A little too much background information first. As of February, I have been working at a firm that allows 100% virtual work. On June 29, my wonderful landlord announced that he was raising my rent 10% a second year in a row on my 2,100 sq ft house in Northern Virginia. So, two days later, I signed a contract on a new home in northeast WV that is 4,900 sq ft and sits on five acres with a small stream running through it about 100 yards behind, and 70 feet below, the back of my house. My wonderful girl lives an hour away but works just a few minutes away across the Potomac in MD. So, she spends a lot of time here. The payments, including taxes and insurance, are $1,100 less per month than renting that house in Virginia.

The basement, though unfinished, is one of my favorite places.





The moose is enjoying his new confines.

I really like this place.

But I need a fishing pond!

This is an example of what the small stream looked like.

A few weeks ago, my boys and I started damming it up by hand with timber and clay.

We already created a decent fish pond and stocked it with some largemouth bass and minnows and are feeding them.







But strong rains can compromise it requiring occasional repairs, and I want to build it higher.

My son and I cut a road through the forest down to the dam and pond.



I bought about 18,000 lbs of solid concrete blocks.



This is exactly what my Gladiator Rubiicon was designed to do – hauling heavy loads up and down steep muddy hills.

I want to have two separate ponds separated by the original dam so that I can put bass, catfish, and bluegill in one, and walleye, bluegill, and catfish I the other.

This is about 50 feet downstream from the existing dam. It’s the best place to try to build a concrete dam in that it is the narrowest stretch with the highest banks.

Here’s where I need some advice!

My plan, subject to your advice, is to build a 3-1/2’ - 4’ high rectangle of blocks illustrated below that would be 4’-8” wide and 6’ deep. The left side of the bank contains a low of shale rock that is very difficult to beat down with a pick axe. So, I can’t easily form the left side of the bank to seal against the concrete.



That would not dam the stream because the water would move arounds the left side.

Then, I would start dropping 60-lb bags of Quikrete or Sakrete on the sides spanning the 6’ depth of the dam; leave them in the paper sacks; press down the top surface flat; and then start laying more blocks on top of that.

That would force the stream water into the bags of concrete.

My hope is that the concrete will cure and set in the bags and the mass of the concrete and concrete blocks will hold them in place, and then I will have a 20,000 lb concrete dam that will hold.



Am I using the correct materials in terms of the bagged concrete?

Should I try to rebar the bagged concrete together and possibly into the ground?

Is there anything wrong with my approach?

Under WV law, this all is legal. I would have to make the dam 60 ft high and retain 500 acre-feet of water for this to qualify as a regulated dam, and that’s at least 100-times more water than I’m looking at retaining.

Many thanks in advance for any helpful advice.

Nice house!
You gonna buy it?

I bought it on Aug. 11.

It's a few posts down from the top.

Fantastic! Congrats!

Thanks. I'm not materialistic, but my life just got a lot better when I moved here.

You didn't mention how the water will get out of the pond[overflow].

Nice place BTW

Thanks. My plan is to build a penultimate layer of blocks on top with something like 4" horizontal gaps every foot or so, and then lay a solid flat layer of blocks on top of that, so that the water can overflow under a layer of concrete blocks.

Really nice place.

Do you know the highest flow rate of that stream during wet years?

I wouldn't want to be you when the Army Corps of Engineers, or some other regulatory agency, discovers this. I know you're a Marine and all, but around here they don't take kindly to stuff like that. Hope it works out for you; nice place.

No, but it's not much. The stream starts only about 2,000 feet upstream of me. And, just after the post- Hurricane Ida tropical rains, it didn't raise up noticeably. I think that's because it's near the start of the stream and the stream follows a fairly-steep path--so, it can't really build up in depth--unless it's dammed.

It's legal under WV law. See above. It's not even a dam to be regulated unless I was retaining over 50 acre-feet of water--more than 100 times more than what I'm contemplating.

You are living the dream friend, minus an excavator of course!

