It's been a few hours since we had a rip sportin' debate on religion.

Morning Wabi's. Sorry my friend, been busy with real life. Besides all you Campfire Christians have been behaving yourself the last few days and even staying on topic in gun threads posted up here in the Freak Show. Even Happy's had some good input.

Enjoy your morning.

I should recall your name?

Have a great day!

At this point the 5 people who still care to debate may as well just pm each other

C&P from any of the plethora of other similar threads.

Religion involves ‘belief’. There was nothing ‘religious’ about the faith of Jesus’ original 1st century followers regarding Him. Christianity did not begin with people who ‘believed’ something; Christianity began with people who saw something, and ‘then’ believed in the person they saw back from the dead. Christianity began with overt evidence: they saw Him die, they later looked into an empty tomb, and then later on they had breakfast with Him on the beach.

Now you've done it Antlers. Happy Wabigoon?

Yep, there is a big difference between religion and relationship. Kinda like having a backstage pass instead the cheap seats in the nose bleed section.

Allegedly...supposedly this reborn 'Jesus' looked nothing like the original. How convieniet is that?

If there is a hell i'm damn sure likely to find it due to the "christians" right here on this forum!

TRH won't be joining us today.
He's too busy shooting another blackpowder gun and posting new pictures.

True.

He only concealed His identity to a couple of disciples who first saw Him. Probably so they would be blessed even more by believing the OT. Prophecies from Genesis to Malachi that He taught them as they walked.
All of the others not only recognized His face, but also were shown literal wounds of railroad sized spike holes in His hands and spear wound in the side as big as a fist.

He’s in a better place now...

PM incoming!

😂

In the case of Christianity those who have a relationship with our Lord get to observe His invitation to feast on His flesh and drink His blood, and be washed of wine by the waters of baptism on His account, all of which are recognized as intimately real evidence of His love AND religious in their nature.

A twofer.

You guys know there are other religions besides Christianity....right?



Annnnnnddd.....go.....

Where did you find that? It's not in my Bible.

i've allus believed it'd be difficult if not impossible for a mortal human to kill a real god. and then there's the heretics down through the ages and the others.

I was raised Catholic but gave it up for Lent one year.

I'm not Catholic. No cannibalism or vampires in my theology.

Nope this time we are gonna break out the snakes and toss them around a little.

I’m not Roman Catholic either but I believe the words of
Our Lord as recorded in Scripture.

Do you?

A recovering catholic.

Religion? Yes. Christian.

As to all the ones that point to this or that confirming non belief, I urge to to quit wasting your time. Fairly simple, I believe. And there are certain rewards to that so to speak.

You don't get a reward for trying to point out why not to believe. So that time is better spent for you shooting, reloading etc...

Just some advice.

My thought after several years of reflecting is: religion is basically a tool to explain the unexplainable and a means of directing behavior.

I also hope that if there are indeed afterlife rewards that regardless of whether one is Hindu, Christian, Buddhist, or whatever he will gain entry if he lived a good life.

So you believe Jesus was telling those with a relationship with Him to eat His flesh and drink His blood, and you're not a Catholic of the Roman variety? The real evidence of His love was displayed on the cross. How religious was that? Goodness man! What has gotten into you these days?

Heaven or Hell is a choice and Christians send no one either place. Life is HIS creation and gift. We choose to live by the spirit or flesh and whether to reject or accept HIM as our Creator.
All sin. HE can forgive all sin if one accepts HIM. HE cant absolve the unforgivable sin because in that situation the sinner doesnt believe in HIM or HIS ability to forgive.

A doctor cant cause healing if the patient rejects tbe treatment.

Wondering. Have any of you ever wondered just what a soul that goes to Heaven does when it gets there? Do souls eat and if so, is there a central dining hall for all heavenly souls? What kind of food is served and how often? Does a soul sleep and if so, where? Does a soul have its own house, apartment, condo, cabin, etc.? Or is there just one gigantic barracks where all souls sleep? Do Heavenly souls get together with the souls of loved ones who also went to Heaven? Do souls not do much but walk around on golden streets in long white robes playing golden harps throughout eternity? Other questions but these'll do.

Just wondering.

L.W.

Organized Religion is the worst thing to happen to Christianity. But it’s what man does with any gift. Pervert it to their own views and prejudices in order to feel better about themselves.

I hope we have chocolate milk! Actually, Heaven is actually hard for me to get a grip on. Better by far than the best day in the best place this life has to offer. Hope I see you there. We can be amazed together.

Correct. Never been a Romanist; my tradition actually names the Pope as a force of anti-Christ. We also explicitly reject the doctrine of transubstantiation.

Genuine question... if Jesus said something in Scripture are we who are in a saving relationship with Him bound to believe He meant it?

Another genuine question for all Christians; is the physical world the only “reality” there is? Can, in the instance of our Lord’s Supper, one believe that there is, mysteriously, a REAL presence as He said, while rejecting transubstantiation?




Religion is defined as: a particular system of faith and worship so yeah, given that I believe that He truly offered Himself on the cross, was in the ground for 3 days, and that God resurrected Him from the dead, I’d say that’s religious in its nature.

Unless we’re using a different definition of the word “religion”?






Nothing new... I have always believed in the words of our Lord recorded in Scripture:

John 6: 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.

And in His supper:

Mt 26: 26 Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and after blessing it broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, “Take, eat; this is my body.” 27 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, “Drink of it, all of you, 28 for this is my blood of the[c] covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29 I tell you I will not drink again of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.”

And then just to reenforce the point the Apostle Paul says:

1 Cor 11: 23 For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, “This is my body, which is for[f] you. Do this in remembrance of me.”[g] 25 In the same way also he took the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.


I tend to believe that all of these passages are absolutely true and that, in His lovingkindness, Christ left this as a gift for His people.

Do you disagree?

I’m genuinely interested in anyone’s answers to the questions above. They have lead me to my thoughts on the supper.

Kind of late to be asking that now. If you’ve pissed away 80 years loafing, the big guy might let you wash dishes for eternity. Unless he was a Gunsmoke fan.

LOL

For anyone that does not, "get it", we are Saved by one thing. and one thing only.

Ummm.........antelope_sniper.........

No Paul, the gentleman I referred to , and I have swapped pleasant PM's , and a phone call.

I've came to the same understanding as you. Could be because we are brothers, & the same Holy Spirit that dwells in you dwells in me.

And it's time we do that again. I'll plan to be busy the next few nights, but will hope to catch up with you soon.

