Thursday is the day we celebrate the crucifixion of our Lord Jesus Christ. It is a solemn occasion. What man meant for evil, God did much good. It cost Him His life to share with us this most expensive gift of everlasting life. Remember that when He suffered, He did in our place, enduring the punishment that we deserve for our sins against Him. In exchange for the harsh torturous torments, He offers forgiveness. We can't add any of our worthless works to that. We can only receive the gift by trusting Him Who gives it.
Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
Here is the audio of the gospel of John. If you want to start at the betrayal of Jesus, chapter 18, go to 1:33:15
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus
It could have also been on Wednesday and still match scripture.
I cannot make 3 days and nights out of Friday afternoon to Sunday at daylight. I believe it was likely Wednesday.
It doesn't have to be Sunday daylight. The way days were counted then was a new day started at sundown. Jesus could have arisen any time after sundown Saturday and it would have been Sunday. That goes clear back to Gen 1 when the Bible says there was evening and there was morning the 1st, 2d, etc day. Evening came first because the new day started in the evening at sundown.
What throws everyone off is that there were 2 Sabbaths. John specifies that it was a special Sabbath or a High Day depending on the version. That was an extra Sabboth held on the lunar day of the celebration. The Passover Sabbath could have been any day of the week depending on the moon cycle that year. The crucifixion's date could be accurately calculated if we knew what year it happened.
It could have also been on Wednesday and still match scripture.
My calendar says tomorrow, Friday, is the day. My former Roman Catholic faith celebrates Good Friday. I've heard good evangelical pastors make a case for multiple Sabbaths and a Wednesday death. I tried to study this many times with an open mind. I have no argument over that Chuck.
The reason I keep coming back to Thursday, (if we can agree on Sunday as the first day of the week), is because of this.
Matthew 12:40 "For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."
I don't worry about anyone who disagrees on exactly what day of the week Christ died. It's important though that we come to believe what our friend posted in Romans 3 above about this witness:
"Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:.." I Corinthians 15
Then if you will count exactly how many times God inspired John to put the word "believe" in His book, you will be utterly blessed by the number.
It could have also been on Wednesday and still match scripture.
Wednesday is the correct day! Three days and three nights in the tomb starting with Wednesday evening ends at Saturday evening. The Scripture tells us they came early on the first day of the week, which would be Saturday right after sunset. Remember they went from sunset to sunset.
The crucifixion's date could be accurately calculated if we knew what year it happened.
don't know year of birth don't know year of death don't know length of ministry. don't know gospel authors. (opinions vary on all of above) buy somehow you all know he walked on water and rose from the dead ...tff. Can't figure out the everyday ordinary so you just jump to the extraordinary.
Star: Just curious. What drives an atheist to preach and advertise to believers? I can understand a person not believing something they cannot understand, but why preach to folks who believe there is a supernatural creative force they define as God?
"Then if you will count exactly how many times God inspired John to put the word "believe" in His book, you will be utterly blessed by the number."
This is possible over the weekend if you take 30-45 minutes per day. Simply read an old KJV and underline believes, believed, believeth.... Count how many times various forms of the same word are used in each chapter. Write that number at the top of every chapter. When you finish the book, let me know your totals PM. No Google cheating. Search engines will rob you of your blessing. You can read along as you listen to the Alexander Scourby video if you want. He read it in less time than that. I'll announce the correct answer Sunday evening and who got it right.
Star: Just curious. What drives an atheist to preach and advertise to believers? I can understand a person not believing something they cannot understand, but why preach to folks who believe there is a supernatural creative force they define as God?
It is human nature to hate God. They lack understanding and thus they rail against anything pertaining to God and what they are not able to understand.
Have you died and been resurrected? DO you have further knowledge concerning this subject and if so please share.
Nobody has any reliable knowledge and Scripture is lousy as a historical source, while theological waffle don't add up to jack.
It seems Peter had enough faith to walk on water at least briefly , but no Christian alive today is able to demonstrate such act with with their level of faith ...not one.
The mechanics of Jesus' death and resurrection don't matter. The only thing that matters is that he did it and we can have salvation because of it.
That said, a few scoffers might come to salvation through studying the Word and seeing how God's prophecies have been fulfilled. The Holy week is one of them. I've heard some say that the scriptures aren't accurate because of the women who bought spices to anoint Jesus' body. One book says they bought them before the Sabbath, another says they bought them after, an apparent discrepancy if you don't carefully read the word. To answer that one, you need to know that there were 2 Sabbaths. They bought the spices after the special Sabbath and before the regular Saturday Sabbath which makes both books correct. With a Wed. execution and a post sundown resurrection on Saturday, it gave them a full day on Friday to buy the spices. With a Thursday execution and an early morning Sunday resurrection, the Sabbaths would be back to back. It's possible that the priests allowed a short period between them to buy food and prepare for the regular Sabbath. We don't know that, however. It's just a possibility.
I think Thursday is correct. Definitely not Friday (how could there have been three days and nights in the tomb?). I had never thought about it until I heard an old radio program many years ago, where I heard Donald Grey Barnhouse explain why he thought it was Thursday, and I thought, wow, he's right!
Jesusâ Resurrection is what convinced His 1st century followers that Jesus was who He claimed to be. Anybody can make outrageous claims, but when Jesus rose from the dead it convinced His closest followers...who had all run away by that time...that He was who He claimed to be. And His resurrection has been convincing people ever since. The story of Jesus likely wouldnât even have been told apart from the resurrection. Apart from the resurrection no one likely would have documented the life of Jesus. Apart from the resurrection He was just another promise maker who couldnât keep His promises, apart from the resurrection He was just another wannabe rabbi who went off the rails. The reason we even know His name, the reason His name is proclaimed throughout the world today is not because of what He said and not because of what He taught, but because He rose from the dead. And His resurrection punctuated everything He taught and claimed about Himself.