I would also offer that you know the source of where your stocked fish come from.
We have a small spring fed pond, the spring is completely underground until entry into the pond, no creek feed etc.

Some 'friends' offered some Koi and we allowed them to put them in, we now have hydrilla living in it in it with no way to eradicate.

This question might be where he was going. Is it legal to do it THERE? Even if a wetlands determination hasn't been made, that could still be considered wetlands. https://www.fws.gov/wetlands/data/mapper.html

Check with the Corp of Engineers, they know about dams and such. You DID get permission before doing that, right? Damming any kind of waterway might even bring in the EPA, too.

You might have bitten off more than you wanna chew. Around here, they'll flat-out skin you alive for such things.

Actually, it will end up about 1/900th of 50 acre-feet of water when I'm done if my calculations are correct.

I like your plan and you have a beautiful place there. The only thing I would skip would be the walleye. I doubt they would reproduce in a body of water that size, unless put and take is your goal. I would not attempt to segregate fish populations in the two separate ponds either. Whatever species you have in the higher pond will also end up in the lower pond sooner or later. Best of luck with your project. Just spending that much quality time with your kids alone is worth the trouble.

Thanks for the advice and kind words TBB. There are deer out back there too! Youth-only season is in less than two weeks.

How many acres above the dam feeds the stream? Spring fed?

It appears to be fed by a farm pond about 2,000-ft upstream, that and rainfall.

The downstream flow hasn't been affected by the current dam and can't and won't by the proposed one. It isn't big enough for evap to be a significant factor, and the water has to go through or over--nothing else is possible.

Beautiful place. Love that moose and the basement.
For your pond, just bring in a pair of beavers. 🦫 😊

My advice is to get a guy in with a bulldozer that knows what he's doing and make an earthen dam. It will be safer and you'll get more of what you're looking for with less headache.

My Dad and I did a project kind of like this when I was a young teen, albeit a bit smaller. He wanted to show me various construction techniques, and we picked a little creek that was running behind the house. The teaching went well. It was a great father/son weekend diversion. The creek was dry. It drizzled a bit early in the week, and filled everything nicely. Then we had a two-day toad-strangler, and I went down after the rain let up to see what had happened.

I got there just as the thing was letting go. I got up on the dam and tried to throw mud into a small breech, but it failed and sent a wall of water down the hill, washed out into some back yards, and then finally drained into a culvert over on the next street. People were rushing out of their houses to see where the water was coming from. I had sense to duck and run back to the house.

I thought the dam was going to be permanent. Dad explained it was just a teaching exercise and not to get my panties in a wad. Even he was surprised the dam had let go so fast. We waited for a phone call. It never came. By the next day, you could not see what we had done.

Shaman, I'm looking at it the same way, basically. If the concrete dam doesn't work, it will just be an experiment. Since I created that road, I then could hire someone with a front-end loader to drive down and build a large earthen dam over and around the exiting timber and earth dam.

This dam is about 70 feet vertically below any house or yard, including mine. So, it can't get up to someone's yard or house.

Water is a powerful force. Almost any dam you could build there, especially anything you can build by hand will succumb to hydraulic pressure.

Earth dams need good engineering. Even then they sometimes fail.

What is downstream?

Hawk, love the new place & your significant other !

WINNING !!

The Potomac River is about 1.2 miles downstream.

It used to be that intermittent stream were of no concern to the Corp but that changed under Obama and un changed under Trump. I do not know if it has changed back under our phony president Biden. If the State doesn't care and the rules have not changed then I say go for it. Have all the fun you want with it. Playing in a creek is great fun and building little dams are just as fun.

kwg

Wasn’t there an episode of Gunsmoke or Bonanza about Big Daddy damming up the stream? 😃


Good trivia for the old couch cünts

I probably would have used breaker rock and local materials, clay , mud etc with a mini excavator or what have you. The concrete blocks will work until they don't and the water eats away the bank on the sides of the concrete. Cool place, Dude! You have some good years left to enjoy it also.