A lot of people believe you choose Heaven or Hell. That’s isn’t really true - no sane person would ever choose Hell and torment in a lake of fire. Even is you think it is a fairytale, you aren’t going to deliberately choose Hell. What you are really choosing is your sin over God’s forgiveness. You are saying “nah, I don’t need that, I’m good and I like to do what I like to do”. Christians on the other hand, recognize they are sinners and simply ask God’s forgiveness which comes through faith in what Christ did when he was crucified and rose again.
Personally, if you don’t want forgiveness, that’s on you and nobody else. The Gospel has been presented numerous times on this forum. I’m not going to argue the point anymore. I’ll pray for some, but I can’t make anyone believe anything.

I think the clarification by Paul is helpful. He quotes Jesus. Jesus said when he broke the bread, "this is my body which is for you". It was a symbol. It wasn't his literal body. His literal body was saying it. We partake of the symbols in remembrance of his death. I don't see any need for transubstiation or mysticism.

One last point. For a Christian, life on this earth, no matter how bad, is as bad as it is ever going to get. For an unbeliever, this life is as good as it is ever going to get.

Isaiah 65:21-22
And they shall build houses, and inhabit them, and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat

Please prove this bold statement.

It's simple.

This is the view I was raised with.

My questions are:

1) does Paul say Christ was speaking symbolically; should our interpretation of that passage take place taking the words of our Lord in John 6 into account?

2) do you believe the Scriptures to be literally true?

3) is it mysticism to say that something supernatural is going on if God says there is even when we can’t quantify it or observe it with our physical senses?

4) do you believe that the spiritual realm is just as real as the one in which we sit right now?

If you won’t believe me now, what makes you think you would believe if I showed you?

Luke 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

what does that even mean?? that is the most bibled up gobbledygook crap. I heard that kind of stuff my whole life, sitting in the 3rd pew every freaking service the church had...and I'm thinking, what does this stuff even MEAN?

that was 40 years ago and It still sounds like some gobbledygook that someone made up to get the attention of people who would cough up money to hear it.

Why should anyone believe anything in the Bible?

I'm really curious about this too.

It'll be worship 24/7, anything less just doesn't show sufficient gratitude for eternal salvation (no free ride)

i believe if jesus was alive and walking and talking on urth, he and trump would be side by side and advising everyone to receive a shot in the arm. it'd be helping people in this life before departing for the heavenly zone.

Oh, OK..I knew there would be a simple answer.

So if you go to hell, what goes on down there...just pain and suffering for eternity?.....asking for a friend.

Why believe something in a Quantum Physics book? You probably understand as much of that.

Ingwe and others here - I do not know a simple answer with specifics for either - the eternal doings in Heaven or in Hell. Although having read quite a bit, I still wonder as well. For Christians, those descriptions are found at various points in the Holy Bible. I do not try to interpret the Bible for others and, as far as I can remember, have not quoted Scripture on here as a response to anyone or anything. I do not wish to start now at this late date - but firmly believe some good answers are there. In my case, the relationship with God is very personal - not associated with any particular denomination or church - and the search of the Scriptures is the same. Wondering takes some folks to that source.

I'll just Trust in The Lord.

Tell your friend that the answer to his question is "probably". Mind you the non-stop worshipping in heaven doesn't sound like a lot of fun. Muslims can become eligible for 72 virgins providing they follow the correct entry conditions, but probably want to check out the fine print for better clarification/qualification.

There's still a purgatory period for Catholics though before they can enter heaven - in the old days one could pay the church to reduce or even eliminate the purgatory period, and you could buy vouchers to give friends and family.

Nobody is told to believe in quantum physics. It's up to the individual to study QM, if they are interested.

As an act of Christian charity and goodwill what little I have I offer you for free; no “coughing up” of money to hear it.

I did expand upon what I was saying in the following posts if your question wasn’t rhetorical.

when people say this....especially when they refer to some noteworthy or important life event that needs or requires significant effort, they say "well..I'm just going to turn it over to the lord and let him lead me and it's in his hands" (Translate)- PhuQ this, I'm tired of trying and I give up, and if this (event) turns to total horse-Schite then my smugness with religion should persuade anyone watching that I gave it my all...

Losers

I can’t speak for “anyone” only myself. I mean that sincerely as many people express their belief and doubt and unbelief in different ways.

This gentleman said it better than I could, expanding upon the words of the Westminster Confession of Faith:

Scott Oliphint
January 15, 2013
iv. The authority of the Holy Scripture, for which it ought to be believed, and obeyed, dependeth not upon the testimony of any man, or Church; but wholly upon God (who is truth itself) the author thereof: and therefore it is to be received, because it is the Word of God.

One of the first things that must be firmly embedded in our minds, both as Christians and consequently as biblical apologists, is the absolute self-attesting authority of Scripture. It is generally agreed that, if any section of the Westminster Confession of Faith was more carefully crafted than another, it was the section that deals with Holy Scripture. You can, no doubt, understand some of the reasons for that, particularly in the face of opposition from Roman Catholicism. The Confession is concerned, particularly in section four of chapter one, to show that it is in Scripture's authority that we see its divinity and inspiration represented.

Notice first of all, that the divines are interested here in the authority of Scripture. And the intent of the paragraph is to set out for us the ground or reason why the Scriptures are authoritative, and thus why they ought to be believed and obeyed. They set out, very clearly, that the authority of Scripture does not, in any way, rest on the Church or its councils. Rather, its authority rests on its author, God, and is to be received because it is His Word. This is sometimes called the autopiston of Scripture, translated as self-attesting, or self-authenticating. What does that mean?

It does not mean self-evident. Self-authentication is an objective attribute, whereas self-evident refers more specifically to the knowing agent. It therefore does not mean that revelation as self-authenticated compels agreement. That which is self-authenticating can be denied. It does mean that it needs no other authority as confirmation in order to be justified and absolutely authoritative in what it says. This does not mean that nothing else attends that authority; there are other evidences, which the next section makes clear. What it does mean is that nothing else whatsoever is needed, nor is there anything else that is able to supersede this ground, in order for Scripture to be deemed authoritative. This is, at least in part, what God means when he says, in Isaiah 55, that His Word, simply by going out, will accomplish what He desires. This is the case because of what God's Word is in itself. It always goes out with authority, because it carries His own authority with it.

https://www.reformation21.org/confession/2013/01/chapter-14.php

Same with the Bible. Your individual choice.

Well speaking for myself you got it right up to here ^


That is, I got to a point in my life, and because I’m at my core sinful I continue to, when I realized that my best efforts were $h!t, hit my knees out of a complete lack of self confidence based upon past results, and begged God to forgive my sins and guide me through life.

Just my .02 and worth every bit you paid for it .