Jesusâ Resurrection is what convinced His 1st century followers that Jesus was who He claimed to be. Anybody can make outrageous claims, but when Jesus rose from the dead it convinced His closest followers...who had all run away by that time...that He was who He claimed to be. And His resurrection has been convincing people ever since. The story of Jesus likely wouldnât even have been told apart from the resurrection. Apart from the resurrection no one likely would have documented the life of Jesus. Apart from the resurrection He was just another promise maker who couldnât keep His promises, apart from the resurrection He was just another wannabe rabbi who went off the rails. The reason we even know His name, the reason His name is proclaimed throughout the world today is not because of what He said and not because of what He taught, but because He rose from the dead. And His resurrection punctuated everything He taught and claimed about Himself.
When you get to know WHO God is, you will know WHY.
well then.....I'm gonna miss out.
Ingwe,
I have an open door policy for anyone who has sincere questions about God the Father and Jesus. PM anytime if that is better.
The first thing that I can recommend is taking me up on the gospel of John challenge above. If you don't have a King James Bible, there are both written and audio Bibles available at no cost here:
I'm not sure how much you know about Who God is, because we all are from many different backgrounds.
The disciples asked about the Father. Jesus pointed to the fact that if they knew Him, they knew the Father. He resembles the Father and has the same attributes. Four major attributes of God are:
1. Righteousness:. He is a righteous God Who has established in writing right from wrong. He is completely holy and Reverend. He is correct in all ways.
2. Justice:. When man violates God's laws, He is just to punish us. He created hell for the devil and his fallen angels/demons. Mankind can either be judged according to his works as compared to the law of perfection and be condemned guilty to the same destiny as Satan.........OR Be provided a judicial pardon from the Son. This is also justice. Why? The Son has satisfied the incredibly colossal requirements of suffering the punishment for everyone..... including you. The justice part is either imprisonment in hell to pay for our own sins for now on OR receiving the pardon because the payment was made in full. It is a choice. At the bottom is the only way the pardon can be obtained.
3. Love:. The ultimate display was how God took upon Himself the form of a man, yet without sin. He became the sinless sacrifice that was an acceptable payment for all sinners. He was punished in body AND soul (that which could not be seen), that we would be given the option of accepting the gift of forgiveness and everlasting life. See verse in post to you above.
"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." He loves us far more than we recognize.
4. Grace:. Undeserving favor from God. It is often displayed in His mercy to us in spite of our sins against Him. The pardon has been paid in FULL by the righteous man/God suffering and dying for us. Any additional payment by way of our money, good deeds, trying to live right, or sacraments negates that gift, making it null and void. It would be as God giving something so valuable and trying to show that we don't believe He could be so generous by tossing Him a filthy rag in exchange. Isaiah 64:6 says
"But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags."
God's kindness offers the gift and it's already paid for. We don't then add anything to it by works. We have the choice to receive it freely by making Jesus the Savior the Object of faith. All by Himself, He was wounded, tortured and supernaturally suffered beyond any man's comprehension. He willingly died that way out of love for you and for me. Now the choice is to take Him at His word. He can not lie. He says,
"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
Please read those promises again. This fact is what helped me to see something that I wasn't taught growing up. The gift was Not a down payment. It was paid in full and is totally through Jesus Christ.
No one has ever been able to explain to me why you "celebrate" the brutal killing of the man who was supposed to be your savior....
Some will bitch-whine that Jews murdered Jesus , then in the next post thank the Lord for sacrificing his son...that's the kind of stupid we find here.
Someone had to do the will of their god but they can't come to terms with it and hold 2000 yr old primitive tribal resentment mindsets....same with Judas and Satan , who simply do the will of the God who appointed them ..all to Gods plan , but CF Christians don't seem content.
Jesus asked if he could get off the hook but he got no reprieve from his father and Christians have been busy ever since pointing the finger of blame in true village idiot fashion.
No one has ever been able to explain to me why you "celebrate" the brutal killing of the man who was supposed to be your savior....
Some will bitch-whine that Jews murdered Jesus , then in the next post thank the Lord for sacrificing his son...that's the kind of stupid we find here.
Someone had to do the will of their god but they can't come to terms with it and hold 2000 yr old primitive tribal resentment mindsets....same with Judas and Satan , who simply do the will of the God who appointed them ..all to Gods plan , but CF Christians don't seem content.
Dude, if you're down with the Devil, that's up to you. I'm on God's team and Jesus died for me. You have no excuse not to accept His perfect sacrifice. You been toldt.
.. What drives an atheist to preach and advertise to believers?
Do you realize there are many who are not athiest while not being Christian?
Perhaps in your mind anyone who questions Christian claims is an atheist.. or perhaps just a pesky heretic who needs to be silenced.
Originally Posted by Hastings
.., but why preach to folks who believe there is a supernatural creative force they define as God?
Firstly , why preach personal supernatural Christian beliefs to others?
Since you believe in supernatural , Do you deem it possible pagan gods offer divine intervention on behalf of their true believers?
Originally Posted by Hastings
Star: I pointedly asked you the other day, what do you believe created the universe and you avoided the question
You avoided answering questions I asked you previous to yours, then think you deserve Answers?
That is not true. If you will go back to 3/28/21 And earlier you will see that I answered you about what and why I believe and admitted there is a lot I do not know. I don't think we "deserve" answers" but you joined the discussions and I asked you what do you believe. I don't mind telling you and others what I think the evidence shows and certainly don't mind telling you or anyone that I don't know something if I don't. So, are you atheist? Are you unsure if there is a supernatural force? Do you ever have a nagging feeling there may be some higher being(s) that we do not know? Your answer would be welcome and appreciated. If you wish to say it is a private matter, I understand.
