the truck helps with this. Alot of people also like to add a FAST fuel delivery system, I haven't yet and haven't had any issues.

This^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I don't have a Duramax, mine is a Mercedes Sprinter RV, but DEF in & of itself is not an issue for me......................so far.

MM

Only issues with DEF is it has shelf life of about a year, more or less depending on the temperatures.You have to learn how to read the manufactured date code as some of that stuff at Walmart is on the shelf 6 months or more. I buy mine at Tractor Supply. It is about a $1 more than Walmart and I only add 2.5 gallons at a time. It freezes at 14 degrees F and my 2019 does not have a heater in the DEF tank and no drain valve. So if it goes bad, it is a $300 bill to get it drained and flushed out.

The 2019 has the DEF filler tube back against the firewall under the hood on the passenger side. Heck of a time getting a box up there and pouring it in.The 2020's have that filler back at the fuel door.

I have no problems running up 10,000 ft passes here in Colorado with a 17,000+ pound total load in 4th gear

I have an '06 LBZ with 145K miles. I bought it new as I was originally driving 76 miles round trip to work and needed a truck. I've never towed anything heaviert han a single-axe utility trailer and the heaviest hauled loads was a few loads of oak firewood. It's been an excellent truck. The age of it has small things starting to occur such as headliner coming apart, paint chip, etc. I've looked at new trucks and it pains me to look at sticker prices. I paid $42K out the door for my 4x4 LT3/LBZ Crew Cab Duramax. You can't even find a crew cab 4x4 half-ton today for that price. This is my first and last diesel truck. Too much BS on the newer trucks and I'm not paying small home prices for a truck.

I’ve got an 08. No DEF and had it deleted and running a tuner with 3 settings. Has 352k on it and just started to see bubbles on the bedside. It has been a beast of a truck. Hard on front end though.

well I found a 2006 on the west coast, 2000 miles from my location, for $30,000 only has 90,000 miles on it. I guess I better look at gas trucks.

My buddy actually has a 2004.5 that I am thinking about buying. It has 240,000 miles thought and that makes me a bit nervous. The body is also pretty rusty being from Michigan. Anything to worry about?

Ford is going to sell a lot of 7.3 gasser's I think.

I have read anything on it yet, how does it compare to their v10? Couple companies around here run the 6.8 V10 in crew trucks with low maintenance and high miles

Built for durability. Cast iron block. Four bolt main's plus crossbolts. Pushrod engine. Naturally aspirated . Performance is good for a gas engine. Getting good reviews so far as I've seen.
Expect a lot of aftermarket performance upgrades if you like that sort of stuff. Does not have the torque the diesel does, but the ten speed transmission matches up well with it.

I drove a 2020 F350 crew cab with the 7.3 gas engine for a few miles. I was returning to the dealer when I looked down at the speedometer. I was doing 70 in a 55. - never realized I was going that fast. From the online reviews I've read, the 7.3 gas engine gets between 14-15mpg highway empty. That's not what you'd get with the diesel engine, so when you're at the pump just remember you're not paying for gallons of oil at each oil change, constant fuel filter changes, and DEF fluid.

Prices this morning:

$2.04/gallon for diesel and $2.32/gallon for low grade unleaded.

I get 20mpg in my 2019 Duramax. That equates to $510.00 of fuel per 5,000 mile per oil change. DEF is about $25 for 5 gallons where I live which will also carry me about 5,000 miles, so figure $25 in DEF per oil change. Running full synthetic, and even if you paid for the service, you’d maybe be around $150 for the oil change. I change my fuel filter at 15,000 miles for about $70 ($23.33 per oil change). That said, a 5,000 mile interval with the concerns you’ve listed costs me about $708.33 in my diesel.

At 15mpg and $2.32/gallon, 5,000 miles is $773. I’m assuming oil changes in gassers aren’t free, but I’m already money ahead so I’ll let you do the rest of the math...

Maybe in AK but here diesel is anywhere from 15-20 cents higher per gallon than unleaded. Not sure on GM's but on a Ford the Powerstroke is a $10,800 option vs $1700 for the 7.3 gas. But I'll let you do the rest of the math.....

The rest of the math is that a diesel engine in a pickup is about a $10k option.

Now who's ahead?

The Ford 7.3 had not thought of a Ford but maybe I better rethink this.

I'd trade my 6.7 diesel for one.

It wasn't an option in 2017 when I bought my pickup though.

I have a 2011 Duramax LML and I’ve never seen 20 mpg ever. Best I ever got was 19 something on a long, flat, low altitude unloaded interstate run with no stops. I average around 14.5 to 15.5 unloaded in mixed driving. Same truck with the GM 6.0 liter is around 11-12 mpg. I think a lot of guys are wrapped up in reporting the single best mpg they have ever seen as an average. Kind of like guys post their single best group their rifle has ever shot as an average.

Had diesel fuel here for $1.77/gallon at the Maverick station this week

About the same here. Regular unleaded is within a cent or two.

I have enjoyed the low fuel prices while feeding thirsty tractors and equipment this year. But I'd rather have a strong economy.

I bought one of the new 7.3's this spring, first gas pickup I've owned in 27 yrs. So far I'm completely happy with it, lots of low end torque. Heaviest I've weighed is a little over 20K pulling one of my tractors.
Average running around everyday is 13.5 mpg, the 2013 Powerstroke it replaced only averaged 16 mpg.

I'm only getting 13.5-14 mpg with my Powerstroke.

If anyone needs a SUPER clean ‘07 one ton I know where to find one. It’s a conversion done by 2L and is so nice I’d buy it if I had a need. My taxidermist has it and it’s got roughly 100K in it. Honestly looks new. Just throwing it out there in case someone is interested.

Spoke too soon, threw a code Sat AM, going in for either a line heater or a tank heater (or possibly both I guess) today.

JAPANESE diesel Power !!!!

Which make and model would that be???

The Duramax engine is designed by Isuzu.

Makes you wonder why Toyota/Nissan hasnt entered the 3/4 town diesel market. Or even the 3/4 ton market.


Makes you wonder why Toyota or Nissan hasnt entered the 3/4 town diesel market. Or even the 3/4 ton market.

They did. The Nissan/Cummins abortion

IIRC, it wasnt a true 3/4 ton, kind of a souped up 1/2 ton.

Yeah I didn't think that was an over 8500 GVW pickup.