And yes, I lost... was a genuine loser. No doubt in my mind whatsoever.

Efw,....and others,

You have a sincere question and are seeking an answer that more should perhaps ask.
What about the Lord's supper or the Eucharist as some call it?

When He shared the loaf of unleavened bread with His disciples, was he being literal or not?

I come from a Roman Catholic background and have heard a lot of criticism towards those they call "fundamentalists" for interpreting the Bible literally.
However, the Catholic Churches official positions are that of taking the passages you cited as completely literal. This is one of their primary dogmas.
According to them, IF you do not believe that their priests call Christ down into the wafer and wine literally in a "hidden form":
They teach that you are damned with what they call a mortal sin.

What does the Bible teach about this?

"And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.".
I Corinthians 11

When Jesus taught this recorded in the gospels, I ask, was He holding the bread and telling them, This bread is REALLY ME, not the man before you?
He knew He was about to be crucified in that bloody torture. Was He telling them, THAT BLOOD is NOT really what I mean, its the REAL blood that I am holding in this cup. I know it kind of looks and tastes like grape juice, but it's just a mystical form that you can not sense.

The Catholic priests might say that, but Jesus, the true High Priest, never did.

Go back and read and put yourself in the shoes of the disciples. Notice that as often as they share the unleavened bread and juice, they were to do it in
" remembrance of me ".

1. This was what we would call today a memorial.
The bread represented the broken body of Jesus
The wine/ juice represented the shed blood.
Jesus offered it as a type or picture of the reality, Not the other way around. Today we would hold a photograph or cell phone and say, "This is my family...etc". The picture is not the literal family members, but we don't take the obvious and misunderstand what is said. Jesus' choice of a picture was something that would continue to exist throughout the ages, not dependent on technology.

2. The priests desecrate the real sacrifice that was offered by their often resacraficing of what THEY call Christ's offering 2,000 years ago. See Hebrews 10 now.

"10
By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;...
14
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified....
18
Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin."

Nothing can be added to or taken away from Christ's all sufficient sacrifice. It was once and paid for ALL sins past, present and future. The priest offer masses that can never take away sins.

Lastly, the Lord was NOT breaking His own laws by instituting canibolism and the drinking of literal blood.
Jesus was the only acceptable Sacrifice as He NEVER sinned. We do, which is why we are damned to hell.
"Our righteousness are as filthy rags." Think if how much you can buy with a dirty diaper.
Can our/your own good deeds add to what Jesus did?
No, a whole pile of diapers can't pay for even one lie.
It's not a matter of giving up sins, or sacrificing our lives as martyrs that amounts to anything.

Revelation 21:8
"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

This is why He suffered and died.
He loves you/ us so much he endured the torture for every man and woman's sins. Then He died in our place to purchase the free gift of Everlasting Life that He now offers.


John 3:16,17,18
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. "

Everyone reading this is already condemned.
We've all lied and done far worse than that. The object of our faith has been_____________(trying to keep the golden rule, treat others with kindness, baptism, giving up habits, etc.)
All of those things keep you condemned.
God requires us to quit trusting those things in the blanks and transfer your trust to His Son 100%.
He must be the object of your faith.

Ephesians 2:8, 9"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."
Grace = His kind favor
Saved from hell
Faith in His Son, not our works
Gift = He already paid for it and it cost Him His life.

When you completely trust Him and throw away the other stuff in filthy rags, then what does He promise to give you?
His gift of Everlasting Life.

When I received that gift, I said a simple prayer to Him;
Much like this.

"Dear God,

I don't deserve to go to heaven.
I deserve hell. Please save me from there forever.
Please give me that free gift of Everlasting life in heaven that Your Son paid for. I believe that He was punished for everything I ever did wrong, that He died for me and arose the third day.
I no longer trust in anything that I can do.
My trust is totally in Him now.
Thank You for your promise and the wonderful gift.

In Jesus Name,
Amen"

I hope that everyone who reads this will stop and take a moment to pray this too. God keeps His promises.

Not what I meant. Christian theology tells us 'believe this or face eternal damnation.' Not studying QM, or having little or no interest in it, holds no penalty.

Just watched this video of a prime reason why this mother needs to read my post.

https://www.infowars.com/posts/mask...atened-with-arrest-kicked-out-of-church/

I grew up in a Church of God family in rural Alabama. Church of God people are very similar to Baptists. Which leads me to one of the first problems I had with Christianity. If you Christians are all studying this one undeniable truth laid down in the Bible by God then how come there are 200 different denominations of Christianity in the US alone. (Far more than that world wide) Why isn't there just one church called Christian. Seems like even among Christians you guys can't get together on the one true path.

But one of my main problems is what a ridiculous system of justice the Christian god has arranged. Lets look at two case studies shall we.

Example one is a gentleman who is born in India. His parents are Hindu. All the people in his town are Hindu. All the people in his entire region of the country are Hindu. So surprise, surprise, he grows up to be a Hindu. Just like all of you would have if you had been born where he was. But I digress. This guy lives a peaceful honorable life. He doesn't lie, cheat or steal. He marries a woman and is very good to her. Takes care of her, never cheats on her, never harms her. They have some children who he also cares for like a very loving father. Works his ass off to provide for them. And eventually he passes away never having harmed a living soul on this earth. But he was a Hindu so for the sin of being a member of the predominate religion where he was born his soul is flung into a pit of fire where he burns and screams and suffers for all eternity without any hope of it ever ending. What a just punishment for such an evil man. Right? But it gets better. Lets examine case number 2.

Example two is a guy who was born in America. This guy spends most of his adult life raping and killing small children. In fact he runs up a total of about 30 boys under the age of 12 that he anally sodomized and then finished off by slitting their throats. Eventually he is captured and convicted of these crimes and rightfully sentenced to death. Luckily for him however he happened to be born where the one special correct religion was being taught. So as he is being led down the hallway on death row to the execution chamber to be put to death he decides to turn his life over to Jesus Christ. You know, all 6 minutes of it that he has left. And if in that one moment he really means it then he goes to heaven to party with god and Jesus in eternal bliss forever. Wow! What a great system of cosmic justice that makes great sense. Surely, only a god could devise a system this fair. But as a side benefit I guess that second guy will be an interesting soul for you guys to talk to in heaven. I mean you guys can tell him hunting stories and he can describe to you what it's like to slit a kids throat while you still have your penis up his rectum. You guys will just be best buds for all eternity together.

