A good read...

https://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2021/01/73456/

YMMV

A good read indeed. Thanks for posting it.

Truth.

Surprised this post did not get more responses.

The gist of the paper is that screwing everything in sight is not the path to a fulfilled life, but marriage and children are. It's how we are built.

It's an idiotic viewpoint that doesn't mention or recognize what the real problem is.

Here's the guy that wrote it:




LOL

Which is what, pappa Clark?

Looks like that guy is just PO'ed because he doesn't have any game.

The bottom line with respect to families is that birth rates are plummeting all across the collective West, to include Japan and Singapore.

Marriage rates falling, single parent homes increasing.

Judge a book by it's cover much? Reminds me of some guys here on the fire that dismiss anything someone says if they haven't killed X number of elk or Y number of deer, etc. Bet if we all posted pics of ourselves, a lot of us would lose credibility, LOL.

Please enlighten us as to the real problem. I hope that your take is that it is our estrangement from Christianity. When people see themselves as just another animal, well, animal behavior is what results. What do animals do? They screw everything in sight and leave mama to raise the young; rinse and repeat. Doesn't work so well with humans. Marriage and children is the path God set forth for us from the very beginning. It can be argued that most of society's ills are the result of unmarried people not keeping their clothes on, and subsequent proliferation of fatherless kids, in addition to the spiritual emptiness that the author describes.

A big part of the problem is, a lot of young people today don't see any path to making enough money to set up housekeeping and raising kids.

Another is, young men are shying away from marriage because in the event of a divorce, the man will be financially ruined for all of eternity.

Basically, young people see the marriage "thing" as something that's not available to them. It's something the previous generations participated in.

There's a lot of truth to this.

Young men today just want to jerk off and play video games till theyre 35

That's an interesting article. Kinda exhibits the extremes between the Victorian era and today.

Several years ago, the author Tom Wolfe wrote an in-depth book about the same subject. His wit and astute observations made it very readable . I can't remember the exact title but it might have been Hooking Up. (?) I had a copy but have no idea where it is now. Worth a read if you get a copy.

L.W.

Well perhaps It is because we are the "shoot every bit of paper, steel and selected game in sight" group we don't have time to screw everything in sight? That would inhibit our search for fulfilment via reloading supplies.

No time for "finger banging Mary Beth rottoncrotch through her frilly pink....."

indeed. lot's of family stuff was begun to create a growing, and viable economy. no need to get into that. it'll just ruffle feathers, cause the bristles on the back of the neck of some individuals to rise up.

not being able to afford a family is very real. that is, they'd be in deep poverty from the start and who wants their baby to have to endure that?

sex drive is with us though. well some of us.

as we move further into the post modern world and economy old patterns of behavior are breaking down, for better or worse.

Fluid transfer........ uhhhh no!

A Communion of Anxiety: A Gathering of Trumpsters and the Offspring of Trumpsters.

AC,

The current reality of the dating world is much worse than this author can even imagine, and he's completely missed the true root causes.

In many sphere's Social Media and hook up apps have broken women's ability to accurately gauge their value to potential male suitors. They confuse their number of followers and likes on facebook post with the number of men willing to marry them.

Like wise on hook up app, 80% of the women are only selecting 20% of the men. These men are happy to bed them for a night or two, but too many average women mis-interpret these encounter as what they can expect for marriage. Since these top men have options, Miss Average gets plenty of hookup, but no proposals from the men she's after. After about the age of 25, her prospects diminish every year after that until at age 30 she hits "the wall". This is where she goes into panic mode trying to lock down a high value man, but the 35 year old man has plenty of prospects in the 23-28 age range, so they are just not interested.

Here's an interesting look into the psyche of the Modern Woman who over values herself on the dating market, and what she has to look forward to:

Yessir.
Today’s local newspaper has an article about the proposed 15$/hour minimum wage “helping 50% of the workforce in Louisiana “.

Baby momma need babies for the perpetual money stream. Baby daddy says ‘I can help wit dat’.

For better or worse?

What’s the upside, Gus?

Nailed it.

Here’s a guess. What do you think the majority of parents did with their kids today?

Will add, today it's socially acceptable to have a partner and not a spouse.
And it's also OK with most, if the partner is same sex, and or thinks they are an animal or alien.

Yes there is.

Now consider that 80% of all divorces are filed by women.

That’s not a new phenomenon.

All that's true. Another issue is that young people who spent their teens and twenties "hooking up" with everything that walks are damaged to the point that they're incapable of forming a committed relationship. The saying that "you can't turn a ho into a housewife" is true, if they view sex as something as mundane as shopping for groceries then they're likely to cheat on you the first times they get pissed off at you, and as any married man knows they're pissed off at you half the time. The likelihood of being cheated on if you marry one of these hookup culture partners is extremely high, then you've got to decide if you'll put up with it and stay married or divorce them and lose most of your money and property.

And that's why so many men are choosing not to marry those women.
The risks outweigh the rewards.

True.
The move to cohabitation without documents of union was led by men for the reason you just stated.

Next time instead of marriage I’m just gonna go find a women that I despise and buy her a house, once said another poster here.

Two words...pre-nup.

Y'all think that concept is limited to women? LOL

Including pre common law cohabitation.

You're missing the point. This is not an EITHER/OR scenario. Variety is the spice of life.

Said those in gay marriage.

We ALL know why your buddy always takes you out fishing on his boat. No one else will catch for him . LOL

I am not convinced that this is true. I also think that there are some additional reasons for this. With the elimination of any legal distinction in the status of children as either “legitimate” or “illegitimate,” and the rise of no-fault divorce, what really is the point besides religious beliefs and certain legal rights afforded those with married status, such as inheritance, tax benefits and medical decisions? A true commitment can be backed up by paper or not, and paper does not prove commitment in any event.