Earlier you will see that I answered you about what and why I believe and admitted there is a lot I do not know..
You also don't know if Jesus really resurrected but you still believe.
So is it also possible pagan gods do intervene on behalf of true believers ? (even Without you knowing it) Can you think of any reason why such would not be possible ??
It's kinda funny how you believe things you don't know when it suits you...LoL.
Originally Posted by Hastings
.. So, are you atheist?
You already deemed me atheist Do you now doubt yourself?
Perhaps you should forsake convenience and examine how you arrive at your beliefs to see if the method is robust and reliable.
The god of the Bible is a harsh God. When Adam send God didn't just curse Adam and Eve he cursed the entire universe. Consider what he did at the time of Noah's flood when there were maybe as many as 25 billion people on the Earth. He saved 8. God made the rule that the wages of sin is death and no one's death is sufficient except his chosen one Jesus Christ of Nazareth. God gave the gift of his son and will be infinitely annoyed with those who reject his gift of his son. He will torture them for eternity.
Without the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, we're all doomed.
All those social justice types wanting fairness, they better be praying for Grace and Mercy. With fairness and justice, we're all doomed.
As to the sign of Jonah, three days in the belly of the fish. go study the Jubilee Passover. During that time, the 49th year of the Jubilee, it works out as written.
Although with the Jewish calendar and the speculated true date of His birth, it can get a bit complicated..
To me, if one believes the first sentance as stated, all is well. If not...
Earlier you will see that I answered you about what and why I believe and admitted there is a lot I do not know..
You also don't know if Jesus really resurrected but you still believe.
So is it also possible pagan gods do intervene on behalf of true believers ? (even Without you knowing it) Can you think of any reason why such would not be possible ??
It's kinda funny how you believe things you don't know when it suites you...LoL.
Its also kinda funny how people lay claim to "free speech" while totally ignoring the concept from which it came, along with Webster.
Look i hate to wade into a ârobustâ conversation. But the easiest way i can describe that there is in-fact a creator is that nature works perfectly without mans intervention. Design.
Any ideas why an intelligent design creator would put coconuts inconveniently high up out of reach and poison mushrooms at mans feet ..?
And lets not forget the ticking time bomb of the potentially fatal appendix.
And where's the intellegent design in children with cancer?
Great point. You are also a fine example of evolution, as there certainly isnât any indication of intelligent design as far as your concerned.
So where's your indisputable hard evidence of intelligent design? Why does your intellegent god, who gave everyone the gift of life, then kill children and infants?
So where's your indisputable hard evidence of intelligent design? Why does your intellegent god, who gave everyone the gift of life, then kill children and infants?
Man with his finite mind will NEVER fully understand an infinite God. Most humans do not really want that understanding anyways.
It's easier to hate what they will not (and cannot) understand to justify themselves.
Most people (ALL world views included) are really not tolerant of people with opinions other than theirs. They actually only are tolerant when itâs their opinion coming out of your mouth.
So where's your indisputable hard evidence of intelligent design? Why does your intellegent god, who gave everyone the gift of life, then kill children and infants?
Man with his finite mind will NEVER fully understand an infinite God. Most humans do not really want that understanding anyways.
It's easier to hate what they will not (and cannot) understand to justify themselves.
I'll take that as a you don't know but you're okay with it.
How can anyone hate something that doesn"t exist - I'm just pointing out one circumstance of the contradiction in the concept of god the loving creator. God works in mysterious ways is just a cop out for just such circumstances.
So where's your indisputable hard evidence of intelligent design? Why does your intellegent god, who gave everyone the gift of life, then kill children and infants?
Man with his finite mind will NEVER fully understand an infinite God. Most humans do not really want that understanding anyways.
It's easier to hate what they will not (and cannot) understand to justify themselves.
I'll take that as a you don't know but you're okay with it.
How can anyone hate something that doesn"t exist - I'm just pointing out one circumstance of the contradiction in the concept of god the loving creator. God works in mysterious ways is just a cop out for just such circumstances.
The reason you arenât a surgeon is because you are too dumb to understand surgery. Because you donât understand something, doesnât make it not exist.
I'll take that as a you don't know but you're okay with it.
The Bible says that "it's rains on the just and the unjust". Who are we to question God's actions and what He allows to happen? You might think you can, but your results will be the same as others. We cannot judge God. To do so is to put ourselves on His level.
Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
How can anyone hate something that doesn"t exist .
Good question, but many do exactly that nonetheless. BTW .... It only "doesn't exist" in the minds of those who would do this hating.
Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
I'm just pointing out one circumstance of the contradiction in the concept of god the loving creator. God works in mysterious ways is just a cop out for just such circumstances.
There are many aspects to God other than "the loving creator". You should ask Him these questions.
Jesus died and rose for ALL of us. It's a free gift, there for the taking. All you have to do is accept it. That fact that the large majority will refuse it shows how active Satan is in this world. BTW, in spite of all the cartoons, Satan will NOT be in charge in hell. He will be hell's principle inmate, not it's ruler.
You already deemed me atheist Do you now doubt yourself?
Perhaps you should forsake convenience and examine how you arrive at your beliefs to see if the method is robust and reliable.
I have not deemed you an atheist. In fact I'm suspecting you are not one, but I don't profess to be a mind reader. That you won't answer a very direct question "What do you believe" indicates to me that you are quite unsure of how everything you do know came into being. If so that makes 2 of us. I am "Christian" in the sense that I believe the Jews were chosen by a supernatural power for a purpose I don't fully yet understand. I believe John the Baptist and Jesus were sent by that supernatural power to give a message to mankind. Obviously that message was rejected and usurped by much of today's "Christian" organizations as a for profit and power scheme. So why don't you, a man that injects himself into every religious discussion and ridicules Folks that are attempting to discern God's will tell us, what do you believe?