And spare me the cliche "We are saved by grace not deeds" horse manure. To me that is just a feeble line concocted by men to try and excuse a system under which such examples as above are possible. If the best your god can come up with is a system where Hitler gets the same punishment in the afterlife as a guy who just ate meat on a Friday then your god is either a monster or an idiot and I think that I will hold out for a better deity.

And what if Hitler accepted Jesus as his saviour just before be PPK'ed himself - that would place in heaven right now, and would make some conversations up there somewhat uncomfortable, but who's to judge?

Willto,

Please go back to my post on this subject.
It's the first and this is the third post so far.
It will explain grace.

One thing that we must understand is that there's not a just man upon the earth that doeth good and sinneth not. For all have sinned and come SHORT of the glory of God.

The hypothetical you gave shows the extremes that somehow there's some hindu that never told a lie, etc.
Now go look in the mirror before bed and ask yourself if you are that man. I don't think you will find perfection or the Saviour there. He only exists on the right hand of the Father.

". So as he is being led down the hallway on death row to the execution chamber to be put to death he decides to turn his life over to Jesus Christ. "

Whatever preacher told you this did not get his instructions from the Bible.
This is the opposite of what God requires for salvation according to His Word.

Please prayerfully read the post with an open KJBible.
Then maybe we can talk tomorrow.

Have a good night.

Show me where anything more is required.

“Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved” (Acts 16:30-31).

"For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” (Romans 10:13)

“For if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. (Romans 10:9-11)

"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works," (Ephesians 2:8-10)

I’ve learned there are rules of biblical interpretation that must be consistent. My take on John 6, is that it doesn’t necessarily need to apply in interpreting 1 Cor.11. But, Jesus being the bread of life and giving himself ties together. But cannibalism is not what he’s talking about. I think Jesus point is summed up in “I’m the bread of life” which refers to eternal spiritual life. So, I do believe in a spiritual realm, but won’t claim to have a full handle on it. Spirituality isn’t necessarily mystical, but too often is made so. The scriptures are not all literal. But they are true given proper interpretation.

I’m not making claims to be the best interpreter. I have no formal education towards that.

I think you’re saying that Jesus body and blood are spiritually present in the communion elements. Would that detract from the once for all sacrifice of Christ like transubstantiation?

Sorry, I do this from my phone and it’s hard to dialogue and communicate well.

Willto ....and others,

You have a sincere question and are seeking an answer that more should perhaps ask.
What about the Lord's supper or the Eucharist as some call it?

When He shared the loaf of unleavened bread with His disciples, was he being literal or not?

I come from a Roman Catholic background and have heard a lot of criticism towards those they call "fundamentalists" for interpreting the Bible literally.
However, the Catholic Churches official positions are that of taking the passages you cited as completely literal. This is one of their primary dogmas.
According to them, IF you do not believe that their priests call Christ down into the wafer and wine literally in a "hidden form":
They teach that you are damned with what they call a mortal sin.

What does the Bible teach about this?

"And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.".
I Corinthians 11

When Jesus taught this recorded in the gospels, I ask, was He holding the bread and telling them, This bread is REALLY ME, not the man before you?
He knew He was about to be crucified in that bloody torture. Was He telling them, THAT BLOOD is NOT really what I mean, its the REAL blood that I am holding in this cup. I know it kind of looks and tastes like grape juice, but it's just a mystical form that you can not sense.

The Catholic priests might say that, but Jesus, the true High Priest, never did.

Go back and read and put yourself in the shoes of the disciples. Notice that as often as they share the unleavened bread and juice, they were to do it in
" remembrance of me ".

1. This was what we would call today a memorial.
The bread represented the broken body of Jesus
The wine/ juice represented the shed blood.
Jesus offered it as a type or picture of the reality, Not the other way around. Today we would hold a photograph or cell phone and say, "This is my family...etc". The picture is not the literal family members, but we don't take the obvious and misunderstand what is said. Jesus' choice of a picture was something that would continue to exist throughout the ages, not dependent on technology.

2. The priests desecrate the real sacrifice that was offered by their often resacraficing of what THEY call Christ's offering 2,000 years ago. See Hebrews 10 now.

"10
By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;...
14
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified....
18
Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin."

Nothing can be added to or taken away from Christ's all sufficient sacrifice. It was once and paid for ALL sins past, present and future. The priest offer masses that can never take away sins.

Lastly, the Lord was NOT breaking His own laws by instituting canibolism and the drinking of literal blood.
Jesus was the only acceptable Sacrifice as He NEVER sinned. We do, which is why we are damned to hell.
"Our righteousness are as filthy rags." Think if how much you can buy with a dirty diaper.
Can our/your own good deeds add to what Jesus did?
No, a whole pile of diapers can't pay for even one lie.
It's not a matter of giving up sins, or sacrificing our lives as martyrs that amounts to anything.

Revelation 21:8
"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

This is why He suffered and died.
He loves you/ us so much he endured the torture for every man and woman's sins. Then He died in our place to purchase the free gift of Everlasting Life that He now offers.


John 3:16,17,18
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. "

Everyone reading this is already condemned.
We've all lied and done far worse than that. The object of our faith has been_____________(trying to keep the golden rule, treat others with kindness, baptism, giving up habits, etc.)
All of those things keep you condemned.
God requires us to quit trusting those things in the blanks and transfer your trust to His Son 100%.
He must be the object of your faith.

Ephesians 2:8, 9"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."
Grace = His kind favor
Saved from hell
Faith in His Son, not our works
Gift = He already paid for it and it cost Him His life.

When you completely trust Him and throw away the other stuff in filthy rags, then what does He promise to give you?
His gift of Everlasting Life.

When I received that gift, I said a simple prayer to Him;
Much like this.

"Dear God,

I don't deserve to go to heaven.
I deserve hell. Please save me from there forever.
Please give me that free gift of Everlasting life in heaven that Your Son paid for. I believe that He was punished for everything I ever did wrong, that He died for me and arose the third day.
I no longer trust in anything that I can do.
My trust is totally in Him now.
Thank You for your promise and the wonderful gift.

In Jesus Name,
Amen"

I hope that everyone who reads this will stop and take a moment to pray this too. God keeps His promises.

I'll just say that for me, the older I get, the easier it is not to be "of the world", to borrow a phrase.

Although I'll admit that people and events tend to drag me back into it on a frequent basis.

I like to listen to *some* of the people who have had a transitional experience between the world and the rest. Most of those who seem genuine go through life with a much different perspective than everybody else.

Interesting speaker:

At this point B, i'm running with 100% con.

Exactly why I did not return a call request with Wabi. Just finish a stir and start another. Rick needs a place for such threads and I believe he once had one...

