I could use a little advice regarding the old man. I know many of you have dealt with similar situations so I thought I would illicit the collective opinions of my fellow ‘fire members and friends here.
For years and years now – a decade or more - my father has been extremely difficult to deal with. He is verbally abusive to my mother and though he has never struck her, it’s a wonder she never left him. His verbal abuse and yelling are almost constant and he is chock full of vitriol. I’m currently visiting the folks and the other night there was yet another yelling battle where he repeated yelling each of three inane statements approximately 23 times. Over and over and over. It was sad to see and hear. My mother has been an absolute saint dealing with it all and she’s very sharp, but she resents the fact that she hasn’t had much of a life in many years due to Dad’s difficulties.
Dad still has most of his facilities, but several years ago he was diagnosed with Parkinson’s, which he refuses to acknowledge and for which he will not take medication. When visiting the doctors, he is on his very best behavior, so the doctors somewhat support his contention, but he regresses extremely quickly once out the door. In recent years he has gotten worse in terms of his decision-making ability – especially financial decisions. His one-tracked mindedness (no matter how asinine his ideas), his verbal abuse to my mother, his physical condition, his slumped-over posture and his failure to hear (which he denies) as well as his ability to track conversations and make associations during a conversation have all worsened. The other day I turned on the TV in the kitchen and nearly had my eardrums blown out – he had the TV cranked up to 72! He’s constantly got Fox News running with the volume cranked, which is hard to deal with. I can only hear about the Delta Variant, Critical Race Theory and that total jackass Hidden Biden so much before I start going mad myself. He waffles back-and-forth with any and every decision to the point where it has become preposterous. Mom can’t really make any decision without Dad flying off the handle. His decisions are almost always wrong (in my opinion) and end up costing 3 times as much as it would have cost if he made a correct decision – which has been a decades-long issue, but has also gotten worse. Additionally, he probably shouldn’t be driving any longer for a variety of reasons.
Then there's the fact that he can also be the sweetest and most generous and genuine man you can imagine.
My brother and I are at a loss as to what to do about the situation. Mom wants to put him in a home, but I can only imagine what a total nightmare that would be. Brother wants to get an attorney involved and transfer power of attorney to Mom. I strongly suspect he eventually wants to pass at home, and who could blame him for that, but his erratic and mean behavior make that difficult for Mom. I know it’s extremely difficult and hurtful for older men to hear any of this from their family, but the time has come and something needs to be done.
So how do I approach this situation as the eldest son as delicately as possible without hurting him and his pride and what is the best course of action?
Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.
Thanks Jim, I try but I'm 680 miles away in EP, so most of that falls to my brother. Not really sure what else I can do, short of moving back to Big D, but that's not in the cards at the moment and I really don't want to move back to this deteriorating and Marxist-filled city. Maybe closer to Dallas, but I already started a thread about that, which didn't really produce any good answers.
So he fakes good behavior at the Doc’s office and switches back to a-hole around Mom.
So that sounds more ‘him’ than the affliction of Alz.
If an in-home nurse could start coming by, Mom could get a little break while he is occupied with 3rd party care giver. Plus he doesn’t want to get into hot water with the possiblity of being observed being verbal to your mother. It would be him knowing there’s some accountability eyeballs and dialog.
He can’t continue to suck the life out of your mother. Might just have to give a stern talk and law down the law.
Get some big, fat grumpy German or black female CNA to come on over there. They won’t take any lip. Get Olga to give him a couple of weekly enemas. That will bring him down a few notches.
As aside, I can see what someone like VarmintWife must deal with. The level of petulance the seniors put their loved ones through.
700: Good idea, but I don't think Dad would survive for long without her. He never puts anything away, leaves crap all over the place, leaves doors, cabinets, drawers, and even the refrigerator open on occasion. I'm afraid he'd leave the gas stove on and kill himself.
Sounds like he needs to be in a home. Get him in an assisted living home and your mom can visit when she feels like it. Obviously, what's done is done. but it sounds like his behavior started before his current medical condition and should have been dealt with a long time ago. At some point you have to do what's right for your mom. It's a tough situation that we dealt with somewhat many years ago. My Dad and I had to come to an understanding that me as an adult and my family would not tolerate poor behavior.
Slum, some good advice there, but the Parkinson's has exaggerated his base personality and he no longer has any ability to check himself. His one-track mindedness, his inability to make decisions, his caved-in posture and his absent-mindedness are all symptoms of Parkinson's Disease...
But I like your idea about the big Negress or fat German broad.
Kodiakisland: you are likely correct, but there would be holy hell to pay if/when we try that. & yes, his behavior has always been bad - for the most part. Thanks.
700: Good idea, but I don't think Dad would survive for long without her. He never puts anything away, leaves crap all over the place, leaves doors, cabinets, drawers, and even the refrigerator open on occasion. ..
That might be good for him. Let him see there can be consequences for his bad behavior.
High_Noon: I'm sorry for your dad's poor health and mean disposition, and I'm sorry for your mother having to have her life horribly affected by a bad and unfair situation.
Know that no matter what you do or how hard you try to placate everyone you will fail. Your father's feelings and pride will both take a beating but that's okay. Some will be happy and some will be miserable.
Because of this you have to implement actions that are well thought out and agreed upon by all caretakers involved. If you act from a position that is void of how things benefit you and only deal with how they benefit each parent you will sleep well at night and be proud of what you do.
