What’s your accuracy requirements for SHTF Rifle Ammo?

Minute of commie.

Defensive ops...3moa. Surgical offense(shoot and scoot, 1 shot and back to the day job) sub moa.

Can't MOA be made right by pray and spray?

Minute Of Azzhole. One shot, one or more dead.

Spray and pray is a profoundly poor tactic.

Accuracy by volume.

I value reliability over accuracy.

Volume fire and the less than precision weapons used to accomplish that is just a facet of small unit tactics, known for generations as fire and maneuver. Say, fire team A lays down heavy fire to keep the enemy's heads down while fire team B moves to an advantageous position. The whole concept requires manpower and coordination. A purely military exercise. SHTF by it's very nature seldom will involve more than two men, so it's tactics must evolve to a more sniper oriented mission, to remove the enemy command and control, followed by escape and evasion with pre planned routes with redundancies. Accurate fire, rapid hit and run, define SHTF. Blood and casualties demoralize the enemy, the sound of gunfire does not.

It’s the Indian, not the arrow, vast majority of rifles produce necessary accuracy, it’s can you shoot under duress & return accurate fire 🤷🏻‍♂️

My gauge was always minute of cigarette pack. I’d expect that to expand significantly under duress, but then if you’re capable of going from minute of cig pack to paper plate, you’re still a force to be reckoned with.


But it’s good to have a few canned rifles capable of 1” groups or better.

Situational awareness & tactics liable to be far more important.

These days my first line of defense is a 30" full choked 12 gauge loaded with federal premium copper plated 00.

Depends a lot on which rifle.

If my AK goes BANG it passes.

The ARs are held to a higher standard, the ammo makes a big difference. At least about 1.5 MOA. One is .5 MOA with its preferred load.

Shotgun, well.....

M.O.P.P....... Minute of paper plate, for 7.62x39 stuff. 12 ga. "00" Buck ? I don't know but I may play with some this spring as I have almost zero experience with it.

Clearly, Divine Intervention

Bust open a head. I am a zombie killer.

Every rifle I own is an moa rifle except my Garand which is 1 1/2 moa good enough. Shotguns are all patterned for their particular load and have been proven on coyotes.

I can shoot my .308 bolt gun offhand and hold minute of melon at 100 yards .

What ever a the Tactical mini 14 will do

Same guarantee lake city gives the U.S Army with their 62gr green tip 2-3 moa..

Word of advice for all you wanna be revolutionaries aim for the belt line..,

Minute of DRT.

100 yards, PMC M855 equivalent.


100 yards, 7.62x39 Golden Tiger 124gr FMJBT



100 yards, M855.


308 Win handload. 100 yards and 1120 yards.

You may need to play with that months before Spring gets here.

Yes sir, especially playing with the 00 buck. Aim for the belt buckle

KC

I pretty much have a goal of 1 moa for all long guns (even my 45-70)......somewhat less for handguns! Good to go on most! memtb

lol I can shoot minute of paper plate at 100 yards with my 3 inch ruger sps 101.

Most combat in open fields takes place at 300 meters and under and 75% of that at 150 and under. Most urban combat takes place at 100 and less, and a lot taking place at feet not yards. So accuracy is more about the shooter then the tool. Shooting someone that's trying to do you and your buddies harm, while you heart rate is like a hummingbird, and while your targets are moving and hiding as well as they can, is not near as easy as most (who have not done it) think it is.

Having been on the wrong end of AKs many times, I am still convinced that for the average town or city dweller, one of the best (if not THE best) weapons you can have in an AK47. They are not usually super accurate, but they are reliable and easy to use. With the advent of scope mounts that actually work on AKS I am of the opinion that a militia member or unit, armed with AKs that are set up with low powered scopes might just be the very best type of weapon that could be asked for by a soldier.

In reality a 3 MOA weapon and ammo with which you can use to hit a 5 MOA target in 1-2 seconds is way better then a 1/4 MOA weapon you can hit a 1/4" target with in 10 seconds.