We ALL know you’re a sock puppet.

The current trend in the Men's Movement is well past cohabitation without documentation. The direction now is toward no cohabitation, and no long term relationships. The primary drivers behind this is women filing 80% of the divorces, and the financial ruin visited upon men in the process.

There’s only one sock puppet here. Blessings to you and your “very best friend”.

More like a cock bucket.

You guys bring up a lot of good points.

I think a lot of it has to do with expectation. For me, marriage was something I thought successful people did, not something for the poor. I didn't even start looking for a wife until I had a relatively stable, good paying job. Also, sex was so available, what if I married and something better came along?

Those are both pretty FU sentiments, but they are even more common today. All that waiting for more, waiting for better is really a form of depression or causes a form of depression. You should see some of the kids I work with - yes, they have a decent job, but they have no hope or vision for the future, no idea about fulfillment. And, they even look depressed.

Both true.

And not untied to the modern interpretation of what it means to be a mother and wife. There is a lot of talk about what it means to be a man. We've heard it a million times. It means providing, working whatever job you can to put food on the table and a roof over heads. Doing whatever it takes to do the aforementioned.

Being a Mom means not dumping your kid(s) off at daycare/preschool because you have a "job" and need to be "whatever". Being a Mom is the highest calling a woman could ever have. That does NOT mean dumping your kid(s) off for someone else to raise during their formative years. It means being there with them for their first 5-6 years minimum all day, every day. If being around your kid is tiresome, or loathesome then you should have had your tubes tied and gone on pretending to be a man or working a room at a cathouse.

My opinions are based on a two parent home, which is not the norm in America anymore apparently.

Time for another beer run on your queermobile, ruckus.

I got married when neither of us had a penny to our name. Had a kid soon after. Had negative pennies to our names. Climbed out of the hole because this is America and I can.

Marriage isn't tied to money, it's tied to commitment.

I must confess that I am not up on the Men's Movement. I didn't even realize that it was a thing. But, based upon those primary drivers, I think it is a good thing that those people stay out of relationships. Relationships involve risk.

On top of everything else already mentioned, it doesn't help that the young kids nowadays have easy access to porn, and all the 'new age' BS via their gizmo.

Nothing is sacred anymore.

ol sam keen and his fire in the belly writings gave me my first glimpse of the man's movement.

to drive a little down the ditch on the side of the road, many thinks we have grown as an economy about as much as we will for a long spell. economic growth spawns marriages, babies, and debt. well, we have plenty of debt. but a bright outlook begets new household formation.

a lot of folks are living with mom and dad, and getting covered by their parents insurance until they're 26.

but still, people if healthy normally wants sex whether they get satisfied or not.

Blessings friend

Cheyenne,

I'm guessing it's been a long time since you've had exposure to the dating scene, especially as it applies in the big cities. Dating and marriage has always been complex.

The risks we are discussing are not trivial. Up to 60% of marriages ending in divorce. 80% of those filed by women. For the man getting married today without a solid prenup, that equates to roughly a 50% chance that she'll decide to take half his stuff and leave him. At least in Colorado custody is a 50/50 split, but in a place like Wyoming, the man can effectively kiss his kids good by, along with 40% of his future income in child support. Again, there are not trivial risks.

As previously mentioned social media's not helping. Several studies demonstrated a linkage between increased social media usage and increased divorce rates. My hypothesis for this is as I stated above. Women get on Facebook, think they can do better, and breakup the family. Of course all their Facebook White Knights and Simps don't really want to raise her three kids, so at the end of the day, who's the biggest looser, that's right, it's the father.

None of this happened by accident.

It’s only a reaction to society’s directions.

BGG,
And when did you get married?
Sure, that worked in your day, but watch the video I posted above. That's not what women expect. The current trend is for them to expect a man:

At least 6 feet tall. (14% of men)
Bachler's degree or greater, no trade schools, because men in the trades are "low status" (25% of men)
6 figure income (10% of men)
6 figures of home equity
6 figure bank account

How many of those had applied to you at the time you married your wife? I'm guessing maybe the 6" in height, maybe the degree, but none of the rest?
Too many modern women are not looking to build a future with a good man in the same way that your wife did. Instead, they expect to wait at the finish line, and scoop him up as he crosses, so he can rescue them from the 200k in student loans and credit card (70& of all student loan balances are held by women, and 80% of all consumer debt is held by women) after they had all their fun in their 20's hooking up and partying.

Tyrone,

Glad you did it right. Guys who follow your model, wait until they are in their 30's and established have the most options in the dating market. The current trend if for the most options to be available to guys between the ages of 32 and 36, and up to 45 depending upon their resources, and for them to snap up the most desirable women, being those between 22 and 26, with low body counts, so they have not lost their ability to pair bond, and not so educated that they have 200k in debt and unrealistic expectations regarding what men bring to the table.

Of course this leave a lot of highly educated, debt ridden bitter 30+ year old women who can't find a man to meet their white knight standards, unless they are willing to look to guys 20+ years older. This will be very good for the market for cat food and pet toys, but not so good for sales of double cemetery plots, unless one is for her cat.

Where in the hell did you get 35?

Well, you're right, I have not had any personal exposure to the dating scene other than being around some younger people who are in it.