This is pretty true unless it pretty shallow and even then in a 10-20 year storm event will wash it out.

Looks like a neat place dude.

I have a small concrete dam on a creek on my place. Water rights are public info here and I checked to make sure it was recorded. Was told when I bought that I was very lucky. No way would that fly now.

Link: WV law as of 2013

Sounds like you're opening yourself up to a law suit by multiple parties...

Phil

Cool place but somebody is going to figure out what you’re doing and they’re going to kill you.

LOL

GayGhost voted for Biden.

LOL

What a loser.

The tires are a nice touch. LOL

Don't know about your location, but mess with a stream here, and there can be hell to pay. It's not one of those things where it's better to ask for forgiveness than to seek permission.

The libtards are flying out the woodwork on this thread.
Somebody call the EPA!!!!

I would not call the corp of engineers or any regulatory body. I would do like you and just build it, it's a small enough project that it can't really create any major issues downstream.

Just hope there isn't a kid playing in that ravine when the wall of mud and debris comes washing down. Your homeowner's policy won't cover it.

That's my take as well.

Good to see you again! I'd use a excavator and dig the steam bed deeper while using the material to create the damn. Six feet deep will have about 375lbs of shear pressure (per linear foot at the base) trying to slide the damn out of place. I'd estimate the earthen dam to be as wide as it is tall to keep it in place. The concrete bags in water are a waste of concrete. You'll have to divert the water, and allow the concrete to properly set, if you want to go that route. Reinforced CMU blocks will work, but you'll have to trench them into the sides of the stream and stream bed...I'm guessing at least two feet (depends on soil conditions). The CMU will have to be fully grouted and reinforced with rebar. Boulders would be the easiest if you could get them in place. A 10yard dump truck worth would work great...if you could get them there.

LOL. The odds of that happening are not zero, but pretty close. Live on the edge.

@OP, three thoughts…

First, congrats on the new house. Looks beautiful. And great setting to boot.

Second, I like to tinker as well. Regarding your block dam, only thing I would add is to cut Slot or keyway in the bottom and sides of the existing earthworks. To tie in your structure to the existing soil.

Third, if your block dam does not work out, another vote to bring in a professional with a large loader. There is a lot that goes into building an earthen dam that is strong, safe, and doesn’t leak.

Sounds like you are already having fun. Good luck !

Thinking the dam needs to be cut deeper and further into the ravine sides. Probably ought to consider marrying that pretty young filly.

The EPA's WOTUS stuff is pretty nasty. Basically, they want to regulate puddles.

Keep quiet and ignore them.

If it's watershed into the Potomac and that flows into the Chesapeake Bay, then the Chesapeake Bay Commission folks may have a say.

A lot near my property was developed. It was very low compared to the surrounding land and it retained water in storms. If the rain was sufficient, the water overflowed into a ditch, then a creek, then a lake, then a spill over into a marsh, then into a tributary, then into the James River, then into the Chesapeake Bay. Before that lot could be developed, the CBC required a study to make sure there was no impact to the Bay. It was declared a wetland and only partial development was permitted.

I'm not really sure how CBC is involved directly, but their rules halted the proposed development of what was really just about an acre of really wet woodland.

Here in WV the requirements for a permit is that the dam may not be higher than 25’ and the pond may not be bigger than 3/4 of an acre. Now the stream gets a little tricky.

Like was mentioned before,
Since you have the materials on hand,
I would use that as a base and save some for a concrete overflow. To be safe, I would excavate the drainage bottom and use the dirt to build an earthen dam. 25 degree slope on the side walls and an 6' flat top. As long as your spillway is concrete and of sufficient size for the maximum flow, this would be safe. 25 degrees from horizontal, not vertical. It takes tons of material to make a dam that lasts.

Nuh uh, not if I throw some tires in there!

LOL

WIthout a key way on bottom/sides I cannot see it holding through the wet season and that's without calculating the drainage area. 2000' linear could suprise one on the amount of land it drains...