With all due respect cause I know you put a lot of effort into that but I do not see a single word in all of that which disputes the examples that I listed. According to the Bible all one must do is accept Jesus as their personal savior and ask for forgiveness to be saved. I even posted quotes to back that up. So sorry but the raping child murderer still gets a mansion in heaven for his last minute conversion.

No, but im hearing they do a lot of sweating in hell.

Damn right they had one Ed, it was a cluster fu-k extraordinaire! if peace, love and light are so true, pure and available, how is it nothing but a constant stinking bullshlt sandwich?

I'll tell ya how, weak little beta men demanding others think the way they do because they haven't the testicular fortitude to have accomplished enough in life that others can SEE and FOLLOW!...........................fu-k faith, look right here, you can see it!

And what does it take to get Graced?

1. Yer prolly the first to ever come up with that revolutionary idear. Im not sure several years of reflecting can let us know more truth than HIS message to us in the form of the Bible. I figure those believers who HE had deliver HIS message to HIS kids and the suffering they endured to deliver it may carry more authenticity re what HE wanted us to know than the diverse results of a diverse people doing several years of reflecting.

After years of reflecting i wonder just which sheep shagger came up with teh idea that he ought to print down his idea saying the Bible is adequate for reproach ........ I gurantee the author of that had a high IQ. In fact, that required an IQ high enough to know many would try to find the message they were comfortable with by doing several years of reflecting.
Im thinking the statement that one should not lean on their own understanding to be quite enlightening also. The shephard who jotted that down was pretty sharp too. Why, its almost as if that shephard knew all about you, many years before your parents did. Scarey smart.

2. You know what they say, "hope in one hand and .......".

Just so you know, I hope i win the publishers clearing house sweepstakes.

What always happens in these discussions is that Christians just throw a lot of Bible verses at you as if that proves anything. The Biblle is what is in question. Trusting it as proof of itself is like asking the accused person at a trial if he committed the crime and then letting his answer be the only thing that decides the outcome of the case. What do you think the defendent is going to say? Likewise naturally the text of the Bible is going to present itself as absolute truth. But here is the concept that Christians cannot seem to grasp. For starters with the Bible you are not putting your faith in God. First and foremost you are putting your faith in the people who wrote the Bible. People who lived 2000 years ago that you don't know from Adam's house cat. And who were these people? Superstitious goat herders that thought the earth was flat and that witches actually exist. People that I can assure you knew faaaaar less about the true nature of the universe than you or I. That is who you are first putting your faith in that the Bible is the word of God. And that is the big honking weak link in the chain.

And the passion with which people believe something is no evidence of it's validity either. There are about 4300 religions on this planet. The people of these religions believe them fervantly and think they are on the one true path to god. But simple deductive logic tells you that 4299 of them have to be wrong. And if 4299 of them can be wrong (as they surely are) then all 4300 can be as well.

Oh but they do. Either HE is a liar or man is. HE says they can look around and see HIS presence by what HE created. I can look around and see the evidence of HIM in HIS creation so i know others can too, unless they refuse to and thus refuse HIM. Refusing to is a choice. Its refusing Him, which is choosing hell.

Amen.

And, of course, if believers dont know everything HE knows, and if believers know HIM, then of course, by logic, there is no HIM.

Wrong.

Do you know your doctor or lowyer? Yes. Do you know all he knows? No. Is ne real? Yes.

When you were a child and looked forward to your birthday party or Christmas, did you know what all you were going to get or how wonderful it would be? Or, did your parents want to surprise you the way HE must want to surprise us, HIS kids. Created in HIS image.

I may someday have breakfast on Mars and lunch on Saturn. I may hunt quail a whole month with all my previous bird dogs.

No, i dont know, but im pretty dang sure it will be better than the alternative.

If it werent so, HE would have gained nothing by telling us so. Do you lie to your childern?

Youre a liar. The greatest gift anyone could ever have is totally free. And that gift is perfect because that greatest gift of everlasting life will be free of liars like thee.

Truth.

Proof?

Now youre on track. Yep. Gobbeldy gook. Gods a gitten alla thet money an stickin it in tha bank i tell ya. Needs ta by hima nother uni verse. Heza fleecin tha suckers.

I believe that Jesus is God and that He became man and died for my sins and the sins of all others who will but accept the offer of free salvation by belief in Him. I accepted His offer and am saved. Jesus died but then rose from the dead, defeating the powers of hell and death and now lives forever and ever. Amen.

There is no work that man can do which will earn his way into heaven. To get there, one must accept Jesus' free offer and believe in Jesus unto faith in Him. My belief itself was a free gift from God and I have faith I am saved. There is only one way, God's way.

Yeah I made that up, but where's your proof otherwise? With so many wild claims of your beliefs, and proclaiming them as truth, yet you have no proof - doesn't that make you a liar?

I was really headed towards being an atheist, but all the atheists cramming all their unbeliever crap down my throat has really turned me from beimg an atheist. You guys really pissed me off cramming your unreligious crap on me, so i just decided im going to be a bliever instead.
Really. Its alls ur fault. U didit. Aint on me. I tried to warn you. Beg me r ill doit. Ok. That settles it.

To hell with yall. Im A Believer As of Now.

I have a feeling that this post suffers a good bit in its "translation".

Hahaha!

No kidding.

No, no it's accurate. For the longest time people lived a crappy existence that they had no control over, and a pleasant afterlife was the only thing that they had to look forward to, so they fell onto religion. At least then they could make some effort at something and be seen to be doing something. The churches were able to make profit out of this too - so it was a win-win.

Almost caught religion once, thankfully the Doctor gave me some of that yellar soap, and it went away.

No need to apologize I genuinely appreciate your response and the spirit with which it is offered.

Thanks for the engagement it’s responses like these that I appreciate most. I’m thinking through some things and enjoy being able to bounce things off of people who are open to dialog on these topics.

Grace & peace to you and yours sir!

I like and respect both you guys a lot; I greatly enjoy your contributions to discussions you’re interested in on the fire so I don’t mean this with any disrespect at all.

Almost every day I check in and see what’s being discussed here on the fire. There are topics that I enjoy talking about, some I enjoy reading about, some in which I have no interest at all, and others that I know are going to go in a direction I don’t like. I make a choice to open or not open them and to participate or not participate based upon that analysis. I don’t need Rick to “banish” topics or people I don’t like I just don’t read their input or engage them.

Just my method of dealing with the issues you raise. Take it or leave it but I hope you don’t take offense.