As far as child support goes, that is going to hit someone whether he is married or not and whether he gets custody or visitation or not. Hookup guy can still get nailed with that. As far as property splits go, Wyoming is weird compared to the other place I lived, which was a community property state with some cut and dried rules that pretty much let each person keep their separate property and split the community property. (Side note: you seem to be assuming that most or all of the property was brought in by the man rather than through reciprocal effort, so he is losing "his" stuff rather than divvying up their stuff.) That will vary from place to place, and a pre-nup may be a good idea if state law is bad or if there is a disparity of assets going in. It is especially important in a second marriage, which has a higher divorce rate, usually involves kids, and may involve disparate assets.

Women today most desire a man between the ages of 32 and 36, so why not wait until they are ready to chase you?

Cheyenne, you make some good points. Yes, I'm presupposing that in the majority of instances the man will bring more assets and earning power to the relationship. In general, men choose women for their beauty, and women choose men for their status. Women marry men of equal or higher status. The technical term for this is hypergamy, and occurs in the vast majority of marriages. Unfortunately the biggest thing women are bringing to relationships today is debt. They have 70% of the student loan debt, while men hold the higher paying degrees, which feeds into the next stat, they also hold 80% of the credit card debt.

So on average, a man getting married today can expect the woman to have twice the student loan debt, 4x his consumer debt, and few assets, and lower earning potential. Of course this is not always the case, but it is the median case. Today, two of the worst things for a marriage is the man pay off all his wife's debt, or the woman getting promoted to a position faster then her husband. Both strongly correlate with increased divorce rates.

AS, I’ve read all of your posts on this thread...and they remind me of this...“If such is the case of a man with his wife, it is better not to marry.” - Matthew 19:10.

Tell your sons, tell your grandsons....best to be careful out there and to choose wisely.

Oh, no! I think I did it fairly wrong!

On the positive side, I don't think I could have found a better wife. So I didn't do it completely wrong. But, it took me that long to figure out what a good woman is like, or, I was too caught up in chasing sex, not believing that I'd ever find the right woman. I think culture is totally counterproductive to the formation of stable families. I finally had to say in my own mind "screw all that stuff, I have to do what I think is right".

Another misconception is that you have to be rich or well off to be happily married. Sure, it helps, especially for materialistic individuals. But it sure isn't totally true as BillyGoatGruff pointed out. He had the sense that I lacked and as a result, he has gotten to have many more happy years devoted to a wife and family than I have.

My wife sometimes says "If we could have just met 10 years earlier." Personally, I don't think it would have done any good. I would have foolishly wrote her off in pursuit of something "better".

Tyrone,
I respect your humility. Sure you may have bumbled along a bit, as we all do, but in the end, results matter. I'm glad things are working out for you. I wish you and your wife many more happy years together.

i imagine we're all speaking mostly of white folks here although i don't know that for certain.

it is likely educated black women have a far more difficult time finding a suitable black male as a mate equal to or greater than her educational attainments.

i don't really know why as it is probably something in the cultural norms in which we find ourselves.

and the economy is always correlated with marriages, births, debt, new home and furniture sales, etc. probably a divorce correlation to, but i don't know that for certain.

That is sad to hear, AS. Even my younger friends have been quite successful, but their marriages have been those of equals, not equation-conscious ladder climbing on either side. I am not talking about income or assets here. A lot of these guys are real deal alpha male types, and some of them, when presented with the opportunity, have not minded moving to to other cities to support their wives' careers or other goals. As for me, I have been lucky. My wife is a kick-ass woman who flipped in and out of the labor market depending on our mutual goals. She put me through two years of graduate school. I then carried the water so she could become a multi-sport athlete, then a mom. Then she flipped back into the labor force for some play money. Then she went to work full time and convinced me to quit my full-time job 5 years ago. (I went part time for play money.)

I can also tell you that one of my longest-term best friends is a woman. She had to deal with men who meet the same description of the women you are describing now.

This is one of the best threads ever. It doesn't leave me too optimistic, but before the treatment plan, first comes the diagnosis. My grandkids have benefitted immensely from this thread, if I live to pass it on.

Every parent should require this thread as reading as soon as their kids sprout pubic hair. Then, there should be monthly exams that have to be passed to get the car keys.

One of the things I learned in time is that kids are not fully raised when they leave home. Much of what will happen to them will be influenced by who they associate with during those first few years. If they are around a bunch of screw-offs that will seem normal to them. If they are around hard working, high goal people, that too will rub off. Our kids had academic potential, so we sent them to a school that supported our values WHERE they were most likely to find a spouse with comparable values. I can report it worked out that way for all of them. If you have any influence over their life after they leave home choose wisely how you exert it. Not all roads lead to the same outcome.

Again, thanks and Godspeed.

Cheyenne, you bring up several good points. In general states like Wyoming, South Dakota, and Nebraska are faring better with the divorce statistics then the bigger cities. In general, they have a flatter income structure so few ladders for either side to attempt to climb, and this leads to a greater proportion of marriages between equals willing to work together for a better future. Additionally, if you live in a small town, it's much harder to dial the the dating app and have 100 new matches that are not all your neighbors and cousins, which again keeps some of the behaviors we're discussing tamped down.

Like you, my wife and I are in counter cyclical businesses. At different time we've swapped back and forth between who's working or going to school. Having that type of flexibility is good in an every changing world.

Your also right that some people still get it. One of my former co-workers, a finance type, is married to a engineer. She's pretty smart, catapulted herself to a VP position at a local S&P 500 company. Recently, he followed her to Brazil, where she's now the 3rd highest executive it the region, and he plays Mr. Mom and golfs all day since his Visa status prevents him from working. For them, it's working fine, but once again, they are a couple of well grounded small town southern kids with the humility and gratitude to appreciate their success. Unfortunately, those trait seem less common now.