Even then, I'd likely want a second "wall" of blocks below and the space in between filled with gravel/dirt.

After the dam breaks and sumbuddy down stream has mud and tires flowing in their backdoor.

My dam is exactly 25’ high with a core trench below it 12’ deep….. and yes I did get a visit from the DEP. 3 of them showed up and measured to see if I was within the parameters! Like was said, without a core trench (key way) it won’t hold. You’ll also need a spillway in order to keep the water from going over top of the dam and washing it out. What a great project if you can pull it off! I’d find a legal way to block off the stream and build a big one!


Core trench

Beautiful

Nice!

Nice job, looks great and a real dam!

Yeah but how many tires are in there?

Beat me to it!

The tires already were in the stream.

Thanks for the comments. It may or may not work, and I can improvise as I go along. If it fails, I will go to plan B.

Keep in mind that it’s going to be a fairly small pond—half of which already is being retained by the existing dam made from logs and clay.

It’s going to hold about as much water, I think, as two of these:

You are breaking federal CWA laws....

Let alone flooding liabilities and water rights laws downstream. I'd undo it all and take pictures off internet....

But if you keep doing it, I'd keep very very quiet and still take pictures off the net....

It's a sad statement that anybody here gives a "dam" about federal law on this.

What I was thinkin.

Your place is sic !

👍🏼🦫

PS

I gotta get me the same zero turn mower you bought...Inventory sucks unfortunately

If you think I give a damn you are mistaken. I did federal permitting to allow mines to operate for many many years and dealt with the [bleep]'s who regulate what this gentleman is tying to do. I hate them and wish they'd all burn in hell. But don't get on their bad side, trust me.

Simply a fair warning.

My Fairbanks bro cleared woods for fields which started permafrost melting , land settling, contours changing "wetlands" developing on what had been forest.

He had no end of trouble with EPA and those fuggin "wetlands".

This?:
https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/COMPS-2975/pdf/COMPS-2975.pdf

Actually I used about 10 tires with bricks in them for cover. They’re in about 5’ of water.
I think you can see some of them here before it completely filled. 😃

“’Dam’ … does not include— … a barrier described in subparagraph (A) that— (I) is 6 feet or less in height regardless of storage capacity; or (II) has a storage capacity at the maximum water storage elevation that is 15 acre-feet or less regardless of height …”

How'd they find out?

I like the pics and the story.

Yea I ended up driving about 4 hours away to get it. They are out there but you have to look. There’s a cub zero turn Facebook page I used to locate one.

Call a local civil engineer . I admire your determination

Around here all you'd have to do is wait a bit and the beavers would show up and do it for you.

Of course it wouldn't be where you wanted it!

Read the basic Clean Water Act, Section 404, as well as your regional guidebook published by the US Army Corps of Engineers (aka Communists)....

You said concrete or cement blocks right?
Submerged cinder blocks are not worth much as the have a lot of void space. It is always amusing to watch someone try and use them to anchor a mooring...even an inflatable ball buoy will usually float them away...

Per the OP
"I bought about 18,000 lbs of solid concrete blocks."

nosy bastids apparently

Is MarineHawk in cuffs yet ?

LOL

🦫

He’s gonna be fugked once the neighbors find out and he gets a visit from someone with a .gov email address.

Out West we’re all a smidge touchy about water, it’s source, and why it just suddenly dried up ?

Walk upstream.....WTF ?


🦫

The state just drug 'Sparky' out
RIP MH

1.2 miles to a major river. You’re dealing with “Waters of the US”. You Don’t wand to deal with waters of the US. The Army Corps of engineers will not find this funny in any way, shape or form. Lastly, you have to key in that dam and slope the face in such a way that the weight of the material is greater than the hydraulic forces. You would need to construct the overflow so it won’t erode away. You’re doing neither of these things so it’ll blow out most ricky ticky. Run Forrest, run!

If you hurry, you might be able to get a refund on those cinder blocks.