Some people like to ask questions but not answer them. Some people participate in a conversation to gain understanding or input knowledge. Some only participate to try to tear down. Some are just the satan.
some people might get the idea that it's good for us that there is a satan. look at the deaths on both sides during wwi and ww2 plus all the other wars in history. lot'sa killing going on. the invention of satan allowed the good god not to be to blame for all of this. god remains good while satan takes the blame. a pretty good story line actually. anyways if god sent his son and not his daughter then why? lot's of intracacies to the story lines. but who benefited? why, the high priests and their kindred usually. i mean why propagate a story line when there's no benefit for doing so?
would any christian exchange his soul for a heathen's in order to save the heathen and thusly sacrifice his own self to hell? not many i would gesture. so, is christianity a thing of self-interest? the buddhists might want to know.,
These Bible based threads always have a visitor or two who's "soul purpose" in life is to falsely accuse the Prince of Life of injustice. When I read my Bible that reminds me of one of the main enemies of our Lord. Now who would that be?
I start the thread about a most important holy day and historical fact. Along comes the regular trolls that contribute nothing but mindless discord among the brethren. I have no problem with unbelievers with sincere questions as you can read from yesterday. However, one thing comes to mind when the devil's kids show up.
James 4:7 "Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you."
I hope you all have a blessed day..... except for reprobates. I was warned, " Shouldest thou help the ungodly, and love them that hate the LORD? therefore is wrath upon thee from before the LORD."
I I Chronicles 19:2
To all else, a toast with a big cup of your favorite coffee. â đ đ
These Bible based threads always have a visitor or two who's "soul purpose" in life is to falsely accuse the Prince of Life of injustice.
If anyone had a reason to step away from believing in God because of injustice, it was Jesus. The man who stands at the center of all that Christians believe was treated extraordinarily unfairly, and was unjustly executed.
Scoffers like these also followed Jesus around. He confronted them constantly. Many passages in the gospels are his responses to them. A few came to believe in him but most did not. One of his classics is in Mark 9. Some Jews had accused him of using the power of Satan to cast some demons out of a man. Jesus had used the power of the Holy Spirit do it. He told them that you could sin against him or against God and be forgiven, but if you called the Holy Spirit evil, that was an eternal sin. There is no forgiveness for that. He told them to their faces that they were going to hell with no possibility of salvation. He didn't mince his words. I wish I had even a tiny fraction of his ability to show scoffers their errors but I don't.
These Bible based threads always have a visitor or two who's "soul purpose" in life is to falsely accuse the Prince of Life of injustice.
If anyone had a reason to step away from believing in God because of injustice, it was Jesus. The man who stands at the center of all that Christians believe was treated extraordinarily unfairly, and was unjustly executed.
Isn't that the truth.đâ
As soon as I hit the post tab that same thought came to mind. Jesus was called names, accused falsely, tortured and suffered injustice......yet offers a gift larger than anyone can ever earn. Thats more love than I have.
Then there's some so evil that they turn around and blame Him for all the evils in the world.
Scoffers like these also followed Jesus around. He confronted them constantly. Many passages in the gospels are his responses to them. A few came to believe in him but most did not. One of his classics is in Mark 9. Some Jews had accused him of using the power of Satan to cast some demons out of a man. Jesus had used the power of the Holy Spirit do it. He told them that you could sin against him or against God and be forgiven, but if you called the Holy Spirit evil, that was an eternal sin. There is no forgiveness for that. He told them to their faces that they were going to hell with no possibility of salvation. He didn't mince his words. I wish I had even a tiny fraction of his ability to show scoffers their errors but I don't.
That passage, even as a little boy, always shook me up.
This is why I warn those that use God's good Name in vain. I fear that God might just give up on them sooner or later. When one of us shares the gospel, I fear that like Romans 1 describes that it will be too late. I even have read someone referring to three men as the "Trinity" . I never even heard this kind of talk in my youth. It's getting worse, not better.
Pain and suffering and injustice in the world is an emotional and powerful and moving argument when you hear people make it, especially when itâs based on their own personal experience...I totally get it. I understand...the best I can...the emotion and the question in light of the awfulness. The problem of pain and suffering and injustice in the world has been a problem for many in maintaining faith in God. Many people have stepped back from God because of their inability to reconcile a good and loving God with the pain and suffering and injustice in the world. Some people leverage pain and suffering and injustice in the world to argue against God, or to argue against oneâs personal relationship with God. They even commandeer other peopleâs pain and suffering and injustice to build a case against God. But pain and suffering and injustice in the world...for many people...actually ends up being a path which leads to God. Extraordinary pain and suffering and injustice in the world often leads to extraordinary confidence in God. For many itâs a reminder that they actually need God. Christianity has never made an argument for Godâs existence or involvement based on a world where bad things never happen to good people. Jesusâ early followers paid dearly for their faith, they were treated incredibly unjustly, they were persecuted for believing something, many were tortured and killed, and yet they embraced God. Pain and suffering and injustice in the world are not arguments against the existence of God; to me, they are evidence that we need God, that we need His grace, that we His need mercy.
'Trinity' is an English word for the concept of three. The term Holy Trinity is commonly used and we all know what it means. The concept can be seen in the Bible but it's not written in those terms. There's nothing to using the word trinity to describe 3 of something as long as it isn't used to relate them to the Lord.
