It was in a larger box as the guy was moving to another house. Box was on kitchen counter, and when his son picked up the box, the detonation occurred.
His son wasn't hurt, but scared the hell out of both of them.
Here's the photos the law firm sent me for my opinion.
Box. You can see the tears in the box from detonation.
It was in a larger box as the guy was moving to another house. Box was on kitchen counter, and when his son picked up the box, the detonation occurred.
His son wasn't hurt, but scared the hell out of both of them.
Here's the photos the law firm sent me for my opinion.
Box. You can see the tears in the box from detonation.
What say you?
What caused this?
If no one was hurt, why's there a law firm involved?
I'd like to see the other rounds in the box. That primer looks to have been pressed, as in reloaded. I've seen that type of mark when primers are hard to seat.
I suggest that something smacked thar primer. IF it really went down the way the plaintiff is saying, then there must have been something in that box of ammo that shouldn't have been there. A ball of #6 shot, possibly? Maybe they're not being straight about it...maybe the kid was actually "setting it down" (and not so gently) rather than picking it up. Whatever the case may be, I think it went off because the primer was struck.
Looks like they did when we would tape marbles to the back of a loaded round and throw it up in the air in a parking lot. Most didn't go off because they didn't land right but when they did the case looked like that and the bullet didn't go very far. Ammo doesn't get much speed without chamber support and a bit of barrel.
I'd like to see the other rounds in the box. That primer looks to have been pressed, as in reloaded. I've seen that type of mark when primers are hard to seat.
I thinking something was pressed on top of it when the box was picked up.
That's the problem nowadays. We MUST have an answer as to WHY. Do you think our grandads knew "why" the house burned down or the main bearing on the Nash went out at 10,000 miles? Sometimes it just does. I'm the worst, I want to know why why why. I'd be happier if I shrugged it off and moved on. We all would. And lawyers would be unemployed.
Some things in life don't have answers. I suggest it is our weakness to have to have an answer to every why question.
That's the problem nowadays. We MUST have an answer as to WHY. Do you think our grandads knew "why" the house burned down or the main bearing on the Nash went out at 10,000 miles? Sometimes it just does. I'm the worst, I want to know why why why. I'd be happier if I shrugged it off and moved on. We all would. And lawyers would be unemployed.
Some things in life don't have answers. I suggest it is our weakness to have to have an answer to every why question.
Well, may not know the minute details as to why..
But when a law firm I do some consulting work for asks me for my opinion, I'll give him my best shot as to HOW...
Yea, loaded rounds in a factory box should not go BANG by themselves. Does look like the primer got hit, or perhaps a secondary incident. Picture is not to clear however.
The boxes of S&B ammo are smaller than some other brands because the ammo is packed in there tighter together. At least it didn't cause a chain reaction. I like the smaller boxes because they take up less room.
Okay, just for a different perspective- there is a chance these were stored improperly and the powder destabilized into base components. Once that happens, ignition is a likely result of any movement . Might want to (Carefully) check a few more of the rounds in that box to see if something like that has happened to any more of them....
The primer has a distinct dent in it. Not a firing pin dent, but a dent, nonetheless.
I can't offer an opinion as to how the dent occurred. But am pretty certain the detonation happened when the primer was dented.
I doubt seriously it was S&B's fault. It traveled many, many miles getting to where it was today, and "just picking up the box" didn't cause it.
If I had to speculate, the ammo box was probably not properly handled, packed, and the entire larger box was probably slammed down on the counter, or dropped from the counter onto the hard floor beneath.
Lawyers get lied to sometimes. Not saying that's 100% sure what happened here. But something dented that primer. Ammo doesn't just detonate like that.
Okay, just for a different perspective- there is a chance these were stored improperly and the powder destabilized into base components. Once that happens, ignition is a likely result of any movement . Might want to (Carefully) check a few more of the rounds in that box to see if something like that has happened to any more of them....
Bob
You obviously have not seen the half a box of shells that rides around in various places in my pickup for the last 10 years. In temps reaching pretty high up there in summer.
They get jostled around pretty good, and still fire fine, but don't blow up at the slightest movement...
Lotsa folks I've known have had a similar box of shells riding the rough ridges in their pickup.
The primer has a distinct dent in it. Not a firing pin dent, but a dent, nonetheless.
I can't offer an opinion as to how the dent occurred. But am pretty certain the detonation happened when the primer was dented.
I doubt seriously it was S&B's fault. It traveled many, many miles getting to where it was today, and "just picking up the box" didn't cause it.
If I had to speculate, the ammo box was probably not properly handled, packed, and the entire larger box was probably slammed down on the counter, or dropped from the counter onto the hard floor beneath.
Lawyers get lied to sometimes. Not saying that's 100% sure what happened here. But something dented that primer. Ammo doesn't just detonate like that.