It sounds like your mother really needs help and her desire to put him in a home speaks volumes of where her mind is on her situation. I think Parkinson's and other debilitating diseases like that have a tendency to exacerbate personality traits and if your father was vitriolic and abusive when healthy those traits will only be amplified as his illness progresses and he struggles to deal with what is happening to him. While understandable it is not excusable. It sounds like she's endured enough and no one deserves to be a human punching bag especially at that stage of their life. Talk to an attorney and get the legal side of things in order. Get a nurse to stay with your father and bring your mother to your place for a long visit and see how things go. Have a plan in place and don't let emotions hijack it. I bet you'll be amazed at how much your mother changes at your house when she isn't in such an abusive and toilful environment. And you'll realize that without your father doing a 180 on his personality and behavior there is nothing you can do that will suffice him.
I'm sorry for your situation right now but just know many others have traveled similar roads. Good luck. May you be filled with courage, wisdom, and strength. -tnscouter
A relative of mine suffered from Parkinson’s for thirty years before he passed, beginning in his mid-forties. A number of men who had contracted encephalitis while serving in the Pacific in WWII developed this condition to the point they received VA benefits.
I’m happy that your Dad can still function without medication. It’s been a while but last I saw the meds are of limited effectiveness at best.
I wish I had an answer, Whatever the present situation, your Dad must have done something right in his life to have married such a good woman and raised two fine, responsible sons.
it's going to be tough but it needs to be done for her sake. doing it and not hurting the oldmans feelings probably ain't going to happen.
Since he likes to play games and hide things from his doctors you need to record him in his temper tantrums as his doctors need to know everything that is going on.
Good luck, sometimes life gets hard and unenjoyable, I don't envy the things your going to have to do but they need to be done. just remember that when Dad gets mad and upset with you he is not himself, he's sick.
700: Good idea, but I don't think Dad would survive for long without her. He never puts anything away, leaves crap all over the place, leaves doors, cabinets, drawers, and even the refrigerator open on occasion. ..
That might be good for him. Let him see there can be consequences for his bad behavior.
It won't matter, he's sick and not in his right mind.
Is there any indication that he may be having mini strokes in addition to the Parkinson’s ? They can be almost imperceptible but can lead to frontal lobe dementia. This is what happened with my dad who has similar symptoms. He became very unsafe and could no longer live alone. Then Parkinson’s disease has a component of dementia which worsens over time.
I like the suggestion that someone made regarding your mom. Too often the caregiver/spouse suffers much more than the person who is ill. The stress on them can be as great or much greater than on the one who is ill. Something as simple as giving your mom time away can help a lot.
My mom died in 08 so my sister and I didn’t have that aspect to deal with. Once we had a clear diagnosis we were able to be a bit more objective or at least better balance out emotion with reason. Based on our experience I’d want to see if medication might moderate his behavior which may be anxiety. Placing a parent in twenty four hour care is not easy but is sometimes the only answer when all else has failed.
Edited to add: Since he is fronting for the doctor a few short discrete phone videos of his various behaviors would help his physician grasp the bigger picture.
I could use a little advice regarding the old man. I know many of you have dealt with similar situations so I thought I would illicit the collective opinions of my fellow ‘fire members and friends here.
For years and years now – a decade or more - my father has been extremely difficult to deal with. He is verbally abusive to my mother and though he has never struck her, it’s a wonder she never left him. His verbal abuse and yelling are almost constant and he is chock full of vitriol. I’m currently visiting the folks and the other night there was yet another yelling battle where he repeated yelling each of three inane statements approximately 23 times. Over and over and over. It was sad to see and hear. My mother has been an absolute saint dealing with it all and she’s very sharp, but she resents the fact that she hasn’t had much of a life in many years due to Dad’s difficulties.
Dad still has most of his facilities, but several years ago he was diagnosed with Parkinson’s, which he refuses to acknowledge and for which he will not take medication. When visiting the doctors, he is on his very best behavior, so the doctors somewhat support his contention, but he regresses extremely quickly once out the door. In recent years he has gotten worse in terms of his decision-making ability – especially financial decisions. His one-tracked mindedness (no matter how asinine his ideas), his verbal abuse to my mother, his physical condition, his slumped-over posture and his failure to hear (which he denies) as well as his ability to track conversations and make associations during a conversation have all worsened. The other day I turned on the TV in the kitchen and nearly had my eardrums blown out – he had the TV cranked up to 72! He’s constantly got Fox News running with the volume cranked, which is hard to deal with. I can only hear about the Delta Variant, Critical Race Theory and that total jackass Hidden Biden so much before I start going mad myself. He waffles back-and-forth with any and every decision to the point where it has become preposterous. Mom can’t really make any decision without Dad flying off the handle. His decisions are almost always wrong (in my opinion) and end up costing 3 times as much as it would have cost if he made a correct decision – which has been a decades-long issue, but has also gotten worse. Additionally, he probably shouldn’t be driving any longer for a variety of reasons.
Then there's the fact that he can also be the sweetest and most generous and genuine man you can imagine.
My brother and I are at a loss as to what to do about the situation. Mom wants to put him in a home, but I can only imagine what a total nightmare that would be. Brother wants to get an attorney involved and transfer power of attorney to Mom. I strongly suspect he eventually wants to pass at home, and who could blame him for that, but his erratic and mean behavior make that difficult for Mom. I know it’s extremely difficult and hurtful for older men to hear any of this from their family, but the time has come and something needs to be done.
So how do I approach this situation as the eldest son as delicately as possible without hurting him and his pride and what is the best course of action?
Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.