#1: The family court system.

#2: Unlimited porn at no cost.

It is in terms of learned behavior.

When the government puts their dick beaters all over anything, it will go to schit.

The institution of marriage is no exception.

Most of us become our parents, ain’t gonna bother to look it up but I’d expect most of those from broken marriages are likewise less likely to be in a stable marriage themselves.

For the lowest extreme of learned dis-function, look at our self-perpetuating ghettos and ‘hoods.

Ain’t all kids that do this, I always estimated maybe 90-95%

20 year old men have seen two generations of men getting fugked.

20 year old women have seen that they can legally steal other people's earnings.

There are multipliers to the problem but this is the root issue.

Devastatingly real problems, but hardly rendering the OP's essay idiotic. Some folks still follow a traditional approach and dodge these bullets; more could.

If the article isn't going to mention the real source of the problem, it's idiotic.

It did. The source of the problem is in people's hearts and minds, not some pictures or laws. I don't blame the gun for violence either.

As far as pre-nups go, I think they most certainly have their place, for example, in case of a second marriage to direct assets after death to children from the previous marriage, or in case of pretty extreme differences in wealth.

That said, I think the root cause of the decay of modern marriage is that people look at it so transactionally, and adding a pre-nup would only exacerbate that. Marriage is not just living together, it's living your life together. Were we to instill that skill into the next generation, things would get better. Unfortunately, both men and women are conditioned to see if they can do better, elsewhere, on a transactional basis, not on a relationship basis.

I give you, Ayanna Pressley - Conan Harris.

In some cases, marriages really are made in heaven.

I rest my case.

Do you mean........

Masturbation is bad!?

These days when someone says something like that, they usually get relegated to some Monty Python-type joke status.

But, judging by marriage & hookup stats and the descriptions of typical weekends I get from under-35s, I'd say you are correct.

We didn't have the money to start a family but we did it anyway. There were some real lean years but it was all worth it. To many don't want to take the chance. Bristoe narrowed it down, greatly.

kwg

I think you are wrong. There would be no need for the family court system if everyone who got married, stayed married. The family court system, in other words, is the result of the "Hookup Culture", not the cause.

As to #2, technology has indeed made it available at no cost, but the problem began long before the technology existed.

Both of the factors you cite are making matters worse, but they are not causes; rather, they are effects. I think humanity got on the slippery slope it is on now back in the '60s during the hippie era of "free love." There is no such thing. If it's free, it's not love and if it's love, it's not free.

The no-fault divorce has been a bad thing overall, and the family court system giving women a strong financial incentive to divorce has been a bad thing overall as well.

Yes, commitment. And choosing a wife is one of life's most crucial decisions.

Well said, AS. And a favorable outcome in marriage takes more than wisdom and commitment. Luck has much to do with it too. I'm very lucky in my marriage. We have been married since August of 1984.

You should date a woman two years before marrying her. In that period, some ho comes along and shows you the grass is greener on the other side. 😂

^^^Part of the problem.^^^

I know men in their 40's and in their 20's that don't want to get married or have a long term relationship.

It's not due to being morally bankrupt. It's due to the family court system in the United States.

Give away half your stuff.....and half your future stuff?


Sign me up!

Half?

In some states that'd be getting off easy.

Probably a quarter of people married today.....shouldn't be.

Yes, Crow hunter. There are a huge number of people completely damaged and broken by the hook-up culture. But I believe healing is possible. For anyone and everyone.

I did it the non traditional way I guess. Didnt get married til 42. Never wanted kids, so it took awhile to find a decent woman who shared my values and goals. Seems like all the women I dated all wanted kids. Found my wife and we both knew it was meant to be. If I had found her at 22 I would have married her then.

What you say about the family court system and the effects it is having on men wanting to get married is undoubtedly true, but it didn't simply appear out of whole cloth in order to undermine the institution of marriage. It is simply the outgrowth of the philosophy that humans are just another form of animal. This leads to a predator-prey relationship among people and a "screw everything in sight but don't get married" mentality.

I find it sorta funny that a bunch of older men would have an opinion on the younger generation's sexual and marriage habits when they all brag endlessly about the sexual exploits of their past....and fall over each other to high five the 14 year old being screwed by the civics teacher.

Today's young people exist in the appropriate time.

Whats next? A home ownership thread?

Things change.

Maybe its a good trend. Fewer marriages equal fewer divorces.


Some jackleg working for the Catholics named O'Malley gonna tell me and mine whats up?


Uhh....no.

You say egg; I say chicken. ;-{>8

Who in their right mind would start a family in the last 10 years in America?

Everything is against a man wanting to raise a family the way nature intended.

And yeah it starts with the courts.

Wanting to fugk a lot is not unique to today's generation.

Their views on marriage is.

Why didn't you want kids?

The majority of those passing judgement think the family court systems are perfectly fine.

This is a truth that has been buried by the "women's movement."

I've always said that WWII brought this on. Women built the planes and the guns for the war effort, and it seems many got the idea that they should stay in the workforce so they could accumulate more stuff. From there everything cascaded. Divorce became the norm rather than the exception, then cohabitation, then came the sugar daddy and casual hookups. We see where it leads us: right here where we are now.



What has brought America to its knees is a moral and spiritual crisis.

That is absolute nonsense.

Men in this country love to call other men deadbeats because a woman or a judge said so.

"Deadbeat dads."

LOL

Ranks right up there with MADD and the War on Drugs.