God won't ever give up on anyone unless they turn their back on him. There's no sin that he won't forgive other than the one against the Spirit. Keep this in mind:
Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
I've seen this passage used many times but they always skip the 1st step - 'foreknew'. That means that God knows from the creation who will answer and those are the ones who get the call. We all have free choice but God knows what that choice will be. He won't call anyone who he knows won't answer. If he foreknows that a person will answer, it won't affect their salvation if they use his name in vain. He will forgive them. He doesn't want us to sin, of course, but he will forgive it.
"But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips."
I've been glad many times through harsh suffering that God recorded this for us.
The way the term trinity was used was in a mocking manner of derision with relation of three Christian members. It doesn't matter to them. What matters is that God might just reject the rejects that speak of Him that way.
I know that God can forgive all sins. Jesus paid for them all, including using His name in vain and sins of those who rejected Him. When someone goes so far as to attribute to men the term we use to describe the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, John 5:7, IMHO they are pushing the envelope and should be corrected that others may fear. There's absolutely no fear of God's judgement on this forum with some. Therefore the blasphemies have become more common even the short time I've been a member. I doubt if the socialist forums are this bad. People don't need to see that garbage. Adults should use at least a small amount of self control. When they don't, it shows hard their heart has gotten.
I grew up with no teaching on this topic that I recall. Here's one sermon that covers the topic pretty well.
Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
I've seen this passage used many times but they always skip the 1st step - 'foreknew'. That means that God knows from the creation who will answer and those are the ones who get the call. We all have free choice but God knows what that choice will be. He won't call anyone who he knows won't answer.
Foreknew and predestined are two very different words. I don't see predestined as free choice. Free choice takes the glory of our salvation out of God's hands and puts it into our own.
If He doesn't call you, how can you answer? If you don't get the call, you are predestined not to and He foreknew that.
I like the story of Lazarus. He was dead 3 days. Really dead. He stunketh. He could not call on the Lord for help, nor did he have any choice whatsoever in his future. Jesus called him. This is exactly the state of mankind.
You already deemed me atheist Do you now doubt yourself?
Perhaps you should forsake convenience and examine how you arrive at your beliefs to see if the method is robust and reliable.
I have not deemed you an atheist. In fact I'm suspecting you are not one, but I don't profess to be a mind reader. That you won't answer a very direct question "What do you believe" indicates to me that you are quite unsure of how everything you do know came into being. If so that makes 2 of us. I am "Christian" in the sense that I believe the Jews were chosen by a supernatural power for a purpose I don't fully yet understand. I believe John the Baptist and Jesus were sent by that supernatural power to give a message to mankind. Obviously that message was rejected and usurped by much of today's "Christian" organizations as a for profit and power scheme. So why don't you, a man that injects himself into every religious discussion and ridicules Folks that are attempting to discern God's will tell us, what do you believe?
"After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep." (1Corinthians 15:6)
With a docket of witnesses like that, I'm sure there would be considered a vast preponderance of evidence. I was a prosecutor in court for 14 years after 30 years as a police officer. The phrase air tight case comes to mind.
"After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep." (1Corinthians 15:6)
With a docket of witnesses like that, I'm sure there would be considered a vast preponderance of evidence. I was a prosecutor in court for 14 years after 30 years as a police officer. The phrase air tight case comes to mind.
If you were a prosecutor you know that hearsay evidence is not admissible. None of these 500 people testified (or at least none were mentioned by name).
They SAW HIM. That is not HEAR SAY. They could have been subpoenaed if it came to trial, but with a list that large, I would be looking for a plea resolution at the least.
It could have also been on Wednesday and still match scripture.
Wednesday is the correct day! Three days and three nights in the tomb starting with Wednesday evening ends at Saturday evening. The Scripture tells us they came early on the first day of the week, which would be Saturday right after sunset. Remember they went from sunset to sunset.
That would be true by our reckoning.
But the Jews, Romans, and early Christians did not understand the concept of "zero." So they would have counted the "zero-eth" day as the first day.
So crucifixion on Thursday would have made Thursday the first day, Friday the second, and Saturday the third. Saturday night would have been the third night.
By the way, does anyone know why it took three days and nights? Jonah spending three days inside a whale would seem to be an almost irrelevant precedent.
They SAW HIM. That is not HEAR SAY. They could have been subpoenaed if it came to trial, but with a list that large, I would be looking for a plea resolution at the least.
There were a number of meetings recorded with Jesus and His disciples after the resurrection. He not only showed physical evidence, but witnesses gave detailed affidavits that held up to scrutiny from His worst enemies for two thousand years.
Many landmark cases have been decided on far less physical and eye witness testimonies.
They SAW HIM. That is not HEAR SAY. They could have been subpoenaed if it came to trial, but with a list that large, I would be looking for a plea resolution at the least.
THEY (the 500) did not say they saw Jesus. PAUL said that THEY saw Jesus. That's hearsay. You would have been laughed out of court unless you produced at least some of the 500 and gotten the story from "the horse's mouth," as they say.
As a separate subject, why did Jesus appear to only these 500, assuming he did. If he wanted people to believe in him, why not appear to everyone in Palestine?
There's no sin that he won't forgive other than the one against the Spirit. Keep this in mind:
Check Revelation 14. If one receives the mark of the beast he will experience torment forever. No forgiveness.
There's evidence that to get the mark you'll have to deny Christ and bow to the anti-christ. That's the sin, not just having a tattoo on your hand. There are plenty of people today who are doing just that. Those will be the end days and it's a 1 time deal, a final choice before the grand finale. It's not the eternal sin described by Jesus in Mark 9, though.
It could have also been on Wednesday and still match scripture.
Wednesday is the correct day! Three days and three nights in the tomb starting with Wednesday evening ends at Saturday evening. The Scripture tells us they came early on the first day of the week, which would be Saturday right after sunset. Remember they went from sunset to sunset.
That would be true by our reckoning.