We had the same issue with my Dad who had Parkinsons. Last few years was tough on my mom. He was very abusive at the end both to nurses and my mom. No family can prepare for such a problem. I just kept reminding my mom that dad was miserable and sick and not in his right mind. Parkinsons is a slow killer that slowing over decades causes a deterioration of a persons abilities and effects so much of the way the patient feels physically and mentally. It also effects sleep. Dad was on his best behavior at the docs and he would outright lie about his condition to them. My mom just dealt with it. God bless her. I wasnt much help 1000 miles away but my sister was around my parents. Its going to get rough on your mom as he wears her down. My advise is talk to her often and listen to her. Dad died last year one miserable SOB. Not the man I knew for 57 years. We decided to remember the man he was before Parkensons destroyed his life. Good luck to your family. One day it will be over.
700: Good idea, but I don't think Dad would survive for long without her. He never puts anything away, leaves crap all over the place, leaves doors, cabinets, drawers, and even the refrigerator open on occasion. ..
That might be good for him. Let him see there can be consequences for his bad behavior.
It won't matter, he's sick and not in his right mind.
1) take care of your mom 2) turn off the TV or change it to something else. All that constant crap on FOX, and other "news channels" will piss anyone off. 3)Have a come to Jesus with him. Tell him to straighten up or there will be consequences all the way up to moving him into a home.
If you can, record some of the stuff he is doing so you can show it to the doctor. He may be able to help as well if he know the true picture.
IMHO, your mom and brother have said where to start........... Move him to where he can be helped and protect his assets..............
Parkinsons, in it's own right, is bad enough...... uncorrected hearing loss, diet, age all weigh on cognitive issues.
It sucks when the children have or need to become the parents, but that is often just the way it is.
YOU asked; '...So how do I approach this situation as the eldest son as delicately as possible without hurting him and his pride and what is the best course of action?...
HE is not being delicate, he is hurting others, if he is proud of his current conduct or he's always acted this way I would NOT worry about that either!
I'd show your post to your Dad's doctor and ask for his/her advice on how to handle the situation. If you can get the Dr. to agree that he needs to go to a home and that it would be best for both him and your Mom, it will make it much easier on you and your Mom. I think there is enough there to legally say that he is incapacitated and then get legal Power of Attorney. I'm sure if your Mom, you, and your brother can all attest that this is his behavior, then you can get it done. Certainly not the way you want your Mom to be living in her later years. Taking care of my 81 and 80 year old parents, I can relate. It is incredibly tough and fortunately, my Dad doesn't exhibit any of the behaviors of your Dad. I can only imagine how tough it is for the family. Good luck.
I totally agree with test 1328. Get the legal POA and doctor diagnosis. Then assisted living if possible. Have your mom out with you for a nice extended visit. Aren't alot of mon's saints............................................. Good luck!
You are not going to have a "Come to Jesus" with him that will do any good in the long term, as what you are seeing is a decline in metal health.
Ask yourself this:
Does your dad lack the capacity to make informed decisions about his own medical treatment?
Is he able to, on his own, provide for himself? Is he "Gravely Disabled"?
Gravely disabled” means the person is unable to provide(on his own) for basic personal needs (food, clothing, shelter) or lacks insight into the need for treatment and unwillingness to comply with treatment that is likely to lead to an inability to provide for basic needs.
Would he be considered mentally ill?
Mentally ill” for example means a person, who as a result of a substantial disorder of thought, mood, memory, (perception of reality from watching nothing but Fox news, thinking that is 100% reality) etc, etc, which grossly impairs his judgment, behavior (wild behavioral swings), capacity to recognize and adapt to reality, requires care and treatment at a facility.
If this sounds accurate, then your father is mentally ill and at the very least needs to have a mental health evaluation. He of course will be on his best behavior, but if you have a private meeting beforehand with proof and examples of what he does, that will go a long ways towards giving a proper total picture to the mental health examiner so they can make an informed decision that is best for both your dad, and your mom.
Start writing stuff down in a behavior journal. It will be important.
Honestly it sounds like he has onset of dementia, and it is time for him to be treated. Your mom should not have to be stuck in an abusive hell. If he is being that abusive in front of his kids, what sort of behavioral outbursts are happening when you are not present.
High Noon; Good morning sir, I'm sorry to read what you're having to deal with, truly I am.
My background in this subject was dealing with my late Mother who suffered from dementia for more than 3 years prior to her passing, my much loved Mother in law who suffered from dementia for 6 years prior to her passing and watching a good friend deal with his father who had Parkinson's and honestly his father was a friend to me as well.
The first step for me to keep my sanity was to gain the understanding that it wasn't really my mother that I was dealing with anymore. Truly it was still her body, but the hurtful words and actions weren't her - perhaps better said she wasn't responsible for them.
For me that wasn't an easy mental leap to make, but I really needed to do that in order to deal with it on a logical level and not an emotional one.
When I've talked to other children who have dealt with similar issues - such as my buddy with his father and talking just the other day to his mom - they reached the same conclusion and would simply say, "That wasn't really him anymore".
Up here we needed to get the patient "into the system" in order to get them into even a partial care facility. That means they'll be assessed for sure and like it sounds like your father can do, my Mother could somehow pull herself together and be a different person for many of those assessments.
We were blessed to have a young lady doctor who had about the best BS radar I've witnessed in a doctor and who cared for the patient and their family. She figured it out in a couple sessions and got things moving for Mom's placement.
As others have noted, your first priority must be to protect your mother, but at the same time getting help for your father who I believe from what you've said is no longer mentally "responsible/functioning properly".
I'm sorry you have to deal with this, we were the ones like your brother dealing directly with it and it's not simple being there or being far away like my siblings were and feeling torn and frustrated where they were.
I hope that was useful to you or someone out there. I wouldn't wish this on anyone.
If you feel I can be of any further use, please feel free to drop me a line.