But when a law firm I do some consulting work for asks me for my opinion, I'll give him my best shot as to HOW...
I originally posted, before I saw what your "opinion" was to the law firm. I think you're response was spot on.
However, your post does point out something we as gun owners all need to be looking out for with any upcoming gun control legislation. Any legislation that tries to repeal the PLCAA (Protection of Legal Commerce in Arms Act) must be voted down.
Nobody gets hurt, but a law firm wants an answer so they can try to make money from it anyway?
If Biden ever gets the PLCAA repealed, they'll use an endless string of lawsuits like this to bankrupt the industry or drive our costs through the roof, essentially killing the sporting aspects of it.
I'm all for keeping defective products safe, but I'm not sure this fits that category, or is the intent of the law firm.
Maybe I just have a really low opinion of lawyers.
That primer would have had a cardboard box between it and what ever hit the primer and so would the nose of the bullet. That would be pretty good protection for an accidental blow. Likely why ammo is shipped in boxes and not loose.
Looks like the bullet was sitting on something rough and hard, that dented it and gave the round the support that it needed for a strike on the primer, to set it off. I believe a different story is involved from the one that was told rockinbbar. Just an opinion of someone that has picked up a lot of boxes of ammo over the last 57 years of shooting.
Any body else ever had a round go off when they picked up a box of ammo?
But when a law firm I do some consulting work for asks me for my opinion, I'll give him my best shot as to HOW...
I'm not knocking you personally, I'm also a consultant and I understand some customers have warts. However, nobody gets hurt, but a law firm wants an answer so they can try to make money from it anyway?
If Biden ever gets the PLCAA (Protection of Legal Commerce in Arms Act), they'll use an endless string of lawsuits like this to bankrupt the industry.
I'm all for keeping defective products safe, but I'm not sure this fits that category, or is the intent of the law firm.
Maybe I just have a really low opinion of lawyers.
Perhaps the law firm was seeking a professional opinion so they could tell the client they did not feel they had a case?
Law firms investigate every aspect of everything. Even if it concludes the client is at fault. (At least the decent ones do.)
Which is exactly what happened.
Lawyer told the client if he wanted, to contact S&B himself and maybe they'd send him a new box of ammo.
For one thing, where;s the BOX being moved? Was it full of ONLY ammo boxes or packed cattywampus, with "other" items inside?
Box doesn't look in the greatest shape, either. Been handled a lot, and not well.
That's also a terrible picture of the primer, but that thing looks like it fired, tried to push itself out, and a large round thing was pushing back, therefore the dimple or concavity. Clearly, there was ANOTHER box of ammo underneath, in the corner, with the round below lined up just right.
I'd bet the company the kid slipped, the corner hit, and BANG.
Operator error to me. That these geniuses actually have contacted a lawyer just lowers the IQ assessment. If your kid drops the big box of ammo you overloaded on the granite countertop, what the heck would you EXPECT to happen?
But when a law firm I do some consulting work for asks me for my opinion, I'll give him my best shot as to HOW...
I'm not knocking you personally, I'm also a consultant and I understand some customers have warts. However, nobody gets hurt, but a law firm wants an answer so they can try to make money from it anyway?
If Biden ever gets the PLCAA (Protection of Legal Commerce in Arms Act), they'll use an endless string of lawsuits like this to bankrupt the industry.
I'm all for keeping defective products safe, but I'm not sure this fits that category, or is the intent of the law firm.
Maybe I just have a really low opinion of lawyers.
Perhaps the law firm was seeking a professional opinion so they could tell the client they did not feel they had a case?
Law firms investigate every aspect of everything. Even if it concludes the client is at fault. (At least the decent ones do.)
Which is exactly what happened.
Lawyer told the client if he wanted, to contact S&B himself and maybe they'd send him a new box of ammo.
You might have repaired some of my opinions of lawyers.
The primer looks like it has been ripped inward. If that is the case, I would first suspect defective primer, in example, thin metal. Finger pressure upsetting the mix.
Knew a gun shop owner who would slam a box of ammo down on the counter for the hellovit. He also put old, discoloured ammo into brass vibrator to clean them up to sell. None of them ever went off.
Something struck that primer, for sure. I”m going with a piece of plastic debris in the box.
I've seen a case and bullet, after the .45 ACP round rolled off a dresser and fell to the carpet tack strip below...loud pop and split brass case, flash burn spot on the wall and back of the dresser, size of a tangerine, and the bullet left a short line on the painted wall above the singed spot. case looked very similar, primer showed a sharp strike, not the usual dent.