OT,

Laws create economic incentives that change behaviors. Let's use your example. Sure guns do not cause crime, but bad laws the prohibit gun ownership and self defense do cause higher crime rates. When criminals know they can take you stuff and there's nothing you can legally do about it, it happens more often. Same with Family court laws.

80% of divorces are filed by women. In general, it's not men that are leaving marriage, it's women. Why? A very large factor in all this is how the family court systems made it easy for them to take another persons future earnings and possessions.

If marriage was easier to enter and painless to get out of.....there would be more successful marriages.

And this is becoming more common every year and will only get worse until it's addressed.

Yep. Clearly.

Since women are doing 80% of the leaving, who are the real "deadbeats" when it comes to relationships and marriage?

Yeah.

Women. F’kem.

Yeah.

Literally. And figuratively.

You understand.

Love me some va jay jay

You believe that people should be forced to stay married unless they meet criteria from a state-approved list of transgressions?

The state has much to say about it especially if they have to pick up parts of the welfare ticket that sometimes follows.

I believe that when someone signs a legally binding contract, that they should be held to it. And if ‘they’ want to break that legally binding contract and get out of it, especially just because they want to, that ‘they’ should be the one’s to foot the bill for ‘all’ of doing so.

If you loaned someone 20,000 dollars and you both signed a legally binding contract whereby ‘they’ were obligated to pay you back, I think they should be held to it, and I don’t think ‘they’ should be able to get out of it just because they wanted to...and be given a huge financial incentive for doing so...and have ‘you’ not only take the loss...but also have ‘you’ foot the bill for ‘all’ of it.

Only been married 20 years this May. You are correct, in that the 6' mark is the only one I met, and that only barely.

I'm not absolving the modern man of any culpability, but (and there may be built in bias?) I believe we're for the most part, the same we always were. Biologically women are too, but societally it is the fairer sex who have changed in the last couple generations. Some good, but far and away for the bad. Used to be being a slut, or a gold digger carried a certain amount of shame. That is gone now. Utterly. Some would argue that's for the better. I'm not one of them.

To be fair though, in decades past, how many women stuck around an [bleep] husband who smacked her around and cheated on her at the drop of a hat? The stigma of being an unwed mother, or whore kept them at home in a situation that sucked. Now there is far less compunction to even try and stick around to work out a rough patch. No incentive to have a successful happy marriage. Almost nobody even actually raises their own kids anymore.

Sorry but that’s a dumb analogy

I've heard some chilling child support stories that young guys are getting saddled with from the leftist infested (and black female judges infested) court systems here. And they are crippling. Baby Mamma just goes out and gets a new boyfriend to put a check in the man box and she's off and running to Talbot's. The kid doesn't know any difference and typically grows up with multiple "Daddy"-bots.

My younger brother has told me some horror stories of younger guys who work with him that have good jobs getting saddled with ridiculous child support to where they don't have enough left to take care of themselves. Where these judges and courts come up with these numbers, I have no idea.

I didn't have sense so much as got lucky. I fully intended to get married and have a family, but didn't intend on doing it at 21. I did have a set of criteria, and prayed deeply that I didn't create a life by accident with the wrong woman before that. I'm not a very religious man, but one of the things I absolutely credit the Creator with is bringing my wife and I together. That she's still here is another miracle lol.

Sometimes I wonder if I'd held off and married later what difference it would've made, I missed out on some things for sure, but it's an exercise in mental masturbation that I've found to be waste of my time. Like planning what I'm going to do with the money I'm never going to win from the lotto.

I really don't see that 80% figure as proof of anything without more context. Are there any studies on that? I also think that there is a lower chance of women getting future earnings or a disproportionate share of property than in the past, when the stay-at-home wife/mom got to continue staying at home at ex's expense. This is especially true with dual-income and short "starter" marriages. I also have seen men who don't file for a divorce for reasons that have nothing to do with affinity for their spouses. I remember one guy who showed me some pictures of his girlfriend's boobs. He always was talking about how much he disliked his wife. When I asked him why he didn't get a divorce, he said something to the effect of: "I can't do that because my girlfriend would want me to marry her."

I agree that family court is fugked. Absolutely. But to not get married, because you plan on splitting the sheets later and getting taken to the cleaners doesn't make sense to me either.

Don't want to have a kid with that chick? Don't fugk her, or for christ sakes use one of the million options out there for birth control. Crying foul because you're expected to pay for the upbringing, then you ought not extoll any perceived virtues of bygone eras about how modern men are puzzies.

Yes before you liberated men flame me, I agree the amounts being levied in judgements against the fathers are criminal.

Feminism has destroyed modern females

Uh - that might be a truth - or - at least a cogent point. But, in a thread this thoughtful, acceptance of your premise is probably going to call for considerable explanation and example.

Yes it has. It's also turning men into wusses.

Today's woman is a "strong, independent woman!" who "doesn't need a man!" Most men, even today, don't want that. Men need to be needed, like it or not. If we're not needed, what the hell are we doing there anyway? Men are not "intimidated" by these "strong, independent women", they just don't want to put up with that schidt. It's not what they want.

So, you end up with generations of men and women that get together to screw, but, since they can't stand each other, that's about it.

I had not ever thought about that concept, but you stir a bit of interest. Given some bad circumstances, judgments and outcomes from the current setup - noted in this tread - maybe such criteria for granting of divorce would be better than what we are doing now. Can you give a short list for consideration?

Yup. And by extension their children.

For example, look at how many "women" don't take their husband's surnames.

AKA, the Fuggin you get for the Fuggin you got.