In Washington State, it isn't a crime to be rude, homeless or mentally infirm. Hence, it's almost impossible to compel someone to do something against their will unless you have a court order.
If you're headed down the path of institutionalizing him, gather facts and present them in a court of law.
Otherwise, you're spinning your tail and nothing will be accomplished except you getting ever more frustrated.
I don't walk out my door these days without assuming I'm on camera. And it would truly suck if a guy couldn't live in his home without thinking of cameras. But if I was worried about my mom I'd do it
How long have they been married? At their age has it ever occurred to you that if your mom was so upset about their marriage she would have left him long ago. Sounds to me that you kids are all one sided in the mess.
What is happening with your dad, is a by product of Stress. Where he gets the inability to deal with the simplest of things that can put him in a stress mode. This makes his anger, come out of nowhere and his temper to immediately blow. Having Fox on all day is not helping at all, and is adding fuel to the flames. Fox is no different than any other news outlet, they live for the shock factor to increase ratings... Same with "talk" radio... they claim to keep you "informed", which is instead constant bashing of the world you live in, and keeps one's stress and followed by anger high.
Leaving doors to cabinets or the frig, etc is forgetfulness, but also extenuating what probably of his having ADHD and ADD. Was your dad full of an A Type personality and having a strong drive most of his life, having the stress of providing for you, your brother and mother? Giving each of you a lot in life along the way? Now he is not needed so much by anyone any more? The source of the problem is what is going on inside your dad's head. His world is changing, from what his life has always been, to something to where he has essentially been put out to pasture and is not dealing with it well. HIs world is now going in the total opposite direction. I'd dare see he has spent a life time being an accomplished person.. Suddenly he wakes up one day and no longer is. He has to rely on others, where the rest of his life beforehand has been people relying on him.
No where in the responses above, has anyone addressed what is going on in your dad's head and world.. Its just protect mom and throw dad in a Nursing home, memory care unit, take away his ability or need to address simple daily things in his life. His anger and temper is pushed further by people's reaction to his frustrations bursting out, just like a little kid will act out. We understand that in our society, but we don't understand when older adults do like that.
your dad is not receiving any love, or support at all.. he's always seeming to be the bad guy. No one needs him any more, or else they are relying on him now more than ever... greater than the ability for him to handle it all. He has issues that need to be addressed, not him being rejected in response all the time. In our society, we can understand machines wear out, but people are not allowed to... especially when it is someone who people have relied upon so much for so long.. then suddenly that is gone. They are concerned with their lives, because they can manage it on their own, and dear old dad and husband is no longer really needed.. His internal guilt from his own incidents of exploding at the one's he loves most, just causes him to act out more over anger and frustration with it.
I know what the solutions are, but I doubt few would understand them, because your dad is being judged by others perspectives, and no one is bothering to try to figure out his. Simple solutions, when is the last time you or your mom or brother, have put your arms around your dad when he is starting off on a tempertantrum and just told him you love him? or thank him for all that he has done to contribute to your lives? you might try it and see what you get.
Your dad is going thru incidents of feeling useless any more, not being able to do what he use to be able to do, things important to him most of his life are changing, and suddenly what was status quo is now wrong.....he probably is a person who loves his country, and then is having WOKE, BLM, Antifa, democRats and everything else so screwed up shoved down his throat.. acting out is when it has put his mind on overload on top of all the other experiences he is dealing with, where he is no longer what he use to be, but having to deal with what he has become.
Quit pushing dad away, and thinking everything is his fault, and if you have love for him, it needs to be shown....
most people will look at their mom differently, going thru all of this, than they do their dad... its back to society's standards we have been living our entire life...Mothers and children are more important than good old White Guys who had to supply everything, and a "REAL MAN" was suppose to do it, be always self sacrificing and never expect anything in return for it.
I'll bet my bottom dollar that is where your dad is at. and sure, he can be Mr Nice Giuy, when he is at the doctor's office, because he is away from the stress of his daily environment for a brief time.. the doctor's office is showing care and concern about him.... as soon as he walks out the door, he's back in the same place... Everything wrong in the world is his fault and he's nothing but a POS to those around him, that he has loved the most for a life time. He gets away from that, his stress drops like a rock....
No one is seeing what he is seeing... no one around him is able to "walk a mile in his shoes" and understand the perspective he sees....
How long have they been married? At their age has it ever occurred to you that if your mom was so upset about their marriage she would have left him long ago. Sounds to me that you kids are all one sided in the mess.
You need to make a decision first: Is that still your dad? Simple as that (yeah I know!). If it is your Dad, then worry about Mom.
If it's not your Dad due to decline in mental capacity, take the steps to protect him and your Mom: - See lawyer advice about power of attorney - Seek Medical advice about in home care, or a home, depending on things. You mentioned you Mom wants him in a home, that right there should tell you where you should start.
Realize no matter what you do, the short term flash-point is going to be huge. But the longer this drags, the worse it will get, if he is suffering from some type of mental decline, it WILL NOT get better and it sounds like your Mom has reached the point where she's asking for help.
I was a Special Investigator with TEXAS Department of Family Services, and my dad struggled with Alzheimer's for about 15 years, the last 4 or so in a "group home". So, i have seen this from a multitude of facets... I would consider an anonymous call to the elder care hotline pointing out the abuse to your mom...an "unencumbered" set of eyes on the situation may be exactly what is needed...if nothing else, the DFPS can provide a referral to a doc/specialist that can provide insight. Make no mistake, there are problems with involving the government...but you also gain valuable "uninvolved" opinions and observations that can go a long way towards convincing attorneys, other docs and family of the actual situation and all it's complexities...luck to you and your family...you are on my prayer list...