Agree Jag👍

The Protestant Reformation gave us sola scriptura, because the reformers believed like many today that the scriptures...not the church, and not anything else...are the ultimate authority for mankind. This is why they were so adamant about making copies of the scriptures and getting them into the hands of the people. The church saw it as a threat because if everyone had the scriptures, and no one took the church and its traditions seriously, the church would lose its power. But unfortunately, the scriptures...due to ‘by scripture alone’...became the same thing that papal authority was before. It became a weapon; people were now armed with scriptures and they did exactly what the church had done before. And consequently they split into over a thousand different denominations; they weren’t divided because some loved better than others, or because some loved differently than others; they were divided because of their interpretation of the texts. And they each were telling other people how to live, and what would get them into Heaven. And Protestants have been beating people over the head with the Bible ever since.

Will some of you kind folks that have visited with me, please tell Ed, I don't bite!

Good Morning Wabi.

Hope you're enjoying a nice spring morning.

😄👍

Were the likes of Peter and Paul guilty of beating people over the head with the Bible? True that our sinful nature comes out in our best intentions, but I don’t think we should stop standing for truth as best we can.

Are you 100% certain that you will go to heaven some day?

You mean the opium of the masses? carry on

Actually Paul had a history of beating people over the head BECAUSE of their faith. Then, as Saul of Tarsus, he made that fateful journey towards Damascus. Things kinda changed then, you might say.

I believe that Jesus died for my sin and rose from the dead. I have no doubts whatsoever. And for me, following Jesus has as much or more to do with this life as it does the next.

Peter and Paul didn’t have ‘the Bible’. Somehow many people have gotten the idea that the Bible is Christianity, and as the Bible goes, so goes Christianity. For me, nothing could be further from the truth. Christianity does not rise and fall on the integrity or the verifiability of the Bible. Christianity preceded the Bible; the reason we have the Bible is because of something that happened. There were many thousands of Christians before ‘the Bible’ ever came along in the 4th century.
Jesus told His Jewish followers that their scriptures pointed to Him. He said He was the fulfillment of all in what we call the OT. And some of His followers believed Him, they saw that it lined up with Him and the things they were seeing. They started believing He was the Messiah who was the fulfillment of the Jewish scriptures. And then He was crucified...game over, lights out...clearly He was wrong and they were wrong about Him. And there were no Jesus followers immediately after the Crucifixion. And they no longer believed that Jesus was the son of God when they saw Him die. And then He rose from the dead and the whole thing got started; and suddenly all those Jewish followers went back to those scriptures that Jesus said told of Him and concluded that He was right, they’d lost faith, He was back, they were back, and everything in their scriptures pointed to Him. Christianity preceded the Bible. If you never opened the OT, if you never saw an OT, if suddenly the entire OT vanished from Christianity, it would do nothing to undermine Christianity. Because Christianity began when Jesus rose from the dead, and they recognized He was who He claimed to be. People followed Jesus after the resurrection because of the resurrection. That’s how Christianity got started. It is not near as fragile as many think; it does not hang by a thread of some passage in scripture or by some miracle Jesus performed in the NT, it’s much more sturdier than that. If it was that fragile, Christianity would have never survived the 1st century.

That's awesome!
I know you told others of His resurrection and show confidence in Him.

Where else does that come from if not His Word, the Bible?

I was really headed towards being a believer, but all the believers cramming all their believer crap down my throat, coupled with their very non-Christian forum posts, has really turned me from being a believer. You guys really pissed me off cramming your religious crap on me, so i just decided I'm going to be a nonbeliever instead.

Really. Its all's your fault. You did it. Ain't on me. I tried to warn you. Beg me or I'll do it. Ok. That settles it.

To hell with y'all. I'm a Nonbeliever As of Now.

Actually, some of my post does not reflect my actual thinking, but the point is simply that cramming stuff down people's throats is a two way street. In addition, the self-righteous stuff spouted by a lot of non-righteous people is a big turn off. If the messengers are that messed up, it makes one wonder about the message.

Jesus ‘can’ reveal Himself in any manner He chooses. God doesn’t ‘only’ reveal Himself through the Bible. Jesus isn’t bound by the covers of a book. The fact that none of the apostles, and none of the many early first century followers of Jesus had the Bible clearly didn’t interfere with their salvation, or their ability to have communion with God. Not having a Bible was clearly not an issue with any of em’.
Matthew told of Jesus before there ever was ‘the Bible’, so did Mark, so did Luke, so did John, so did Peter, so did James (the brother of Jesus), and so did Paul...all separate accounts of Jesus, independent from one another...centuries before they were ever bound together and included in ‘the Bible’.
My perspective anchors to the event of the resurrection rather than to the authority of ‘the Bible’. I don’t take what the above men said seriously because their documents are in the Bible; I think their documents were included in the Bible because these men were eyewitnesses and early Jesus followers understood the value of their documents. So where some might choose to cross-examine the Bible, it’d be more appropriate to cross-examine Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, James, and Paul...all separate accounts of Jesus...independent from one another.

I'll agree Antlers, "Something", in a life moves one to The Bible.

Just because one isn't a bible thumper doesn't make them a atheist.
Both can be considered radical nuts.
Most of the founding fathers were agnostic or deist. I consider myself agnostic.

Yup, it's this simple:

Ro 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Remember the thief on The Cross.

I post some raw stuff. I am a Christian but I've never claimed to be perfect or a good one.

I am probably way too laid back to push my religion on somebody. I should probably do it more. When you think about it, using logic, if there really is only one way to heaven (and I believe there is) then are you not doing your fellows a favor by pushing that way as hard as you possibly can since this life is short and finite whereas eternity is long and infinite? If you could push and prod and berate people into Heaven, shouldn't you? I don't believe you can force somebody to believe. I think belief and faith are a gift and no amount of force from a man, short of God Himself, Jesus, can cause a man to believe.

Non-believers many times IMO, see simple presentation of God's side of things as "pushing religion on them". The world pushes all sorts of alternative religion, including the religion of no religion, off on non-believers every day, yet they fail to see this.

"The god of this world has blinded their eyes." I seem to remember reading that somewhere.

Amen.

A reminder that grace does not depend on what we have done for God but rather on what God has done for us.

I like discussing ideas and although I am a bit set in my ways I’m open to being corrected if a strong case is made.

I don’t consider it my place to debate Christianity with non-believers. If someone asks me an honest question I’ll do my best to give an honest answer. I also try to conduct myself recognizing that non-believers may be lurking who want answers and I don’t want to stand in the way of that person seeing the truth of our Lord and His story.

I really enjoy learning about the different faith traditions that make up historic Christianity. I don’t mind a good back and forth discussion/“argument” if it’s respectful, and do July best to uphold that on my side as well. I have run across a couple individuals here who were believers but violated their own professed convictions constantly when calling me out. To me that is hypocritical and I did not pull any punches in saying so.