What you can do is to make a pond off to the side and flow water into it without getting shot… especially if it’s an over flow off a exiting pond.. then you are just making a secondary holding pond.

Mr. Toddly should be your consultant. I'd hire him.

Marinehawk, I know from your previous posts you have purchased land out in rural areas (Colorado?). Have you ever lived there? Not to be a dick, but legit lived rural? As in depended on neighbors and talked to them etc etc?

Unless you're a beaver or geological / civil engineer, I think this is, well, not going to end as you hope. You've created a liability for yourself if something goes wrong with it. And because you're basically just dumping material in a stream it is eventually going to fail. Hopefully not catastrophically. Do you get downpours ever? Once it overflows and starts cutting a channel into the hillside next to the dam, it's over.

I agree, she's too hot for you.

Anybody that's ever had ta deal with .gov bout water is gonna wave him off on this.

IF the dam gets discovered on a wetland, .gov's gonna come knockin.

And if they do, they ain't gonna say, "tear that thing down in a couple weekends and email me pics that it's done."

It'll be a possible G flavored fine, daily fines, engineering studies ta return it to its previous condition, and an engineering report to confirm that alla those tires has been removed.

It's not as simple as gettin caught and tearin it out.

Do what ya wanna do, but it's always helpful ta be able ta calculate the risk.

Guy across the river from me got busted through satellite imagery for drying up "wetlands" when he disced a pasture and put a center pivot in.

Around here, if you impound water, you have to have a storage water right. Heck, I have to have a storage right for my fish raceways....... But someone already mentioned that out here in the west, we're a little touchy about water.

Foundation? Washing under is a bigger problem than either side or over top.

Sounds like a fun project. But, I think you would be wise to not hang your hat on a long term life of this project. I designed dams, boat ramps, bulkheads and many other water related structures during my career. The one constant that could always be depended on was that Mother Nature, in the guise of the destructive power of moving water, never fails to surprise you.

An investigation of the drainage area (which would have to include the drainage area of the farm pond mentioned that is 2000' upstream) would give you a much better idea of peak flows during storms of record. Keying your structure into the stream bed and both banks (as has been mentioned) will give a much higher chance of longevity. An armored spillway is a must and the use of filter fabric under the materials woud be a tremendous benefit.

good luck with it and hoe you end up with something you'll enjoy. Kinda wish I lived close enough to drop by and help out. Also, congrats on the new abode...and the gal looks like a keeper!

Dam'n up at stream could getcha in a heap'ah trouble , hell back in 74' i did 90 days in county lock-up

Elaboration would be nice. Or sounds like good potential for a new thread.

What?? I thought it was his daughter and she really likes shooting guns!

As well you should!! "You must have done something good in a past life!" Nice looking place. Attractive lady who seems to like you. (No accounting for taste, right? :)) Fine lookin' guns. And a worthy truck.

I don't know a lot about concrete dams 'cept where not to build 'em. My dad was a civil engineer. At about age 8 he, er, "instructed" (lectured) me on the ins and outs of making perfect concrete .. how much sand, how much cement, how much gravel, how to mix it, and then how to harden it by keeping a bit of water on it when it is setting up .. 28 days worth I think. He was *not* [bleep] amused the day the rain started and the ditch my dam had diverted came across the road and through the house. Not sure why he was so mad, I was following directions .. as demonstrated by how long it took him out there in the rain with a sledge hammer trying to break it up but based on the ass whuppin' I got he was not amused.

Ideally you'd clear off the overburden down to bedrock. That doesn't seem to be a good option. You might try driving piling ... perhaps steel pipe ... a few feet into the dirt under the base of the dam, then fill that with concrete, and then build the dam over the top. If you can't seal the bottom 'cause the soil is both too deep and too porous, perhaps consider scraping off as much dirt as possible, build the dam but let the water run through (drains), then line the pond with pond liner (kind of like heavy inner tube sheets) and wrap it up the face of the dam. Leave a good drain pipe through the dam face so you can open it up and flush out whatever mud builds up every few years. Dunno .. just thinkin' out loud.