But the Jews, Romans, and early Christians did not understand the concept of "zero." So they would have counted the "zero-eth" day as the first day.
So crucifixion on Thursday would have made Thursday the first day, Friday the second, and Saturday the third. Saturday night would have been the third night.
By the way, does anyone know why it took three days and nights? Jonah spending three days inside a whale would seem to be an almost irrelevant precedent.
The Jews believed that after death, your spirit hung around for 3 days before going off to heaven or hell. You weren't truly dead until the 3d day. Jesus needed to be buried for 3 days before they'd believe he was really dead. He did the same thing with Lazarus, waiting 3 days before showing up to resurrect him.
They SAW HIM. That is not HEAR SAY. They could have been subpoenaed if it came to trial, but with a list that large, I would be looking for a plea resolution at the least.
THEY (the 500) did not say they saw Jesus. PAUL said that THEY saw Jesus. That's hearsay. You would have been laughed out of court unless you produced at least some of the 500 and gotten the story from "the horse's mouth," as they say. ....
Some (like Antlers) even fabricate their own wild "truth" by claiming Paul saw Jesus. which is the exact opposite of scripture. ***** Acts 9: (nasb)
3 Now as he was traveling, it happened that he was approaching Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him; 4 and he fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, âSaul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?â 5 And he said, âWho are You, Lord?â And He said, âI am Jesus whom you are persecuting, 6 but get up and enter the city, and (I)it will be told to you what you must do.â 7 The men who traveled with him stood speechless, hearing the voice but seeing no one. 8 Saul got up from the ground, and though his eyes were open, he could see nothing ; and leading him by the hand, they brought him into Damascus. 9 And for three days he was without sight, and neither ate nor drank.
**** btw, Some Christians like Hastings , have called BS on Pauls 'voice of Jesus' experience, suggesting it was all brought on by schizophrenia.
Come on Antlers back up your bold claim that Paul saw Jesus ...LoL. The "I am not a Christian" waffler Antlers is gunna have to perform a miracle to pull that one off...
There you have it the NO SUBSTANCE waffler has got his usual Nothing ...
Starman: What do you believe? Do you think there is an entity that was a creative force? Personally I believe there has to be something and some creative power beyond human comprehension. What do you believe? Come on, share your thoughts with us.
They SAW HIM. That is not HEAR SAY. They could have been subpoenaed if it came to trial, but with a list that large, I would be looking for a plea resolution at the least.
THEY (the 500) did not say they saw Jesus. PAUL said that THEY saw Jesus. That's hearsay. You would have been laughed out of court unless you produced at least some of the 500 and gotten the story from "the horse's mouth," as they say.
As a separate subject, why did Jesus appear to only these 500, assuming he did. If he wanted people to believe in him, why not appear to everyone in Palestine?
How do you know what "they" saw or didn't see? Or how do you know what "they" said?
One day we will all know for sure, believers and non-believers alike. One would tell the other "I told you so." That would be the non-believer and it won't happen. The believers will move away with no judgement for the non-believers, knowing the faithful were right all along.
Christ will forgive them all, He, only, will be able to say "I told you so".
Starman: .. Do you think there is an entity that was a creative force? Personally I believe there has to be something and some creative power beyond human comprehension....
I don't have compulsion to pretend to know. and I don't have to buy what others claim is the truth based on highly subjective faith. Just too many lies, distortions, exaggerations, hidden agendas, etc. based on highly unreliable scant detail adulterated ancient source scripture.
You believe divine intervention helped Israel, but you don't really know...you believe in the Resurrection but don't really know...but for some reason you can't say if pagan gods helped the Romans because "you don't know"
If you can't see your double standard then you have the problem not me...perhaps you believe there is one god but you don't know. but such belief prevents you from giving equal consideration to the possibility that pagan gods can help true believers.
Rome prospered and won a lot of wars and they believed their gods helped them or does only your God do such things?
We already know you selectively believe things you don't actually know...so to me your beliefs are flimsy and inane and dont mean jack.
They SAW HIM. That is not HEAR SAY. They could have been subpoenaed if it came to trial, but with a list that large, I would be looking for a plea resolution at the least.
THEY (the 500) did not say they saw Jesus. PAUL said that THEY saw Jesus. That's hearsay. You would have been laughed out of court unless you produced at least some of the 500 and gotten the story from "the horse's mouth," as they say.
As a separate subject, why did Jesus appear to only these 500, assuming he did. If he wanted people to believe in him, why not appear to everyone in Palestine?
How do you know what "they" saw or didn't see? Or how do you know what "they" said?
I don't pretend to know what they saw or said.
But radical claims require radical evidence, and the Resurection would have been a radical claim 2,000 years ago. If I went to the police station and said, "500 people saw Ringman rob a bank," the cops would want to know who those people were and would want to talk with them. In fact, Corinthians doesn't even say that Paul knew who the 500 were.
Starman: .. Do you think there is an entity that was a creative force? Personally I believe there has to be something and some creative power beyond human comprehension....
I don't have compulsion to pretend to know. and I don't have to buy what others claim is the truth based on highly subjective faith. Just too many lies, distortions, exaggerations, hidden agendas, etc. based on highly unreliable scant detail adulterated ancient source scripture.
You believe divine intervention helped Israel, but you don't really know...you believe in the Resurrection but don't really know...but for some reason you can't say if pagan gods helped the Romans because "you don't know"
If you can't see your double standard then you have the problem not me...perhaps you believe there is one god but you don't know. but such belief prevents you from giving equal consideration to the possibility that pagan gods can help true believers.
Rome prospered and won a lot of wars and they believed their gods helped them or does only your God do such things?
We already know you selectively believe things you don't actually know...so to me your beliefs are flimsy and inane and dont mean jack.