I do my best not to offend but occasionally get a little wrapped up in the hostility that creeps into these anonymous debates where a human face isn’t before us. For that I am genuinely sorry.

At the end of the day this is the internet and we shouldn’t take ourselves or especially it too seriously.

Amen

Then, "We", also have the other thief.

God does reveal Himself through His creation and circumstances to those who have eyes to see and ears to hear. He amazes me every time I take the time to consider Him in what is all around.

"He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him."
- Jesus.
John 14:21

All the same, He manifests the specifics through His Word. This is why He inspired it, preserved it and circulated it. His disciples published it wherever they went. They did as Jesus did in speaking from the O.T.
He was constantly pointing to the Scripture. Example of a common phrase,

John 7:38
"He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.39
(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)"

One if the Holy Spirit's ministries once Christ ascended, was to confirm the teaching and preaching of the disciples with miracles that were evidence to the audience. You know this, of course, because the Scriptures tell us. Once the unbelieving Roman "church fathers" wrote historical accounts, the books were hand copied and circulated among the churches.
This was a very important ministry that was established in the O.T. by the Scribes as it was after. Since these were published, that which was obviously miraculous was no longer necessary to give credence to the messages.

Today we have a more sure Word of prophecy than even that which Moses heard audibly upon the mountain where he met with God.
Our confidence in Christ comes from His written record .2 Peter 1:18, 19

"And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:"

"If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

I John 5:9...

Aren't we are truly blessed to have even more sure Word of God recorded for us to read.
☕ 🙂 👍📖

As you said, you can't force someone into belief, not can you badger or harass them into it either. I think the best you can do is give them a reason to think you have something they might want. Bibles are widely available throughout most countries, certainly North America, and churches too. Its not a lack of access that is keeping people away. If Christians really want to do as the Bible says, they should look to their conduct more than their preaching. A "Christian" who behaves badly is not only not going to win any converts, he will actively discourage any possible conversion. How do you think God would feel about that? Many, many Christians would be much farther ahead to make no mention of their religion until such a time that they could conduct themselves in a manner that at the very least won't turn people off.

I'm not as old as some here, but there are a few things I've learned over the years. People who simply are trying to live up to the teachings of Christianity are usually good people, and nice to be around. But, if you meet someone who leads with their religion, making sure you know from the get go that they are Christians and taking every opportunity to remind you of it, there is something wrong. I've seen it too many times, growing up in church and around religious people. In person or online, when i run into one of these folks the alarm bells go off.

My point was that Jesus as well as the apostles regularly used scripture (Old Testament) to sort of “bible beat” people, especially the Pharisees. Peter called Paul’s writing scripture. I think we still stand on the authority of scripture. How do we follow Christ without following his word? For example, considering the application of scripture in regard to marriage. Maybe I’m too simple minded in my approach.

I find hope and comfort in Proverbs 3 vs 5-6. Trust the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make your paths straight.

I have a feeling this post suffers a good bit in its bias and interpretation.

Yeah, Jesus quoted scripture to people who already accepted the authority of the Old Testament. But when He spoke to unbelievers like the woman at the well, the rich young ruler, Pilate, and the thief on the cross, Jesus wasn’t firing OT verses at em’. And Paul wasn’t quoting from the OT when he was speaking to the Athenians...but attempted to find common ground with them, even quoting their own poets and recognizing their “unknown God” beliefs...in order to connect them with the reality of the one true God and the truth of Jesus’ resurrection.

Thanks, I think of, that, "Unknown god ", passage often.

Such indignation about experiences with self-righteous people is understandable. Of course - any such choice is your and yours alone. The amusing part has to do with your reaction to people "cramming all their believer crap down my throat". How does that happen - how does one enable someone else to do that? I'm well into the old bracket and find that no one ever has been able to cram any ideology into me.

The men and women who actually knew Jesus personally and chose to follow Him...like Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, James, Andrew, Mary, Martha, and Paul...followed Him without ‘the Bible’. They received salvation without reading ‘any’ New Testament documents. And they were the men and women whose faith laid the groundwork for the evangelization of the entire world.
Some seem to think that Christianity depends upon the Bible. I don’t. Christianity would still be true even if every Bible and manuscript in the world were non-existent.

Maybe you need to work on your feelings

All I know for sure is: I died and have abode in heaven since the day Dad hauled that last Holstien milk cow to the sale yard. And then I reached the highest glory of Heaven the day my wife agreed to walk down the aisle.

If there is anything better than I have experienced in this life, I could not stand it.

If there is a Hell, it would mean I was stuck with my nose in a cow's flank and a milk pail between my knees while a cold, slimy, green, wet, schitt covered tail slapped me across the face again and again.

I am very satisfied with what this life has granted and have no fear of eternal death.

Nobody is cramming anything down your throat. It is merely being pointed out that there are problems with faith as a foundation for belief, as there are problems with all of our 'holy books.'

You either see that or you don't. If you don't see it or understand....too bad, just enjoy your faith.

This what works gets us.

Well, the language wasn't mine originally. I copied that from jag's post. In any event, it is not that the ideology took. It's just that there are certain people in life whose proselytizing I felt compelled to endure, such as my mom until her recent passing.

Rick's place is interesting, they is some softcore "stuff", down below.

If you don't like something, don't click.

Jesus Himself told His disicples before sending them out to stay and teach where they were invited to stay, and leave where there were not invited to stay, and shake the dust from their sandals as they were leaving, as a warning. He didn't tell anyone to do any throat-cramming ...

My religion is none of your MF'n business.

Fair enough, just don't try to make it ours either

If something is nobodies business, why post it on a public forum?

Who pointed the gun to make you click on the thread? Ha. Couldnt help yourself, huh? Like a moth pissing about an open flame.

Well said.

That being said, im not driven to investigate and post on the DU, and im not referring to you when i say this.

This. I just counted 18 threads on the front page i have never clicked on though several have been running for days.

Make that 17 since im going to go back to it and ooen the one entitled Rotten Tomatoes.

No worries. You get it or you don't. You will or you won't.

It’s pretty simple and easy to not open a thread if you’re not interested in the subject matter.

That is totally cool by me.

Pardon me if I’m incorrect, but why the animosity? No one asked about your religion; you’re free to come on a thread marked “Religion?” and you’re free not to. Can’t be that you’re surprised to see the topic once you open it. No one forced you to post.

This is baffling to me.