High Noon, with respect, you really knew the answer before you asked. It's just that the path forward is going to be unpleasant and is kind of hard to face, Guardianship now. You and your brother really should be the ones doing this. Get with a lawyer who does this and make it happen. Mom will be even more conflicted than you, so spare her some of the guilt. Get his doctor the full story so he understands. Maybe meds can help and maybe not. The idea of home health care is a good one and home care agencies have social workers who can help when the time comes for placement. That time has probably already arrived. Hug him if you want, but don't expect to " love him out of this". Oh yea, an ass kicking for him is really a stupid idea. He may be a SOB, but his mental decline is nobody's fault. It just is what it is. Sometimes #$@&** happens and somebody's gotta deal with it. This time that somebody is you. Best wishes in this difficult time.
Sorry to hear of all that My mother suffered with Parkinson's for the last few years of her life, and it's as hard on the relatives as it was her. I cared for her until I couldn't any longer, and it took a toll on me mentally and physically. She started out with periods of weakness and some mental spells, then went on to full on hallucinations and combative behavior. Elbowed my nose bloody at one point. I suspect she had some mini strokes although the medical people never said so She finally had to be hospitalized on Christmas day and stayed 2 weeks before being released into home hospice care. I managed to help her along several more months until she finally passed.
The only advice I can give is to have way more insurance than you think you need. Her last days took every dime I could muster and more. Don't let an elderly person handle the legal and financial business. If one of the relatives can't do it legally and ethically, get a lawyer or administrator There's nothing easy about the whole mess and I hope anyone that has to deal with it has much strength and the ability to make tough decisions
we have faced a similiar situation in the family and sadly theres really no way to solve it without someone getting butthurt
what we did was install those camera things like the ring doorbell discretely in the main rooms, kitchen living room etc. made the family member watch their own behavior several times then used the video to show the doctors and ultimately get the old man medication etc
i will find out what cameras they are, if youd like. you could even watch and hear in real time on your phone whenever you wanted and gave mom(who knew the cameras was there) a "safe" phrase she could use if she need us to call in law or someone.
bad thing is now the old man has passed and i am afraid my wife has installed them here to spy on me!
My only advice to you is to NOT go through the process to give your Mom power of attorney. At her age, one of you boys need to take on that responsibility.
There is no "good" solution. Pick the best of the bad ones and live with it. I am always loathe to involve social services but it is what they are there for.
HighNoon, I wish you and your brother all the best on the journey and decisions you will have to make with your Dad.
I am going through something very similar with my mother. She is older and she can put the front up when with a doctor. However, to family she is poison mean. I was able to get her to have me declared for Power of Attorney and Executor. Making the move to execute the power of attorney is a very difficult decision as at that point I would need to be ready to take over her living responsibilities and I am not mentally ready for that struggle.
What I have found out for dealing with placement of seniors up here is troubling if the parent is difficult. Basically, in either public or private facilities if the person placed is not found to be mentally incompetent (Alzheimer’s, Parkinson’s, dementia) and they are placed in a facility -- if they are found to be disruptive to staff or the facility operation then you are given a notice that they must leave and are in your care. Basically, pick them up outside the building as we do not want them here anymore. However, if they are mentally incompetent then they can be placed in a secure ward. So, we as a family are in a waiting period.
This maybe something you want to check on re the rules for placement in facilities in your area.
While we are waiting, I document all discussion, issues, changes in direction etc to show the pattern of change in her mental health. This is a joint undertaking with a sister so we can show non bias. I also was able to arrange for joint signing on the bank account so I can track how she is managing her finances --- bill payments etc to avoid any creditor issues.
Hope some of this helps and I wish you the best. Not an easy time dealing with a parent that is not aging gracefully.
You, brother and Mom need to all sit down and talk with the doctor together and tell him what happens once Dad is out of Doc's office. Record the activity Dad does. Contact your local Crisis/Mental Health folks and see what options they are to help out. It may come down to an involuntary commitment to the hospital if Dad is "a threat to himself or others" Maybe if he gets on his meds it will resolve everything. Also, sit down with Dad and have a blunt heart to heart. If Dad respects you and brother, you need to be very firm and tell him to knock the crap off.
High Noon, here is a video by Dr. Natalie Edmonds, PhD. Geropsycholgist, who specializes in the various dementia disorders. Her many videos are short and were very, very helpful to me when my wife was suffering from Alzheimer's dementia. Very good information and advice to those who have loved ones with dementia.
Best of luck. It is a difficult disorder to suffer, and difficult for those who try to care for an afflicted loved one.
Is your Dad this mean, when it’s just you and him??
I’m not trying to defend him, just trying to identify if it’s really just “him”, or a combination of a contankerous old fart who just wants to be left alone and watch some TV, a diminishing ability to button his lip, and a woman who thinks they’re 20 years younger, and has a never-ending list of “honey-do’s” and nags that don’t stop for a guy who is just plain worn out, and doesn’t care about the “little things” (housekeeping/etc) in his last few years.
With that out of the way, if it is just HIM, and he really is “exploding” all the time on your mother without reason/provocation, then it IS time to have a sit down with your Mom and other siblings, and determine how much more she can tolerate. From there, it’s either medication, or time to go to a care facility. A home health nurse can help in the interim, and their documentation of “bad behavior” might even help, if he’s putting on an “act” when at the Doc’s office.
It’s sad, but there’s only so much you or your Mom can do, and making her miserable/possibly endangering her with him around needs to be avoided. It also lets your Mom have “good” memories of your Father, rather than looking back on the last years of his life as an abusive nightmare, and seeing him at his worst, day in and day out, for the next 1/2/3 years..