...radical claims require radical evidence, and the Resurrection would have been a radical claim 2,000 years ago.
Yep. And when He did rise from the dead, that was the start of it all. A small band of cultists in the anus of an empire, whose leader had been crucified after being rejected by His own people, survived, and then thrived in light of tremendous resistance. And it was eventually embraced by the very empire that had tried to eradicate it...!
Karen Armstrong is an author who is no friend to evangelical Christianity. She wrote a book called âFields of Blood: Religion and the History of Violenceâ. She said, âYet against all odds, by the third century, Christianity had become a force to be reckoned with. We still do not really understand how this came about.â
Whether a historian, an anthropologist, or even a skeptic with an agenda...itâs hard to explain. But something did happen in the 1st century that caused Christianity to spread like wildfire. Iâm good accepting the separate and independent accounts of those closest to the actual events. People like Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, James (the brother of Jesus), Peter, Paul, give ample testimony for why Jesusâ movement overcame the religious and political power structures that had tried to destroy it...!
Between the Jewish Temple and the Roman Empire itâd seem that this small cult shouldâve been squashed and buried alongside Jesus. But nope...! Nowadays, some of the 2.5 billion Christians worldwide are takinâ pics of the ruins of the Jewish Temple Mount and others are takinâ pics of the ruins of the Forum in Rome.
You all tangled up in Biblical superstition and mythology...sad.
Which superstition and mythology exactly do you speak of the satan?
Jesus spoke of Satan, acknowledging his existence.
He knew that he entered Judas Iscariot to conspire against Christ with His enemies to carry out the crucifixion. See John 18:5, 19:11
In Matthew 4 Jesus fasted for forty day and was tempted by Satan at His weakest point. ...yet WON in that severe temptation and spiritual warfare.
Satan thought that he could defeat his God by Roman execution. However, The Father turned it around and purchased freedom forever and everlasting life for ALL through His Son Who willingly gave up His life, only to take it back again......DEFEATING THE DEVIL!!!
You all tangled up in Biblical superstition and mythology...sad.
Which superstition and mythology exactly do you speak of the satan?
The one you get your imaginary Satan from What else ?..đ
Walking my dog will get you to 3rd base shortly But I had to save this knowing your propensity to edit your posts
You have a solid record of editing posts after the fact . That fragile ego and all. Now on to further growth
Only 2 days and we have made real progress. We learned you have no tolerance for people with views you donât hold. We learned you hate Christians.
Now we learned you fight your own straw men assuming what others think and you are ignorant of a simple definition. The Hebrew for Satan is ×ץ×× (hasatan). The prefix × (ha) means "the" which identifies the noun ץ×× (satan) is a noun and not a proper name and should therefore be translated as "the adversaryâ Or âthe accuserâ.
Now letâs land the plane. Multiple people have asked you what your world view is. Itâs immaterial. ID, Atheist, Big Bang/abiogenesis/evolution , your religion of choice, it doesnât matter. Every world view has unanswerable questions. Questions that no one can answer with indisputable hard proof. Yet you consistently want to hold Christians to a standard you can never uphold for your own world view. That makes you a hypocrite.
You might want to reflect on why it bothers you that someone just doesnât think like you. It really is unhealthy.
So to review We learned you have no tolerance for people with views you donât hold. We learned you hate Christians. We learn you are ignorant on scripture and wrestle your own straw men. And you are a hypocrite.
Every human falls short. Maybe learn to actually be tolerant of others views. Maybe try to be a better human and build people up, instead of trying to tear them down. Or at the very least since other peoples views vex you so much , try ignoring. The old saying if you canât say anything nice, say nothing at all.
Now you are free of me. Iâm done with you. Have a blessed life.
You are too slippery for me. I'm not getting an answer. I give up, but I'm guessing you are not atheist. I somewhat agree that a lot of beliefs are not logical. If I ever need a partner in crime I'm calling you, you will never confess what you know.
âŚ.". Who are we to question God's actions and what He allows to happen? You might think you can, but your results will be the same as others. We cannot judge God. To do so is to put ourselves on His level.
So you accept the death of children as godâs doing. Those people praying for these children might seem to be somewhat disrespectful of godâs will, donât you think?
Originally Posted by SuperCub
Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
How can anyone hate something that doesn"t exist .
Good question, but many do exactly that nonetheless. BTW .... It only "doesn't exist" in the minds of those who would do this hating.
How on earth do you derive hate as the driving intention for someone asking questions? I hope you donât treat your children this way, but if youâre anything like the catholics we used to have living down the road, you probably do. Just because you canât answer a question itâs no need to project a false perspective of those asking the questions.
Again, you asked me directly about athiests. What makes you think I have the answer on atheism mindset?
Originally Posted by Hastings
You will never confess what you know
I already told you, I do not have a compulsion to pretend to know , unless you want me to invent a universe theory just to make your small mind happy.
The fact you believe things you don't actually know is sure sign of stupidity. The fact you have double standards by only believing certain things you don't know, shows your bias.
Who knows how much BS you told in 30yrs of LE. considering cops are known to lie with regularity and are so distrusted by large part of society. Being Christian and LE means you have a huge uphill battle in gaining credibility.
How on earth do you derive hate as the driving intention for someone asking questions?
Notice how Christians act like candy ass gays, blacks and Jews and paint people as 'haters' when convenient?...Im sure some miss old days when they could kill heretics or non-converters on a frenzied whim.
I've not heard a God complain about any hate. it could be Cub is hearing voices in his head saying such , we do have those types here.
Hastings just needs to be honest and admit his God does not allow him to think pagan gods would help true believers...he's affraid of wrathful consequences by giving other gods credit.
There were 11 who saw Jesus and we know their names. They were convinced enough to suffer torture and die horribly in defense of that they knew to be true. Nobody dies a cruel death for what he knows to be a lie.