I appreciate your perspectives. You make some good points. I would agree that Christianity would still be true apart from the Bible. But I believe the scriptures are God breathed and given for a purpose. We wouldn't know of Jesus followers or the gospel so well apart from it. God could have passed on his truth through oral repetition, but that would be impractical. He has given his word that we might know him. I will look into your point about how scripture was used by Christ and others. I haven't heard that perspective. I appreciate the explanation.

Rickshaw, I appreciate your perspective as well. I agree with efw in that I also enjoy hearing and learning about the viewpoints of others regarding these things, especially when their responses are genuine and respectful. There are some smart men here, with some unique perspectives.

That is so true, that He gave us His Word that we might know Him. Without His written Word, what would we have?

Creation . ..that certainly speaks of His power and general attributes, just not specifics.

His spoken Words to the prophets of old. Those would long be changed and forgotten.

I can only judge by historical records, observation, and the correctly translated Bible.

History going back to what are refered to as the church "fathers," shows us much. As they had worldly wisdom and superficial knowledge of the Scriptures, yet they were unbelievers in Christ as Saviour. That is extra biblical history going back as far as we have records remaining. There's much about their false version of "christianity" that can be gleaned, but the most basic concept of salvation was lost amongst them.

The spoken words of the Father were given for those to hear at Jesus' baptism and later during His prayer. It was not a doctrinal directive. The audible answer was a witness from heaven to earth that this was truly the Son of God and that He was very pleased with Him.
How long would we know those very Words had they not been inspired and preserved in writing today?
Maybe a couple of hundred years? Your guess is as good as mine.

The good thing is that we don't have to guess.
We look at the writings of John, Peter, Luke, and Paul.
I never counted how many warnings and corrections were given, but it was quite a LOT. Those were directed to churches they established themselves as well as for our own admonision. The city of Corinth had a large church that went into heresay, unjustified divisions, and didn't correct the gross immorality. That was during Paul's ministry. Today there's more of the same rather than improvement and strength.

I think this needs stating because we need not be concerned that there's unbelievers that want us to shut up and keep the Words of our Lord to ourselves. I'm trying to encourage us to stand against the devil in spite of attacks from his people. They don't hesitate to take His name in vain, and that in a way that is beyond what I ever heard from the dregs of society in my youth. Of course they hate Christ and His people. That's OK if they hate me. I wasn't wanting to put them on my friend list anyway. 😄

Jesus said to His half brothers when they proded Him to go into harm's way....
John7:7
The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil."

To His friends,

John 15:18
"If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.
If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
"

Blessings to you,

Happy Camper

I don't pretend to answer for my friend Pat. I will say that I understand his response. I have met him, interacted with him and I think I understand him. I am sure I understand his perspective. We have no animosity toward the Almighty or his Son. I speak for myself when I say I am grateful for his salvation. With that being said, my heart is hurt for the things I have seen, and felt. I understand that life is not fair. I see that the devil walks to and fro, seeking whom he may devour. I do not understand. I know it is wrong to question, yet I have questions... I am no longer comfortable in church, but I pray often. Is it animosity? I hope not. But I know that God is good. I give him praise.

Im on the bow and confess now program.

Many say better late than never.

I say better late than too late.

The choice is, make HIM your Creator happy, or make Satan, your persecutor happy.

History has seen many who sold their soul to the Devil for power, riches and fame.

A lot of suckers sold out for a lot less.

Good point, I hadn't thought of "it", that way.

CT my question about animosity had to do with the threads on religion... not animosity toward religious people. I am with you and get that. And I have no personal issue w/ anyone in this thread including Pat.

God is not hard to find, but no man speaks for him.

I won't post a video,but, "You can't be a beacon if your light don' t shine."

Thanks I got all wordy but you got to the heart of the question

Well, that is an interesting question, in that a person has to wonder how we all know which individual is interested in what and which is not, and what each individual thinks is nobody else's business - or does not think that - until some topic is posted? It would seem that the best way to avoid inviting someone else into your business would be to ignore or avoid the threads that touch upon your business. Self-protection, eh?

It being a discussion forum, it seems odd for anyone who participates to complain about their private beliefs being questioned.

If god is omnipresent as some claim
Then it's in the air one breathes, every
cell and atom..What need is there to seek?
But there are believers who claim they can
detect the absence of God..so go figure.

If such God wants someone in his fold he
should be easily capable to usher then in
without any mere mortals trying to sell it.
OTOH, since the book of life is already written
one is either in their already or not..or is there
some way of doctoring a list already composed
by God?

And lastly , If Jesus was God why did he
have to first receive the holy spirit at such
late age before going into the wilderness?
Why was he without the spirit from birth ?

I disagree with your source. You must not be using a KJV Bible. The word "flesh" does not appear in that most Holy and correct Bible. Most likely your's is by Hoyt and Wesscot who were shills for the pope.. I strongly recommend two movies that will tell you much about the history of the Church. "A Lamp in the Dark" and "Tares Among The Wheat". Amazon has them to purchase or watch and many others. While I have not watched everything by Adullam Films, the ones I have watched are very good and to the point.

We are called to "rightly divide the word of Truth". Without the most correct Bible that is not possible and interestingly enough, the KJV is the ONLY Bible that verse is written in any Bible version. Jesus often spoke in parables and his followers often had problems with those in their understanding. When He and His disciples attended the Last Supper, He gave them bread and wine and also spoke as though that bread and wine were his body and blood. Most likely because that would be His reality very soon. But I do not believe He intended for them to believe that everytime they ate bread and drank wine they would be eating His flesh and drinking His blood, but also in at least one Gospel He tells us why He told them this: In remberance of Him as your "re-enforcement" confirms.

I will say this, I am taken aback and frankly appalled by you challenging my, or anyone's belief in the Bible over a trivial thing, and that particularly something you have wrong. You also ask about reality. In this life and this world there is NO reality. Of course, and to many, it would seem like it, particularly at the time of joys or sorrows, but it is not actual reality in this life. That comes in the next. And for those who ponder just what that will be, I would answer them tremendously and amazingly better than I, them, or anyone else on this temporary earth could ever imagine.

That's all that is required. I'll enjoy meeting you and Pat.

Please forgive my apparent disrespect; I say this sincerely. It clearly came off as challenging you and I didn’t mean it in that spirit; I take it for granted that you do respect the Bible and more importantly the God who inspired it. I see why you felt affronted and I apologize.

The translation of the Bible I used above was the ESV. I’d contend that we know Greek, Aramaic, and Hebrew and have scholars who can translate them and when seeking answers to questions such as these lean upon sources that are most literal in their translation.

Grace & peace to you and yours Ricky,

Efw

Gotcha friend.