RiverRider,
You and There_Ya_Go hit on some important points regarding the genesis and evolution of our current situation, and impacts of the innovations of the times both of you mentioned around WWII, post war, and the 1960's.

There's this myth that throughout history women have never worked. It's not true, woman have always worked. That work was in the home and looked like the work performed by my Grandmother. Back then, cooking and cleaning looked much different. Cooking over a wood stove takes a lot more effort than using a microwave oven, so does using a tub an washboard and clothes line vs. using a modern washer and dryer.

As you mentioned, during WWII, many wives brought in a second income while the men were busy fighting the war. What's interesting is how women spent their extra money. It was largely on washers, dryers, refrigerators, on the modern convinces that reduced the amount of labor associated with house keeping. After the war, the war industry went idle, and the huge American industrial juggernaut turned to the production of household good, and largely to the manufacturer of durable household items.

The war resulted in the near destruction of the industrial production of every country except the U.S. in 1945, 80% we owned 80% of the worlds industrial capacity. They laws of supply and demand ruled, and America entered a Golden Age where the hard working man could support his family with relative ease, and continue the trend of home automation, with vacuum cleaners and dishwashers becoming more common, and continuing the trend of the stay at home mom with more time on her hands than ages past. This presents it's own problems, it's been said, "Idle hands are the devil’s workshop", an idle people feel less fulfilled with their lives. We need to struggle and feel that we are making progress to feel fulfilled. Husbands and industry did such a good job of eliminating the daily struggles of their wives, the wives were no longer fulfilled, and needed something more.

As these trends played out, along comes the pill, effectively divorcing sex from procreation. This occurred during an economic boom, and the party was on. Disposable incomes continued to rise. The pill allowed women to delay motherhood and still party at a time when they were seeking new avenues of personal fulfillment, and thus, the modern post secondary Educational Industrial Complex was born. Women wanted to go to school, but there was a problem. Historically people paid for their education up from. Loans were available, but there were private loans, and if the student didn't repay the loan, the loan company took the loss. Consequently loans were available for top students in areas like law, engineering and other high paying fields that provided a good ROI (return on investment), for the student and a high likely hood they would pay it back. These high paying career fields were then, and still are today dominated by men due to the difference in tastes and preference between men and women, so enter the U.S. Government.

Enter Government grants, and student loans. Women go off to university and get educated. We get new degree fields containing the word "studies". By and large, from an economic stand point, any degree containing the word "studies" is worthless. The only exceptions I see are what I categorize as "enemy studies", i.e. Russian Studies, Chinese Studies, Persian studies, Korean Studies, in other words, those that help us better understand our adversaries so we can more efficiently kill them. The "studies" degree's are female dominated, and of minimal economic value. As an example, at my former university the average salaries for a professor with an PHD in Economics was $125,000 per year. For Women's Studies it was $30,000. that's right, in the market place it's holds the same economic that progressives place on the bare minimum of skill, their proposed national minimum wage.

Here's why this is a problem. Back in the day, we had well established sorting process for the dating and marriage process. The human mind can effectively sort about 250 individuals into a social hierarchy. This works well for small farming communities in places such as South Dakota and Nebraska. In small, static communities, everyone know all their option. They boys know which girls are hot, which are not, and the girls know which families have resources, and which do not. Everyone knows where they fit into this hierarchy, and who are their dating prospects. On a scale of 1-10, if you are average, you know you are average, and that you have no shot at the 9's and 10's. The population is small enough you can see the full distribution, and if you step out of your lane, you'll be quickly put back into it. Additionally, these communities tend to have a very flat income distribution, (or in economic terms a low GINI coefficient). As a result there's little opportunity for women to dump their current husband in search of someone better. However with the introduction of mass post secondary education and increased urbanization, and the false perceptions created by social media and dating apps, these signaling systems have broken down and way too many women are now delusional about where they rank in the dating hierarchy.

As I mentioned in previous posts, women are hypergamous. The vast majority will only marry men of equal or higher social status and income. Generally, they tie their perceived social status to both their level of educational attainment and income. As a result we a population of women with PHD's in fields of minimal value, thinking they deserve a PHD husband. Of course men tend to get their education in area's the lead to greater income, which provides them with more options in the market off resource seeking women.

So what happens when Miss PHD is "average at best", or right down butt ugly? In general, men who make real job PHD money are not interested in unattractive women regardless of their educational attainment. The two things men tend to value in women the most are beauty, and ability to cooperate with a man. As a result, Miss Average at best PHD won't date any of the men who would have her, and the men she wants all have better options. Additionally, the Industrial Educations Complex pushes this narrative that all problems are the fault of men, especially those with jobs who built our society. It's typical for this to result in a woman who see's herself as high social status, but with no real history of cooperating with men. She ends up as a average looking woman, with a worthless degree, indoctrinated to think men are the problem, with little of no history of long term relationships, because she's too focused on school and work, and so she has no idea how to properly cooperate with men. This all comes to a crescendo as she hit's 30, aka "the wall" when the pool of suitor greatly diminishes and she's looking for Mr. 100K PHD who's going to give her babies in the next two years.

The end result is that any man she's hunting will take one look at this mess, compare it to his options, and opt for the younger, hotter, less educated, less debt ridden, less indoctrinated, lower mileage girl who hasn't lost her ability to pair bond due to an excessive body count, and demonstrates now narcistic tendencies.

Time dictates I need this post here, but one subject I didn't cover is the impacts in the increase of Narcisistic Personality Disorder and deteriorating female mental health in general impacts the marriageability of the single women. Today, around 25% of women have been diagnosed with a significant mental disorder, schizophrenia, anxiety, depression, bi-polar etc. Keep in mind, this is just the number that 's been diagnosed. The real numbers probably much higher...