You will almost never have 10 seconds to make a shot in a fight. Shoot as fast as you can make hits, BUT NO FASTER! Thinking you can hit a "1/2" target" is not realistic because if your target is 1/2" part of a man, you will not know for sure who the man is--------- and if he should be shot or not.

I have real experience in both areas. (USMC and later working for DOD as a trainer for troops, favored by our government) Precision shooting does have it's place, but in real fights you'll find that even as a sniper you fire most shots in combat at under 500 and a lot at 350 or there-abouts, but what you shoot at is often going to be a "piece of the enemy" shot through a hole in a wall, a gap in the brush or trees or between rocks. In fights that are comprised of dozens of bad guys VS dozens of good guys, about 99% of the shots are going to be close, and pretty fast. If the SHTF scenario is to come to be, going after the enemy and taking the war to them is how you will win. NEVER in a defensive mindset. if 19,000 japs can't hold Iwo Jima with 4 years to get ready, you are NOT going to hold you position either. Patton told the world and he was right. "Fortified positions are monuments to the stupidity of man". If [bleep], you need to go hunting, not waiting for the enemy to dictate the rules of the contest. Go AFTER THEM and let them worry about defending their homes.

Practical and useful accuracy for war is about fire and maneuver. You need to have the initiative. In civilian shooting think flushing birds not sniping prairie dogs.

So "accuracy" is BY FAR more about the man than it is the weapon or ammo.

If you have a 1/2 MOA weapon and ammo that is NEVER a bad thing, but the usefulness of 1/4 MOA over 1.5 MOA will not be seen in 1 shot out of 1000 in a real war. More accuracy is never a disadvantage, but in most cases anything better then 2MOA will never be noticed in a real war. It may be for taking out a few the communist leaders, but only for about the first 2 days of the war.

After that all of the leaders are going to be in hiding and the only want to get them is to go after them and kill all those loyal to them 1st. Standard rifles, shotguns and fire bombs are going to be doing the bulk of the damage to the enemy. Like about 99.999% of it.

Wouldn’t argue your thoughts about combat ops, but rebellion/civil war won’t fit that mould out of the starting gate. Maybe later when things get organized if it lasts that long.

Another point has to do with who picks a fight with who and where. Part of Floriduh I call home has either light urban or rural development. Most of the rest is dense woods and a fella would be pressed to find a shot much over 50 yards. Kinda like my “yard”. Come and screw with me and mine, you will not hear or see the old fart that puts you down. Might even be surprised by how it happens.

Free tip to all you scattergun disciples: You can do better than 00 buck and a full choke. If you have the time and inclination open your choke a bit and try some #1 or smaller. It takes the guess work out of longer shots, like up to around 50 yds or so. And yes’ shoot ‘em in the belly button. Easy way to make monsters cry. Before they die.

A realist would match his tactics and weapons to his abilities. Fire and maneuver is a young mans game and is largely dependent on establishing a solid base of fire and is most effective when performed by a team. Shoot and scoot is the best option for a singleton or small unsupported team. As DD said, an intimacy w/ the terrain and picking the time and place of action is a basic necessity.

Try running 50 yards then shooting a 6" target off hand in<3 seconds after stopping and repeat ad nauseum.

I'm up, they see me, I'm down. There is a ton of good info available on current tactics in real combat in urban and rural terrain. Many folks would be best served by doing more PT.


mike r

Methinks there are very few on here ,other then those who have BTDT in an actual combat situation, that would be able to maintain any type of tactics or field accuracy when faced with being shot back at. Static range accuracy only goes so far when the dynamics of combat are in place!

...............Bladeworks!

Just below the vest?

Unless it's coming from one of those things you used to be in . Then it could be a lifesaver

Create distance. Rio7

Mine shoot 1.5 MOA which is plenty good enough.

I was never in the service, but I have been in a BB gun fight.

I learned that standing up is when I get hit.

Especially if you're alone without uncle sugar supplying ammo by the truck/plane/helo load.