I've been hand loading for 40 years, and I load for over 35 cartridges (at last count). Only twice have I ever had a primer go off (I'm talking tens of thousands of rounds). I've crushed them sideways, upside down, every which way over the years. That anvil has to be "smacked" just right. As others have said, SOMETHING hit that primer. Did the kid drop something on top of the box of S&B ammo while it was on the counter? Oh, I also work at a busy gun shop and i'm throwing around cases of ammo, handling boxes of ammo, and sometimes loose ammo, all day long, NEVER had a round go off.
I’d expect to see a lot more soot/burn marks on the box. Judging by the nose of the bullet, it looks like the primer was definitely struck by something.
Dollar to a donut you could hold a round with pliers and hit it with a something enough times to make it go off.
Id like to see the top and bottom of the box, the side doesn’t tell anything except that the round wasn’t in it when it went off.
1 in a kabillion primer strike on something in the ammo box or something edge pointed enough in the packing box to come in contact with the ammo box and specifically on that primer. Add in possible weight on top of the box of ammo in the moving box Had ta have force from a drop to dent it enough to go off.
Did anyone beside the kid witness it???
He probably dropped the box???? Goofing off hitting on a primer with the butt end of a butterknife???
one in a kabillion thing maybe??? Schitloads of variables in the whole thing.
Wouldnt say it was S&B,s fault. Too much unknown when, where , or how the box mighta been dropped.
The lawyers are aware S&B are a Czechoslovakian company??? Good luck with litigation internationally for a mystery round going off. Probably even a blurb about proper storage on the package??? Or on Msds sheet available upon request.
The people ougta ask for 1k of ammo for compensation???? Or maybe a gift certificate for some thru the U.S. distributor??? LOL!!!
1 in a kabillion primer strike on something in the ammo box or something edge pointed enough in the packing box to come in contact with the ammo box and specifically on that primer. Add in possible weight on top of the box of ammo in the moving box Had ta have force from a drop to dent it enough to go off.
Did anyone beside the kid witness it???
He probably dropped the box???? Goofing off hitting on a primer with the butt end of a butterknife???
one in a kabillion thing maybe??? Schitloads of variables in the whole thing.
Wouldnt say it was S&B,s fault. Too much unknown when, where , or how the box mighta been dropped.
The lawyers are aware S&B are a Czechoslovakian company??? Good luck with litigation internationally for a mystery round going off. Probably even a blurb about proper storage on the package??? Or on Msds sheet available upon request.
The people ougta ask for 1k of ammo for compensation???? Or maybe a gift certificate for some thru the U.S. distributor??? LOL!!!
It was in a larger box as the guy was moving to another house. Box was on kitchen counter, and when his son picked up the box, the detonation occurred.
His son wasn't hurt, but scared the hell out of both of them.
Here's the photos the law firm sent me for my opinion.
Box. You can see the tears in the box from detonation.
What say you?
What caused this?
Hey I got 200 boxes of that stuff, something I should be concerned about
I suggest that something smacked thar primer. IF it really went down the way the plaintiff is saying, then there must have been something in that box of ammo that shouldn't have been there. A ball of #6 shot, possibly? Maybe they're not being straight about it...maybe the kid was actually "setting it down" (and not so gently) rather than picking it up. Whatever the case may be, I think it went off because the primer was struck.
Yep, somewhere somehow, and then call yer lowyer bud.
Any body else ever had a round go off when they picked up a box of ammo?
I worked for Scheels during college. I ran the ammo dept. for 3 yrs. I have literally moved 10’s of thousands of ammo boxes myself. Never had one go off pick it them up nor putting them down. Never had a round go off in the store due to a dropped box which happens at least weekly.
Any body else ever had a round go off when they picked up a box of ammo?
I worked for Scheels during college. I ran the ammo dept. for 3 yrs. I have literally moved 10’s of thousands of ammo boxes myself. Never had one go off pick it them up nor putting them down. Never had a round go off in the store due to a dropped box which happens at least weekly.
I'm with you, does anyone know the force it take to set off a primer? Put your finger on a bolt face and pull the trigger, I bet it hurts, hope UPS or Fed EX don't see this thread or we will be pay haz-mat on shipping ammo
Barry, can you get a better pic of the primer on the discharged round?
eggzactly. I see a firing pin strike as well as primer flow, as in pronounced loss of radius. That did not happen inside a box on a counter.
But the image is severely out of focus. A good focus might yield very different conclusions.
At this point, I would guess the cartidge was held against the face of a bolt by an extractor in a vastly oversize chamber, then the stryker was dropped.
The story about detonation in the box on the counter is cover by a kid who was doing something he knew better than to do.
If you had a picture of the plastic tray that held all the ammo inside the box, might also get a more clear picture of what did or didn't happen. Agree with your assessment, that primer has been struck. I'm not so sure it was even in the box when it happened.
OK, the bullet clearly has an impact so let me explain this scenario that happened to my buddy. Here's the gun.