So yea, it's a minefield out there. Probe carefully.

Good post sniper and spot on. Funny to listen to the campfire fudds who have been married to the same woman for 40 yrs yet they think they know women.... the modern woman is a different beast and your post points out several very real reasons why.

I agree with those who think this has been and interesting and potentially useful thread. The article is thought-provoking, even if some think it does not address the "real problem". Unless I missed it through carelessness, deflave did not respond to explain "what the real problem is".Bristoe made some good points for thought about what has become - so have some others.

Yes, the issue of lasting and rewarding marriage has become complex for many folks - for many behavioral reasons, and the way we have run our society has made the problem even more complex. Yes, no doubt, some of us got lucky with our marriages and, beyond that, others succeeded through commitment and hard/unselfish work.

This may sound daft or old-fashioned (not applicable?) but maybe the most effective path for the younger set of folks today would be to keep the mating process basic and very rigorous. Emphasize some simple but huge over arching values and be tough - very tough - in making decisions about those with whom you will be close. Most successful persons know how to differentiate between work and play - between improvement and self-gratification.

The process of choosing friends who will be valuable and help bring out the best in you and your life should be taught by all parents. For guys, simple factors applied to choosing a great woman should also be so taught. I know that such teaching can work for girls.

If that is taught well - and young folks do it well - most of the atrocities associated with failed marriages -- individual and societal - will apply elsewhere.

"Is this the line to lose half my s.hit?! AWESOME!"

Not really. It's the fuggin you get because of the fugked up court system.

Spot on. Currently watching a coworker get eaten alive in court because his wife suddenly decided she never lived up to her potential and he was the reason. Wants to go back to school and wants him to pay for it. She was a 40 year old waitress without a pot to piss in when he met her. He threw two kids into her and now she walks away with his kids, entire retirement, and house.

The system is setup against men and I don't blame them for avoiding marriage.

At some point a guy has to start to think a hitman is cheaper.

^^^^^^This^^^^^^

Can't lose - if it works, problem solved.

If it doesn't work, 3 hots and a cot taken care of for the foreseeable future and no worky job bullshi.t all for the benefit of some succubus

Jeebus...did you read the whole thing?

Very interesting post, indeed.

That was a great post, AS, and I will defer to your expertise concerning the "modern age." What I see from your post, though, is that men want hot chicks who defer to them and woman want to climb the social ladder. Both are totally superficial, so it is no wonder that relationships are a minefield and prone to failure.

Back in the day, grounds were stuff like adultery, conviction of a felony with a prison sentence, habitual intemperance, attempting to take the life of the other (I guess a backhand across the face was ok) or living separate and apart for 6 months or a year. It wasn't good.

Yep.

You missed it.

Very good breakdown.

Never was interested in raising children.

Its not for everybody

I don't usually read post before I respond to them .... but this time I did..

Sniper's a sharp fellow and hearing him out is never a bad idea.

That's basically what I ended up doing. I decided what my most important values were and took girls out on dates that involved those things. Don't like it? Been nice knowing you! And I'd never talk to them again.

But why didn't you want to raise children?

Sometimes.

But he's also a COVTARD.

I couldn't get through it.


I tried too.

Maybe - maybe not - but not due to carelessness.

I think one of the biggest problems is that many men, despite the intense social programming to the contrary, still want a woman just like mom and grandmom and women of the past. An old fashioned, feminine (NOT feminist) woman. And not many of those exist anymore. Men become frustrated and go their own way, and the "strong, independent women" live empty lives because they can't find anyone to stay with them because they just "want" one, and "don't need a man".

After all these years, I finally found a good woman. The rest of you are on your own.

I dislike much,and maybe most, of what I see and hear in general about family court actions and divorce judgments. Often bad for kids and parents as well, and nonsensical. Also have seen the gamut of feminist ideology played out for the past 60 years and feel that was never fundamentally designed to elevate and/or emancipate women.

The above factors certainly have been - and are - detrimental. However, all too often we hear railing and wailing about those as the instruments of ruination - from those who seem to assume the role of victim. Not all, but many. In one way or another, we all seem to pay for our weak decisions. Some people are much more influenced by incentives than by values

Aside from those of us who got the benefit of dumb luck, the creation and sustenance of an excellent marriage will demand hard work and some sacrifice. . Girls raised lovingly and with proper values generally do not go down the sorry paths discussed in this thread.

Even on an unrelated thread you still have to be a denigrating political cunt.

Somewhere between this...



...and this, lays the answer.




I am old and married so don't really give a toss.

At what level have you dealt with the family court system in the United States?

I don’t believe men have changed much, women as a whole however have always been famously suggestible.

No accident that it was Eve who got talked into thinking that biting the apple was the thing to do.

Congrats on finding a good woman.

TV and the internet poison many into believing they can do whatever they want and if it goes badly, they were just a victim.

Women moreso than men.

Just because I don't believe it's not a literal truth, doesn't mean it's not a literary truth.

Alex,

What is a whole number less than one?

Typical too that Adam let a woman lead him astray against his own better judgement, tho I dunno if they were getting it on before the apple.

A good friend caught his wife cheating on him. They went through counseling and he moved past it. He caught her cheating again about a year later with his best friend. That was enough. He filed for divorce after 17 years of marriage. He now pays child support and she also gets half his pension when he retires. People should be able to leave a bad marriage, but the cause of the break up should be taken into account when the court decides on financial matters. In my opinion, his wife gave up her right to share in his retirement income when she decided to become a whore.