What your preferred bullet for SHTF rifle ammo?
FMJ, or expanding soft point?

I load my SHTF mags one of each, alternating.

My Suppressed 300BO SBR that is kept bedside its Barnes 110gr TacTx and the other 5.56 ARs that are kept around the house are loaded with soft points, mainly 62gr Fusions and Gold Dots. Have 10 or so mags loaded with same but the balance of my loaded mags are 193 FMJs and some 855 green tip.

My best friend during Grad school was Matt Marshall. His dad is Evan Marshall, the guy that wrote a book on stopping power. I asked him once what was the best handgun to keep in my car. He said you should keep a rifle in your car and a hand gun on you to fight your way back to it. He suggested an sks converted to 30 round mags. I said I had one and it wasn't very accurate. He said it was plenty accurate for a battle rifle. He said you'll be gunning and running not shooting groups from a bench.

I've been meaning to get an AK but worry I missed my chance. I almost bought a palmetto last year but someone told me nit to that there were better ones. I hesitated.

I'm now finishing a 8.5" 300 BO with a bracelet that'll ride in a vehicle when done.

Bb

Yep, the only reason for a pistol is because you can't carry a rifle everywhwre.

One inch 400 yards!

I can shoot a pistol better than a lot can a rifle.... lol.

I have been loading 63 grain SMPs. Mostly for urban warfare and home defense out of a Mini 14 and a couple of AR 14.5 carbines.
kwg

IIRC, about 80 yards. Sitting against the truck tire. 7.62x39. Tula 122gr FMJ, or smilar.

One thing I do know


If the shtf


I’m glad I’m on your guys side

That right their is the god honest truth far as gunning and running.... I built a 7.5 300 blackout I shoot 130gr hollow points at 100yds with peep sights I could make someone day very uncomfortable. I was surprised at the accuracy. I use Winchester 296 17.5gr if I remember right.

Yes vests cover right about belt line.. or their side when they raise their arms exposes the non protected sides..

would not want to be the one on the other end of my colt AR because I'm going to shoot you in the head.

Here’s what I got.
I have developed accuracy loads for all my ARs. They all shoot nice tiny groups, even my 7.62 x 39 Armalite.
Most of my brass for these rifles is all loaded and ready to go, cept for my 223/5.56, I still have about 1K to load. That’s not a problem because I have the bullets, powder and primers.

The problem is with my Ruger Mini-30. It’s a custom built Bull barrel with a .308 bore. I have developed accuracy loads for this over the years with several different bullet weights, brands and types.
A few weeks ago I was organizing my reloading room and the piles of brass. I uncovered two boxes of IMI 7.62 x 39 brass 1K per box. Now I need to fill this brass.

...but I don’t have enough of the same bullet brand, weight and type to load all this brass, I have enough bullets, just not all the same, so POI will vary, some a little some a lot.
I have 125gr, 130gr, 135gr, FMJ, SP, Ballistic Tip, Match and Single Shot Pistol, I also have a bunch of 150 gr, but I’m leaving them out for now.

I’m hoping to come up with a load with all these different bullets that will produce acceptable SHTF Accuracy.
I’m hoping for 3 inches at 2400fps
Possible?

Well we all would... center of mass wins everyday... the point of war in my opinion is to make their buddies see them suffer.. They see their bros crying for momma guts hanging out will suck the fight right out of them..

Well, I think I am satisfied.

I loaded everything I had for my Mini 30 that I had in stock.

New IMI 7.62 x 39 Brass with various .308 bullets. My Mini is a .308 bore custom barrel.

I had 2K brass and ended up with about 300 left with no bullets to seat.

Bullets.
125gr Nosler Ballistic Tip
125gr Hornady FMJ
125gr Sierra Pro Hunter
130gr Hornady SP
130gr Speer Varmint HP
130gr Speer FN

All were loaded with 27.7gr AA 1680

Target was set out at 80 yards
No bench, off the hood of my truck

Ultra Dot red dot sight.