In the meantime, give her some breaks. Take her home with you or she can stay with one of your siblings for a few days, here and there. Stock their pantry, for Dad, and tell him you’ll have some food delivered to him for a big dinner. Can he handle a few days on his own??
An old man that “just wants to watch a little TV” is a farce
That’s usually ALL THEY DO, my old is 72 lives by himself about 2 miles up the highway.
I go up there see why in the hell he is not answering his house phone or his cell phone. The friggin FOX News is on volume 100. JFC
If it aint that, he’s got Stagecoach or Lee Van Cleef on pew pew pew...for the umpteenth time.
I tell him all the time, “Pop, your brain is going to turn into oatmeal”
He doesn’t like coming down to our place because we don’t run all that TV news crap. I have to keep at least a once a day check-in with him so he doesn’t go full-blown Ice Creamaggeddon like other old folks. Old people and the dayum ice cream.
Thanks to you all for your suggestions. I appreciate that many of you shared your experiences, many of which I found insightful.
I may have given a wrong impression as far as his mental capacity is concerned. He is still mostly all there and is largely still the Father he always has been, though he thinking methodology remains a complete mystery to me, as it has always been. My father does indeed exhibit the poor behavior I outlined in my initial post, but he does not have dementia nor is he mentally ill or incompetent – but that’s a judgement call on my part. Yes, I and my family are witnessing his mental decline; however, his argumentative behavior, yelling and verbal abuse towards my mother is nothing new - it's been going on most of my life, but it has definitely gotten worse over the last several years, as have all of the symptoms I mentioned. I don't believe he is yet ready for an assisted memory care living facility, though some in-home care a few times a week would certainly help Mom. The family is certainly getting closer to needing an involuntary conservatorship or revoking his power of attorney, which as executor, would fall to me.
As far as mini-strokes are concerned, we have seen no evidence of such. He sees the doctors on a regular basis and they have not expressed any concerns regarding mini strokes, nor is there a family history of such. Both my folks are under stress and it’s difficult to assess which parent is suffering the most, but I imagine Mom has it pretty tough dealing with him. Giving her some time off is a good idea.
Yes, he is sick and not in his historically “right” mind, but as I stated I don’t think an assisted care facility is the answer at this point. Visiting the folks as I am, I’m sure I don’t see the full picture, but I believe I get a pretty danged good picture of what’s going on here. I don’t believe it gets much worse when I’m gone. I did lay down the law with him before my young daughter arrived here to join me for 11 days. He tried to walk away from me saying he didn’t want to hear it when I told him I wasn’t going to tolerate his nasty and mean behavior when she was here. He heard me and for the most part limited the yelling and nastiness while she was here, so he is capable of modifying his behavior. He needs to be conscious of it though. It occurred to me that many or even most times he doesn’t even realize he doing it – being so obstinate – it’s like it has become second nature for him to act that way.
As several have stated, having a come to Jesus conversation with him will likely accomplish very little to nothing. I’ve had several such conversations with him in the past and they accomplished nothing and usually resulted in a yelling match between us. A rational, calm conversation with him regarding his behavior is virtually impossible, but can be done on rare occasions.
Regarding medication, he’s on several, but stopped his Parkinson’s meds.
Seafire: Jon, your post is almost spot-on and the only one which considers his perspective. Many of your comments are true and I know from personal experience how difficult it is to accept the fact that I cannot do many of the things I was able to do in my youth – before my back problems. I know this has been very difficult for Dad as well. I do compliment him when deserved, which seems to be less and less with the passing of years, but I know he appreciates it when I do. More often, though, his decisions make things more difficult to handle and create almost insurmountable and sometimes expensive problems – and many times he knows it, which fuels his temper as you stated. Your simple solutions are good ideas and I have, to some extent, done most of them, and yes, they do help, but only for a short while, but not for any meaningful length of time. We may not show it on a daily basis, but he knows we love him and do show it periodically. Thanks for your insightful post.
Before I posted this thread, I really didn’t know the answer, and I still don’t know, but based on everyone’s comments, I am formulating a plan. We will start a log and perhaps begin to compile recordings. At the very least a consult with an attorney is in order so that we will be prepared when the final straw falls.
I do speak with Mom often and I will continue to do so. I will also continue to discuss the issue with her and my brother, since he is on the front lines, so to speak.
fburgtx: No, he is not this mean when it’s just the two of us, but he can be. He usually refrains because he knows I won’t tolerate it. Mom is easier to push around, no matter her threats. She’s just a little old lady, but she can definitely call up the ferocity when needed.
Yes, she does have a lengthy list and she’s an accomplished nagger, but that’s largely due to the fact that we were hit by the tornado on 10/20/19 and Dad can’t make a fuggin’ decision on any of it and when he does, it’s often, but not always, the wrong or a bad decision. Prior to the tornado it took him nearly 2 years to decide on a fuggin’ garage door! I don’t believe she is in any physical danger, though. She has to nag him though, if she didn’t, he would have died from Diabetes long ago.
Originally Posted by slumlord
An old man that “just wants to watch a little TV” is a farce That’s usually ALL THEY DO. ...The friggin FOX News is on volume 100. JFC
Yup. My exact experience with Dad.
Thanks again for everyone’s comments, suggestions, advice and well-wishes.
With all due respect, from the limited information, there’s a strong possibility your pops is a phugging narcissist. Might even have Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Your mom probably shoulda bailed decades ago.
Read up on it. If he is, phugg his pride, cut bait. Better late than never.
his argumentative behavior, yelling and verbal abuse towards my mother is nothing new -
Mom has it pretty tough dealing with him. Giving her some time off is a good idea.