But we know Christians bought a lie at Jonestown and drank the spiked Kool-Aid with faith.
And how many suckers have been told you gotta go into battle and get killed or seriously maimed for "God and country" some guys suffered horrible slow agonizing deaths by being stuck in no man's land sometimes for days.
But we know Christians bought a lie at Jonestown and drank the spiked Kool-Aid with faith.
Jonestown wasn't Christian. That guy was a so called pastor, but the Devil was in full control of him and that entire operation.
It's the fruit that defines the plant. If it produces death, it's not of the Lord.
There were two trees in the Garden. Go study them. The root of one was life, the other, death.
The root of Jonestown was death as evidenced by it's fruit.
DF
Johnstown was the establishment of a Christ hating Atheist. He was of his father the devil and did his works. Just like others of his ilk, the devilish accusers try to pin their OWN on Christ and His followers. Tell me who this Jim Jones is most like? https://youtu.be/-WYEbvUQZtU
From noon until three in the afternoon darkness came over all the land. 46 About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, âEli, Eli, lema sabachthani?â (which means âMy God, my God, why have you forsaken me?â).
When some of those standing there heard this, they said, âHeâs calling Elijah.â
Immediately one of them ran and got a sponge. He filled it with wine vinegar, put it on a staff, and offered it to Jesus to drink. The rest said, âNow leave him alone. Letâs see if Elijah comes to save him.â
And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.
At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs after Jesusâ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.
When the centurion and those with him who were guarding Jesus saw the earthquake and all that had happened, they were terrified, and exclaimed, âSurely he was the Son of God!â
It's well known that Jones was a member of the US Communist party and heavily studied Marx, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, and others of that type. He was evil from the beginning. Jesus said that many false teachers would come in his name and Jones was classic example. Any real Christian would have seen right through him.
It's well known that Jones was a member of the US Communist party and heavily studied Marx, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, and others of that type. He was evil from the beginning. Jesus said that many false teachers would come in his name and Jones was classic example. Any real Christian would have seen right through him.
Yes, Jesus did warn of false teachers coming in his name and I believe one quickly showed up. He wrote several letters and claimed to have met Jesus and later claimed to have conversations with Jesus and even went on an excursion into 3rd heaven.
It's well known that Jones was a member of the US Communist party and heavily studied Marx, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, and others of that type. He was evil from the beginning. Jesus said that many false teachers would come in his name and Jones was classic example. Any real Christian would have seen right through him.
Yes, Jesus did warn of false teachers coming in his name and I believe one quickly showed up. He wrote several letters and claimed to have met Jesus and later claimed to have conversations with Jesus and even went on an excursion into 3rd heaven.
They SAW HIM. That is not HEAR SAY. They could have been subpoenaed if it came to trial, but with a list that large, I would be looking for a plea resolution at the least.
THEY (the 500) did not say they saw Jesus. PAUL said that THEY saw Jesus. That's hearsay. You would have been laughed out of court unless you produced at least some of the 500 and gotten the story from "the horse's mouth," as they say.
As a separate subject, why did Jesus appear to only these 500, assuming he did. If he wanted people to believe in him, why not appear to everyone in Palestine?
How do you know what "they" saw or didn't see? Or how do you know what "they" said?
The 500 who Jesus appeared to were all saved Christians. He appeared as evidence to them to give them the courage and the support they needed to spread the word. As for the non-believers, Jesus specifically addressed that in his earlier parable about Lazarus and the rich man. They had died, Lazarus to heaven (called the bosom of Abraham) and the rich man to hell. The rich man begged Abraham to send someone from the dead to his living brothers to tell them how much he was suffering and to avoid joining him in hell. Abraham said that even if some returned from the dead, they wouldn't believe. Jesus was talking about himself. Even if he appeared after the resurrection to the unsaved, they wouldn't believe in him. That's how people are. .
It's well known that Jones was a member of the US Communist party and heavily studied Marx, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, and others of that type. He was evil from the beginning. Jesus said that many false teachers would come in his name and Jones was classic example. Any real Christian would have seen right through him.
Yes, Jesus did warn of false teachers coming in his name and I believe one quickly showed up. He wrote several letters and claimed to have met Jesus and later claimed to have conversations with Jesus and even went on an excursion into 3rd heaven.
John the Revelator?
You throwing him under the bus?
DF
Not at all, John was the real thing. In Revelation 2 he reported Jesus' words commending the church at Ephesus for putting Paul on the road. In a letter to Timothy Paul verified that the churches in Asia (Ephesus included) were turned away from him. Paul messed up when he was found out and ran off into the Roman witness protection program. Finally Nero came along and went crazy and Paul got killed in the deal if we are to believe tradition.
It's well known that Jones was a member of the US Communist party and heavily studied Marx, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, and others of that type. He was evil from the beginning. Jesus said that many false teachers would come in his name and Jones was classic example. Any real Christian would have seen right through him.
Yes, Jesus did warn of false teachers coming in his name and I believe one quickly showed up. He wrote several letters and claimed to have met Jesus and later claimed to have conversations with Jesus and even went on an excursion into 3rd heaven.
John the Revelator?
You throwing him under the bus?
DF
Not at all, John was the real thing. In Revelation 2 he reported Jesus' words commending the church at Ephesus for putting Paul on the road. In a letter to Timothy Paul verified that the churches in Asia (Ephesus included) were turned away from him. Paul messed up when he was found out and ran off into the Roman witness protection program. Finally Nero came along and went crazy and Paul got killed in the deal if we are to believe tradition.
Ok. I see what youâre saying. Donât necessarily agree, but thanks for the clarification.
Paul had his history, but redemption is the Easter story.
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