Thanks for the mention, AS. Somewhat surprising, given our differing views on religion in general and Christianity in particular. One of the many things that reinforces my faith in God is how poorly the world works when his precepts are ignored. You disagree with that conclusion, I know, but I don't see any of our societal problems getting better unless and until belief in God is widely restored. When a society sees no consequence (in the here or the hereafter) to evil or sinful behavior, such behavior only increases. The belief system you espouse works well for solving technical problems, but when it comes to human relations much more is needed.

When the AntelopeSniper post the Fubar listens......

Local and state - at what level have you dealt??

TYG,

You say God created us perfect and we fell from grace in the Garden of Eden, I say an imperfect process of evolutionary biology and a modern world with conditions very different from those experienced through the vast majority of our evolutionary past. Regardless, we're both interested in examining the challenges facing our country, can agree on what some of them are, and their implications for people within our sphere's of influence. Hopefully we can distill this into shareable information and perhaps even wisdom so we can make better decisions.

Although I do not accept the Christian version of the God proposition as true (or any other's) that does not mean there's no wisdom in the Bible, nor that it does not teach anything of useful. It see it as one of several early attempt to address the perpetual challenges we as humans face. In the intervening 2500 years we've learned much, and conditional have changed, so as an early examination of these problems it 's imperfect, and sometimes outdated. As a non-believer who's not locked into a single source for my solitons, I can examine the Biblical understanding of these problem along with their proposed cause and solutions, and decide to what degree they are applicable or not.

You referenced my belief system. My beliefs are far from monolithic and typically diverse from those of post-modern left. One of the area's where you and I agree is on the power of incentives. Where we seem to disagree is the nature of the incentives we should utilize in our efforts to mitigate the problems at hand. Belief in god(s) and hell(s) is on the decline, so I don't see efforts in this area becoming a more effective tool for fixing the challenges discussed in this thread in the future. Instead I believe we should focus on the incentives in the here and now especially those that are demonstrable, measurable, actionable, and have real opportunity to mitigate these problems without creating an equal or greater level of negative unintended consequences. It's for this reason many here point to the bad incentives created by the current family courts system, how it contributes to 80% of divorces being filed by women, and the impacts these divorces have upon the men. If we change this incentive structure, I suspect the marriage and divorce rates will change as well.

BW,
The way I interoperate the story of the fall in Genesis, no Adam and Eve were not getting it on before the incident at the tree. There much allegory in the story. The serpent that lead Eve into temptation was Adam's one eyed trouser snake, and the apple (technically the Bible just says it was fruit and doesn't specify) is an allegory for the fruit of her loins. It our society it's the women the control access to sex, and Eve's gift to Adam of sex carried with it great consequences. After eve shared herself with Adam, he got kicked out of his fathers house (The Garden of Eden, the perfect paradise made for his children) and go till the land. Today we call that getting a job.

So, yes, it's no accident that it was the woman who offered up herself to the man and after he accepted, his whole world changed and he had to get to job in order to feed Eve and all the kids they had together.

Christianity teaches Women should honor (respect) their husbands. The King James Version was translated obey, but the original Greek means respect. Men are to love their wives as themselves. In the past some men took the translation "obey" literally. This caused problems in the modern world.

In 1960, most dating didn't begin until age 16, when kids could drive. Most kids date around for 2 years before having sex. So statistics showed than 90% of kids did not have sex until after they were 18. Girls got married an average age of 19. Boys 21. Boys got their skills, trade, or college by 21. They were able to get and maintain a good paying job, thus were ready to marry. Girls usually got married out of high school at about 19. Divorce in 1960 was only about 20-30%, and usually early on. Most women didn't work but were stay at home moms. No need for daycare. Kids had supervision after school. Fathers provided the income and security for the family. Families worked together for common goals, homes, cars, vacations, etc. In 1960 50% of Americans attended church at least twice a week. Christian values were adhered to in public because of this. This kept crime down, and people knew and respected others more. Yes, there was adultry and divorce, but it was usually among the rich and upper class more so. Men with money, and women too, had too much time on their hands.

In 1900 90% of people still lived on farms or small towns. Fathers and mothers were at home more or had a small shop or store that kids could walk to if they needed their fathers. Divorce was very low. Families worked together.

Today, with the turning away from Christian values and principles, people are more angry, bitter, sex is easy and free, no commitment, no respect, murder and rape have increased, no loyalty to their job, their spouse or girlfriend/boyfriend. Also, the Bible says the sin of Sodom was idleness of time and fullness of bread. Too much idle time lead to the mess we have today, from free sex and adultry to the LBGTQ crap. No respect for human live lead to abortion. Unless we bring our missionary's home and have a massive revival in America, we are going the way of socialism and 3rd world crapholes. There is now no respect for the American system. Freedom of SPEACH, not cancel culture. Right to keep and bear arms, not disarm everyone in hopes crime will go down, it won't, they will just use knives and baseball bats. I hope we have revival. Athiests do not have to participate, but at least admit America under Christian influence if far better than socialism.

You’re divorced?

Are you rational and paying attention? At what level have you dealt?

Why am I not surprised that you didn't answer the question?

Makes me realize how damn lucky I’ve been. My wife & I both from broken homes.

We’re still married & will be until death do us part. But we’re still married because of her, not because of me, much to my shame.

You should not be surprised for two reasons - 1. he chose not to answer the question first asked of him - 2. he already knows the answer to his inquiry. I would have thought you would have been smart enough to figure that out. Negative intent tends to reveal itself.