As several have stated, having a come to Jesus conversation with him will likely accomplish very little to nothing. I’ve had several such conversations with him in the past and they accomplished nothing and usually resulted in a yelling match between us. A rational, calm conversation with him regarding his behavior is virtually impossible, but can be done on rare occasions.
Regarding medication, he’s on several, but stopped his Parkinson’s meds.
No, he is not this mean when it’s just the two of us, but he can be. He usually refrains because he knows I won’t tolerate it. Mom is easier to push around, no matter her threats. She’s just a little old lady, but she can definitely call up the ferocity when needed.
Fireball2: Yes, very astute observation, but he's so frail now it's not possible w/out a very bad outcome. It should have been done years ago.
A verbal ass-kicking.
I'd think about showing up at a doctor's appt with your brother and mother and essentially hold an intervention right there. Explain to the doc in advance what his behavior is like.
Tell your dad he has a choice. He can take some meds that would help with the symptoms that are causing his deep-seated frustration or he can be placed in a home out of concern for you mother.
Then if he has to be placed in a nursing care facility, it was his choice and his actions that lead to it.
it's going to be tough but it needs to be done for her sake. doing it and not hurting the oldmans feelings probably ain't going to happen.
Since he likes to play games and hide things from his doctors you need to record him in his temper tantrums as his doctors need to know everything that is going on.
Good luck, sometimes life gets hard and unenjoyable, I don't envy the things your going to have to do but they need to be done. just remember that when Dad gets mad and upset with you he is not himself, he's sick.
We have a friend whose husband is a non-compliant diabetic and it is looking pretty bad. I don't know if he has early Alzhimers or if it is his biabetic condition. His wife was looking for help, like a visiting nurse but she was told he didn't qualify. She put him on the phone and it was a different story. He ramped up and told the person on the phone they were liars, cheats, wanted his money and so on. She was able to get the help she needed after that phone call. It's a sad situation but if you fear for your mom's mental well being or safety you're going to have to piss off dad. I hope your siblings are all in agreement with you. I don't envy your position in life right now.
Fireball2: Yes, very astute observation, but he's so frail now it's not possible w/out a very bad outcome. It should have been done years ago.
A verbal ass-kicking.
I'd think about showing up at a doctor's appt with your brother and mother and essentially hold an intervention right there. Explain to the doc in advance what his behavior is like.
Tell your dad he has a choice. He can take some meds that would help with the symptoms that are causing his deep-seated frustration or he can be placed in a home out of concern for you mother.
Then if he has to be placed in a nursing care facility, it was his choice and his actions that lead to it.
According to the OP, his dad is NOT mentally ill, demented or incompetent. If this is the case, then he’s not going to be “placed” anywhere. He will make his own choices. He may indeed have undiagnosed dementia or,alternatively, just be an abusive SOB. If the latter is the case, then it’s probably way past time to get mom out. She may not be willing to do this. Abused spouses don’t always choose to leave. Sounds like a mess. Still a good idea to get home health care and be sure his doctor knows what’s really going on.
WMR: You're correct regarding an assisted care facility. No way in hell would he agree to that and without a messy and expensive legal proceeding it simply won't happen. He has been verbally abusive for decades; though, as I mentioned his Parkinson's has exacerbated the problem(s). His failure to track during conversations and his forgetfulness are simply mental decline, which has not even reached the level of Demented Joe. As mentioned, recording his outbursts and playing them back to him at a later date may be helpful, as would occasional home health care. No way Mom will be chased out of her home by this, though, I know she's been tempted. Dad can just be very tough to deal with. Unfortunately, not much can be done about it.
Mad: Correct, but many here have dealt with similar situations and certainly some of the recommendations have been helpful. At the very least, it's given me a lot to consider.
Mad: Correct, but many here have dealt with similar situations and certainly some of the recommendations have been helpful. At the very least, it's given me a lot to consider.
I'd point out that the REAL time to get POA is before, well before, it is needed. If you're over 60, find ONE PERSON who you trust with your life, and make certain they are fully aware of what POA implies. If you wait until there's a problem, guaranteed everyone involved will get an early visit to He//. My parents actually did the right things, but maybe a little too early because it didn't "register" with me fully. I was given a POA about 15 years beforehand, filed it, and totally forgot about it. Completely. Stepdad dies, Mom gets demented, Washington State laws are stiff (justifiably so), so I was totally along for the ride, and it was rough. Day after Mom dies and I call the stepsibs, stepsis says she had an email from Stepbro with an attached POA. He'd sent it to the steps (but not me) four years previous, right there was not only the POA, but the name of the law firm that had copies of the last will and testament, which I'd never been able to find. Gosh knows where it went or why it was unfindable. Bottom line is, don't putz around. If it is at all possible to get a POA willingly signed and recorded where it covers both your mom and dad, and by gosh, I hope to heck you guys already have a WILL in force, do that POA.
The Old Man just had the TV cranked to 99. Mom was yelling at him to turn the dammed thing down. He did the same thing this AM, but he "doesn't have hearing problems."
Getting older, losing some mental and physical faculties besides the Parkinson has a tendency to lead to depression. It is getting mad with your self,and others around you just happen to get brunt of of it. BTDT
Deafness is also a common cause of mood disorders. It makes one very isolated and that can take a toll. This is not to excuse anyone for abusing a spouse. That is never OK.
I could use a little advice regarding the old man. I know many of you have dealt with similar situations so I thought I would illicit the collective opinions of my fellow ‘fire members and friends here.