Best of luck ... and congratulations! Looks like you're living the dream.

Tom

Can't we just throw some tires in there?

Good Neighbors are SO IMPORTANT!

I know of a guy that tried to put a “air bnb” privately stocked trout stream for a mile or so on his land and had a dam of sorts that water could flow threw problem was right above his property was special regulation native brook trout waters fly fishing only catch n release the game warden frowned upon his endeavor

Yep. I’ve seen this first hand.

My neighbors, upstream and downstream, are on board. They're happy that I will let them fish the pond. They're both non-commie outdoorsmen and on great terms. My upstream neighbor, whose house is still being built, told his 14-yr-old son in my presence that "we should build a dam too!" My downstream neighbor, with 5.5. acres, may go on my Colorado elk hunt in late Oct. He's already drank a fair amount of my vodka, and me, his beer.

It's a Jeep Thing.






You Would Not Understand.

EPA visited yet? They get a little bent when you modify waterways. I like your idea though.

I recall reading about a family that created a pond, diverted the creek to it and back out. Seems I recall a fine of something like 18,000 a day? Seems crazy but that’s what I recall. I have 2 creeks on my property that flow into Puget Sound. One was damned up years ago but washed out. I’d love to dam it back up but won’t risk it.

https://thenewamerican.com/epa-fine...-date-for-building-pond-on-his-property/

Might want to read this. The EPA has an endless supply of money, (ours) that they can pay lawyers with.

He won, they lost. https://www.foxnews.com/politics/wy...ines-beats-epa-in-battle-over-stock-pond

To be the voice of dissent, I think this sounds like a great idea. I’m sure dropping unopened sacks of concrete in there to form the end of the dam that can’t be excavated would work fine. Post up pics as progress is made!

How large a pond in acres do you expect?It can`t be very large if you only own 5 acres.

I’m glad to see that.

Good luck with it, seems you've made every attempt to check out the local regs regarding the building of the pond(s).

I don't know WV regs regarding the fish stocking though, did you check with your Fish and Game folks or whatever they are called there? Some get a bit sketchy about "bait bucket" stockings of ponds/creeks especially a short distance upstream from a major public waterway.

I am concerned, like others, that your project may last only a short time due to lack of engineering. It may turn out fine and last for decades too. One never knows about water, other than that it does find a way to screw things up tremendously when it decides to.

You're prepared to mink, herons, kingfishers, raccoons, etc getting after your fish, right?

Have fun with the new place.

I thought the gov't was out of money. Innint dat why dey wanna raisa da debt ceiling?

The place I hunt has a couple of springs that run out of the side of the hills. The largest runs about 350 yards to a creek that is seasonal. Dry in the summer. The spring runs about a foot wide and a couple inches deep going down to the creek. My buddy wanted to dam it to make a lake. He Checked with government agencies on what it would require for a permit. They wouldn't allow it because the spring created a footwide natural wetland. He argued that he would be creating a much bigger wetland. They said rules is rules. This was in Arkansas where there is lots of water and environmental rules are lax.

Clearly.

I’ve learned over the years that water is a very destructive and unforgiving force and many under-appreciate the power it has.

On the side that is hard rock I would drill holes in it and run 1" rebar into leaving what you need sticking out to form up around and fill the form with concrete to have something solid on that side then work your way across along the bottom doing the same thing. If you only plan to make it 6 feet or less tall you shouldn't have much of a problem and after you build your dam back fill it with dirt for further reinforcement.

Where do the tires and logs go?

It's a big nono where I'm at too. We noticed one of our ponds getting low, to find out that our neighbors redirected a waterflow for some mining work. Gonna leave it be for now, but it will be fixed when done or else.

I'd be ticked off if I was on the other end and some blocked a waterflow through my property.

In your twat

Odd no matter what once the pond fills up whatever flow is there keeps on going somewhere.