We went to the range and he had a cartridge not fully chamber so he honked on the lever jamming it in the chamber really tight. It wouldn't completely close so he took it home and dropped a cleaning rod down the bore, with the action open, and tapped the cleaning rod to knock the stuck cartridge out. It detonated and blew the stock apart. Only thing we can figure is he detonated it from the bullet end by pushing the bullet into the case, compressing the powder against the primer anvil and setting it off with the tapping motion.
We discovered a small percentage of the ammo would not chamber although trimmed to the right length. Case diameter just above the rim is a little too large. He's going to need small base dies for that rifle.
Could this pistol ammo have detonated by dropping it on the bullet end, compressing the powder charge against the primer anvil? The cartridge would have likely been in the corner of the box to take the hit.
Just a thought.
Oh, and here's my buddies rifle after repair. All's well that ends well.
*No lawyers were notified in the aftermath of the explosion.
I'd like to see the other rounds in the box. That primer looks to have been pressed, as in reloaded. I've seen that type of mark when primers are hard to seat.
This made me think. Is there ANY chance a badly loaded, removed\discarded, or second primer was somehow left in that box at the time of manufacturing?
Might the weight of the box contents have crushed said loose primer when the box was lifted - thereby causing the loaded primer "strike" - confirming what was reported by the person everyone assumes to be lying?
Flame away- I am not qualified in any way....just supposing from what was disclosed.
I just remembered bringing home a box of 1000 reloads the other day, reaching up to turn on the basement light and dropping the box, which banged and rolled down the full flight of stairs.
Box dented, cartridges fell out of their 50 round plastic sleeves, but nothing went off.
I worked for 9 years at one of the busiest commercial ranges in the country. In that time we had 2 occasions where a case of ammo was dropped and a round detonated. One employee received a superficial penetrating wound. It had to be reported as a GSW to the hospital and police.
OK, the bullet clearly has an impact so let me explain this scenario that happened to my buddy. Here's the gun.
We went to the range and he had a cartridge not fully chamber so he honked on the lever jamming it in the chamber really tight. It wouldn't completely close so he took it home and dropped a cleaning rod down the bore, with the action open, and tapped the cleaning rod to knock the stuck cartridge out. It detonated and blew the stock apart. Only thing we can figure is he detonated it from the bullet end by pushing the bullet into the case, compressing the powder against the primer anvil and setting it off with the tapping motion.
We discovered a small percentage of the ammo would not chamber although trimmed to the right length. Case diameter just above the rim is a little too large. He's going to need small base dies for that rifle.
Could this pistol ammo have detonated by dropping it on the bullet end, compressing the powder charge against the primer anvil? The cartridge would have likely been in the corner of the box to take the hit.
Just a thought.
Oh, and here's my buddies rifle after repair. All's well that ends well.
*No lawyers were notified in the aftermath of the explosion.
I don't know what happened to the pistol cartridge, but have been thinking about your buddy's adventure. Many reloading manuals list compressed charges. If what happened to your buddy were to take place in a seating die, I imagine it would be quite a lively event. Now I'm not saying your theory is wrong. I cannot disprove it at all. I'm just thinking out loud here.
Oh yeah...you did a helluva job repairing that stock!
I don't know what happened to the pistol cartridge, but have been thinking about your buddy's adventure. Many reloading manuals list compressed charges. If what happened to your buddy were to take place in a seating die, I imagine it would be quite a lively event. Now I'm not saying your theory is wrong. I cannot disprove it at all. I'm just thinking out loud here.
Oh yeah...you did a helluva job repairing that stock!
SCOPE: Determine cause of cartridge premature ignition.
Upon initial examination of the cartridge, it was evident there was an unnatural indention to the primer. Firing pins leave a small and fairly deep strike into the top surface of the primer, leaving the remainder of the surrounding surface at original height.
This particular primer had the majority of the top surface below the original plane of the top surface of the primer. The substantial outer ring around the outer edge of the primer corroborates this fact.
This damage would have located the anvil in the primer closer to the point it strikes to cause ignition of the primer, thus reducing the needed travel distance.
We investigated the brand of machinery used to load the cartridge at the factory, in order to find the dimension of the tooling used to seat the primer into the brass. The dimension of the tooling matched the diameter of the recessed area exactly.
We took notice to the damage on the end of the bullet that was in the cartridge.
Having gathered all of the above facts, we were comfortable with constructing a hypothesis we feel is strongly viable.
Hypothesis / Conclusion:
The cartridge was abruptly stopped while in motion, and was traveling on the same parallel as the firing pin travels. With the anvil travel distance greatly shortened from the damage to the surface of the primer, and locating it closer to the surface required to complete ignition of the primer, the inertia of the cartridge moving forward was carried forward from the weight of the primer surface and contacted the anvil to complete ignition.
We conclude the cartridge was damaged while being manufactured, and the premature ignition resulted from this.
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