For years and years now – a decade or more - my father has been extremely difficult to deal with. He is verbally abusive to my mother and though he has never struck her, it’s a wonder she never left him. His verbal abuse and yelling are almost constant and he is chock full of vitriol. I’m currently visiting the folks and the other night there was yet another yelling battle where he repeated yelling each of three inane statements approximately 23 times. Over and over and over. It was sad to see and hear. My mother has been an absolute saint dealing with it all and she’s very sharp, but she resents the fact that she hasn’t had much of a life in many years due to Dad’s difficulties.
Dad still has most of his facilities, but several years ago he was diagnosed with Parkinson’s, which he refuses to acknowledge and for which he will not take medication. When visiting the doctors, he is on his very best behavior, so the doctors somewhat support his contention, but he regresses extremely quickly once out the door. In recent years he has gotten worse in terms of his decision-making ability – especially financial decisions. His one-tracked mindedness (no matter how asinine his ideas), his verbal abuse to my mother, his physical condition, his slumped-over posture and his failure to hear (which he denies) as well as his ability to track conversations and make associations during a conversation have all worsened. The other day I turned on the TV in the kitchen and nearly had my eardrums blown out – he had the TV cranked up to 72! He’s constantly got Fox News running with the volume cranked, which is hard to deal with. I can only hear about the Delta Variant, Critical Race Theory and that total jackass Hidden Biden so much before I start going mad myself. He waffles back-and-forth with any and every decision to the point where it has become preposterous. Mom can’t really make any decision without Dad flying off the handle. His decisions are almost always wrong (in my opinion) and end up costing 3 times as much as it would have cost if he made a correct decision – which has been a decades-long issue, but has also gotten worse. Additionally, he probably shouldn’t be driving any longer for a variety of reasons.
Then there's the fact that he can also be the sweetest and most generous and genuine man you can imagine.
My brother and I are at a loss as to what to do about the situation. Mom wants to put him in a home, but I can only imagine what a total nightmare that would be. Brother wants to get an attorney involved and transfer power of attorney to Mom. I strongly suspect he eventually wants to pass at home, and who could blame him for that, but his erratic and mean behavior make that difficult for Mom. I know it’s extremely difficult and hurtful for older men to hear any of this from their family, but the time has come and something needs to be done.
So how do I approach this situation as the eldest son as delicately as possible without hurting him and his pride and what is the best course of action?
Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.
It's a tough gig. Do the best you can. As long as you do that...there can be no real regrets.
WMR: In Dad's case it could easily solved by hearing aids, but he refuses
My Dad was much the same. Refused hearing aids and Alzheimer’s onset. I’m the oldest, so I was the one that had to deal with it. It sucked for Mom and everyone in the Family. Sorry your having to deal with this. Prayers sent for you and yours.
WMR: In Dad's case it could easily solved by hearing aids, but he refuses
There is no "easy" solution. It's just hard. It will probably get harder,but I promise you that it won't last forever and you will never regret the hardships when they are gone.
I’m sorry to hear you’re having to go through this. It’s hard to see our aged parents going downhill; especially when they won’t do anything about it. I’m in a similar situation with mine. Mom has early symptoms of dementia and dad has health issues that he won’t take care of like he should. We’ve had some success with dad getting him to the doc appointments and his temperament has improved as he feels better. He still gets frustrated with Mom (and me) though. I can only suggest to get your siblings together and express your love for him and your mom and share your concerns with them. Add to that some ideas how to help him/them and try and do it in such a way that it’s his idea.
Good luck. This isn’t a fun thing to have to go through.
Record his ranting and play it for a headshrinker. If he has an idea about what’s going on then have him work with the doctor to treat him. It could be a form of dementia or depression, but the doc can figure it out.
I would help my mom go on a vacation with relatives or friends for a while, You should have someone else stay with him while she is gone.
Also, make sure your father doesn’t have access to firearms.
ConradCA: Good advice on firearms. He's been after me for the past 2 years or so to bring him a pistol. I did bring him one during my current visit (I'm headed back to W. TX tomorrow in the AM) and I already decided not to leave the pistol with him. Thanks.
WMR: In Dad's case it could easily solved by hearing aids, but he refuses
My Dad refused hearing aids for 10+ years. Got pissed every time we brought it up. Then he went to visit his brother and tried his on. Still said he didn't need them for a year or so but I could tell he was thinking about it. Then one day he had me call and get it setup at the VA and now he won't be without them.
The only downfall is that now he can hear Mom muttering behind his back whenever he pisses her off over something trivial!
I went through something similar with dad before he died! The only one who he showed respect for was his older brother! After Curly would leave he leveled out for awhile! Around the rest he was an ass! I talked to my uncle and ask him, why he thought dad always treated him different! He said after WW2 , three years in the south pacific, dad was always different! I believe he had what today they call, PTSD! Curly always brought dad a treat, turned out Curly was feeding him thc cookies,cake and goodies! When I confronted him about the treats. Curly said he gave them to him, and never told dad what was in them! Because he wanted his younger brother to have a happy life! I'm not suggesting you give him cookies, but you might talk to your mom, about anything that might be a trigger for his actions. Something from years ago might be his problem, and has gone undiagnosed for years! I'm sorry for your dads problems, and hope your family gets a grip on thee situation!
Seafire, I turned my daughter-in-law on to your post. She is an RN, with an advanced degree, her specialty is patient advocacy and care planning when a person is released from the hospital. Her job puts her in frequent conflict with the family, but her responsibility is with the patient. She was blown away by your insight of the situation High Noon's dad is going through. She says you nailed it. He is clearly in the well documented triangle of fear, frustration and anger at his situation. She asked if you had medical training, of course I didn't know, but I told her you were one helluva handloader. Anyway, in one professional's opinion, you got a career in healthcare if you ever wanted it.