The top group of 4 were the Hornady FMJ

https://i.postimg.cc/MTFKN9hc/IMG-1249.jpg

Mostly this.

Not keen on other posts advising "belt buckle" shots.
Though a pelvic cradle hit is an immediate mobility disabler it usually takes several minutes to bleed out.
Generally lots of screaming too. Don't ask.

My philosophy was alway, if someone is worth shooting, they're worth killing. Go for upper thoracic hits, the closer to center line the more effective they are, and don't be stingy. Several hits good!

Don't get too wrapped around the axle about ammo. Use the best, most accurate you can, but I have shot through car doors and rims with 5.56 frange.

As always, the better Indian you are, the less the arrows matter.

2 MOA

At what distance?

Uh 2600yds anything after that, it is in the eye..

One more thing.

In all the "dust ups" I've been in there are 2 things I never wished for.
1. A smaller gun
2. Less ammo

A buddy of mine picked 5.56 green tip out of a chest rack full of ak mags (the bearer was dead from multiple hits elsewhere). We had whittled them down between 400-500m. In my experience 5.56 is plenty leathal to 300-350m. After that get something bigger. Just my 2 cents.

LOL

You should change your handle to "DustUp."

If things go south rapidly, we are looking at no logistics, not much back up or support, virtually nothing in the way of medical assistance and no rest. Bravado won’t cut it.

Hahahahaha thanks for the laugh. That was a good one. Lemme guess, you slapped a guy around at a gun range once

Yep, did that too.

Let me know when you want to go to the range princess.

Finally, ,a genuine internet hero. Thank you for your service, can you tell us more? We all will understand if those pesky NDAs and Persec concerns preclude more succinct tales of your adventures.

Waiting breathlessly,



mike r

Pay attention Colorado, that's how it's done!

Pay attention Colorado, that's how it's done!

Who, pray tell is Colorado and how is what done? Don't be a tease we are all eagerly awaiting your mind biscuits.


mike r

Thought this was a forum where people came to share and learn from other's experiences.

And give each other [bleep].

I have my experiences and I'm sure you do as well. If you don't like what I have say, ignore it.

Funny, I was always interested in stopping the fight while placing the heaviest burden on my enemy.

Wounded are a bigger burden for one’s enemy than dead compatriots. Their screams are more distracting to your foe than yourself. The last thing that changes direction as your enemy seeks to evade fire is their bellybutton.

Neither will you.

LOL

So who are you going to be fighting? Probably not a trained army. Probably some BLM or Antifa jerks. They're gonna be scared if someone puts rounds on them. Under these circumstances, a fortification might work fine. I don't think they're gonna do fire and maneuver. In fact, when they hear the crack (sonic boom) of rounds going over their head or close, they'll probably remember they had an appointment on the other side of town.

As for where to shoot, won't a 30-06 penetrate a bullet proof vest? 30-06 152 grain ball ammo will penetrate 1/4 inch of steel. So shoot center of mass.

As for accuracy, I think 3 MOA is enough to hit humans at ranges up to 500 yards. Doubt if they'll be that far.

Almost any rifle made will shoot better than 3 MOA. So I would not worry about rifle accuracy, just effectiveness.

Can't argue with that. Most of my experience was with bearded sand vermin, not an honourable foe. Life is far less meaningful to them and they certainly didn't try very hard to help their own. Also, much of that was "dynamic", meaning move to and past. Never wanted a wiggling enemy behind me.
You bring up a good point worth consideration in other circumstances.

Alls I knows is that unless you have one helluva land setup, good comms, and enough people to post 24/7 watch on all approaches, if you're shooting, you're doing it wrong.

SHTF here is probably gonna look more like Argentina did than The Walking Dead episodes where they're fighting Negan's guys......

Depends a bit on the nature of the vest. There have been advancements over the years but I doubt a soft vest will stop a .30-06. If perchance I’m wrong know the recipient will have multiple broken ribs at POI. Armor plate will stop .30 cal AP projectiles. Still might have some cracked ribs, and likely some lacerations on face and arms from spall.